J. D. Tippit: Was he part of the conspiracy?

[Mike Williams]

Peter,

Of course. I apologize and had no intention of diverting the thread. I need to edit that post, I ment to say Tippit in the first line, and just make a general observation about LHO in the second.

Mike

[Robert Howard]

The document below 180-10103-10354 Untitled is fairly revelatory regarding certain aspects of the Tippit murder. It is an interview of Dallas Police Sgt. William Mentzell, whom the HSCA interviewed specifically regarding certain aspects of the Tippit shooting, from what the document states. Specifically about Mentzell's activities.

Apparently, he was in Sector 9 [Central Oak Cliff] the day of the assassination, and was checked out on a Signal 5 [lunch] at a Luby's cafeteria at the time of the assassination.

He states that he heard at Luby's, from someone behind the counter that the President had been shot. He left without touching his food, and immediately began cruising West 10th Street and Zangs Boulevard.

The dispatcher told him [91] to "handle an accident," what Mentzell later refers to as a "fender-bender," at the intersection of Tyler and Davis Streets. [see Radio Log Transcript 830]

just before 1:00 P.M. The document also states that "Mentzell never knew Tippit was in Sector 91 until after he was killed."

He goes on to corroborate, the point made by Murray Jackson that Tippit had a habit of looking down when talking to a person, instead of directly at them.

see

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

Not to sound disrespectful, but I find this claim [the looking down issue] almost hard to believe regarding any police officer. The salient point being, it is, in the context of being in the company of known and potential criminals, as police officers working a beat, "hazardous to your health, if not your very existence."

To be quite honest, I am not really sure I would accept these two individuals account of Tippit's work habits as being the gospel truth......Are there other individuals who attest to this aspect of Tippit's mannerisms?

Edited December 2, 2008 by Robert Howard

[Peter McGuire]

If Oswald did it alone, he managed to murder the President of the United States in a packed Plaza in broad daylight, with only a VAGUE description of him getting out, and people doubting his guilt forty years later. WHY, would someone THAT intelligent, shoot a police officer in broad daylight with tons of witnesses nearby, and no one that could be mistaken as another suspect.

Indeed. Oswald's moves in the aftermath have never made any sense. What kind of "assassin" would hang around the murder scene only to eventually leave which would then certainly cause suspicion. Then finally trap himself in a movie theatre like Oswald did. And this is really all that we really know about what he really did that afternoon which we can believe from the official accounts.

[Duke Lane]

The document below 180-10103-10354 Untitled is fairly revelatory regarding certain aspects of the Tippit murder. It is an interview of Dallas Police Sgt. William Mentzell, whom the HSCA interviewed specifically regarding certain aspects of the Tippit shooting, from what the document states. Specifically about Mentzell's activities.

Apparently, he was in Sector 91 [Central Oak Cliff] the day of the assassination, and was checked out on a Signal 5 [lunch] at a Luby's cafeteria at the time of the assassination. He states that he heard at Luby's, from someone behind the counter that the President had been shot. He left without touching his food, and immediately began cruising West 10th Street and Zangs Boulevard.

...

To be quite honest, I am not really sure I would accept these two individuals account of Tippit's work habits as being the gospel truth......Are there other individuals who attest to this aspect of Tippit's mannerisms?

I wouldn't take much of anything in this interview, either, as gospel truth. Mentzel checked out to lunch - the only patrol officer in the city to have done so - at 12:32 according to his own contemporaneous account (a report of his actions to the Chief; search "Mentzel" in WC docs on MFF), and remained in Luby's for around 30 minutes - basically his whole lunch break - in one account having "tried on several occasions" while eating lunch to contact headquarters unsuccessfully, ultimately leaving his lunch unattended.

You'll find Mentzel's transmissions on the Kimbrough/Ferrell transcript from the "critics' copy" of the DPD tapes here. If he heard that the President had been shot while in the Luby's, then he took his sweet ol' time figuring the killers might head his way. As a point of info, Luby's is a cafeteria-style restaurant, meaning that you enter, get a tray, go through the serving line, pay, sit down and eat. There is no waiting for someone to take your order or for it to arrive, yet in 30 minutes this guy claims not to have finished his lunch? And if he did try "on several occasions" to get through to DPD by phone, what could possibly have been the reason, and if it was indeed news of the downtown shooting, why didn't he go out to his car and radio in?

