LHO Nothing But a Patsy?

[Tim Gratz]

Some people believe that LHO was, as he himself proclaimed, nothing but a patsy.

Other people believe that whether or not LHO did any shooting, he participated in the conspiracy to some extent.

Without delving into everyone's "theory of the case" I thought it would be interesting to get your feeling if LHO was in fact nothing but a patsy.

I have not yet reached a conclusion (which is one reaon I would like to hear YOUR opinions).

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Edited January 2, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[John Simkin]

Have you read this?

http://scribblguy.50megs.com/patsy1.htm

[Tim Gratz]

Some people believe that LHO was, as he himself proclaimed, nothing but a patsy.

Other people believe that whether or not LHO did any shooting, he participated in the conspiracy to some extent.

Without delving into everyone's "theory of the case" I thought it would be interesting to get your feeling if LHO was in fact nothing but a patsy.

I have not yet reached a conclusion (which is one reaon I would like to hear YOUR opinions).

--------------------

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Replying to myself(?)

Maybe I should broaden this topic to: who do you think LHO really was.

I have tried to formulate some of the possibilities below, and would appreciate the comments of the Forum members.

(1) Oswald had no associations with any intelligence agencies but just liked to “play on the fringes”. He was nothing but a patsy.

(2) Before he left for the Soviet Union, Oswald was affiliated with U.S. intelligence (either CIA or military intelligence) and it was in that capacity that he participated in the assassination.

(3) Before he left for the Soviet Union, Oswald was affiliated with U.S. intelligence (either CIA or military intelligence) and he was made a patsy by people who knew of or suspected his association with U.S. intelligence.

(4) Before he left for the Soviet Union, Oswald was affiliated with U.S. intelligence (either CIA or military intelligence) but he was made a patsy by people who did not know or suspect his association with U.S. intelligence.

(5) Before he left for the Soviet Union, Oswald was affiliated with U.S. intelligence (either CIA or military intelligence) but in the Soviet Union he was recruited by Soviet intelligence and it was in his capacity as a double agent that he participated in the assassination.

(6) Before he left for the Soviet Union, Oswald was affiliated with U.S. intelligence (either CIA or military intelligence) but in the Soviet Union he was recruited by Soviet intelligence; he was a patsy and the conspirators were aware that he was in fact a double agent.

(7) Before he left for the Soviet Union, Oswald was affiliated with U.S. intelligence (either CIA or military intelligence) but in the Soviet Union he was recruited by Soviet intelligence; he was a patsy but the conspirators were not aware that he was in fact a double agent.

Generalizing, LHO was either associated with an intelligence agency or he was not. If he was associated with an intelligence agency, it may have either been American or Soviet. If he was associated with an intelligence agency and he in fact participated in the assassination, he presumably did so on behalf of or with the support of the agency (or a faction therein) with which he was associated. If he was associated with an intelligence agency, but was a set-up patsy, the true conspirators may or may not have known of his association with the intelligence agency. If they knew, he was probably made a patsy precisely because of his association with that agency.

Does it help us further our analysis of the case to try to sort out these possibilities? And have I left any out (other than that LHO was a "lone nut" but I assume most of us do not consider the LN scenario has any probability)?

[Jim Root]

Tim

You left out #8:

Before he left for the Soviet Union, oswald was used by US intellience agencies in a capacity that could be discribed as Angleton's "Orchid" man. He himself not realizing that he was being used to pass information to the Soviets.

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diary/angleton.htm

Jim Root

[Tim Gratz]

Tim

You left out #8:

Before he left for the Soviet Union, oswald was used by US intellience agencies in a capacity that could be discribed as Angleton's "Orchid" man.  He himself not realizing that he was being used to pass information to the Soviets.

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diary/angleton.htm

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you elucidate further on this? How was LHO passing info (presumably, disinformation) to the Soviets? and, what information and to what purpose?

The link to the Epstein article was interesting. I want to post re the Nosenko matter, since I do not think it has been covered here in any detail.

[Jim Root]

Tim

I speculate that Oswald was identified by US intelligence agencies as a person who, in reality, actually wanted to go to the Soviet Union. By assigning him to a radar unit in Astugi, Japan, where U-2's were flying, information could be passed to the Soviets, that could be attributed to Oswald because of the position he held (I like the fact that Posner provides information on this in Case Closed). By providing him with "help" in traveling to the Soviet Union (see Serendipity) the US would be allowing him to be examined by the Soviets. If they, the Soviets, believed he was not a US agent the information that had been gleaned from him becomes believable. A perfect "Orchid Man". Untill.....

