Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum

[Denis Morissette]

Shanet,

How is it fair and just for a teacher like Ernst Zundel to be kept in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT for two years (!) for this "thought crime?" Serial killers aren't treated that harshly!

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It just shows how much power the Jews have in Canada! Welcome to Canada!

[Mike Tribe]

This comment illustrates the sort of thing I feared when this can of worms was opened. I think the statement is racist and most regretable.

[Ian A. Kerr]

Shanet,

How is it fair and just for a teacher like Ernst Zundel to be kept in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT for two years (!) for this "thought crime?" Serial killers aren't treated that harshly!

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It just shows how much power the Jews have in Canada! Welcome to Canada!

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Denis,

Are you expressing an opinion, or does your comment have any basis in fact ?

I encourage you to look into Zundel's case a little more carefully before you hook your wagon to it. Zundel was convicted by jury , under sect. 107 of the Canadian Criminal Code which (paraphrasing ) deals with the dissemination of unproveable ( false ) information which may tend to cause public mischief or injury.

The salient point is that , in the minds of the jury, Zundel was unable to prove that the information he was propagating was true - ie ) that the Holocaust never happened; there is a Worldwide Zionist Conspiracy, et cetera. Therefore he was guilty causing injury to those that he spoke/published against.

Zundel, and his following prefer to see his conviction as a violation of his right to free speech, when in fact , in Canada ( and in most other civilized countries ) there is no such thing as absolute free speech - it is better compared to slander/libel against an identifiable group- except that it's a criminal offense.

FWIW-

- serial killers are regularly kept in protective custody inside prison - for their own protection.

- Jim Keegstra was the teacher ....

Ian

[Denis Morissette]

Shanet,

How is it fair and just for a teacher like Ernst Zundel to be kept in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT for two years (!) for this "thought crime?" Serial killers aren't treated that harshly!

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It just shows how much power the Jews have in Canada! Welcome to Canada!

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Denis,

The salient point is that , in the minds of the jury, Zundel was unable to prove that the information he was propagating was true - ie ) that the Holocaust never happened; there is a Worldwide Zionist Conspiracy, et cetera. Therefore he was guilty causing injury to those that he spoke/published against.

Ian

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Ian, what "injury" are you talking about exactly? Give me names of people who have been "injured" because of Zundel.

[Don Jeffries]

Ian,

You and I both know that if this were any other belief, every person on this forum would be outraged that someone was being imprisoned for stating it. It's irrlevant if a jury found that Zundel couldn't "prove" his opinion; since when should anyone have to "prove" their ideas and opinons? As I stated before, if "denying the holocaust" is a ridiculous and uncredible position, it should be easy to demonstrate that and those advocating it should soon be rendered powerless and obsolete. Censoring them and even throwing some of them into prison doesn't prove they're wrong; in fact, it makes people like me take notice, sympathize with them and further investigate their claims. How far would you carry this Orwellian "thought crime" concept? Should those who think FDR knew of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor ahead of time be imprisoned? Should it be against the law to say the moon flights were a hoax? Should an American be able to talk freely about President Bush's druggie, alcoholic past? Should we outlaw all criticism of the war in Iraq? Finally, should someone be imprisoned for "denying" the "official" reality of the Warren Report?

[Ian A. Kerr]

Ian,

You and I both know that if this were any other belief, every person on this forum would be outraged that someone was being imprisoned for stating it. It's irrlevant if a jury found that Zundel couldn't "prove" his opinion; since when should anyone have to "prove" their ideas and opinons? As I stated before, if "denying the holocaust" is a ridiculous and uncredible position, it should be easy to demonstrate that and those advocating it should soon be rendered powerless and obsolete. Censoring them and even throwing some of them into prison doesn't prove they're wrong; in fact, it makes people like me take notice, sympathize with them and further investigate their claims. How far would you carry this Orwellian "thought crime" concept? Should those who think FDR knew of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor ahead of time be imprisoned? Should it be against the law to say the moon flights were a hoax? Should an American be able to talk freely about President Bush's druggie, alcoholic past? Should we outlaw all criticism of the war in Iraq? Finally, should someone be imprisoned for "denying" the "official" reality of the Warren Report?

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Don,

I encourage you to look further into it, I have - everyone should.

I find most of the examples that you cite to be out of context, with the exception

of the one re: Pres. Bush - he can sue if the statement is libelous or slanderous.

The fact that the jury decided the way it did could not be more relevant, especially for Mr. Zundel. The fact that Mr. Zundel's convictions could result in increased interest in his " cause " is not a problem that is lost on anyone knowledgeable about the subject. However, to do nothing , is nothing less than appeasement - now, that road has been well travelled before, hasn't it ?.

Ian

[Denis Morissette]

This sending this man to jail will be forever a shame on Canada. I'm sure you're proud of this, Ian.

[Bernice Moore]

The History of the Zundel case in Canada and the United States.

Please read all, if interested......

I am very proud of Canada..for taking such a stand, and opening itself to this type of criticism, to protect all of it's citizens....

http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp...d=2&item=zundel

[Ian A. Kerr]

This sending this man to jail will be forever a shame on Canada. I'm sure you're proud of this, Ian.

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Denis,

In case I haven't been clear in my other posts, I regard the actions of the government as the enforcement of the responsiblity that accompanies the right.

Am I proud of this ? If I had to assign one feeling to the entire subject , it would be sadness - a profound sadness.

Ian

[Richard J. Smith]

"It just shows how much power the Jews have in Canada! Welcome to Canada!"

This comment illustrates the sort of thing I feared when this can of worms was opened. I think the statement is racist and most regretable.