It is noteworthy that dispatch did not call Mentzel (91) at the time that Tippit (and Nelson, who ignored the order) to "move into central Oak Cliff," nor was he called at any time prior to his assignment to the accident scene, then only after he'd checked back in service. He also spent long enough at a "fender bender" that he missed at least one call to him after the "citizen" call announcing Tippit's shooting.

The whole Oak Cliff business stinks to high heaven.

Indeed. Oswald's moves in the aftermath have never made any sense. What kind of "assassin" would hang around the murder scene only to eventually leave which would then certainly cause suspicion. Then finally trap himself in a movie theatre like Oswald did. And this is really all that we really know about what he really did that afternoon which we can believe from the official accounts.

It appears as if he really did leave the TSBD almost immediately after the shooting. My hunch is that someone told him "boy, we left your rifle upstairs, you're as good as dead when you get caught for shooting the President," and he high-tailed it out of there. I'm more than confident that he was not on the sixth floor during the lunch hour, otherwise Bonnie Ray would've fingered him, which he didn't.

[Neville Gully]

It appears as if he really did leave the TSBD almost immediately after the shooting. My hunch is that someone told him "boy, we left your rifle upstairs, you're as good as dead when you get caught for shooting the President," and he high-tailed it out of there. I'm more than confident that he was not on the sixth floor during the lunch hour, otherwise Bonnie Ray would've fingered him, which he didn't.

I tend to agree with you Duke. He may not even need to be told........if his role on the day was merely to supply the rifle, (or just the barrel in that short package), he would have soon realized what had happened in the TSBD and the implications for him. I have often wondered if the story fed to LHO was that a failed attempt would be made on JFK that day. Just as I think the attempt on Walker was a phoney one. The rifle would be traced to Oswald (the Castro sympathising commie). LHO to escape, (make contact at the Texas Theatre) and attempt to flee to Cuba and/or trigger the invasion of Cuba. When the "phoney" attempt became real, the confused Oswald got his gun for protection before going to the Theatre. But who does he trust now?

[Duke Lane]

... He may not even need to be told........if his role on the day was merely to supply the rifle, (or just the barrel in that short package), he would have soon realized what had happened in the TSBD and the implications for him. I have often wondered if the story fed to LHO was that a failed attempt would be made on JFK that day. ...

Well, it seems fairly certain that something caused him to leave quickly, to have decided that there was "no more work" that day just two or three minutes after the shooting when it wasn't entirely yet certain that something significant had occurred. Given that he was seen 75-90 seconds after the shots were fired in the second floor lunchroom and then walking "calmly" through the secretarial pool toward the front of the building without his shirt, there wasn't much time to assimilate what little data must've been "normally" available to him - he hadn't been outside, didn't have much time to hear any buzz about the President getting his head blown off, and apparently didn't talk with any of his co-workers about what had taken place outside - something must've given him a clear indication that he needed to get out of there.

I used to have doubts about whether it was he who was on McWatters' bus, but it seems fairly clear that he was: what cinched that was not only Mary Bledsoe's recollection of what he wore nearly identical to Bill Whaley's initial description (which she might've read about, seen on TV, etc.), but Bledsoe's testimony about the woman going to Union Station who got on and off the bus the same time as Oswald did (which Bledsoe wouldn't have known about if she hadn't been on the bus). Whaley's initial description of him - despite Oswald's boisterous lineup performance - seems to match up, and Oswald wasn't wearing the brown shirt with metallic stripes during the lineup, which Whaley described him wearing when he made a statement on Saturday morning.

Where all seemed to agree that he'd gotten on - Elm & Murphy Street (now Murphy Crossing, a pedestrian boulevard) area - is 4/10 mile from TSBD, which at a normal pace should've taken about eight minutes to reach, but which the FBI timed at 6½ minutes (3.7 mph vs. a "normal" 2.9 mph, not a huge difference). If he'd left much later, he'd have to have been really beatin' feet get there at 1:40, just a couple of minutes after Whaley had left his timed checkpoint. It would seem as if that would've attracted a fair amount of attention, which it apparently didn't inasmuch as nobody came forward to claim to have seen him - or anyone - running down Elm Street around that time.

