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J. D. Tippit: Was he part of the conspiracy?


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I have always been intrigued as to why Tippit was waiting at the Good Luck Oil station, or more importantly, who he was waiting for. What could have been so important that, only moments after the nearby assassination, would have required him to be there?

Given his subsequent actions, described earlier in this thread as "a man frantically looking for someone"; the erratic movements; the manic search of Andrews' car; running a stop sign; the failed telephone call at the Top Ten Records shop, and the then seemingly successful conclusion to that search at the corner of 10th and Patten surely points to only one thing: he was waiting at Gloco looking out for Oswald to pass over the Houston Street viaduct.

Bernie,

It's my contention that whoever it was at the Gloco station, it was not JD Tippit. This is in part substantiated by the fact that the time between when Tippit said that he was at Kiest and Bonnieview, to the time he said he was at 8th and Lancaster - eight minutes - is exactly the amount of time it takes to drive the most direct route - north on Bonnieview to where it curves and becomes 8th, then from there to Lancaster.

Remember that he wasn't told to go "code," meaning he went at a relatively normal speed, no lights or sirens.

Conversely, it only takes about 2½ minutes to go from where the Gloco station was to 8th and Lancaster, so either:

/a/ Tippit - who supposedly went racing out of the Gloco to points unknown - somehow managed to get to 8th & Lancaster in just the right amount of time as if he'd actually been at Kiest & Bonnieview, which in turn means either means he pre-planned lying about his original location and kept track of the time that had gone by since racing from the Gloco so he could report being where he "should" have been eight minutes later; or

/b/ Tippit was never at 8th & Lancaster, but again kept track of the time so he could report being somewhere he wasn't then either, but could do so in the right timeframe; or

/c/ it was someone else at the Gloco who resembled Tippit enough at a distance to be mistaken for him. There is evidence to suggest that that is exactly the case. If you search through well-known assassination-related photos, you will eventually see someone who fits that bill. Not exactly, but close enough to permit the mistake.

There was also another cop in Oak Cliff at that time, but I don't know what he looked like. He was not - or at least didn't report being - on or near Houston Street, however.

If so, logic dictates that the original plan would be for Tippit to identify a particular vehicle crossing the viaduct, a vehicle that Tippit may have been familiar with or had at least been briefed on, and then follow it to a pre-arranged rendezvous. It either didn't turn up, or he got there too late, or there was a forced change of plan – one of many that weekend – provoking the ensuing frantic search.

Given the well documented testimonies of an Oswald sighting climbing into a Nash Rambler close to the TSBD moments after the assassination, could this be the car Tippit was anxiously waiting for? It would certainly seem logical. Many researches suggest he was waiting for Oswald's taxi. But surely, whatever Tippit's role was you'd have thought his handlers would have given him better odds than that!

So this, in my opinion, lends credence to the sighting by Officer Craig and others of an Oswald escaping by the more conventional means of a get-away car as opposed to the risible public transport pantomime.

If indeed it was Oswald in that Nash Rambler, and Tippit's actions point further to that possibility this means we have a major discrepancy that can only be explained by the presence of two Oswalds. That or the entire section of the WC that deals with Oswald's journey (journey, not get-away!) from the TSBD to his room on Beckley - including the witness testimonies of all those who identified him at various points along the way, bus driver, taxi driver, former landlady etc - is a pack of lies from start to finish.

Tippit's supposed actions. You are adding too many "ifs" up to be able to reach a viable conclusion.

We can dismiss any amount of the conclusions drawn up by the WC but can we pick and choose which group of witnesses we want to believe or disbelieve on the basis of inconvenience to a pet theory? Is it in any way likely that the above WC witnesses were complicit in the conspiracy when they described Oswald's public transport movements? This is probably the same odds as the witnesses to the Nash Rambler get-away scenario, among others who placed 'Oswald' in all the 'wrong' locations, conspiring to create a red herring that may muddy the waters for the next half century. If just one witness from each of the alternative scenarios is correct we know for certain that there were indeed two Oswalds.

The record reflects that Tippit was at Kiest & Bonnieview at 12:46 and at 8th & Lancaster at 12:54, and dead by no later than 1:10. We are thus missing only between 11-14 minutes of his time. Is it possible that he was able to get to all the places it's claimed he was? Maybe, but it's hardly certain.

After reporting being at 8th & Lancaster at 12:54 and being told to "be at large for any emergency that comes in," he is next called sometime prior to 12:04, less than 10 minutes but does not respond. We can probably conclude at least that he was not in his car at that time, otherwise he would presumably have responded. If he was not in his car less than 10 minutes later, where was he?