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Mike,

I couldn't agree more. I read the posts in this thread, and tried hard to stay out of it. I was afraid of what I might say, although others might defend my right to say it. When that comment came out, I thought to myself "I knew this would happen". The door was opened. Somehow I don't think Patrick Henry had this type of thing in mind when he spoke in defense of civil liberty. If any #&%$@! wants to investigate whether or not the Holocaust did in fact happen, let them start with the films and photos, eyewitness testimony at Nuremburg, and the Wannsee Protocol. Perhaps, as in A Clockwork Orange, they should be strapped to a chair, have their eyes forced open, and be made to watch Schindler's List, or better yet, the actual films taken at the camps. Just my opinion, since I have every right to voice it.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

http://www.ushmm.org/

If there is to be a discussion on the Education Forum, it should be held in a place other than the JFK forum, so that people who have come here for the express purpose of exchanging information about JFK won't have to see it. This thread should be moved to that location.

RJS

[Richard J. Smith]

I was already stopping after Mr. Dankbaar left, but now...well, this situation is far worse.

G

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Gibson,

May I ask why you decided to stop posting here after "Mr. Dankbaar left"?

RJS

[Ian A. Kerr]

If there is to be a discussion on the Education Forum, it should be held in a place other than the JFK forum, so that people who have come here for the express purpose of exchanging information about JFK won't have to see it. This thread should be moved to that location.

RJS

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Richard,

I agree.

Ian

[Don Jeffries]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by some of the replies here, but I still am.

Why should any American support the imprisonment of a non-violent individual simply because he holds an unpopular opinion and insists on stating that opinion publicly? I maintain that this issue is the ONLY issue that brings out this kind of hard-line reaction in otherwise open-minded people. Well, okay, maybe child pornography; but at least we all recognize the obvious danger to children posed by that. Even there, though, I would venture to bet that the idea of NAMBLA having the right to exist freely in America doesn't bring out the same sort of passions that the whole question of "holocaust denial" does. In fact, how does everyone feel about NAMBLA being a legal organization when many "holocaust deniers" are in danger of losing their freedom? Denis, is there an outfit similar to NAMBLA in Canada? If something like that is permitted freely to exist in the same country where non-violent political "extremists" like Ernst Zundel linger in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT in prison, that's a complete outrage.

Is there no one on this forum interested enough in civil liberties, and basic human rights, to just simply state that it is wrong to make the disputing of any part of history illegal? We allow people to claim the likes of Abraham Lincoln as gay, some 140 years after his death. We allow people to claim that the earth is flat. We allow people to question the existence of Jesus, of God himself, and the minute details of every war in the history of mankind, but we cannot permit the "denial" that the Germans exterminated six million jews? What is so special about this one event, that it cannot even be discussed rationally, let alone disputed? Many millions died in WWII, all over the world. The casualty figures from Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still in dispute; have the Japanese the right to claim an "official" figure, and demand the world adhere to that, with no dissention allowed? Would any of you be up in arms if some "extremist" historian came out with a study that said the number of millions killed by the communists during the last century were greatly exaggerated? Of course not; no one on the left or right would dream of imprisoning a historian, or any other citizen, because they espoused a controversial view of any particular part of history. Except one, that is; the nazi extermination program against the jews.

I hope some of you will stop focusing on the holocaust, or Zundel's trial. Focus on the fact that you are advocating the imprisonment of a human being because he maintains that a historical event didn't happen the way that most of his fellow citizens say it did. If you don't think that's a "thought crime," then you all better re-read your Orwell.

[Dawn Meredith]

I share your concerns. Looking at his website Salvador would appear to be a Holocaust Revisionist and probably a neo-Nazi as well.

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Gary:

You and other people keep bringing up issues that I have not mentioned in this forum. In an American court of law, if an attorney for one side brings up a particular topic, then discussion on that topic is fair game for the opposing attorney. Why did you mention Holocaust Revisionism? Are you willing to discuss it? If this were a court of law, your comment would make the Holocaust a topic of open debate.

So I will put it to the moderators. Will you (moderators) grant me permission--in advance--to start a discussion thread about Holocaust Revisionism? The main topics of discussion would be as follows:

- Is the death count (six million Jews) accurate?

- Were gas chambers the primary means of killing inmates in Nazi camps?

Seriously, I do not expect the moderators to allow such a discussion, regardless of any evidence I might produce. But sometimes making a request is just as important as the response received. I only ask the question because Mr. Buell introduced the topic of the Holocaust as a means of discrediting me. But if given an opportunity to back up his comments with evidence, I have every confidence that he would suddenly fall mute.

Regards.

Salvador Astucia

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-Yes it is accurate

-No that is not the only way the prisoners were murdered. Most prisoners from the Eastern Front were simply shot and buried in mass graves

Since when has Holocaust Denial had a place on this forum?

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_____________________________----

Holocause denial is NOT welcome on this forum, nor is any form of hatred, period.

I'm with Gibson , Shanet and Gary.

You are not going to "GET a green light" here, find another forum to post your venom on, this one is for EDUCATION not disinformation. And this forum specifically is re the assassination of JFK and that debate. If you like Hitler there are plenty of hate forums for you I am sure. Find one.

Shanet: Ignore this person and he will go away, continue to "debate him" and he will continue this ugliness. He's here ONLY as a diversion. As are, sadly, some others.

Dawn

[Mike Tribe]

And this forum specifically is re the assassination of JFK and that debate

Actually, I think you'll find that it was originally meant for rather wider themes than just debating the manner in which JFK met his end. I agree that, just recently, one could easily make the mistake, on visiting the site, of thinking that this was the forum's exclusive purpose, but...

You're absolutely right in your other statements, however.