So it's clear that he left the building fairly soon after his encounter with Baker & Truly. I think, however, that it's difficult if not impossible to speculate on what the impetus was that caused him to leave the building without having some fairly definite idea of who had done the shooting. While I've got a suspicion, I can't put him or them together with Oswald such that he'd have an inkling of any plans he or they might've had, or how or why they might've given him any insight into anything that was going to happen that day or co-opted his assistance in any way.

I've never been convinced that he'd brought anything other than curtain rods to work in the morning, and while I don't downplay the possibility of the barrel only being in such a package simply because the brainstorm of its possibility came along nearly half-a-century later, somewhere along the line the stock had to be gotten to someone if he'd ever had it in the Paines' garage in the first place (didn't Marina and Ruth unpack the stuff from New Orleans? Can we really speculate that neither of them could feel a rifle inside of a blanket, or guess - or at least wonder about - its contents when they carried it, especially if it was Ruth?).

In considering the possibility of his bringing in the barrel alone, there are several things to account for. First, that the paper normally used to wrap curtain rods (as I recall it) might've been of the same color as the shipping paper used in the TSBD, but it was not of the same weight; it was much flimsier. Frazier, who had worked in a hardward store, would seemingly have thought a heavier paper as being unusual and not concluded that "it looked like" what curtain rods purchased at a hardware store would've looked like.

Second, what purpose would the long bag - assuming that it had any connection to the shooting and even though it was never photographed in situ and thus has a spotty pedigree at best - have served if the stock would have been brought in separately and in a much shorter casing? Merely for it to look like Oswald had brought in the assembled rifle in one package? The rifle would also have had to have been assembled prior to the shooting, but since it wasn't Oswald shooting it or presumably even assembling it, it is not difficult to account for that activity. But it is likewise not a real consideration until and unless it's shown that the rifle was introduced into the building disassembled and in two separate packages.

As a final point, Oswald's departure could, at least theoretically, be attributed to his guilt in the shooting. If that is so, then it leaves only(?) Oswald to have assembled the rifle at some point, and there is no indication of when that might've been or how he accomplished it without a screwdriver, especially if the assembly was done at the last minute, as it theoretically had to have been if Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor, which he clearly seems to have been.

Unfortunately for that scenario, Bonnie Ray was provably on the sixth floor to within no more than six minutes of the shooting and possibly within half of that, during which time the shooter(s) had to be at the ready since the parade was scheduled to pass through Dealey Plaza five minutes earlier than it did, and certainly a killer wouldn't want to be racing to the window hoping to get a shot just as the limo was taking the last corner - and the likelihood that the parade could have been early was just as high as the possibility it was late, and one would hope that the mission was not a failure simply because they'd failed to take that possibility into consideration.

Is being in place five minutes before the scheduled arrival of the motorcade a fair minimum to presume the shooter(s) to be in place to carry the plan out? Is ten minutes too much? If so - and especially if the rifle had yet to be assembled - Bonnie Ray was on the floor with the shooter(s). If you've ever been to the Sixth Floor Museum and stood where Bonnie Ray ate his lunch, looking toward the "sniper's nest" window even with boxes in the way, it is absolutely inconceivable that any activity could have taken place that short of a distance away without it being heard and/or seen by Williams.

If it was Oswald in that window, and with Oswald being dead before the weekend was done and thus beyond the ability to be a threat to anyone, why would Bonnie Ray not identify him as the shooter since Bonnie Ray was there (even despite his efforts to distance himself from it time-wise) and had to have seen whoever was there in the ten or fifteen minutes leading up to the shooting, and even if he was downstairs during the shooting?

Ah, but we stray off-topic! I'll have to get to the Oak Cliff portion of the story later.

[Jack White]

Oswald did not carry a rifle, assembled or disassembled, into the TSBD.

Oswald did not fire a rifle from the TSBD.

It is unproven that Oswald owned a rifle.

Oswald was manipulated into being a patsy.

All official evidence implicating Oswald is likely false.

