Robert Howard Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 (edited) I believe that the Office of Naval Intelligence is perhaps the singlemost entity of interest in terms of pre-assassination events. Partly because it is a fact that the USMC of which Oswald belonged,is known to have interfaced with that Office, and also because Guy Bannister was at one time in the Office of Naval Intelligence. Although the book does not cite its sources to the degree that I would like, the following passage in my opinion should be vigorously investigated, if indeed it has not been already. Nevertheless, I am including it here as an FYI to those interested.... ......Impressed with ther scores he acheived on his military aptitude tests, the navy put Charles [Rodgers] technical bent to good use, teaching him cryptography and assigning him to the Office Of Naval Intelligence [ONI], which he had actually been in contact with shortly after Pearl Harbor, many months before he enlisted. He served in the Pacifc theater, intercepting and deciphering Japanese messages from shipboard, as well as transmitting and receiving scrambled American communications. Charles served on two ships: the aircraft carrier Barnes and the destroyer Richmond....... page 112 The Man On the Grassy Knoll - John R Craig & Philip A. Rogers - Avon Books 1992 ISBN 0-380-77127-6 Edited October 4, 2008 by Robert Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I believe that the Office of Naval Intelligence is perhaps the singlemost entity of interest in terms of pre-assassination events. Partly because it is a fact that the USMC of which Oswald belonged,is known to have interfaced with that Office, and also because Guy Bannister was at one time in the Office of Naval Intelligence. Although the book does not cite its sources to the degree that I would like, the following passage in my opinion should be vigorously investigated, if indeed it has not been already. Nevertheless, I am including it here as an FYI to those interested..........Impressed with their scores he acheived on his military aptitude tests, the navy put Charles [Rodgers] technical bent to good use, teaching him cryptography and assigning him to the Office Of Naval Intelligence [ONI], which he had actually been in contact with shortly after Pearl Harbor, many months before he enlisted. He served in the Pacific theater, intercepting and deciphering Japanese messages from shipboard, as well as transmitting and receiving scrambled American communications. Charles served on two ships: the aircraft carrier Barnes and the destroyer Richmond....... page 112 The Man On the Grassy Knoll - John R Craig & Philip A. Rogers - Avon Books 1992 ISBN 0-380-77127-6 continuing on the same theme Ray S. Cline Ray S. Cline, former Deputy Director for Intelligence of the CIA, began his intelligence career in 1942 by working in U.S. Navy codebreaking and then joining the O.S.S. Later he joined the C.I.A. in which he served as chief of station in Taiwan and Germany, and as Deputy Director for Intelligence during the Cuban Missile Crisis. From 1969 to 1973, he was the Director of the Bureau of Intelligence and Research in the Department of State. Dr. Cline is founder and president of the National Intelligence Study Center in Washington, D.C. He is also senior advisor to the Center for Strategic and International Studies at Georgetown University and professor of international relations at Georgetown’s International School of Foreign Service. Dr. Cline earned B.A., M.A., and Ph.d degrees in history at Harvard University and was a Henry Prize Fellow at Oxford University’s Balliol College. He has written or co-written 10 books on intelligence and strategic studies, including Washington Command Post, a reference work on military planning in World War II, and The CIA under Reagan, Bush and Casey, which describes the American intelligence system since that war. Taken from inset of The Central Intelligence Agency a Photographic History Published by Foreign Intelligence Press - 1986 Author John Patrick Quirk Obviously, there is no presumption of guilt simply by virtue of the fact that one worked in a particular capacity for any particular agency or Department of the United States government. The information posted here is strictly for informational purposes only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Root Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 Robert I do appreciate your continued research and presentation of material from this fertile field! Will you be in Dallas this year? Any idea how some sort of seminar on this particular area of research could be set up. It might be interesting for others who may find a reason to focus upon this particular topic? Jim Root Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 (edited) RobertI do appreciate your continued research and presentation of material from this fertile field! Will you be in Dallas this year? Any idea how some sort of seminar on this particular area of research could be set up. It might be interesting for others who may find a reason to focus upon this particular topic? Jim Root My desire is to present what information I have discovered regarding O.N.I. and other topics at the heart of the JFK Assassination, here on the forum. While I think the conferences are a great medium for those who can travel there, I want everything to be here on the Forum in glorious black and white......The only problem I have is that a large majority of my posts are not responded to...... [not this thread, at least] Lack of interest? Who knows? But I am pushing fifty and I will get over it. I appreciate your kind comments..... Another area of interest with a Navy connection, is the September 1962 visit of Lee and Marina Oswald, George DeMohrenschildt and his wife Jeanne, visiting Mrs. Bruton, wife of Admiral Bruton, [who was away in Europe, on business for Collins Radio]. In John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, Armstrong noted that..... Bruton had been a lawyer in Virginia before becoming a Navy intelligence officer. Bruton's specialty was electronic surveillance and this is what he was bringing to Collins Radio. In April of 1963, the Wall Street Journal announced that Collins would construct a modern radio communications system linking Laos, Thailand, and South Vietnam. On November 1, 1963, the New York Times reported that Fidel Castro had captured a large boat called the Rex which was being leased to Collins Radio at the time. The next day, one of the captured Cuban exiles aboard the Rex confessed that the boat had been used to