Did Ruby Intend to Kill LHO?

[Tim Gratz]

I'm sure all Forum members are familiar with the Dalllas police officer (county sheriff or Dallas PO, I do not recall) who received a phone call early in the morning of Nov 24, 1963 warning that LHO was to be shot. He later stated he was certain it was Jack Ruby's voice.

Was Ruby a reluctant killer? It seems strange that if Ruby had really intended to kill LHO he did not go for a head shot. People do survive shots to the stomach.

I also seem to recall reading that the attending nedical personnel gave inapprpriate resuscitation to LHO: i.e., a resuscitation method not indicated for someone with a stomach wound.

Wonder if anyone has an opinion whether Ruby had decided to botch the killing because he feared the electric chair. Or was the location of the bullet wound sufficient to guarantee death?

[Antti Hynonen]

Tim Gratz Posted Today, 08:08 AM

  I'm sure all Forum members are familiar with the Dalllas police officer (county sheriff or Dallas PO, I do not recall) who received a phone call early in the morning of Nov 24, 1963 warning that LHO was to be shot. He later stated he was certain it was Jack Ruby's voice.

Was Ruby a reluctant killer? It seems strange that if Ruby had really intended to kill LHO he did not go for a head shot. People do survive shots to the stomach.

I also seem to recall reading that the attending nedical personnel gave inapprpriate resuscitation to LHO: i.e., a resuscitation method not indicated for someone with a stomach wound.

Wonder if anyone has an opinion whether Ruby had decided to botch the killing because he feared the electric chair. Or was the location of the bullet wound sufficient to guarantee death?

Tim, since you asked: I'd say Ruby's task was to silence Oswald. Recalling statements by the witnesses such as the police officer who attended to Ruby in Jail that evening, said that immediately after the Oswald shooting Ruby was nervous, sweating and seemed to be very restless all together.

Moments later the word came out that Oswald had expired in the OR. This cop told Ruby something to the effect of: Well Ruby, looks like you are going to get the chair, Oswald died of his wounds. After this statement, Ruby became calm, cool, collected and seemed very much relaxed compared to his state earlier.

My interpretation is that due to his behavior and actions, (including the shooting of Oswald) Ruby was assigned the task of silencing Oswald. Although he wasn't a professional killer (he probably didn't think of shooting him in the head), he was able to carry out the task after all. Whether his motivation was money, threats or whether he "owed someone big time", I don't know. Something, or someone drove him to do it. Furthermore, he had a little help from his friend(s) in the DPD. By this I mean access to the garage and DPD HQ etc.

[Steve Thomas]

Tim,

I'm sure all Forum members are familiar with the Dalllas police officer (county sheriff or Dallas PO, I do not recall) who received a phone call early in the morning of Nov 24, 1963 warning that LHO was to be shot.  He later stated he was certain it was Jack Ruby's voice.

I remember seeing that in The Men Who Killed Kennedy series, but I don't believe it happened. The calls apparently were received at the FBI office and maybe one at the sheriff's office.

Here's what the law enforcement officers said in their WC testimony. Frazier and Talbert were Captains in the Patrol Division. Frazier had the 11:00 PM to 7:00 AM shift, Talbert had the 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM shift. Notice that neither Frazier, nor Talbert make any mention of a call coming in directly to the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. HUBERT - Have you been given any warning by the FBI that they had received a message, or had the message been received, I think, by your office, that some attempt would be made by a group to injure Oswald?

Mr. DECKER - That's along 12:30 or 1 o'clock in the morning (on the 24th) -- that's when that occurred… Anyway, this thing you are talking about came to me from my office man, Sergeant McCoy, and he had received a call from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Milt Newsom, who stated to him that this boy was going to be killed and that he had good information. He relayed that message to me at my home, and I asked him had the city been notified and he said, "Yes."