Jack

[Harry J.Dean]

In his book, Who Killed Kennedy? (May, 1964) Thomas G. Buchanan suggests that J. D. Tippit was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK. Buchanan, who was living in France at the time (he had lost his job with the Washington Evening Star in 1948 because of his alleged membership of the American Communist Party). He claims that there were several stories circulating in Europe at this time that Tippit was a member of the team that was involved in the plot against Kennedy.

Buchanan refers to an article written by Serge Groussard in L’Aurore (a right-wing newspaper which had supported the O.A.S. during the Algerian War). Groussard claimed he had received information that Tippit had been employed to help a man escape from Dallas. He was not told what crime the man had done (or was about to do). When he realised that the man who he was supposed to help had killed JFK, he changed his mind and tried to arrest Oswald. When Oswald realized what was happening, he killed Tippit.

Buchanan rejects this theory. However, he does believe that Tippit was involved in the conspiracy. He puts forward the following points to support this view:

(1) The physical description of Oswald giving out by the Dallas Police was not accurate enough for Tippit to have recognized him. What is more, as Oswald had already returned home to change, the description of his clothing was no longer valid.

(2) Tippit was alone at the time that he apprehended Oswald. According to Buchanan: “Standing orders for police in Dallas, as in other cities, are that radio cars of the type Tippit was driving must have two policemen in them.”

(3) Tippit was not in the sector of Dallas where he had been assigned the day before. He should “have been in downtown Dallas at the time he intercepted Oswald half way between Oswald’s room and Ruby’s”.

(4) Tippit violated police procedure by “failing to make use of the radio beside him to notify his fellow-officers that he was stopping to question a suspect in the Kennedy assassination”.

(5) According to one witness “Oswald smiled at Tippit when he saw him, ambled over to the scout car, and they had an amicable conversation for almost a minute. Tippit staying in the car and Oswald standing in the street beside his rolled-down car window.”

(6) Buchanan claimed that Eva Grant had told reporters that Ruby and Oswald “were like brothers”.

What do members think? Was Tippit involved in the conspiracy? If so, what was his role?

From the manuscripy/book YROJ 1990.

All John Birch Society members were quickly informed by Special Bulletin about the

death of Dallas Police Officer J.D.Tippit, allegedly killed by Lee Oswald.

The case has been confused and disputed . Oswald denied the charge. It remains

unsolved and unproven. Tippit's death remains clouded in mystery.

There is no mystery about Tippit's connections. He worked week-ends in a Dallas

restaurant owned by another Birch Society member.

Another Birch Society Special Bulletin also stated:

We were ready to step into that picture and ask our members for donations for the

support of Tippit's family.....but it might be harmful for us to do so.

Harry J. Dean

[Robert Howard]

In his book, Who Killed Kennedy? (May, 1964) Thomas G. Buchanan suggests that J. D. Tippit was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK. Buchanan, who was living in France at the time (he had lost his job with the Washington Evening Star in 1948 because of his alleged membership of the American Communist Party). He claims that there were several stories circulating in Europe at this time that Tippit was a member of the team that was involved in the plot against Kennedy.

Buchanan refers to an article written by Serge Groussard in L’Aurore (a right-wing newspaper which had supported the O.A.S. during the Algerian War). Groussard claimed he had received information that Tippit had been employed to help a man escape from Dallas. He was not told what crime the man had done (or was about to do). When he realised that the man who he was supposed to help had killed JFK, he changed his mind and tried to arrest Oswald. When Oswald realized what was happening, he killed Tippit.

Buchanan rejects this theory. However, he does believe that Tippit was involved in the conspiracy. He puts forward the following points to support this view:

(1) The physical description of Oswald giving out by the Dallas Police was not accurate enough for Tippit to have recognized him. What is more, as Oswald had already returned home to change, the description of his clothing was no longer valid.

(2) Tippit was alone at the time that he apprehended Oswald. According to Buchanan: “Standing orders for police in Dallas, as in other cities, are that radio cars of the type Tippit was driving must have two policemen in them.”

(3) Tippit was not in the sector of Dallas where he had been assigned the day before. He should “have been in downtown Dallas at the time he intercepted Oswald half way between Oswald’s room and Ruby’s”.

(4) Tippit violated police procedure by “failing to make use of the radio beside him to notify his fellow-officers that he was stopping to question a suspect in the Kennedy assassination”.