ferry arms into Cuba and that "the CIA organized all arms shipments" (New York Times 11/3/63)......... Continuing....In the Mary Ferrell database under the short bio of Admiral Bruton we see BRUTON, HENRY CHESTER Sources: WC Vol.9, p. 253; HSCA Vol. II, p. 314; HSCA Vol. XII, pp. 62, 188-194); Legend, Epstein, pp. 175, 177, 183 Mary's Comments: Retired Admiral. When he retired from Navy, he became a Vice President of Collins Radio. Friend of George deMohrenschildt who urged the Brutons to provide a home for Marina Oswald. Bruton's wife, Frances (Frannie), was ex-school teacher and was a talented artist. They had a son whose friend, Philip Weinert, also met the Oswalds. An FBI memorandum dated Sept. 15, 1942 stated that at that time De Mohrenschildt lived at 3022 Benton Street N.W. in Washington D.C. with Quentin Keyes whom the memorandum described as a member of British intelligence, and two American naval officers. The memorandum stated that de Mohrenschildt was very “Pro-Nazi.” In October 1942 the FBI interviewed the man who rented the Benton Street house, Paul Joachim. Joachim told the FBI that he was employed at the time in the Navy building. The other occupants of the house were Lt. Commander Harry Hull of the U.S. Navy and Quinton Quines, who Joachim said worked at the British Embassy. Joachim said de Mohrenschildt lived at the house during the end of May and all of June 1942. He said George DeMohrenschildt never made any statements about feelings toward any country and no statements which were pro-Nazi. ......So, even 20 years before the Kennedy assassination George de Mohrenschildt was associating with naval personnel....... In some ways, the DeMohrenschildt family was almost as enigmatic as the Oswalds...almost Edited October 10, 2008 by Robert Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Root Posted October 10, 2008 Author Share Posted October 10, 2008 Robert I am not so sure is as complicaed as we may think. George D's brother Was Dimitri who is closely associated with Whitney Shepardson. This I believe is the deeper connection. Shepardson was SI (Secret Intelligence) during WWII which is associated with John Grombach who came into the intelligence game via a paper he wrote on the use of commercial radio transmissions to send intelligence information. SI ran the Stockholm station of the OSS and SI seems to have had totall control over that station. Grombach post war intelligence group used commercial radio businesses as a base of operations. Your post suggests that Bruton did business in Europe for Collins Radio which folds well within the Grombach's organizational operations. Your suggestion may be a double connection to the former SI operatives that were gathering information in June of 1959 about former operations in Helsinki. It would not be far fetched at all to suggest that brothers George and Dimitri maintained contact at this time and may well have been working together. It is not a difficult stretch to make a connection to the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union via this same group (Gerald Hemming had told me that the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union was false tagged as an ONI operation but that it was deeper than that). George D is the one person that seemed to guess that Oswald had shot at Walker. Did he pass this information to his brother? Shortly after this event occured Richard Helms, another of the SI, Stockholm group, begins monitoring Oswald's movements. The Bellin note (CIA forensic evaluation of Oswald's ability to have committed the assassination, 1976, suggested that if it had been know that Oswald had attempted the assassination of Walker it would have been easy to predict that Oswald would kill the President) shows that it would have been possible to know that an assassin was in place in Dallas. All that was necessary was to run the motorcade past where Oswald was. FBI Agent Hosty's third note (that has never been acknowledged by the CIA but was alluded to in the testimony of Agent Hosty) allowed the office of Richard Helms to know exactly where Oswald was working before the final motorcade route was determined. That route had, as the final building passed, the building where a man that the CIA admits would kill the President if he had the opportunity was working. A nearly perfect crime! Jim Root Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 (edited) RobertI am not so sure is as complicaed as we may think. George D's brother Was Dimitri who is closely associated with Whitney Shepardson. This I believe is the deeper connection. Shepardson was SI (Secret Intelligence) during WWII which is associated with John Grombach who came into the intelligence game via a paper he wrote on the use of commercial radio transmissions to send intelligence information. SI ran the Stockholm station of the OSS and SI seems to have had totall control over that station. Grombach post war intelligence group used commercial radio businesses as a base of operations. Your post suggests that Bruton did business in Europe for Collins Radio which folds well within the Grombach's organizational operations. Your suggestion may be a double connection to the former SI operatives that were gathering information in June of 1959 about former operations in Helsinki. It would not be far fetched at all to suggest that brothers George and Dimitri maintained contact at this time and may well have been working together. It is not a difficult stretch to make a connection to the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union via this same group (Gerald Hemming had told me that the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union was false tagged as an ONI operation but that it was deeper than that). George D is the one person that seemed to guess that Oswald had shot at Walker. Did he pass this information to his brother? Shortly after this event occured Richard Helms, another of the SI, Stockholm group, begins monitoring Oswald's movements. The Bellin note (CIA forensic evaluation of Oswald's ability to have committed the assassination, 1976, suggested that if it had been know that Oswald had attempted the assassination of Walker it would have been easy to predict that Oswald would kill the President) shows that it would have been possible to know that an assassin was in place in Dallas. All that was necessary was to run the motorcade past where Oswald was. FBI Agent Hosty's third note (that has never been acknowledged by the CIA but was alluded to in the testimony of Agent Hosty) allowed the office of Richard Helms to know exactly