The trip from the Top 10 Records store takes just a few minutes, about enough for him to have gotten from there to 10th & Patton by about the time he was shot ... which was absolutely certainly before 1:11, and most likely before 1:10. If the call came asking for his location at, say, 1:03 and he had just gotten out of his car, give him a minute in the store and five to get to 10th & Patton; if it came just before he got back into his car, then he gets an additional minute.

Since he was only "at large," there's no reason to think that he ran red lights, especially across the fairly busy Zangs and Beckley intersections, and also very possible that he was caught at red lights at either or both of them.

Pure conjecture but I often wonder whether Tippit eventually encountered the 'wrong' Oswald. The one he didn't know! That would certainly explain the initial casual nature of the meeting at 10th and Patten, only turning sinister as Tippit's suspicions are raised during the course of the conversation, when something just didn't quite ring right.

Well, first of all, there is no real indication that Tippit knew Oswald, and likewise none that he was actually looking for Oswald either. Even if he did and was, why pick that particular part of Oak Cliff, and moreover, why stop into Top 10 to call him? It's not like Lee had a cell phone with him! The phone call alone - one he didn't connect to anyone on - should be enough to prove that JD was not "looking for" Lee or anyone else on the lam.

There is likewise no indication that Tippit got "suspicious" in any way, and in fact the only witness to the shooting said that the conversation seemed to have been "real friendly like" from her point of view less than 100 feet away. Tippit did not draw his weapon, as a "suspicous" cop might well be expected to (I don't give a lot of credence to the "he always looked down, wouldn't meet your eyes" bull). Indeed, the only reason he'd have had to have been suspicious is if he was "part of the conspiracy," which is far from proven.

This scenario also accounts for the impossibility of the patsy Oswald, (i.e. the one known by Tippit) by now nervously seeking his contact in the Texas Theatre, being physically capable of reaching the crime scene in the time available to do the deed.

Of course this is pure speculation and tells us nothing of what the real connection was or what the ultimate outcome of the rendezvous was supposed to be. But it does underline the importance of an often overlooked aspect to this case – Tippit's role.

Who was moving him around the chessboard and why?

Let's be clear: it was not "impossible" for Lee to have gotten from the rooming house on Beckley to 10th and Patton ... but just because it is possible to have done so does not mean that he did. It's possible for me to fly a plane, but that doesn't mean I was in Poughkeepsie last night!

The "real outcome" of the rendezvous was exactly what it was and what it was always intended to be: the murder of a police officer to divert the attention of the rest of the force away from Dealey Plaza ... and to Oak Cliff where the patsy was left to fend for himself.

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Excellent post Duke. I've always enjoyed reading your contributions on this topic. But are you saying he wasn't looking for anyone?

Well, first of all, there is no real indication that Tippit knew Oswald, and likewise none that he was actually looking for Oswald either. Even if he did and was, why pick that particular part of Oak Cliff, and moreover, why stop into Top 10 to call him? It's not like Lee had a cell phone with him! The phone call alone - one he didn't connect to anyone on - should be enough to prove that JD was not "looking for" Lee or anyone else on the lam.

The Top Ten pone call, had it been successful, may have been to ask "Where is he? I've lost him!"

The record reflects that Tippit was at Kiest & Bonnieview at 12:46 and at 8th & Lancaster at 12:54,

Duke is this witness testimony or Tippit's?

If you don't think he was looking for anyone, how else do you account for his known actions in the moments after the assassination? And if his murder was being set up as diversion who knew where to move him and when? And finally was this an integral part of the original conspiracy or an ad hoc attachment when other elements of the plot fell apart?

Best regards

Bernie

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Excellent post Duke. I've always enjoyed reading your contributions on this topic. But are you saying he wasn't looking for anyone?

Nobody male. :D

Well, first of all, there is no real indication that Tippit knew Oswald, and likewise none that he was actually looking for Oswald either. Even if he did and was, why pick that particular part of Oak Cliff, and moreover, why stop into Top 10 to call him? It's not like Lee had a cell phone with him! The phone call alone - one he didn't connect to anyone on - should be enough to prove that JD was not "looking for" Lee or anyone else on the lam.

The Top Ten pone call, had it been successful, may have been to ask "Where is he? I've lost him!"

Coulda been ... but first, you've got to ask several questions to get there, and here's where the whole "Car 10 Where Are You?" scenario gets a little muddled (Bill Drenas and I have talked about this, and I won't say that he exactly agrees, but ...).