Two problems arise. Francis Gary Powers lives when his U-2 goes down and Lee Harvey Oswald decides to return to the US.

When you look into Nosenko cross reference his contact with the CIA to Oswald's receiving his exit visa from the Soviet Union and departure. A remarkable coincidence in timing. You might also want to cross reference General Edwin Walker's "Pro Blue" program and dimise to the State Departments handling of Oswald's original contact with the US Embassy that begins his process of returning to the United States. Coincidence?

Jim Root

[Dawn Meredith]

LHO was a patsy. He was also intelligence. FBI (documented when he was arrested agent #179, $200.00 payment), but likely many other branches of US intel. Probably a double agent, but again whatever his US handlers told him to do, probably passed on U-2 info.

He may have had an interest in Marxism, but the FPFC was a one man op. in New Orleans (LHO), while run out of Guy Bannister's office (other side of building) on Camp St.

I believe LHO did exactly what he was told to do by his handlers, ie fight in New Orleans, up to bringing curtain rods to work that day.

The fact that Hoover wrote a memo about "someone using (his) id" in 61 (62?) shows more intel. connections.

Ultimately I believe LHO was a patriotic American, highly intelligent, therefore useful as an agent any many levels, but who had respect for JFK and NO motive to kill him. That he got to live long enough to say "I am a patsy" is a big clue.

Dawn

[Nancy Eldreth]

LHO knew Connelly very well.

He wrote to him, from Russia.

Hoover kept the letter and I take it never put it out, kept it Top Secret.

I have read this letter and have it.

Oswald was wanting to come home.

Seems like Oswald was made patsy from even prior to this letter.

Set up to go to Russia,

Set up to marry fast and get into a family way.

So what was the point ot Oswald to have to go to Russia?

What was the point to him having to marry so fast and to a Russian?

Why a letter to Connelly and why so convient for Connelly to be in the car with

JFK on 11/22/63?

Was it to make it look like Oswald missed his target and hit Connely instead?

I have a feeling it was?

So because of all of this I do feel Oswald was used as a patsy and was used way before 11/22/63.

[Jack White]

LHO knew Connelly very well.

He wrote to him, from Russia.

Hoover kept the letter and I take it never put it out, kept it Top Secret.

I have read this letter and have it.

Oswald was wanting to come home.

Seems like Oswald was made patsy from even prior to this letter.

Set up to go to Russia,

Set up to marry fast and get into a family way.

So what was the point ot Oswald to have to go to Russia?

What was the point to him having to marry so fast and to a Russian?

Why a letter to Connelly and why so convient for Connelly to be in the car with

JFK on 11/22/63?

Was it to make it look like Oswald missed his target and hit Connely instead?

I have a feeling it was?

So because of all of this I do feel Oswald was used as a patsy and was used way before 11/22/63.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LHO's letter to CONNALLY, THE SECRETARY OF THE NAVY, was regarding his UNDESIRABLE

DISCHARGE from the Marine Corps, which he thought was unfair. Connally, as Navy

Secretary, was in charge of the Marines. There is no evidence that Connally and Oswald

were acquainted.

Jack

Edited January 2, 2005 by Jack White

[Jim Root]

Tim

The "patsy" coment, please help me out here. Although usually taken as simply, "I am only a patsy" (Mae Brussul) wew also find "I'm a patsy" or I'm just a patsy" being used as the quote. I believe the quote comes from the notebook of Seth Kantor, a Washington news correspondant. Was the actual quote recorded?

I understand that the famous quote originated from Oswald's answer to the question:

"Did you shoot the President?"

Answer: "No, they've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union...I'M JUST A PATSY!"

Was Oswald the "patsy" that had been sent to the Soviet Union? Was Oswald speaking of some "mission" to Russia that had led to arrest in Dallas on November 22, 1963?

Jim Root

[Nancy Eldreth]

I hope this letter downloads trying too.