where Oswald was working before the final motorcade route was determined. That route had, as the final building passed, the building where a man that the CIA admits would kill the President if he had the opportunity was working. A nearly perfect crime! Jim Root I am glad that you brought up the Walker shooting. I have always felt that Dick Russell's epic The Man Who Knew Too Much, has connected the various parties involved in the assassination into a complete whole. The footnotes alone could be a book, arguably. And it is in the footnotes that I found the following passage. Walker, Edwin page 762-763 of The Man Who Knew Too Much original edition 1993......... In the AARC files there is an unsigned letter from an ex-seviceman that relates to the Walker shooting— and the possibility that its origin emanated from the military or the CIA. The letter states. “I enlisted in the Army, March 18, 1962 and after basic and advanced infantry training at Fort Ord, Calif. I was transferred to Ft. Benning, Ga. for jump school. September of 1962 I was assigned to Ft. Bragg, NC (21 501st HQ co.— that was the system at the time).... ......During October 1962 and again in Feb. 1963 I was interviewed by two officers at Ft. Bragg,. After several meetings at a small Spanish type cafe near the train station I agreed to undergo some special weapons training for an overseas assignment. They explained that I would be given addditional up to date briefings in Germany and that from there I would be flown into Riga, Latvia, USSR for an assassination case. As I had a confidential clearance, they stated it was all right for them to discuss the basic details with me and also said that I could refuse the assignment, but in any case I would have to remain quiet about it. The Riga operation entailed some Colonel in the Soviet Army that was infiltrating a CIA team which was supplying some weapons for a rebellion. The warrant officers said that no one would believe me if I said anything anyway, and that after I did, I would be placed incommunicado and given “treatment.” I had no reason to say anything to anyone at the time, but within the last few years I believe that an effort has been made to seriously neutralize my position. They attempted to say that I was incompetent once in 1969, and after a transfer to Springfield Medical Center their assertions were proven untrue. During Feb. 1963 I was told that my assignment was going to be in the United States and that the target was Maj. Gen. Edwin Walker. Then, late in that month, I was told to forget that assignment, that someone else had been chosen....... Of course, veteran JFK researchers are all too familiar with the information-disinformation issue. Is this a real factual account or someone doing a "inserting oneself into the Crime of the Century?" Considering that the ballistics aspect of the Walker shooting revealed that the "shells" recovered from Maj. Gen Edwin Walker's residence were not consistent with shells that could be fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano..i.e....30.06 were they not.... I have always felt that Oswald was there but was not the shooter, also see Dick Russell's TMWKTM regarding two other people believed to have been there besides Oswald, I tend to believe that the above account is more than likely true; but that is just my opinion... Edited October 10, 2008 by Robert Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti Hynonen Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Robert Howard Posted Today, 03:27 PM QUOTE(Jim Root @ Oct 10 2008, 03:46 AM) Robert I am not so sure is as complicaed as we may think. George D's brother Was Dimitri who is closely associated with Whitney Shepardson. This I believe is the deeper connection. Shepardson was SI (Secret Intelligence) during WWII which is associated with John Grombach who came into the intelligence game via a paper he wrote on the use of commercial radio transmissions to send intelligence information. SI ran the Stockholm station of the OSS and SI seems to have had totall control over that station. Grombach post war intelligence group used commercial radio businesses as a base of operations. Your post suggests that Bruton did business in Europe for Collins Radio which folds well within the Grombach's organizational operations. Your suggestion may be a double connection to the former SI operatives that were gathering information in June of 1959 about former operations in Helsinki. It would not be far fetched at all to suggest that brothers George and Dimitri maintained contact at this time and may well have been working together. It is not a difficult stretch to make a connection to the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union via this same group (Gerald Hemming had told me that the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union was false tagged as an ONI operation but that it was deeper than that). George D is the one person that seemed to guess that Oswald had shot at Walker. Did he pass this information to his brother? Shortly after this event occured Richard Helms, another of the SI, Stockholm group, begins monitoring Oswald's movements. The Bellin note (CIA forensic evaluation of Oswald's ability to have committed the assassination, 1976, suggested that if it had been know that Oswald had attempted the assassination of Walker it would have been easy to predict that Oswald would kill the President) shows that it would have been possible to know that an assassin was in place in Dallas. All that was necessary was to run the motorcade past where Oswald was. FBI Agent Hosty's third note (that has never been acknowledged by the CIA but was alluded to in the testimony of Agent Hosty) allowed the office of Richard Helms to know exactly where Oswald was working before the final motorcade route was determined. That route had, as the final building passed, the building where a man that the CIA admits would kill the President if he had the opportunity was working. A nearly perfect crime! Jim Root I am glad that you brought up the Walker shooting. I have always felt that Dick Russell's epic The Man Who Knew Too Much, has connected the various parties involved in the assassination into a complete whole. The footnotes alone could be a book, arguably. And it is in the footnotes that I found the following passage. Walker, Edwin page 762-763 of The Man Who Knew Too Much original edition 1993......... In the AARC files there is an unsigned letter from an ex-seviceman that relates to the Walker shooting— and the possibility that its origin emanated from the military or the CIA. The letter states. “I enlisted in the Army, March 18, 1962 and after basic and advanced infantry training at Fort Ord, Calif. I was transferred to Ft. Benning, Ga. for jump school. September of 1962 I was assigned to Ft. Bragg, NC (21 501st HQ co.