First, this map, which will also answer the next question you asked:

The record reflects that Tippit was at Kiest & Bonnieview at 12:46 and at 8th & Lancaster at 12:54,

Duke is this witness testimony or Tippit's?

Position "1" is where, according to Russ Shearer's DPD Channel I radio transcript (which most people who've compared it with the so-called "critics' tape" of the actual recording say is as close to accurate as can be ... and there are several reasons I can't get into here why I think it's authentic, not dummied up), is where Tippit reported being at 12:46, when he was contacted and asked his location; Kiest & Bonnieview.

Position "3" is where he reported being at 12:54 when he was next contacted and asked "You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?" (which is sort of a strange way to ask an open-ended question, but that's neither here nor there). The red arrows mark the route that I believe he took since /a/ it's the most direct route to "3" and /b/ it takes almost exactly eight minutes to travel at about the speed limit ... which, if he was at each location as he'd said he was, when he says he was, the speed limit is about how fast he drove.

Next map:

post-3713-1205726692_thumb.jpg

The Top Ten Record Store is located at 338 W Jefferson, which is the SE corner of Jefferson & Bishop (actually, the second store in from the corner). The Gloco station was located where the Houston Street viaduct comes into Oak Cliff, in the sharp corner of the dark grey triangle. You can see where 8th & Lancaster is located as well, just six or seven blocks south of the Gloco, directly south on Lancaster (which no longer connects to the main drag there; you can see the gap on this recent map).

If one believes that Tippit was at the Gloco when he said he was at Kiest & Bonnieview, then one then has to believe that he managed to stretch out that six- or seven-block trip into eight minutes, or that he'd gone somewhere else and managed to say, exactly eight minutes later, where he would have been exactly eight minutes after leaving Kiest & Bonnieview. That's too coincidental for me to swallow.

As I've said, there are two candidates for being the cop at the Gloco; Tippit isn't one of them.

If Tippit had only 15 minutes to live at that point (as I'm sure he didn't know), then in that time (assuming he was, in fact, at 8th & Lancaster where he said he was) he had to get to Top Ten at Jefferson & Bishop (about 1¼ miles or 4 minutes, according to Google Maps). This puts his arrival there at about 11:58.

Then he had to jump out of his car, run into the store, dial the phone and let it ring a few times, then run back out and get in his car. It takes - and to my recollection, took - about 30 seconds for a phone to ring five times and time to dial it, etc., and let's give him 30 seconds in each direction from the car for an even two minutes, so it's now 12:00 noon sharp. (I'm "pushing" him here, not giving him time for anything other than rush-in, dial, 5 rings, hang up, rush-out and split.)

He clearly didn't have time to get all the way back up to the Gloco almost two miles and approximately six minutes away. The most sensible route would have been Bishop north to Davis, east to Zang, north to the Gloco (1502 N Zang, according to Drenas). That's 12:06. Then down Marsalis to 9th, right on 9th past Patton and south on Crawford to 10th so he could approach 10th & Patton from the west, for another 1½ miles in 4 minutes, 12:10.

Possible ... but then, our scenario above doesn't have him sitting in his car in the gas station lot, so it doesn't work. And 12:10 is already too late; he was dead by then.

... Or he could've done like I think he did, which is to have left Top Ten, crossed Jefferson, turned onto 10th and drove to Patton, about 8/10 of a mile in 3 minutes, 12:03 ... or more likely up to Davis (a wider thoroughfare than little sidestreet 10th. and with traffic lights to cross Zang and Beckley with), over to Crawford, down Crawford to 10th and a block east to his death. That's about 1.1 miles and about 5 minutes, 12:05-ish, a bit closer to the truth.

If he tarried just a little bit, or if he got stuck at a long light at Zangs or Beckley in either direction to or from Top Ten, then it easily could have been a couple of minutes later. It is possible if not likely that the call at 1:03 that Tippit didn't answer occurred when he was in the record shop.

Helen Markham was on the way to catch the 1:12 bus, and testified that it was about 1:08 when she reached the corner of 10th & Patton. Now I know there are lots of good reasons to consider her "an utter screwball" and totally unreliable, but the fact is that she took that bus every day to work, and knew what time to leave her house to get to the bus stop on time. A bus might be late, but one certainly doesn't plan on it being.

Helen at least knew what time it was, how much time she had to get to the bus stop, and what time she'd get there ... which no seasoned bus rider would let be exactly the time the bus was supposed to arrive, because - even while it's not supposed to happen - busses can leave early, too. One does plan on that possiblity!

