Are JFK researchers "weird people"?

[Tim Gratz]

Dawn Meredith wrote:

"Oh please Tim. You know way too much about Life mag to believe they seriously wanted a real investigation.

Are you for real? I don't mean this as an insult, but your level of knowledge and the things you post are often so in contradiction.????"

I remember that issue of Life. The call for the new investigation was the cover story.

But perhaps Dawn is right. Life was just kidding.

Of course, Josiah Thompson, a very well-respected early critic of the WC, has stated that Life gave him carte blanche, no editorial restrictions, and that Life would have loved to solve the "crime of the century". I heard Thompson make these remarks on C-span a few months ago (it was coverage of a conference on the anniversary of the WC (I think the conference was sponsored by James Lesar.)

Edited January 28, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Justin Martell]

I have been called weird for my interest in the JFK assassination more times than I care to admit. My generation ( I am 28 ) does not seem to care about anything and although I may be weird that is sad. My response to my friends when they ask me why I am reading another JFK book is, dont you find it odd that our government appointed a group to investigate the case further about the time we were born and that group found that there was a conspiracy to kill JFk and here now 28 years later NOTHING has been done about it. I dont know about you but I find that WEIRD.

[Richard J. Smith]

Am I not right to be concerned, or do all of you believe everything written in each of the "conspiracy theory" threads is based upon solid and incontestable research? Couldn't some of it fairly be characterized as "weird"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mike,

I have researched this case for years. What I have found, in addition to credible evidence of conspiracy, is a plethera of speculation, guesswork, personal diatribe, and an abnormal belief that there is a conspiracy under every rock and around every corner. There are misstatements, misrepresentations, and mistakes made by people who are(at least used to be) highly respected in the JFK research community. If you dare contest what they say, you are labeled as an agent, a disinformer, a "provocateur", or are flat out told "you are obviously wrong". We are to believe that because someone writes a book, or has a website, they have all the answers, and that a shadow government controls every single aspect of our lives. With regard to the JFK assassination, this has led all of us to be lumped together as "weird" or worse. One would think after reading some of this "research", the JFK conspiracy involved thousands of people in every area of American society.

There was a conspiracy in this case, and the evidence is out there. But when faked moon landings and controlled explosions at the WTC on 9/11 enter the discussion by overly paranoid individuals, and some intelligent others jump on the bandwagon and praise their "research", I take a step back, shake my head, and try to convince myself that I am not weird, or worse.

RJS

[Mike Tribe]

I have researched this case for years. What I have found, in addition to credible evidence of conspiracy, is a plethera of speculation, guesswork, personal diatribe, and an abnormal belief that there is a conspiracy under every rock and around every corner. There are misstatements, misrepresentations, and mistakes made by people who are(at least used to be) highly respected in the JFK research community. If you dare contest what they say, you are labeled as an agent, a disinformer, a "provocateur", or are flat out told "you are obviously wrong". We are to believe that because someone writes a book, or has a website, they have all the answers, and that a shadow government controls every single aspect of our lives.

John, that's all I was trying to suggest. Some of it's really strange, and some of our students simply haven't had the training to spot the difference between genuine research and the other stuff. A couple of years ago, one of my 9th Graders was researching Hitler and the Holocaust and came up with David Irving's website. He just didn't know enough to challenge what he read. All I'm saying is that we need to do a better job helping them develop the skills they need to make intelligent distinctions. I'm certainly not saying that these "conspiracies" shouldn't be investigated, just that 14-year-olds don't have the knowledge base or sophistication to judge the results...

[Richard J. Smith]

I have researched this case for years. What I have found, in addition to credible evidence of conspiracy, is a plethera of speculation, guesswork, personal diatribe, and an abnormal belief that there is a conspiracy under every rock and around every corner. There are misstatements, misrepresentations, and mistakes made by people who are(at least used to be) highly respected in the JFK research community. If you dare contest what they say, you are labeled as an agent, a disinformer, a "provocateur", or are flat out told "you are obviously wrong". We are to believe that because someone writes a book, or has a website, they have all the answers, and that a shadow government controls every single aspect of our lives.