(5) According to one witness “Oswald smiled at Tippit when he saw him, ambled over to the scout car, and they had an amicable conversation for almost a minute. Tippit staying in the car and Oswald standing in the street beside his rolled-down car window.”

(6) Buchanan claimed that Eva Grant had told reporters that Ruby and Oswald “were like brothers”.

What do members think? Was Tippit involved in the conspiracy? If so, what was his role?

From the manuscripy/book YROJ 1990.

All John Birch Society members were quickly informed by Special Bulletin about the

death of Dallas Police Officer J.D.Tippit, allegedly killed by Lee Oswald.

The case has been confused and disputed . Oswald denied the charge. It remains

unsolved and unproven. Tippit's death remains clouded in mystery.

There is no mystery about Tippit's connections. He worked week-ends in a Dallas

restaurant owned by another Birch Society member.

Another Birch Society Special Bulletin also stated:

We were ready to step into that picture and ask our members for donations for the

support of Tippit's family.....but it might be harmful for us to do so.

Harry J. Dean

Well, who says consensus is dead; since I posted the Mentzell interview, there has not been a single person who has expressed viewpoints I disagree with. Duke, Jack, Peter and Harry, I couldn't agree more.

It's sad that the logic of our culture these day's, as well as then, pretty much puts us all in the ersatz lunatic fringe crowd....Then on the other hand did you see the story on the newest batch of Nixon tapes, that just came out......especially the segment where he is mentioning his detailed enemies list?

Geez, Tricky Dick comes off so paranoid in that segment, he gives crazy people a bad name.....

[Duke Lane]

Well, who says consensus is dead; since I posted the Mentzell interview, there has not been a single person who has expressed viewpoints I disagree with. Duke, Jack, Peter and Harry, I couldn't agree more.

In another context, Mentzel would be someone I'd term a "person of interest."

Have you posted a question to Dale Myers' blog? He might tend to differ with something we've said.

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi All,

Some questions:

Duke wrote: “I used to have doubts about whether it was he who was on McWatters' bus, but it seems fairly clear that he was: what cinched that was not only Mary Bledsoe's recollection of what he wore nearly identical to Bill Whaley's initial description (which she might've read about, seen on TV, etc.)”

- Wasn’t Bledsoe shown Oswald’s shirt by the Secret Service shortly before she testified?

Duke wrote: “I've never been convinced that he'd brought anything other than curtain rods to work in the morning, and while I don't downplay the possibility of the barrel only being in such a package”

- Were any curtain rods ever recovered from the TSBD?

Questions:

- Where was the rifle (found in the TSBD) stamped with its make/model number, on the stock or barrel?

- Where are rifles generally stamped with make/model number?

- Where would a/the 'Mauser' be stamped?

Thanks - Steve

[Duke Lane]

... Duke wrote: "I used to have doubts about whether it was he who was on McWatters' bus, but it seems fairly clear that he was: what cinched that was not only Mary Bledsoe's recollection of what he wore nearly identical to Bill Whaley's initial description (which she might've read about, seen on TV, etc.)"

- Wasn't Bledsoe shown Oswald's shirt by the Secret Service shortly before she testified?

Duke wrote: "I've never been convinced that he'd brought anything other than curtain rods to work in the morning, and while I don't downplay the possibility of the barrel only being in such a package"

- Were any curtain rods ever recovered from the TSBD?

Steve,

I went into some detail about the curtain rods on the "Why Oswald is Innocent" thread in this post.

Mary Bledsoe was indeed shown the shirt by USSS prior to her deposition, but two things need to be considered against that: first, that William Whaley also said initially, in his November 23 affidavit, that Oswald was wearing a brown shirt; and second, that Mary Bledsoe also recounted the story of the woman who'd gotten on and off the bus at the same time as Oswald (and gotten a transfer in the process) getting back onto the bus after they'd gone around onto Houston Street and before she or the bus had reached Union Station, her destination.

It was the latter that convinced me that she was on the bus; Whaley's description merely solidified it.

The fact that both McWatters and Milton Jones described the man who got onto the bus as wearing a short jacket and not mentioning the shirt is a major factor in why I didn't think she'd been on the bus (plus the fact that neither of the other two mentioned her, and her lack of any real proof of Oswald having lived at her house other than the markings "To Oswald" and "From Oswald" on the days he'd supposedly moved in and out. The handwriting wasn't Oswald's, and was probably hers).