— that was the system at the time).... ......During October 1962 and again in Feb. 1963 I was interviewed by two officers at Ft. Bragg,. After several meetings at a small Spanish type cafe near the train station I agreed to undergo some special weapons training for an overseas assignment. They explained that I would be given addditional up to date briefings in Germany and that from there I would be flown into Riga, Latvia, USSR for an assassination case. As I had a confidential clearance, they stated it was all right for them to discuss the basic details with me and also said that I could refuse the assignment, but in any case I would have to remain quiet about it. The Riga operation entailed some Colonel in the Soviet Army that was infiltrating a CIA team which was supplying some weapons for a rebellion. The warrant officers said that no one would believe me if I said anything anyway, and that after I did, I would be placed incommunicado and given “treatment.” I had no reason to say anything to anyone at the time, but within the last few years I believe that an effort has been made to seriously neutralize my position. They attempted to say that I was incompetent once in 1969, and after a transfer to Springfield Medical Center their assertions were proven untrue. During Feb. 1963 I was told that my assignment was going to be in the United States and that the target was Maj. Gen. Edwin Walker. Then, late in that month, I was told to forget that assignment, that someone else had been chosen....... Of course, veteran JFK researchers are all too familiar with the information-disinformation issue. Is this a real factual account or someone doing a "inserting oneself into the Crime of the Century?" Considering that the ballistics aspect of the Walker shooting revealed that the "shells" recovered from Maj. Gen Edwin Walker's residence were not consistent with shells that could be fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano..i.e....30.06 were they not.... I have always felt that Oswald was there but was not the shooter, also see Dick Russell's TMWKTM regarding two other people believed to have been there besides Oswald, I tend to believe that the above account is more than likely true; but that is just my opinion... Robert, Dan Marvin tells of a similar assignment also at Ft. Bragg. He said it was a company man (CIA) that approached him with the assignment to assassinate Lt. Cmdr. William Pitzer, of the Navy Medical school of Bethesda, Md. If I recall this was in August of 1965. Dan Marvin declined, but reacalls that someone else in his outfit was approached after him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 (edited) Robert Howard Posted Today, 03:27 PM QUOTE(Jim Root @ Oct 10 2008, 03:46 AM) Robert I am not so sure is as complicaed as we may think. George D's brother Was Dimitri who is closely associated with Whitney Shepardson. This I believe is the deeper connection. Shepardson was SI (Secret Intelligence) during WWII which is associated with John Grombach who came into the intelligence game via a paper he wrote on the use of commercial radio transmissions to send intelligence information. SI ran the Stockholm station of the OSS and SI seems to have had totall control over that station. Grombach post war intelligence group used commercial radio businesses as a base of operations. Your post suggests that Bruton did business in Europe for Collins Radio which folds well within the Grombach's organizational operations. Your suggestion may be a double connection to the former SI operatives that were gathering information in June of 1959 about former operations in Helsinki. It would not be far fetched at all to suggest that brothers George and Dimitri maintained contact at this time and may well have been working together. It is not a difficult stretch to make a connection to the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union via this same group (Gerald Hemming had told me that the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union was false tagged as an ONI operation but that it was deeper than that). George D is the one person that seemed to guess that Oswald had shot at Walker. Did he pass this information to his brother? Shortly after this event occured Richard Helms, another of the SI, Stockholm group, begins monitoring Oswald's movements. The Bellin note (CIA forensic evaluation of Oswald's ability to have committed the assassination, 1976, suggested that if it had been know that Oswald had attempted the assassination of Walker it would have been easy to predict that Oswald would kill the President) shows that it would have been possible to know that an assassin was in place in Dallas. All that was necessary was to run the motorcade past where Oswald was. FBI Agent Hosty's third note (that has never been acknowledged by the CIA but was alluded to in the testimony of Agent Hosty) allowed the office of Richard Helms to know exactly where Oswald was working before the final motorcade route was determined. That route had, as the final building passed, the building where a man that the CIA admits would kill the President if he had the opportunity was working. A nearly perfect crime! Jim Root I am glad that you brought up the Walker shooting. I have always felt that Dick Russell's epic The Man Who Knew Too Much, has connected the various parties involved in the assassination into a complete whole. The footnotes alone could be a book, arguably. And it is in the footnotes that I found the following passage. Walker, Edwin page 762-763 of The Man Who Knew Too Much original edition 1993......... In the AARC files there is an unsigned letter from an ex-seviceman that relates to the Walker shooting— and the possibility that its origin emanated from the military or the CIA. The letter states. “I enlisted in the Army, March 18, 1962 and after basic and advanced infantry training at Fort Ord, Calif. I was transferred to Ft. Benning, Ga. for jump school. September of 1962 I was assigned to Ft. Bragg, NC (21 501st HQ co.