We will also recall that T.F. Bowley arrived on the scene after the shooting - he didn't see it happen - looked at his watch and saw it was 1:10. I've elsewhere analyzed his movements from picking up his daughter at her school, and found the time to work. I've also visited with him several times, and he's quite confident of the time it was, even why he looked at his watch in the first place, and the fact that it was accurately set.

So, there you have it: no Gloco station for Tippit. And very possibly an accurate accounting of how he went and got where, and when.

If you don't think he was looking for anyone, how else do you account for his known actions in the moments after the assassination? And if his murder was being set up as diversion who knew where to move him and when? And finally was this an integral part of the original conspiracy or an ad hoc attachment when other elements of the plot fell apart?

Read the testimonies of William Scoggins and the Davis girls.

Unless you posit that he was part of The Plot - Oswald's "contact" or some such nonsense - then what specifically would make anyone think he was looking for someone? The supposed incident involving James Andrews is unlikely to have occurred since Andrews claimed to have been driving west on West 10th St "a little after 1:00" - that is, in the opposite direction that Tippit ended up driving (east on East 10th) just a few minutes later.

"Tippit" supposedly was also travelling west "about eight or nine blocks from where Tippit was shot minutes later," that is, two or three blocks west of Bishop, where Tippit was last seen after leaving the record shop. After supposedly stopping Andrews, Tippit again speeds off, still heading in a westerly direction.

Then, inexplicably and unseen, he doubles back, crosses two busy streets (Zang and Beckley) and again starts cruising, not fast, furious and frantically like Andrews describes, but slowly down the street. Then he encounters a man (who may have resembed Oswald, but wasn't) and pulls up alongside him as the guy leans up against the side of Tippit's car as if in conversation through the closed window.

The actions of a man who is trying to "escape" from Tippit and his cohorts? The actions of a man "frantically" in pursuit of none other than Lee Oswald? They don't sound that way to me. What caused Tippit's sudden change of demeanor, from "upset and agitated ... acting wild" to cool, calm and collected - and shy! Remember that he supposedly wouldn't look people in the eye, but down at the ground! - all within a matter of five minutes or less.

I've explored this elsewhere here - maybe even in this thread? - and the answer to your last questions would seem to be that Tippit was predictable to those who knew him, and it was set up from the beginning. The question is, really: what had JD done to piss someone off so badly? Payback for his philandering? Just a "poor dumb cop" who wouldn't be missed?

But then, we almost got to be asking that question about Nick McDonald, too. He was just a bit luckier than JD is all, but he was going to go down, too, moments before Oswald would've met his more timely demise in the theater.

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WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?

Myra wrote:

On 10th January, 1969, Bill Decker sent Buddy Walthers and Alvin Maddox to a motel to question Walter Cherry, an escaped convict and a man suspected of a double murder. When the two detectives entered the room Buddy Walthers was shot dead by Cherry.----------------------------------------

But then Peter Lemkin wrote:

Yes, one of THE most suspicious deaths. How often does one police officer shoot another by 'accident' in such a situation...answer not often. Someone wanted the 'stone' out of their 'shoe' and presto [of blam!] and it was done...and inconvenient truth and witness gone....as so many others.

Why would anyone need to silence Walthers six years after the fact?

Moreover Myra wrote that Cherry, the escaped convict, shot and killed Walthers. Why did Peter write that Walthers was accidentally shot by Maddox?

For what it is worth, about ten years ago there was an incident in Key West where two police officers entered a hotel room to investigate a suspicious person. He was hiding in the bathroom and shot both officers at close range, one in the head. The first officer down shot the man and paralyzed him. Miraculously, neither police officer, both of whom I have met, suffered permanentr injuries. But it is unfortunate that police officers are sometimes killed in the line of duty.

If Walthers had to be silenced, why did the conspirators wait so long? Had they exhausted their methods of disposing of witnesses in 1965 and 1966 and it took them three years to figure out how to get Buddy? And did they get him through Maddox and Cherry?

I would characterize Walthers as one of the LEAST suspicious deaths: a police officer killed in the line of duty by a crazed escaped convict, a full six years after the assassination.

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Excellent post Duke. I've always enjoyed reading your contributions on this topic. But are you saying he wasn't looking for anyone?