... that's all I was trying to suggest. Some of it's really strange, and some of our students simply haven't had the training to spot the difference between genuine research and the other stuff. A couple of years ago, one of my 9th Graders was researching Hitler and the Holocaust and came up with David Irving's website. He just didn't know enough to challenge what he read. All I'm saying is that we need to do a better job helping them develop the skills they need to make intelligent distinctions. I'm certainly not saying that these "conspiracies" shouldn't be investigated, just that 14-year-olds don't have the knowledge base or sophistication to judge the results...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is really needed is a collection of the facts suggesting a conspiracy, not all the hype and innuendo, no speculation or opinion. Unfortunate that many researchers see their opinions as fact. There are excellent dissertations on the medical evidence, the single bullet theory, the photographic evidence, CIA involvement, various testimonies, etc. From what I've seen of the 85% in the US who believe in a conspiracy, they also have no clue as to the facts, or have a distorted view of the facts. There are many on line seminars here that are outstanding, and there are others that stretch the imagination. I don't think the actual assasination was carried out by a far reaching conspiracy involving every imaginable cross section of American life. In my opinion it was rather small and clandestine operation. The coverup however, became rather involved in order to protect those agencies and assets in the government that took part.

I agree that most 14 year olds don't have the knowledge base to judge, but then again, neither do many adults.

RJS

[Mike Perez]

I don't believe it is weird for a group of people to ask the basic questions in life. (Who, What,When, Where, How, and the big one Why) I am what I call a "Why Guy". I want to know "why" about everything. Sometimes I drive my wife nuts with my search for "Why". Not just about this subject but about everything. I hate the excuse " I don't know", because I believe that for every act there is a reason Why. It's just that sometimes people don't want to give you the reason why they did something or didn't do it. When my kids were growing up I never accepted the reason "I don't know", because if they did something wrong and I questioned them about it, I figured they were the only ones that knew "Why" they had done it.

So if that is weird----- so be it.

Mike

[Dawn Meredith]

Surely the answer the question in the header of this thread 'Are JFK researchers "weird people"?' must be 'some are and some aren't'.

I have witnessed a real mixture here of some dispassionate and interesting historical research but also an amount of what borders on compulsive obsessive behaviour.... the inability of some (now no longer with us) to cope with contary opinion also suggests a degree of paranoia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_________________________________________--

What about the people who are "still with us" who did not observe the rules and resorted to name calling and profanity?

What about the Paul Tequala's (sp) who ask the same LN question repeatedly?

Or the Tim Gratz insistance that Castro did it, regardless of the evidence against this, which John has pointed out, as had "some who are no longer with us" before that?

So, we who care about this event are obsessive. I don't mind being called either "weird" or "obsessive" when it comes to trying to solve this case. Personally I think it's the people who don't care about this who are "weird", but I don't blame them when the CIA- controlled media has so successfully cover-up the truth.

Dawn

[Dawn Meredith]

I have researched this case for years. What I have found, in addition to credible evidence of conspiracy, is a plethera of speculation, guesswork, personal diatribe, and an abnormal belief that there is a conspiracy under every rock and around every corner. There are misstatements, misrepresentations, and mistakes made by people who are(at least used to be) highly respected in the JFK research community. If you dare contest what they say, you are labeled as an agent, a disinformer, a "provocateur", or are flat out told "you are obviously wrong". We are to believe that because someone writes a book, or has a website, they have all the answers, and that a shadow government controls every single aspect of our lives.

... that's all I was trying to suggest. Some of it's really strange, and some of our students simply haven't had the training to spot the difference between genuine research and the other stuff. A couple of years ago, one of my 9th Graders was researching Hitler and the Holocaust and came up with David Irving's website. He just didn't know enough to challenge what he read. All I'm saying is that we need to do a better job helping them develop the skills they need to make intelligent distinctions. I'm certainly not saying that these "conspiracies" shouldn't be investigated, just that 14-year-olds don't have the knowledge base or sophistication to judge the results...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is really needed is a collection of the facts suggesting a conspiracy, not all the hype and innuendo, no speculation or opinion. Unfortunate that many researchers see their opinions as fact. There are excellent dissertations on the medical evidence, the single bullet theory, the photographic evidence, CIA involvement, various testimonies, etc. From what I've seen of the 85% in the US who believe in a conspiracy, they also have no clue as to the facts, or have a distorted view of the facts. There are many on line seminars here that are outstanding, and there are others that stretch the imagination. I don't think the actual assasination was carried out by a far reaching conspiracy involving every imaginable cross section of American life. In my opinion it was rather small and clandestine operation. The coverup however, became rather involved in order to protect those agencies and assets in the government that took part.

I agree that most 14 year olds don't have the knowledge base to judge, but then again, neither do many adults.

RJS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

________________________________

Richard and Mike:

I think in order to educate the public we have to do several things;

1. Cease all arguments on who did it, how many shots were fired, and all the fringe stuff , like UFO's, stay clear of the lunatic fringe element.