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi Duke,

Regarding your Tippit posts, I am just catching up on that, but have suspected for a while now that you had some interesting points to offer in this area. So I will be following it closely.

Regarding Mary Bledsoe, I don't doubt she may have been on the bus, as her ‘testimony’ seems to suggest, but did she see Oswald on the bus?

She remembers and indeed has much to say regarding the woman asking for the transfer, even offering suggestions/assistance but yet fails to notice or hear ‘Oswald’ asking for a transfer. She notices things about Oswald, such as: “Oswald got on. He looks like a maniac”, “he was dirty”, “he looked so bad in his face, and his face was so distorted”, but she never hears a single word Oswald says.

I think it is important to first establish exactly where MB was sitting before I add more because I for one am in some doubt about this although it appears from her testimony she is sitting where I have marked ‘MB’ in the picture below – can anyone confirm or correct this for me please.

Mr. BALL - You mean--where do you sit with reference to the motorman, one seat or two seats behind him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't--the motorman is here, and I sit across in the seat across the way.

Mr. BALL - Now, on this day when you boarded the bus, is that the seat you took?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - I always did.

Mr. BALL - Would that be the first seat on the right-hand side?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.

Mr. BALL - First seat on the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well----

Miss DOUTHIT - Side seat.

Mr. BALL - Oh, it is a side seat? Was that side seat so that you were facing the motorman?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL - When Oswald got on, you then weren't facing him, were you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; but I saw that it was him.

Mr. BALL - How close did he pass to you as he boarded the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Just in front of me. Just like this [indicating].

Mr. BALL - Just a matter of a foot or two?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL - When he got on the bus, did he say anything to the motorman?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oh, the motorman? I think--I don't know. I don't know.

Mr. BALL - Where did he sit?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - He sat about halfway back down.

Mr. BALL - On what side?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - On the same side I was on.

Mr. BALL - Same side

Mrs. BLEDSOE - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did he look at you as he went by? Did he look at you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't know. I didn't look at him.

Thanks - Steve

... Duke wrote: "I used to have doubts about whether it was he who was on McWatters' bus, but it seems fairly clear that he was: what cinched that was not only Mary Bledsoe's recollection of what he wore nearly identical to Bill Whaley's initial description (which she might've read about, seen on TV, etc.)"

- Wasn't Bledsoe shown Oswald's shirt by the Secret Service shortly before she testified?

Duke wrote: "I've never been convinced that he'd brought anything other than curtain rods to work in the morning, and while I don't downplay the possibility of the barrel only being in such a package"

- Were any curtain rods ever recovered from the TSBD?

Steve,

I went into some detail about the curtain rods on the "Why Oswald is Innocent" thread in this post.

Mary Bledsoe was indeed shown the shirt by USSS prior to her deposition, but two things need to be considered against that: first, that William Whaley also said initially, in his November 23 affidavit, that Oswald was wearing a brown shirt; and second, that Mary Bledsoe also recounted the story of the woman who'd gotten on and off the bus at the same time as Oswald (and gotten a transfer in the process) getting back onto the bus after they'd gone around onto Houston Street and before she or the bus had reached Union Station, her destination.

It was the latter that convinced me that she was on the bus; Whaley's description merely solidified it.

The fact that both McWatters and Milton Jones described the man who got onto the bus as wearing a short jacket and not mentioning the shirt is a major factor in why I didn't think she'd been on the bus (plus the fact that neither of the other two mentioned her, and her lack of any real proof of Oswald having lived at her house other than the markings "To Oswald" and "From Oswald" on the days he'd supposedly moved in and out. The handwriting wasn't Oswald's, and was probably hers).

[Duke Lane]

... Regarding Mary Bledsoe, I don't doubt she may have been on the bus, as her 'testimony' seems to suggest, but did she see Oswald on the bus?

She remembers and indeed has much to say regarding the woman asking for the transfer, even offering suggestions/assistance but yet fails to notice or hear 'Oswald' asking for a transfer. She notices things about Oswald, such as: "Oswald got on. He looks like a maniac", "he was dirty", "he looked so bad in his face, and his face was so distorted", but she never hears a single word Oswald says.