Nobody male. :ice

Well, first of all, there is no real indication that Tippit knew Oswald, and likewise none that he was actually looking for Oswald either. Even if he did and was, why pick that particular part of Oak Cliff, and moreover, why stop into Top 10 to call him? It's not like Lee had a cell phone with him! The phone call alone - one he didn't connect to anyone on - should be enough to prove that JD was not "looking for" Lee or anyone else on the lam.

The Top Ten pone call, had it been successful, may have been to ask "Where is he? I've lost him!"

Coulda been ... but first, you've got to ask several questions to get there, and here's where the whole "Car 10 Where Are You?" scenario gets a little muddled (Bill Drenas and I have talked about this, and I won't say that he exactly agrees, but ...).

First, this map, which will also answer the next question you asked:

The record reflects that Tippit was at Kiest & Bonnieview at 12:46 and at 8th & Lancaster at 12:54,

Duke is this witness testimony or Tippit's?

Position "1" is where, according to Russ Shearer's DPD Channel I radio transcript (which most people who've compared it with the so-called "critics' tape" of the actual recording say is as close to accurate as can be ... and there are several reasons I can't get into here why I think it's authentic, not dummied up), is where Tippit reported being at 12:46, when he was contacted and asked his location; Kiest & Bonnieview.

Position "3" is where he reported being at 12:54 when he was next contacted and asked "You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?" (which is sort of a strange way to ask an open-ended question, but that's neither here nor there). The red arrows mark the route that I believe he took since /a/ it's the most direct route to "3" and /b/ it takes almost exactly eight minutes to travel at about the speed limit ... which, if he was at each location as he'd said he was, when he says he was, the speed limit is about how fast he drove.

Next map:

post-3713-1205726692_thumb.jpg

The Top Ten Record Store is located at 338 W Jefferson, which is the SE corner of Jefferson & Bishop (actually, the second store in from the corner). The Gloco station was located where the Houston Street viaduct comes into Oak Cliff, in the sharp corner of the dark grey triangle. You can see where 8th & Lancaster is located as well, just six or seven blocks south of the Gloco, directly south on Lancaster (which no longer connects to the main drag there; you can see the gap on this recent map).

If one believes that Tippit was at the Gloco when he said he was at Kiest & Bonnieview, then one then has to believe that he managed to stretch out that six- or seven-block trip into eight minutes, or that he'd gone somewhere else and managed to say, exactly eight minutes later, where he would have been exactly eight minutes after leaving Kiest & Bonnieview. That's too coincidental for me to swallow.

As I've said, there are two candidates for being the cop at the Gloco; Tippit isn't one of them.

If Tippit had only 15 minutes to live at that point (as I'm sure he didn't know), then in that time (assuming he was, in fact, at 8th & Lancaster where he said he was) he had to get to Top Ten at Jefferson & Bishop (about 1¼ miles or 4 minutes, according to Google Maps). This puts his arrival there at about 11:58.

Then he had to jump out of his car, run into the store, dial the phone and let it ring a few times, then run back out and get in his car. It takes - and to my recollection, took - about 30 seconds for a phone to ring five times and time to dial it, etc., and let's give him 30 seconds in each direction from the car for an even two minutes, so it's now 12:00 noon sharp. (I'm "pushing" him here, not giving him time for anything other than rush-in, dial, 5 rings, hang up, rush-out and split.)

He clearly didn't have time to get all the way back up to the Gloco almost two miles and approximately six minutes away. The most sensible route would have been Bishop north to Davis, east to Zang, north to the Gloco (1502 N Zang, according to Drenas). That's 12:06. Then down Marsalis to 9th, right on 9th past Patton and south on Crawford to 10th so he could approach 10th & Patton from the west, for another 1½ miles in 4 minutes, 12:10.

Possible ... but then, our scenario above doesn't have him sitting in his car in the gas station lot, so it doesn't work. And 12:10 is already too late; he was dead by then.

... Or he could've done like I think he did, which is to have left Top Ten, crossed Jefferson, turned onto 10th and drove to Patton, about 8/10 of a mile in 3 minutes, 12:03 ... or more likely up to Davis (a wider thoroughfare than little sidestreet 10th. and with traffic lights to cross Zang and Beckley with), over to Crawford, down Crawford to 10th and a block east to his death. That's about 1.1 miles and about 5 minutes, 12:05-ish, a bit closer to the truth.

If he tarried just a little bit, or if he got stuck at a long light at Zangs or Beckley in either direction to or from Top Ten, then it easily could have been a couple of minutes later. It is possible if not likely that the call at 1:03 that Tippit didn't answer occurred when he was in the record shop.