2. Whether it was CIA or LBJ or NWO it was NOT LHO!!.

3. EXPLAIN in detail exactly what had to occur for the SBT to be "real", the utter impossiblity of this, with a photo of CE 399, and finally

4. Explain two things that happened to change our government pre JFK:

1. The creation of the CIA by Reinhart Gahlan and all that this caused.

2. Operation Mockingbird: The CIA total control of the media.

If we can get people to understand all of this, then they will know that their government lied to them and how they did so.

WE must do this. The government is NEVER going to. The media is NEVER going to, so it is us to us, "we the people". I fully support the efforts being made for the creation of a Grand Jury. That is what we need to focus our efforts on. (IMHO)

Dawn

I also think that we should each pick a member of both houses and write letters to them. You might be surprised at the responses you receive. I have spent my adult life doing this and one of my favorite responses is from the great Frank Church.

[JL Allen]

I just ran across this site this morning and was unsure where to place it. Individual pages can be searched with "Nodule 0", "Nodule 1", etc. It is the work of A. J. Weberman. A clickable index is found at :

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule35.htm

The quantity and scope is astonishing. It seems to cover almost any aspect imaginable. Extensive documentation - even rare photographs of obscure suspects.

This is an amazing site and the quantity of work he has done is mind-boggling. I was going to save the 1st nodule in Works and it was 50 pages long! (After I'd already increased the margins to the edges of the page)!!! (30-some nodules)

Edited January 29, 2005 by JL Allen

[Shanet Clark]

I have been referring people to Weberman's site for some time.

His evidence concerning the Rifles and Bullets found in the TBSD

is very strong, and much of it is self evident. Unlike Lancer and

some material presented here, he doesn't add infantile circles,

lines and heavy handed "guides' to interpreting the photos....

He was the original "Hunt/Sturgis = Tramp 1/Tramp 2" theorist,

so some of his core conclusions have eroded in time, but the

evidence he presents really forces me to think critically............

AS FOR LIFE MAGAZINE, a call for new investigations, when it comes from

a compromised (mockingbird) organ of propaganda is suspect.

The call for a new investigation should be seen more as a call for another

round of selective leaks and "spin control" such as happened in 1977-78.

LIFE just wanted to be a leading part of any new discussion and steer

people into the fall-back cover story after the Oswald legend was blown....

DAWN --- good post, but you may be guilty of what you oppose.

You can't say the CIA was created by Reinhard Gehlen and hold people's

trust. Allen Dulles did meet with Nazi spymaster Gehlen and absorb

his German Intelligence structure into the US intelligence structure.

Nazi spies, scientists and commandos were absorbed by the Occupying

Power in 1945-48, and that is a grotesque and highly classified piece

of American history, but Gehlen was not the actual founder of the CIA...

he was just a pawn in a game dominated by AMERICAN Yale and Wall Street interests;

i.e., Skull and Bones, the Sullivan and Cromwell NY law firm, Dillon- Read Co.,

Harriman Union Bank (Bush interests) and Dupont/Standard Oil....

Gehlen and the Nazis worked for them, via Dulles, Anderson, Wisner, etc...

(damn, now I AM rambling about a vast conspiracy....a very real one)

Edited January 29, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Dawn Meredith]

I have been referring people to Weberman's site for some time.

His evidence concerning the Rifles and Bullets found in the TBSD

is very strong, and much of it is self evident. Unlike Lancer and

some material presented here, he doesn't add infantile circles,

lines and heavy handed "guides' to interpreting the photos....

He was the original "Hunt/Sturgis = Tramp 1/Tramp 2" theorist,

so some of his core conclusions have eroded in time, but the

evidence he presents really forces me to think critically............

AS FOR LIFE MAGAZINE, a call for new investigations, when it comes from

a compromised (mockingbird) organ of propaganda is suspect.

The call for a new investigation should be seen more as a call for another

round of selective leaks and "spin control" such as happened in 1977-78.

LIFE just wanted to be a leading part of any new discussion and steer

people into the fall-back cover story after the Oswald legend was blown....

DAWN --- good post, but you may be guilty of what you oppose.

You can't say the CIA was created by Reinhard Gehlen and hold people's

trust. Allen Dulles did meet with Nazi spymaster Gehlen and absorb

his German Intelligence structure into the US intelligence structure.

Nazi spies, scientists and commandos were absorbed by the Occupying

Power in 1945-48, and that is a grotesque and highly classified piece

of American history, but Gehlen was not the actual founder of the CIA...

he was just a pawn in a game dominated by AMERICAN Yale and Wall Street interests;

i.e., Skull and Bones, the Sullivan and Cromwell NY law firm, Dillon- Read Co.,

Harriman Union Bank (Bush interests) and Dupont/Standard Oil....