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 24th of November, about in the middle of the shift there, about 3 or 3:30 or 3:45 that morning, I understand you received a telephone call from an FBI agent, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; Mr. Newsom, I believe his name is.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how it came to you? How did the call come to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Newsom called me and said he had received a threat from some man to the effect that a group of men, I believe he indicated they had 100 or 200, I don't recall the exact number, were going to attempt to kill Oswald that day sometime. That he didn't want the FBI, Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's office injured in any way. That was the reason for the call. So, Mr. Newsom called me and related that story to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard any of that news of that sort from another source?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Deputy Cox, or Coy in the sheriffs--

Mr. FRAZIER. I talked to that man later on in the morning after Mr. Newsom called me. But I don't know the name, whether it was Coy, or Cox, but he indicated that Sheriff Decker wanted to talk to Chief Curry in regards to moving Oswald, so, I, in turn then attempted to contact Chief Curry by telephone and his line was busy.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you spoke to Mr. Newsom from the FBI whether Mr. Newsom told you that the Dallas Sheriff's Office had received a similar call to the one he was relating to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I don't recall that. He possibly--he could have said it, but I do not recall it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When the gentlemen from the sheriff's office, either Cox or Coy, called you that was simply about when the transfer was going to take place, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. I assume that is what it was. He indicated to me that Decker wanted to get ahold of Chief Curry and move him as soon as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that man mention to you about the receipt of any threats such as Newsom had told you about?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the second threat you had received that morning? In other words, the threat came from two sources, so far as you know. You heard it from the FBI, and this man from the sheriff's office?

Mr. FRITZ. During the night on Saturday night, I had a call at my home from uniformed captain, Captain Frazier, I believe is his name, he called me out at home and told me they had had some threats and he had to transfer Oswald…I have always felt that that was Ruby who made that call, I may be wrong, but he was out late that night and I have always felt he might have made that call...

Captain TALBERT. The morning of the 24th I reported when--I gave my time of duty as 7 to 3. Actually, we report about an hour early so that we can prepare the platoon, or any revision in the platoon that we have to make. So, at approximately 6 o'clock, I reported to our office and relieved Captain Frazier.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time that you relieved Captain Frazier, did he convey any information to you?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he said?

Captain TALBERT. Said he had a communication with Sheriff Decker and Mr. Newsom, with the FBI, and both were anxious to transfer Oswald at the time. Transfer him immediately to the county jail, and that he had been unable to contact the chief due to a phone malfunction. That he couldn't call him.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then with reference to the transfer?

Captain TALBERT. Continued his efforts to contact the chief through--going through the telephone exchange. I wanted to contact him by telephone. He had contacted Captain Fritz with the information from both Mr. Newsom and the sheriff, and Captain Fritz said he couldn't transfer him until the chief authorized it.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to the chief?

Captain TALBERT. I repeated the conversation that Frazier had told me that the sheriff had told him, and also Mr. Newsom had told him about two calls received by the FBI office during the night. Both by men speaking in a calm voice and both conveyed the same message that before Oswald reached the county jail "A hundred of us will see that he is dead." And the request by Sheriff Decker, and Mr. Newsom, that he be transferred immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your understanding that Newsom had received a message twice?

Captain TALBERT. His office. Not Mr. Newsom personally. His office.

Chief CURRY - That's right. We felt that if an attempt was made on him, that it would be made by a group of people. Some of the threats that had been made during the night was, "this is a group of one hundred and we will take the prisoner before you get him to the county jail," so we really expected trouble, if we had trouble, from a group of people and not an individual.

You asked:

Was Ruby a reluctant killer? It seems strange that if Ruby had really intended to kill LHO he did not go for a head shot. People do survive shots to the stomach.

According to Detective Clardy, who spoke to Ruby in the immediate aftermath, Ruby intended to get off three shots, but didn't have time:

Detective CLARDY. I am not sure who asked him the question. I believe it was Detective Archer, and asked him in some way, "Did you intend to"--or, "Did you think you could kill the man with one shot?" And he said, "I intended to get off three shots." Said, "I didn't think that I could be stopped before I got off three shots." But, that, I----

Steve Thomas

[Nic Martin]

The main question to me being, WHY would it be Ruby? JUST because he could get into the DPD? I don't think the mafia alone would honestly trust a club owner with killing a guy they think could implicate them in the murder of the President. Ruby wasn't a mob gunman. He was a glorified gunrunner, so why would they mob trust him? Why would they RISK Oswald's survivial?

This has always irritated me. If the mafia was all this revolved around, they could have shot Oswald from a distance and the murder would have never been solved.