Knowing how outgoing and personable, a regular "life of the party" that Lee was, there probably wasn't an awful lot that he said getting on or off the bus. "Hi, Cecil, how's fares today? Hey, lady, can I help you with that bag? Going to the train station, are you? So, how was school today Milt? Think I'll grab this seat over here. Sure turned out to be a nice day today, didn't it? Great day for target practice. Me, I'm gonna go catch a movie. Hey, has anyone ever seen 'War is Hell?' ...."

There'd be no reason to say anything getting onto the bus: its destination was displayed plainly on the front. If he'd ridden the bus before, he wouldn't have had to ask what the fare was, and maybe it was on a sign getting in even still. Getting off after the "train lady," maybe he only stuck his hand out to take a transfer and McWatters understood what he meant, maybe only said "me too" or "transfer" or even "can I have a transfer too?" In sum, not necessarily a lot for Bledsoe to hear, if anything. (It was also several months later when she testified, and Oswald's saying something routine might well not make as much of an impression upon her as his - to her - unusual appearance.)

Everything she says about Oswald she noticed on his way into the bus, when she had a chance to look him over as he stood with his back to her to pay his fare and walked back into the bus. After that, she was studiously avoiding him. Sitting where she was (see modified diagram below) and given that Oswald would've seen her in profile if she looked straight ahead (i.e., toward the left side of the bus), she probably turned slightly and looked out the front window of the bus so all he'd see was the back of her head and thus never have cause to strike up a conversation with her.

The only inconguity is in her offering advice to the woman across from her: might not Oswald recognize her either by face or by voice once she started talking and presumably looking at the woman? She did say, however, that she'd thought he'd gone "to the back of the bus" (or "halfway back down" from where she was sitting); perhaps she thought he was out of hearing range? Like I said: incongruous. (She probably could've carried on a conversation looking at the woman sidelong across the aisle, her face still held mostly toward the front, appearing intent upon where they were going as opposed to making sure someone didn't recognize her.)

But here's the deal in something of a nutshell:

1) Only one man and one woman got on the bus near Murphy Street (Crossing, today); they were not together (all agreed with this)

2) The woman was going to the train station and sat in front, the man walked farther back to sit down (Jones agreed with this)

3) The bus got caught up in traffic, the lady decided to walk, got a transfer and got off (McWatters agreed with this)

4) The same man that got on with her also got a transfer and got off (all agreed with this)

5) McWatters only gave out those two transfers on that leg of his trip

6) He would've changed the time to 1:15 on it after crossing Lamar

7) Both new passengers passengers got off just before Lamar

8) Bledsoe knew about the woman, said she saw Oswald, and that the man who got on and off with her was he

9) Both Jones and McWatters said the same man got off with the woman

10) Oswald had a 1:00 transfer from McWatters' bus.

It therefore must have been one of those two transfers, and Oswald who was on the bus.

She also described the same shirt that Whaley initially did, and I'll dare to say that she, as a woman, was more likely to notice his clothing simply because she'd known him and had always considered him to be neat, clean and fastidious which, after working in a warehouse all morning, Oswald was not on this particular occasion.

Believe me when I say that I've tried to work it out so that Bledsoe was wrong. She wasn't. Or at least, I can't make her to be.

I think it is important to first establish exactly where MB was sitting before I add more because I for one am in some doubt about this although it appears from her testimony she is sitting where I have marked 'MB' in the picture below – can anyone confirm or correct this for me please.

Right bench, wrong seat.

I've added some details to the diagram you'd used, which is a Commission Exhibit (good work, by the way; such patience!!). First is that, inboard of each of the doors are steps to go from street level to seat level. Second and more importantly is that, directly abaft each set of steps was a wall or barrier separating the passenger compartment from the stairwell. I've added these in blue:

I don't know that it can be seen in the original copy of this diagram; I'm describing this from experience riding similar busses for many years along with common sense; here's why: if the bus stopped severely, there had to be something to keep the passengers restrained from falling into the stairwell. Likewise, if the bus started quickly, nobody wanted boarding passengers to fall onto passengers already seated. These walls were supported by floor-to-ceiling poles, which also supported an overhead rail that ran the length of the bus; additional vertical poles provided support along the length of the bus, including one at each side of the rear exit door. These also helped standing passengers to stabilize themselves when the bus started, stopped, turned, etc.