Helen Markham was on the way to catch the 1:12 bus, and testified that it was about 1:08 when she reached the corner of 10th & Patton. Now I know there are lots of good reasons to consider her "an utter screwball" and totally unreliable, but the fact is that she took that bus every day to work, and knew what time to leave her house to get to the bus stop on time. A bus might be late, but one certainly doesn't plan on it being.

Helen at least knew what time it was, how much time she had to get to the bus stop, and what time she'd get there ... which no seasoned bus rider would let be exactly the time the bus was supposed to arrive, because - even while it's not supposed to happen - busses can leave early, too. One does plan on that possiblity!

We will also recall that T.F. Bowley arrived on the scene after the shooting - he didn't see it happen - looked at his watch and saw it was 1:10. I've elsewhere analyzed his movements from picking up his daughter at her school, and found the time to work. I've also visited with him several times, and he's quite confident of the time it was, even why he looked at his watch in the first place, and the fact that it was accurately set.

So, there you have it: no Gloco station for Tippit. And very possibly an accurate accounting of how he went and got where, and when.

If you don't think he was looking for anyone, how else do you account for his known actions in the moments after the assassination? And if his murder was being set up as diversion who knew where to move him and when? And finally was this an integral part of the original conspiracy or an ad hoc attachment when other elements of the plot fell apart?

Read the testimonies of William Scoggins and the Davis girls.

Unless you posit that he was part of The Plot - Oswald's "contact" or some such nonsense - then what specifically would make anyone think he was looking for someone? The supposed incident involving James Andrews is unlikely to have occurred since Andrews claimed to have been driving west on West 10th St "a little after 1:00" - that is, in the opposite direction that Tippit ended up driving (east on East 10th) just a few minutes later.

"Tippit" supposedly was also travelling west "about eight or nine blocks from where Tippit was shot minutes later," that is, two or three blocks west of Bishop, where Tippit was last seen after leaving the record shop. After supposedly stopping Andrews, Tippit again speeds off, still heading in a westerly direction.

Then, inexplicably and unseen, he doubles back, crosses two busy streets (Zang and Beckley) and again starts cruising, not fast, furious and frantically like Andrews describes, but slowly down the street. Then he encounters a man (who may have resembed Oswald, but wasn't) and pulls up alongside him as the guy leans up against the side of Tippit's car as if in conversation through the closed window.

The actions of a man who is trying to "escape" from Tippit and his cohorts? The actions of a man "frantically" in pursuit of none other than Lee Oswald? They don't sound that way to me. What caused Tippit's sudden change of demeanor, from "upset and agitated ... acting wild" to cool, calm and collected - and shy! Remember that he supposedly wouldn't look people in the eye, but down at the ground! - all within a matter of five minutes or less.

I've explored this elsewhere here - maybe even in this thread? - and the answer to your last questions would seem to be that Tippit was predictable to those who knew him, and it was set up from the beginning. The question is, really: what had JD done to piss someone off so badly? Payback for his philandering? Just a "poor dumb cop" who wouldn't be missed?

But then, we almost got to be asking that question about Nick McDonald, too. He was just a bit luckier than JD is all, but he was going to go down, too, moments before Oswald would've met his more timely demise in the theater.

Once again Duke, an excellent post with a wealth of information. It's answered many questions. However I'm still a little unsure as to the fuller picture you are painting here. Firstly, if we accept that it wasn't Tippit at the Gloco, and your detailed account of his likely actions do indeed suggest that, then who was it? But more importantly what was HE doing there? Why did another cop arbitarily decide to stand guard at the viaduct and then screech off moments later? What was his brief?

As with Andrews. Are we saying his testimony is somehow tainted? Did HE mistake Tippit for someone else too? But even so, then why was ANOTHER cop "frantically searching" his car? Who was it and what could HE have been looking for?

You also suggest he wasn't looking for a male. Now even my limited research skills tell me that he was therefore looking for a woman. It seems odd that while one of the most world shattering events of the century was taking place down the road (an event his name would be forever linked to) Tippit was involved in his own mini drama of 'find the lady'.

And how would those who had decided Tippit's fate know the outcome of this private romantic tryst? How could they be sure he'd be at the right place at the right time? That wouldn't seem consistant with a man seemingly involved in his own extra marital complications. Surely he would have been guided to the man (not Oswald) assigned to do the deed. They couldn't possibly just hope their paths would accidently cross. Someone had to have knowingly sent him there to meet his fate.

I hope you can clear a few of these points up Duke. Looking forward to your reply.