If you make a comment that the American public must disbelieve all theories of a conspiracy, and some unknown club owner with vague links to the mafia shoots your prime suspect, closing the idea of a trial for the murder of the President, all questions seem asked & answered about the execution of LHO. The only reason for not going with a mob hitman was if they needed a scapegoat then and there, to close all doors before they even opened - which, with comments previously made, makes the most sense.

[James Richards]

An interesting aspect amongst all of this is the support Ruby received; not just from the public who wanted to see LHO drawn and quartered, but from the media. This editorial below stands as testimony to that.

James

Edited December 31, 2004 by James Richards

[Jim Root]

Tim

I personally feel that Oswald had to be silenced because of his backround (ie his trip to Russia involvement with U-2 etc.)

I think Antti's comment, "Tim, since you asked: I'd say Ruby's task was to silence Oswald. Recalling statements by the witnesses such as the police officer who attended to Ruby in Jail that evening, said that immediately after the Oswald shooting Ruby was nervous, sweating and seemed to be very restless all together.

Moments later the word came out that Oswald had expired in the OR. This cop told Ruby something to the effect of: Well Ruby, looks like you are going to get the chair, Oswald died of his wounds. After this statement, Ruby became calm, cool, collected and seemed very much relaxed compared to his state earlier.

My interpretation is that due to his behavior and actions, (including the shooting of Oswald) Ruby was assigned the task of silencing Oswald. Although he wasn't a professional killer (he probably didn't think of shooting him in the head), he was able to carry out the task after all. Whether his motivation was money, threats or whether he "owed someone big time", I don't know. Something, or someone drove him to do it. Furthermore, he had a little help from his friend(s) in the DPD. By this I mean access to the garage and DPD HQ etc." is telling.

A few weeks ago I began a Topic about the two "reporters" with Oswald at the DPD the night of the assassination. As of this time I have had no response but thought I would provide this additional information.

What are your thoughts about these portions of the Warren Report. I heard a great deal of the newsreel tape was distroyed but I have never seen the two men with "badges," such as are discribed by John Rutledge.

"At 9:00 p.m. he (Ruby) telphoned Ralph Paul but was unable to persuade Paul to join him at synagogue services." (WC Report, Pg 338)

"From his apartment, Ruby drove to Temple Shearith Israel, arriving near the end of a 2-hour service which had begun at 8 p.m." (WC Report, Pg 339)

"Ruby is known to have made his way, by about 11:30 p.m., to the third floor of the Dallas Police Department..." (WC Report, Pg 339)

'I saw Jack and two out-of-state reporters, whom I did not know, leave the elevator door and proceed toward those television cameras, to go around the corner where Captain Fritz's office was. Jack walked between them. these two out-of-state reporters had big press cards pinned on their coats, great big red ones, I think they said "President Kennedy's Visit to Dallas-Press", or something like that. And Jack didn't have one, but the man on either side of him did. and they walked pretty rapidly from the elevator area past the policeman, and Jack was bent over like this-writting on a piece of paper, and talking to one of the reporters, and pointing to something on the peice of paper, he was kind of hynched over." Newsman John Rutledge (WC Report Pg 340)

"Detective Augustus M. Eberhardt, who also recalled that he first saw Ruby earlier in the evening, said Ruby carried a note pad and professed to be a translator for the Israeli press." (WC Report Pg. 342)

He accompanied the newsmen to the basement to observe Oswald. His presence at the midnight news conference is established by television tapes and by at least 12 witnesses." (WC Report Pg. 342)

When questioned about his (Ruby) lie detector test this information is gleaned from the administrator of the test:

(Testimony of Bell P. Herndon)

Mr. Specter.

Will movement or speaking cause a variation in the tracings ordinarily, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. Herndon.

Yes. Body movements or speaking any phrase or sentence would certainly cause changes in the physiological patterns as displayed on the polygraph. I made notation of that, however, and that explains the changes On question No. 2, Mr. Ruby did show a significant drop in the relative blood pressure. This question pertained to: "Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue? I asked him about this question later when he responded "No," and I noticed a physiological change. He advised that there was some man by the name of John Rutledge, and he made an association with proceedings at the trial which I have reason to believe this gentleman, John Rutledge, differed with what Ruby stated as to when he went to the synagogue.Due to the nature of this change, however, it is possible that it was caused by a body motion that I failed to detect during the actual response.