Gehlen and the Nazis worked for them, via Dulles, Anderson, Wisner, etc...

(damn, now I AM rambling about a vast conspiracy....a very real one)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

___________________________

Shanet: While I totally agree with you re Skull and Bones, I would hardly call Gahlen a "pawn". He was the person chosen by our government, Hitler's top spymaster, brough here in the uniform of a US General on 8/22/45, met with "Wild Bill" Donavan (Of OSS) and Dulles, in secret, and basically offered his knowledge of intelligence on certain conditions, inter alia: 1. complete automony over its activities, 2. his intelligence operation could only be used against Russia, (our former ally in Wold War 11) 3. ability to control the intell. of the new German government, once it was established, and 4. he never be asked to do anything against "German interests". That hardly qualifies him as a "pawn", tho as I said I totally agree with your Skull and Bones analysis. More than one evil power that was/is put the CIA together.

Dawn

[Shanet Clark]

[Dawn,

Did you read the news story today?

The CIA has blocked release of files mandated by US law,

concerning the post war Nazi-US connection.

If the public commission can't prove a Nazi was a war

criminal before he went into US service, the CIA won't release

the files...they have already released 1.2 million pages of files,

but are holding out hundreds of thousands more....

it was in the NY Times today.

OPERATION PAPERCLIP, OPERATION ASHCAN and OPERATION DUSTBIN

were apparently much larger and more heinous than many of us thought...

and the records are still suppressed.

[Mike Tribe]

From a recent "conspiracy" thread:

The article below--originally written and published on Jan. 11, 2005--points to several anomalies related to the earthquake near Sumatra and ensuing Tsunamis over a thousand miles from the epicenter. In the article I present a theory that the quake may have been manmade and that Israel had a motive for sponsoring such an act which resulted in the deaths of nearly a 100,000 Moslems. People who are unable or unwilling to view Israel in a critical or objective manner are strongly encouraged not to read the following article:

Critical Thought on Tsunami

http://www.jfkmontreal.com/Indonesia/Quake.htm

Salvador Astucia

Weird, or what?

[Mike Tribe]

A quote from the article cited:

It appears that several nuclear bombs may have been dropped in the Andaman Sea, the entry point to the Golden Triangle. If the nuclear bomb hypothesis turns out to be true, that means the target was probably the opium-rich Golden Triangle.

Now I'm capable of discerning that the suggestion that the disaster in Asia was some sort of Zionist plot is a rather sick fantasy. But I'm still concerned that less experienced readers -- like my students -- might even believe some of this stuff unless we find ways to show them how to tell the difference...

Or perhaps it's all true! Perhaps

there is significant evidence which points to Israel alone as the true sponsor [of a secret nuclear strike on Indonesia], possibly with the assistance of a handful of traitors within the FBI, CIA, military, and related entities, but without the consent or knowledge of President Bush or most of his top advisers.

Or perhaps it was the tooth fairy...

[Shanet Clark]

This is the heart of the linked story we are talking about.

I AM NOT THE AUTHOR OR PROPONENT OF THE FOLLOWING

but agree with Mike Tribe that this is the worst kind of

sociopathological anti-humanist "conspiracy theory"

here is the pivotal paragraph, somewhat on our topic.....

QUOTE

If the Israelis are planning to pay assassins to kill a sitting American president in exchange for opium produced in the Golden Triangle, it probably wouldn't be the first time it's happened. In my book, Opium Lords: Israel, The Golden Triangle and the Kennedy Assassination, I explain how Jewish mobster Meyer Lansky recruited French Corsican heroin traffickers—the Guerini Family—to supply the assassins to kill Kennedy. As payment, the French Corsicans were allowed to return to Southeast Asia and re-establish their heroin trafficking enterprise. (See Footnote 1 for a description of how the Corsican drug traffickers were driven from Southeast Asia by the CIA during the Eisenhower Administration.) This required the removal of South Vietnamese Prime Minister Ngo Dinh Diem who was assassinated—in a CIA backed coup—three weeks before Kennedy was killed. Diem's death was a pre-cursor to Kennedy's assassination. Similarly, a nuclear bombing campaign on the waters leading to the Golden Triangle may be a pre-cursor to a planned assassination of Bush.

UNQUOTE

Just keeping you informed of whats going around the internet today.

The theme is that Israel dropped nuclear weapons in the Malaysian

waters in a failed attempt to destroy the opium triangle and caused

the Indian ocean tsunami.......

yes, that is weird, but manifestly and self-evidently so....