Mrs. Bledsoe - who was then 67 years old, had had a stroke, tired easily, etc. ("frail?") - said that she sat in the first seat on the right-hand side. Since sitting in the middle of the bench (the second "seat") would not give her the advantage of something to hold onto when the bus started and stopped, it doesn't seem to follow that she would not take advantage of that to keep herself from swaying as the bus maneuvered (I wouldn't either). Thus, I've moved her one "seat" forward to being beside that wall and pole (which looks now like it extends too far into the aisle, but oh well: the point is made).

Milton Jones is who'd marked up the diagram. He'd placed the lady going to Union Station ("train lady," or "TL" on the diagram) in the first seat behind the driver by marking an "L" on the original diagram. He also placed the man ("M" on the original, "LHO" on mine) in the seat behind him, which he'd marked with what appears to be an "O" on the original ("RMJ" for "Roy Milton Jones" on mine), the first forward-facing seat on the right-hand side of the bus. I've placed each of them nearer to the wall than the aisle since that's a fairly normal thing to do for most guys when they board a bus. Jones had also pointed out where a pedestrian ("P" on his diagram, not shown on mine) had been standing when he'd told the bus driver from the outside of the doorway about the shooting. She might have only caught a fleeting glimpse of Oswald as he boarded the bus right beside her, enough only to recognize him. While he stood in front of her, probably with his back and left side to her to pay the fare, she had the opportunity to assess the state of his clothing and mentally contrast it to his more usual "clean and neat" appearance while he was looking for a job. The "madman" and "wild looks" are probably the result of her additional animosity toward him since learning the guy who wouldn't entertain her and interrupted her naps so she threw out of her house after living there only a week had killed the President (and, oh! what a life he'd have left behind for her if he'd stayed, the S.O.B., cops running in and out, reporters interviewing her, her life and afternoon naps disrupted like poor Earlene Roberts! Good riddance to him, I say! She'd probably have revelled in it, actually!).

From that point, his clothing alone would have identified him; she didn't have to see his face. His right elbow was amost directly in front of her face - might even have been crooked as he held onto the pole while getting the transfer, his elbow sticking through the hole - as he exited the bus.

So, all of that said, it either had to be Oswald on the bus, or it had to be someone wearing the shirt Oswald would have on when he was arrested (and who managed to get him to wear it!), who looked enough like him so that his former landlady mistakenly realized later in the day she'd been on the bus with him, and who managed to somehow to get that transfer to DPD so that they could "find" it in a near-identical shirt hours later.

While such a scenario is possible - e.g., hustle Lee out the back door of the TSBD into a car, take him to Oak Cliff while his double rode a bus and cab to near his rooming house (and then, if that were the case, why not have Whaley stop right in front of 1026 to further incriminate Oswald?), got his gun, shot Tippit, eventually turning up wherever his captors had kept him, force him at gunpoint to put the shirt on, then leave him at the corner of Zangs and Jefferson just as the squad cars were screaming along Jefferson, spooking Lee into ducking into Brewer's shoe store and then into the theater to hide from what seemed to be his certain fate (which he could've avoided simply by paying for the theater ticket!) - it doesn't seem likely and does seem fraught with calamity (but would explain why "Oswald" didn't recognize Bledsoe!).

I could even construct that scenario, even taking into account the Pate's Garage episode, but the apparent evidence argues against it, and actually supports it being Oswald on Bledsoe's bus. If you can put together something more plausible, I'm all ears.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

There'd be no reason to say anything getting onto the bus: its destination was displayed plainly on the front. If he'd ridden the bus before, he wouldn't have had to ask what the fare was, and maybe it was on a sign getting in even still.

Mr. BALL - You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare?

Mr. McWATTERS - It is 23 cents.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mcwatters.htm

Ball's next question should have been something like "does everyone pay a 23 cent fare, or is that a specific fare for a specific destination or a specific zone? That question was not put to McWatters.

Would a 23 cent fare entitle him to travel to where the bus turned round again, which I think was somewhere not too far from the Texas Theater?