— that was the system at the time).... ......During October 1962 and again in Feb. 1963 I was interviewed by two officers at Ft. Bragg,. After several meetings at a small Spanish type cafe near the train station I agreed to undergo some special weapons training for an overseas assignment. They explained that I would be given addditional up to date briefings in Germany and that from there I would be flown into Riga, Latvia, USSR for an assassination case. As I had a confidential clearance, they stated it was all right for them to discuss the basic details with me and also said that I could refuse the assignment, but in any case I would have to remain quiet about it. The Riga operation entailed some Colonel in the Soviet Army that was infiltrating a CIA team which was supplying some weapons for a rebellion. The warrant officers said that no one would believe me if I said anything anyway, and that after I did, I would be placed incommunicado and given “treatment.” I had no reason to say anything to anyone at the time, but within the last few years I believe that an effort has been made to seriously neutralize my position. They attempted to say that I was incompetent once in 1969, and after a transfer to Springfield Medical Center their assertions were proven untrue. During Feb. 1963 I was told that my assignment was going to be in the United States and that the target was Maj. Gen. Edwin Walker. Then, late in that month, I was told to forget that assignment, that someone else had been chosen....... Of course, veteran JFK researchers are all too familiar with the information-disinformation issue. Is this a real factual account or someone doing a "inserting oneself into the Crime of the Century?" Considering that the ballistics aspect of the Walker shooting revealed that the "shells" recovered from Maj. Gen Edwin Walker's residence were not consistent with shells that could be fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano..i.e....30.06 were they not.... I have always felt that Oswald was there but was not the shooter, also see Dick Russell's TMWKTM regarding two other people believed to have been there besides Oswald, I tend to believe that the above account is more than likely true; but that is just my opinion... Robert, Dan Marvin tells of a similar assignment also at Ft. Bragg. He said it was a company man (CIA) that approached him with the assignment to assassinate Lt. Cmdr. William Pitzer, of the Navy Medical school of Bethesda, Md. If I recall this was in August of 1965. Dan Marvin declined, but reacalls that someone else in his outfit was approached after him. Fort Bragg does indeed crop up from time to time. It was factoids such as the ones being discussed that, [years ago] led me to believe that there was a conspiracy in the assassination of JFK. I try to look at the assassination as a whole, through the lens of reality. The events in Dealey Plaza in the context of the known people that were there that day, [not to mention those who are, disputed, but believed to be there] is the prima facie evidence of a "black op." However, one views the guilt or absence of guilt imputed to Lee Harvey Oswald, the evidence of the characteristics of the aforementioned, in my view are incontrovertible. Once one realizes that, Oswald as the patsy rings rather hollow..... and the so-called evidence that served to convict him before and after his death is just more of the same..... I used to be frightened at the idea of confronting the dark side of how America really works, but in light of what has transpired, especially in The New American Century, it makes me very angry; And it is only when the American people say enough, that our country can once again be a "light shining on a hill." The saving grace is, that ultimately good triumphs over evil, however long it takes. I cannot believe the trail of scandal, corruption and lies that have proceded from that day, and I believe that while there is life there is hope. The influence of the Kennedy legacy for me is one that transcends religious and philosophical arguments.... Simply stated: One man can make a difference. If one allows oneself to be dissuaded in that truth, life has no inherent meaning, and results in what I would call the anarchy of the mind. Sorry for the bully pulpit......but ideas are contagious! Edited October 10, 2008 by Robert Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Root Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 Gentelmen The suggestion here is that this does not have to be that complicated. Grombach's former SI men included Whitney Shepardson. Shepardson was Associated with Demitri D., brother of George D, Oswalds friend in Dallas. George guessed, correctly, I believe, that Oswald had missed in his attempt at killing Walker. If George passed this info on to his brother, then former SI man Richard Helms, who had worked for Shepardson, has the FBI begin trailing and reporting on the movements of Oswald. (I will soon make a post that draws a connection to Helms' office ordering the observation of Oswald following the assassiantion attempt on Walker). We next have the Bellin note that says the only missing piece that the CIA needed to know that Oswald would assassinate the President was that they did not know that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker. The above suggests that a very small group may in fact have known that Oswald did attempt to assassinate Walker. The office of Richard Helms, via FBI surveillence, then becomes aware of where Oswald is working prior to the motorcade route being finalized. The MC is then directed to pass one last building which just happens to have working within it a man that the CIA themselves admit would assassiante the President if given the opportunity. Means and opportunity..... Motive. John J. McCloy, who had resigned as Kennedy's lead arms negotiator and was unhappy with Kennedy, spoke with Dwight Eisenhower about his distain for Kennedy and that he felt that Goldwater was not the right man to become President on the Republican side. McCloy got his wish, in some ways, neither Kennedy or Goldwater but rather Johnson, who would not only appoint McCloy to the Warren Commission but would also reappoint McCloy as the lead arms negotiator for the US. McCloy literally got everything he wanted and can be directly linked to the group above as well as to John B. Hurt a man that shares the name (at a minimum) to the name of a man that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to contact after the assassiantion. But everyone is so invested in attempting to prove consiracy by proving that Oswald was not the shooter we, as conspiracy theorists, may well have done the greatest work of coverup for the conspirators. By eliminating any ligitimate investigation into why Oswald would have committed the crime (for me especially the attempted assassination of Edwin Walker) we eliminate the