Best regards

Bernie

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Then he encounters a man (who may have resembed Oswald, but wasn't) and pulls up alongside him as the guy leans up against the side of Tippit's car as if in conversation through the closed window.

Why? Why this man? To me it only makes sense if Tippit had been looking for him. Or someone who closely resembled him. And given that it was at this very place that the pre-arranged murder took place it seems inconceivable that this person was anyone other than Tippit's 'bait'.

What caused Tippit's sudden change of demeanor, from "upset and agitated ... acting wild" to cool, calm and collected - and shy! Remember that he supposedly wouldn't look people in the eye, but down at the ground! - all within a matter of five minutes or less.

Could it have been the realisation that the person he was conversing with was not the same person he was looking for?Spookily similar, but not the same. Would that not account for his growing suspicion? Are there other possible scenarios for Tippit's actions Duke? What other reason could Tippit have cruised and then stopped right by the very person who'd been assigned to eliminate him, if it wasn't that person that Tippit was assigned to look for? And if this person wasn't Oswald then who was he?

I think I may have missed something fundamental in this thread Duke, so by all means shoot me down, but please be tender.

Best regards

Bernie

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I appreciate your several kind comments, and I might understand your consternation except that you keep going back to that same, tired old theme about a connection between LHO and JDT, or that JDT had any reason or instructions to search for someone resembling anyone "spookily similar" to LHO, without ever establishing a shred of evidence to support it.

What "growing suspicion" are you talking about? Do you have anything that suggests that JD had any suspicions about anybody? Since he never communicated anything to the effect that he was "looking for" anyone, and nobody told him to look for anyone, and since nobody who was associated with him has ever suggested such a thing, how you can reach a conclusionary question like "What other reason could Tippit have cruised and then stopped right by the very person who'd been assigned to eliminate him, if it wasn't that person that Tippit was assigned to look for?"

If you can't think of one, it doesn't mean there isn't one. The first thing you've got not to do is start with a conclusion, find the suppositions that support the conclusion, and turn them into "facts" because they seem to "make sense."

There is a saying: "Assassination 'buffs' are those who raise questions; 'researchers' are the ones who answer them." I don't claim to know the answers, but I'm at least not simply raising questions, but dealing with facts. What those facts mean is another story. Add enough of them together, and a picture will start to emerge.

My first recommendation is that, even though this is a long thread, read through it from the start. Then use a keyword search for mentions of Tippit (the results are here) and slog your way through them. Then read the testimonies, affidavits and reports of everyone who was in any way connected with Oak Cliff that afternoon, starting with William Scoggins' and the Davis girls' testimonies; they are all online.

I can't really be an awful lot more help at this juncture. If you've got more questions after you've done that legwork, you know where to find me. ;)

Edited by Duke Lane
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I think the title of this thread is misleading.

Tippit didn't have to be part of any conspiracy.

What's important is that his murder is connected with the assassination of the President.

If that in fact is the case, then the resolution of the Tippit murder would go a long way to resolving the assassination of the President.

And I'm pretty sick of hearing about Dale Myers book "With Malice" as being convincing that Oswald killed Tippit.

Myers is deliberately deceptive, and his book is totally misleading about all the major issues related to Tippit's murder, and leaves out or dismisses as insignificant some of the most important aspects of the case.

The only malice is on Dale Myers part, and any motive he ascribes to any killer is speculative.

The Tippit murder may be the Rosetta Stone to the assassination, but not because it proves the deranged killer of the President also killed the cop, but because the Tippit murder leads to the true source of the President's killers.

While Dallas DA Craig Watkins may not have the power or wherewithall to reopen the assassination of the President, his office certainly can solve the Tippit murder.

Bill Kelly

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... What's important is that his murder is connected with the assassination of the President. If that in fact is the case, then the resolution of the Tippit murder would go a long way to resolving the assassination of the President. ...

The Tippit murder may be the Rosetta Stone to the assassination, but not because it proves the deranged killer of the President also killed the cop, but because the Tippit murder leads to the true source of the President's killers. ...

THE Rosetta Stone had the same thing on it in Greek, Egyptian heiroglyphics and demotic characters; only the Greek was known. Knowing that, however, led to the translation of the others. The common definition is "a clue, breakthrough, or discovery that provides crucial knowledge for the solving of a puzzle or problem." And that the Tippit murder certainly is.

Wars are not won by generals at headquarters, but by footsoldiers on the front lines. If one wants to know what general gave what order, the determination is won by asking the soldier what sergeant sent him, the sergeant what lieutenant's orders he relayed, the lieutenant to the captain to the colonel ... and only then do we find the general who actually ordered the massacre.