[Al Carrier]

IMO,

Oswald's work in N.O. was a dead giveaway that he was a small time operative for some agency within the government, and most likely partly controlled by the FBI. The man, when working earned roughly 1.25 an hour, yet set up this so-called branch of the FPCC out of a anti-Castro supporter's office (Guy Bannister) who is former? FBI. He then offered his service to the Anti-Castro group and was then involved in a so-called street fight where he taunter Brungier and never threw a punch. And then asked to speak with the FBI in jail.

This is the same man who purchased a rifle and revolver through mail order from businesses that were being investigated by the ATF.

The man was low level in my opinion and expendable for whoever had access to him and utilized him as the patsy. As far as his level of intelligence. Note how well he comes off in a rehearsed fashion in interviews and at the American Embassy in Moscow and then falls apart when he has to adlib.

Al

[Tim Gratz]

IMO,

Oswald's work in N.O. was a dead giveaway that he was a small time operative for some agency within the government, and most likely partly controlled by the FBI. The man, when working earned roughly 1.25 an hour, yet set up this so-called branch of the FPCC out of a anti-Castro supporter's office (Guy Bannister) who is former? FBI. He then offered his service to the Anti-Castro group and was then involved in a so-called street fight where he taunter Brungier and never threw a punch. And then asked to speak with the FBI in jail.

This is the same man who purchased a rifle and revolver through mail order from businesses that were being investigated by the ATF.

The man was low level in my opinion and expendable for whoever had access to him and utilized him as the patsy. As far as his level of intelligence. Note how well he comes off in a rehearsed fashion in interviews and at the American Embassy in Moscow and then falls apart when he has to adlib.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Al, do you think the persons who set up LHO as a patsy knew he was working for the government (thereby, perhaps, guarateeing a cover-up) or do you think they thougjt he was a nutty leftist and set him up to blame Castro? (If you have an opinion.)

It seems tautological that if we can figure out who set up LHO we will know who killed JFK.

[Al Carrier]

IMO,

Oswald's work in N.O. was a dead giveaway that he was a small time operative for some agency within the government, and most likely partly controlled by the FBI. The man, when working earned roughly 1.25 an hour, yet set up this so-called branch of the FPCC out of a anti-Castro supporter's office (Guy Bannister) who is former? FBI. He then offered his service to the Anti-Castro group and was then involved in a so-called street fight where he taunter Brungier and never threw a punch. And then asked to speak with the FBI in jail.

This is the same man who purchased a rifle and revolver through mail order from businesses that were being investigated by the ATF.

The man was low level in my opinion and expendable for whoever had access to him and utilized him as the patsy. As far as his level of intelligence. Note how well he comes off in a rehearsed fashion in interviews and at the American Embassy in Moscow and then falls apart when he has to adlib.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Al, do you think the persons who set up LHO as a patsy knew he was working for the government (thereby, perhaps, guarateeing a cover-up) or do you think they thougjt he was a nutty leftist and set him up to blame Castro? (If you have an opinion.)

It seems tautological that if we can figure out who set up LHO we will know who killed JFK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

I definately agree with your last sentence. The problem is finding who set him up as their would be many from various agencies who would know of LHO. I cannot fathom that he was not part of the "defector program" along with Air Force Non-Com John Glenn and at least nine others at the time he staged his defection. If this was the case, the Military Intel units would be aware of him, the State Dept. who loaned him the money to come home would be aware of him, the FBI who did not immediately debrief him would know of him. In N.O., if he was working for the FBI to find pro and anti-Castro supporters, which I believe he was, the Military Intel units would be aware of him again as would the CIA in the form of WH and SR so that they would not disrupt what they were all doing there.

IMO, there were many low level persons like LHO who were expendable and if one could catch breaks on what was going down in Chicago and Miami in the month of November, they would likely find some like LHO. I believe one is evident in Chicago.

Al

[Ron Ecker]

Oswald's U.S. intelligence background is obvious in that someone had to teach him the Russian language in a hurry. (The idea that he learned Russian so well from playing records in his Marine barracks, when he had time to do so, is ridiculous.) This would have logically been done at the Defense Language Institute in Monterrey CA, which is still the place where U.S. military and intelligence personnel go to learn a foreign language in a hurry. And indeed we know that he went there thanks to the WC executive session of 1/27/64, in which chief counsel Rankin refers to the WC's efforts "to find out what he (Oswald) studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages." What they found out (as if they couldn't guess) somehow did not find its way into the WC Report.

Ron