possibility of discovering the trail that would lead my research to the group that I have suggested above. Nobody today doubts the roll of Helms in the pre assassination trailing of Oswald or in the post assassination cover up of significant evidence in the assassination. Why not look further into the men that controlled Helms, the men mentioned above, which includes John J. McCloy. It all fits very neatly into a tightly held, very small group of conspirators that could allow the assassiantion to happen without having to actually place an assassin in a specific location to do the deed. The assassin would have no idea that he was doing the work of conspirators that were pulling his strings . These few conspirators would have the advantage of a detailed knowledge of the mental state of the man that they would "set up" to do the job. A very difficult and complicated crime to unravel! This has been interesting. Jim Root Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 (edited) GentelmenThe suggestion here is that this does not have to be that complicated. Grombach's former SI men included Whitney Shepardson. Shepardson was Associated with Demitri D., brother of George D, Oswalds friend in Dallas. George guessed, correctly, I believe, that Oswald had missed in his attempt at killing Walker. If George passed this info on to his brother, then former SI man Richard Helms, who had worked for Shepardson, has the FBI begin trailing and reporting on the movements of Oswald. (I will soon make a post that draws a connection to Helms' office ordering the observation of Oswald following the assassiantion attempt on Walker). We next have the Bellin note that says the only missing piece that the CIA needed to know that Oswald would assassinate the President was that they did not know that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker. The above suggests that a very small group may in fact have known that Oswald did attempt to assassinate Walker. The office of Richard Helms, via FBI surveillence, then becomes aware of where Oswald is working prior to the motorcade route being finalized. The MC is then directed to pass one last building which just happens to have working within it a man that the CIA themselves admit would assassiante the President if given the opportunity. Means and opportunity..... Motive. John J. McCloy, who had resigned as Kennedy's lead arms negotiator and was unhappy with Kennedy, spoke with Dwight Eisenhower about his distain for Kennedy and that he felt that Goldwater was not the right man to become President on the Republican side. McCloy got his wish, in some ways, neither Kennedy or Goldwater but rather Johnson, who would not only appoint McCloy to the Warren Commission but would also reappoint McCloy as the lead arms negotiator for the US. McCloy literally got everything he wanted and can be directly linked to the group above as well as to John B. Hurt a man that shares the name (at a minimum) to the name of a man that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to contact after the assassiantion. But everyone is so invested in attempting to prove consiracy by proving that Oswald was not the shooter we, as conspiracy theorists, may well have done the greatest work of coverup for the conspirators. By eliminating any ligitimate investigation into why Oswald would have committed the crime (for me especially the attempted assassination of Edwin Walker) we eliminate the possibility of discovering the trail that would lead my research to the group that I have suggested above. Nobody today doubts the roll of Helms in the pre assassination trailing of Oswald or in the post assassination cover up of significant evidence in the assassination. Why not look further into the men that controlled Helms, the men mentioned above, which includes John J. McCloy. It all fits very neatly into a tightly held, very small group of conspirators that could allow the assassiantion to happen without having to actually place an assassin in a specific location to do the deed. The assassin would have no idea that he was doing the work of conspirators that were pulling his strings . These few conspirators would have the advantage of a detailed knowledge of the mental state of the man that they would "set up" to do the job. A very difficult and complicated crime to unravel! This has been interesting. Jim Root You will definitely NOT want to "take my word for it," so I will be providing a URL Link so that it can be a matter of record. But it involves maryferrell.org's HSCA Section files for John Hurt, there is the following. Index for FBI HSCA Subject: John Heard aka Hurt, Main File 63-5507 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...do?docId=136888 I definitely do not consider the title linkage a profound revelation by any means, but at the same time. The question that seems kind of obvious, is does this establish, if it already has not been established, that the John Heard that Abraham Bolden refers to in his book is the same person that is the John Hurt we all have an interest in? One of the more interesting documents in this section is part of a document from 1959, that states.... On the night of 7-23-1959 JOHN DAVID HURT 2711 St. Marys St., Raleigh, North Carolina, telephonically contacted SA David W. Watson and requested an interview. Hurt was interviewed by SA Watson at Hurt's residence on 7-23-1959. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=3 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2 Basically the information in these two documents, in my opinion, lead one to conclude one, of two conclusions. 