I notice that the cardio pen dropped all the way down and hit what we call the limit screws. This frequently is caused by a sudden rapid shift in his body position, and this change could have been caused by a body movement.

With regard to the other relevant questions in this series, question 4, question 6, and question 8, there was no significant deviation from his normal physiological patterns. (Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. XIV - Page 594)

It seems Jack Ruby may have been nervous about answering questions that delt with Rutledge's, who identified him with the "two out of state" newsmen, testimony and his trip to the synagogue. This particular question created a "a physiological change" or was it just body motion that Herndon, " failed to detect during the actual response"?

Ruby and the part he plays in the death of Oswald are facts. Why and who had influence in his actions is tricky. The two "out of state" reporters are, in my opinion, important to this issue but seldom discussed!

Jim Root

[Nic Martin]

Well, I personally think it shows how Ruby expected to be treated was by him saying, "You know me, I'm Jack Ruby!" in City Hall.

Maybe Ruby took such great pride in this thing to do for the "big" boys, he thought they'd protect him. Then when Oswald's carried off on the stretcher, and when he realizes he only got off one shot and there's a risk that Oswald would survive, the threat of failure would hang over his head, which explains his being upset directly after the shooting, and then calm when they told him Oswald had died. Maybe everything's being read too much into, and Oswald had some suicide pact. Who the hell knows. Anything in this case is about as logical as the next thing you can throw out there, and no one has any idea if it's true or not.

The HSCA report on his polygraph notes that Dr. William Beavers had examined Ruby 9-10 times, and noted him as a "psychotic depressive," yet on the day of the examination, Beavers felt the "depressed" element had been diminished. But the report also notes that Ruby asked his attorney to leave the room and the District Attorney ( who was asking for the death sentence ) to stay in the room. ... Think about that. Ruby is quoted as saying to his lawyer, "As a matter of fact, I prefer Bill Alexander to you, you're supposed to be my friend." Herndon even botched Ruby's "control" questions on the polygraph, so who the hell knows if he was lying or not, if they can't even get the CONTROL questions right?

Gah, I'm jumping all over the place - lack of sleep does that to you.

[John Simkin]

Thomas G. Buchanan published Who Killed Kennedy? in the UK in 1964. He was the first author to suggest that JFK had been killed on the orders of Texas oilmen because they were concerned about the oil depletion allowance. I am not sure it was ever published in the USA.

Buchanan also claims that the fatal bullet had been fired by Jack Ruby from the railroad bridge. Buchanan also argues that Tippit was also part of the conspiracy. It had been his job to kill Oswald as he fled to Ruby’s apartment. This is an interesting theory as Oswald did appear to be heading towards Ruby’s apartment after the assassination.

This was something Norman Redlich (J. Lee Rankin’s special assistant on the Warren Commission) believed. It got him into a lot of trouble and Gerald Ford asked J. Edgar Hoover to investigate Redlich. This led to a smear campaign against Redlich by Karl E. Mundt who said: "We want a report from the Commission which Americans will accept as factual, which will put to rest all the ugly rumors now in circulation and which the world will believe. Who but the most gullible would believe any report if it were written in part by persons with Communist connections?"

To keep his job Redlich was forced to back down. In fact, he now became the leading opponent of the theory. This is what Seth Kantor had to say about it (Who Was Jack Ruby?):

It was Norman Redlich who put the ax to the Belin Theory. Redlich had a great deal of control over what would appear in the Warren Report. Redlich, remember, had survived the communist witch-hunt aimed at him on Capitol Hill three months earlier when the granting of his security clearance had been threatened. And now Redlich wanted to keep from stirring up any more problems for Earl Warren, so he argued that Belin had come up with nothing more than supposition, which had no place in the Warren Report. Belin argued in return that the Commission had a public obligation to disclose the existence of Oswald's possible escape plan, even if it were removed from chapter six of the Report and relegated to the 31-page section in the appendix of the Report, entitled "Speculations and Rumors." But Redlich instead saw to it that the Warren Report made no attempt to explain why Oswald, the fast-moving young man on the lam, appeared to be heading directly toward Jack Ruby's apartment with a gun. Instead, the Warren Report simply said, "There is no evidence that Oswald knew where Ruby lived."