... And I'm pretty sick of hearing about Dale Myers book "With Malice" as being convincing that Oswald killed Tippit. Myers is deliberately deceptive, and his book is totally misleading about all the major issues related to Tippit's murder, and leaves out or dismisses as insignificant some of the most important aspects of the case. The only malice is on Dale Myers part, and any motive he ascribes to any killer is speculative.

That may be so, but it doesn't make it any less "convincing" ... at least to the unitiated!

While Dallas DA Craig Watkins may not have the power or wherewithall to reopen the assassination of the President, his office certainly can solve the Tippit murder.

The President got no legal autopsy within the competent jurisdiction; for all legal intents and purposes, he "didn't die" in Texas. If JFK had a massive heart attack as he passed the Stemmons sign, no murder would've taken place. There's just no legal basis to prosecute. Even if we suddenly learn beyond any doubt who pulled the trigger(s), it's unlikely they'll ever see a single day in court ... at least not on the charge of murder.

The same is not true in the Tippit case, although there may be questions about the validity of some of the evidence. Many of the people who may have something to do with it are dead (none, apparently, mysteriously!), and there are many other gaps that may likewise preclude a conviction, possibly even call for a directed acquittal. But a trial may nevertheless bring closure to the case, if it ever came to pass.

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  • 1 month later...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...t.f3d501ff.html

J.D. Tippit's widow sees his name on officers' memorial for first time

<H5 class=vitstorydate>06:38 PM CDT on Monday, May 12, 2008</H5>

By TODD J. GILLMAN / The Dallas Morning News

tgillman@dallasnews.com

WASHINGTON — More than four decades have passed since Marie Tippit lost her husband to John F. Kennedy’s assassin on that fateful November day in Dallas, and on Monday, she got to see J.D. Tippit’s name on a national police memorial, alongside those of thousands of other fallen officers.....

...She has long since remarried but often uses the name of her first husband. Life goes on, she said. But just as the world hasn’t forgotten the Kennedy assassination, she thinks often of her first husband. He was 39. That day, Nov. 22, 1963, he stopped home for lunch — not something he often did. She whipped up some tuna and fried potatoes and he rushed back to work.

Officer Tippit spotted Lee Harvey Oswald wearing a zipped-up jacket. It was 68 degrees, and the jacket looked out of place. He stopped his patrol car and got out. Oswald pulled a handgun and shot at point-blank range. It was 1:15 p.m., just 45 after the president had been shot.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...t.f3d501ff.html

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Y'know, I've always wondered about that:

... Officer Tippit spotted Lee Harvey Oswald wearing a zipped-up jacket. It was 68 degrees, and the jacket looked out of place. He stopped his patrol car and got out.

Just goes to show you the danger of letting amateurs get involved!! To some people in Texas, 68 degrees is downright COLD, "chilly" to many more ... and this guy lives there and acts like it ain't so!

Zipped up jacket is "out of place." Gimme a break! :rolleyes:

I am informed that the writer is on the Washington Bureau of the Dallas Morning News. This makes sense, now: Washington, that half-way place where they don't think 68° is chilly but that a half-inch of snow is a storm!

Either way, it's made up of whole cloth if simply because JD Tippit simply didn't live long enough to tell anyone why he'd stopped Lee Oswald walking down the street ... or, for that matter, even if it was Lee Oswald he'd stopped or someone completely different!

That day, Nov. 22, 1963, he stopped home for lunch — not something he often did. She whipped up some tuna and fried potatoes and he rushed back to work.

Strikes me there's some debate about that since he'd also gotten a bit about 11:30 at a drive-in with his buddy Bill Anglin. Sounds more romantic than factual.

Edited by Duke Lane
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68 degrees can seem warm or cool depending on the wind and the dewpoint.

Last week I worked in the yard on two consecutive days. The temperature was about

68 both times. The first day had no wind and a dewpoint in the 70s. I was comfortable,

even working up a sweat, in shorts and t-shirt. The next day the winds shifted to the

north about 30 mph, the dewpoint fell to the 30s, and I had to wear long sleeves

and long pants to be comfortable. The weatherman said a DRY FRONT was moving

through.

Jack

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Duke,

I do not know what to make of the whole issue to be honest. Tippit, and his part in the whole scheme of things is probably one of the things I struggle with most about the whole case.

I know some may not understand this, but the fact that Oswald was arrested wearing his Marine Corp ring speaks volumes to me.

Mike

Edited by Mike Williams
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