1. That HURT was indeed a psychopath, as is the conclusion drawn at the end of the first document, and everything pertaining to him is a waste of time. 2. Or the conclusion that I am inclined to believe; is that Hurt's situation bears a remarkable similarity to other individuals such as Garrett Trapnell, Richard Case Nagell and others who were utilized "because" of the fact that their "unstable" backgrounds made them ideal candidates for, dare I say it Machiavellian? designs. Only an opinion Edited November 20, 2008 by Robert Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) GentelmenThe suggestion here is that this does not have to be that complicated. Grombach's former SI men included Whitney Shepardson. Shepardson was Associated with Demitri D., brother of George D, Oswalds friend in Dallas. George guessed, correctly, I believe, that Oswald had missed in his attempt at killing Walker. If George passed this info on to his brother, then former SI man Richard Helms, who had worked for Shepardson, has the FBI begin trailing and reporting on the movements of Oswald. (I will soon make a post that draws a connection to Helms' office ordering the observation of Oswald following the assassiantion attempt on Walker). We next have the Bellin note that says the only missing piece that the CIA needed to know that Oswald would assassinate thePresident was that they did not know that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker. The above suggests that a very small group may in fact have known that Oswald did attempt to assassinate Walker. The office of Richard Helms, via FBI surveillence, then becomes aware of where Oswald is working prior to the motorcade route being finalized. The MC is then directed to pass one last building which just happens to have working within it a man that the CIA themselves admit would assassinate the President if given the opportunity. Means and opportunity..... Motive. John J. McCloy, who had resigned as Kennedy's lead arms negotiator and was unhappy with Kennedy, spoke with Dwight Eisenhower about his distain for Kennedy and that he felt that Goldwater was not the right man to become President on the Republican side. McCloy got his wish, in some ways, neither Kennedy or Goldwater but rather Johnson, who would not only appoint McCloy to the Warren Commission but would also reappoint McCloy as the lead arms negotiator for the US. McCloy literally got everything he wanted and can be directly linked to the group above as well as to John B. Hurt a man that shares the name (at a minimum) to the name of a man that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to contact after the assassiantion. But everyone is so invested in attempting to prove consiracy by proving that Oswald was not the shooter we, as conspiracy theorists, may well have done the greatest work of coverup for the conspirators. By eliminating any ligitimate investigation into why Oswald would have committed the crime (for me especially the attempted assassination of Edwin Walker) we eliminate the possibility of discovering the trail that would lead my research to the group that I have suggested above. Nobody today doubts the roll of Helms in the pre assassination trailing of Oswald or in the post assassination cover up of significant evidence in the assassination. Why not look further into the men that controlled Helms, the men mentioned above, which includes John J. McCloy. It all fits very neatly into a tightly held, very small group of conspirators that could allow the assassiantion to happen without having to actually place an assassin in a specific location to do the deed. The assassin would have no idea that he was doing the work of conspirators that were pulling his strings . These few conspirators would have the advantage of a detailed knowledge of the mental state of the man that they would "set up" to do the job. A very difficult and complicated crime to unravel! This has been interesting. Jim Root You will definitely NOT want to "take my word for it," so I will be providing a URL Link so that it can be a matter of record. But it involves maryferrell.org's HSCA Section files for John Hurt, there is the following. Index for FBI HSCA Subject: John Heard aka Hurt, Main File 63-5507 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...do?docId=136888 I definitely do not consider the title linkage a profound revelation by any means, but at the same time. The question that seems kind of obvious, is does this establish, if it already has not been established, that the John Heard that Abraham Bolden refers to in his book is the same person that is the John Hurt we all have an interest in? One of the more interesting documents in this section is part of a document from 1959, that states.... On the night of 7-23-1959 JOHN DAVID HURT 2711 St. Marys St., Raleigh, North Carolina, telephonically contacted SA David W. Watson and requested an interview. Hurt was interviewed by SA Watson at Hurt's residence on 7-23-1959. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=3 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2 Basically the information in these two documents, in my opinion, lead one to conclude one, of two conclusions. 1. That HURT was indeed a psychopath, as is the conclusion drawn at the end of the first document, and everything pertaining to him is a waste of time. 2. Or the conclusion that I am inclined to believe; is that Hurt's situation bears a remarkable similarity to other individuals such as Garrett Trapnell, Richard Case Nagell and others who were utilized "because" of the fact that their "unstable" backgrounds made them ideal candidates for, dare I say it Machiavellian? designs. Only an opinion The following document, I intend to demonstrate, is more than important. The reasoning behind this belief will follow the post. HSCA File on John Heard/Hurt SAC Charlotte Director, FBI July 23, 1956 JOHN HURT MISCELLANEOUS INFORMATION REGARDING JOHN HURT 2711 St. Marys St., Raleigh, North Carolina, telephone TE 4-7430, telephonically contacted the Bureau at 1:25 a.m., 7-23-1959, to advise that he felt that his personal safety might be in jeopardy because of information he had furnished Governor Hodges of North Carolina. Hurt related a rather confused story of having furnished to Governor Hodges recently regarding tax matters and liquor matters which he thought might precipitate an investigation by state authorities. Hurt said that since he had furnished this information he noticed an increasing amount of hoodlums in the Raleigh area and he felt that they might have been imported to do him physical harm because of the information he had furnished to Governor Hodges. It was explained to Hurt that the above matter did not appear to be within the jurisdiction of the FBI and that the FBI could not provide him protection which was a matter for the local authorities. Hurt indicated that his only reason for calling was to be on record so that if anything happened to him, the authorities would know about it. It could not be determined from Hurt’s conversation if he was mentally unbalanced or inebriated. He did, however “drop” a number of names of former bureau employees with whom he claimed to be associated. The above is furnished for your information. There is no information in Bureau files identifiable with John Hurt See http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2 As established in my previous post, there is reason to believe that John Hurt and John Heard may have been the same person. If that indeed, is the case. Then all of the members of the Forum, Jim Root and all others, I would believe be interested in knowing that as of today the following document, [if indeed it is the same John Heard that Abraham Bolden mentions in his book in the immediate aftermath of the JFK Assassination], is postponed in full. See 180-10109-10264 subject line reference Sherman Skolnick, John Heard. http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/9863/jfksnew.txt My reasoning for believing that it is the same John Heard is due to the fact, that under a simple search at NARA, there are 3 hits for John Heard, and JFK Document 180-10109-10264 is one of them. There are 24 documents at NARA which come up when searching under John Hurt. At least one of these documents are also postponed in full. See http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/17253/jfksnew.txt JFK Document 180-10104-10325 Edited November 21, 2008 by Robert Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Thought this was interesting. http://historypodcast.blogspot.com/2006/09...ma-machine.html The Internet, a researchers best friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 RobertI do appreciate your continued research and presentation of material from this fertile field! Will you be in Dallas this year? Any idea how some sort of seminar on this particular area of research could be set up. It might be interesting for others who may find a reason to focus upon this particular topic? Jim Root My desire is to present what information I have discovered regarding O.N.I. and other topics at the heart of the JFK Assassination, here on the forum. While I think the conferences are a great medium for those who can travel there, I want everything to be here on the Forum in glorious black and white......The only problem I have is that a large majority of my posts are not responded to...... [not this thread, at least] Lack of interest? Who knows? But I am pushing fifty and I will get over it. I appreciate your kind comments..... Another area of interest with a Navy connection, is the September 1962 visit of Lee and Marina Oswald, George DeMohrenschildt and his wife Jeanne, visiting Mrs. Bruton, wife of Admiral Bruton, [who was away in Europe, on business for Collins Radio]. In John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, Armstrong noted that..... Bruton had been a lawyer in Virginia before becoming a Navy intelligence officer. Bruton's specialty was electronic surveillance and this is what he was bringing to Collins Radio. In April of 1963, the Wall Street Journal announced that Collins would construct a modern radio communications system linking Laos, Thailand, and South Vietnam. On November 1, 1963, the New York Times reported that Fidel Castro had captured a large boat called the Rex which was being leased to Collins Radio at the time. The next day, one of the captured Cuban exiles aboard the Rex confessed that the boat had been used to ferry arms into Cuba and that "the CIA organized all arms shipments" (New York Times 11/3/63)......... Continuing....In the Mary Ferrell database under the short bio of Admiral Bruton we see BRUTON, HENRY CHESTER Sources: WC Vol.9, p. 253; HSCA Vol. II, p. 314; HSCA Vol. XII, pp. 62, 188-194); Legend, Epstein, pp. 175, 177, 183 Mary's Comments: Retired Admiral. When he retired from Navy, he became a Vice President of Collins Radio. Friend of George deMohrenschildt who urged the Brutons to provide a home for Marina Oswald. Bruton's wife, Frances (Frannie), was ex-school teacher and was a talented artist. They had a son whose friend, Philip Weinert, also met the Oswalds. An FBI memorandum dated Sept. 15, 1942 stated that at that time De Mohrenschildt lived at 3022 Benton Street N.W. in Washington D.C. with Quentin Keyes whom the memorandum described as a member of British intelligence, and two American naval officers. The memorandum stated that de Mohrenschildt was very “Pro-Nazi.” In October 1942 the FBI interviewed the man who rented the Benton Street house, Paul Joachim. Joachim told the FBI that he was employed at the time in the Navy building. The other occupants of the house were Lt. Commander Harry Hull of the U.S. Navy and Quinton Quines, who Joachim said worked at the British Embassy. Joachim said de Mohrenschildt lived at the house during the end of May and all of June 1942. He said George DeMohrenschildt never made any statements about feelings toward any country and no statements which were pro-Nazi. ......So, even 20 years before the Kennedy assassination George de Mohrenschildt was associating with naval personnel....... In some ways, the DeMohrenschildt family was almost as enigmatic as the Oswalds...almost Robert, Admiral Brouton's speciality was radio communicaitons with nuke subs, not electronic surveillance, although they may be mutually associated. Do you have anything more on Philip Weinert? Thanks, BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Robert: Continuing....In the Mary Ferrell database under the short bio of Admiral Bruton we see BRUTON, HENRY CHESTER Sources: WC Vol.9, p. 253; HSCA Vol. II, p. 314; HSCA Vol. XII, pp. 62, 188-194); Legend, Epstein, pp. 175, 177, 183 Mary's Comments: Retired Admiral. When he retired from Navy, he became a Vice President of Collins Radio. Friend of George deMohrenschildt who urged the Brutons to provide a home for Marina Oswald. Bruton's wife, Frances (Frannie), was ex-school teacher and was a talented artist. They had a son whose friend, Philip Weinert, also met the Oswalds. Thanks for that Robert. When I finally located Bruton in Virgina and obtained his phone number I called him, but he had just died and a women who identified herself as his daughter was taking care of his effects. I didn't know he had a son, or that the son who knew Oswald, and that he had a friend named Philip Weinert, who "also met the Oswalds." Does anybody have anything on Bruton's son or his friend PHILIP WEINERT? I also think there may be a connection between the codebreakers/codemakers and the sub communications project Bruton was working on for Collins. Thanks, BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 In the course of his research Jim Root has come up with the names of two very interesting and significant players - Col. Alfred McCormack and Whitney H. Shepardson, who I thought deserved their own thread. Col. Alfred McCormack http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13852 Whitney H. Shepardson http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13809 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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