The Odio Incident

[Tim Gratz]

If Max Holland is still working on his defense of the WC Report, it shall be interesting to see how he treats the Odio incident now that it is established that Odio was telling the truth about an incident that certainly deserved the most careful investigation.

[Tim Gratz]

9/11 and 11/12

Here is a story by Joan Mellen as published (by Mark Howell) in the September 2, 2005 "Key West Citizen": (She is, of course, the author of the soon-to-be published "A Farewell to Justice"):

Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer’s recent revelation that he had informed Philip Zelikow, staff director of the 9/11 Commission, that the Able Danger intelligence unit had identified Mohammed Atta and an Al Qaeda cell at least a year before the attack invites a parallel with a presidential commission 42 years ago. Colonel Shaffer has opened a window onto the failure of responsibility of not one, but two presidential commissions.

The 9/11 Commission’s ignoring the Able Danger information recalls the Warren Commission, which discovered in its final days that Lee Harvey Oswald had visited a Cuban exile and former law student named Sylvia Odio in Dallas in late September, 1963.

Just as the 9/11 Commission not only did not investigate the Able Danger warning but didn’t even mention it, so the Warren Commission never investigated this visit. As Mrs. Odio testified, she was told that Oswald had remarked, “President Kennedy should have been assassinated after the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans should have done that...it is so easy to do it.”

The Warren Commission had not been informed of the CIA’s attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro. Had they been so briefed, the conclusions of the Warren Report might have been modified, just as Lieutenant Colonel Shaffer’s information, tested, might have altered the findings of the 9/11 Commission.

In my own research, I discovered that Robert F. Kennedy was organizing his own clandestine plots against Fidel Castro. Bobby’s instruction to the team of Cubans he had assembled in Miami was twofold. It was to discover a means of ridding the Kennedy administration of Castro. It was no less to protect his brother from the murderous impulses of an anti-Castro Cuban incensed by John F. Kennedy’s refusal to support the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Among those closest to Bobby was a man still living in Florida today, Angelo Murgado, who, during the summer of 1963, traveled to New Orleans on Bobby’s behalf. Moving among “Castro’s agents, double agents, and Cubans working for the C.I.A.,” as he explained to me in Miami recently, Murgado hoped to “neutralize” a future assassin.

In New Orleans, Mr. Murgado met Oswald. Hitherto unreported is that Bobby Kennedy became aware of Oswald — before the assassination. Bobby discovered that Oswald was working for the FBI, a fact brought to the attention of the Warren Commission and confirmed for the House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 1970s by an FBI employee, William Walter.

“If the FBI is controlling Oswald,” Bobby reasoned, according to Murgado, “he’s no problem.” Operating covertly, Bobby underestimated who Oswald was and ceased to make him a major target of his concern. Bobby knew “something was cooking in New Orleans,” Murgado says. But Bobby urged “caution.” He did not share what he knew with those charged with protecting the President.

Sylvia Odio says that three men traveled from New Orleans to visit her; two were Cubans, the other "Leon Oswald," implying that the three were in the car together. According to Angelo Murgado, however, he and his companion drove from New Orleans together to visit Odio only to discover Oswald already there, seated in Odio's apartment. That Angelo and his companion both knew Oswald, there is no doubt.

Their ostensible objective was to obtain help for their anti-Castro efforts. Murgado trusted his companion, referred to in the Warren Report as “Leopoldo,” because not only was he a fellow veteran of the Bay of Pigs, but his brother was running for mayor of Miami. He was respectable.

Out of Murgado’s hearing, the next day “Leopoldo” phoned Mrs. Odio and told her how “Leon” Oswald had talked about murdering President Kennedy. “Leon” is “kind of nuts,” Leopoldo said.

Placing Oswald in the company of an associate of Bobby Kennedy, in an incident that suggests foreknowledge of the assassination, created a trap that would silence Bobby forever. Meanwhile Murgado had been betrayed by a man he thought he could trust, a man, it appears, who was involved in arranging for Oswald to be blamed for the assassination. The men who visited Mrs. Odio with Oswald are identified here for the first time.

After the assassination, recognizing Oswald, of course, Angelo's reaction was visceral, his distress overwhelming. He vomitted.

“Leopoldo” was Bernardo de Torres, who testified before the House Select Committee on Assassinations, which accepted the CIA demand that he be granted partial immunity, so that he was not questioned about the period of time leading up to the assassination.

It may be that the assassination of President Kennedy could have been prevented, just as the people uncovered by the Able Danger team might have been apprehended by the FBI had the Bureau been allowed that opportunity. Instead, according to Lieutenant Colonel Shaffer, Defense Department lawyers insisted that the FBI not be briefed at all.

That Bobby Kennedy not only knew about Oswald, but perceived him as a threat, is shocking. That Bobby put Oswald under surveillance, only to conclude that Oswald posed no danger because he was just involved in the plots against Castro, is a chilling precedent for a lack of accountability on the part of our government officials and commissions — which, it now appears, have persisted in keeping the citizenry less than fully informed.l

Footnote by Solares Hill investigator Timothy J. Gratz: Following is the relevant paragraph [113] from the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1975: “The scope of its investigation in the Odio incident was limited as a result of the inadequate investigation performed by the FBI and the Warren Commission at the time. The lack of immediate recognition of the significance of the Odio incident produced a far from comprehensive investigation at the only time a comprehensive and perhaps, fruitful investigation would have been possible.”

Regarding Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, the military intelligence operative who collaborated with Rep. Curt Weldon (R-PA) to draw attention to the Able Danger intelligence unit, Shaffer gave an interview in the Aug. 23 issue of Government Security News that described Able Danger’s origins, explained how it tracked terrorists as they visited individual mosques around the world, discussed the CIA’s refusal to cooperate with the program, acknowledged the supporting technical role played by the Raytheon Company, and described Able Danger’s ultimate demise.

Edited September 7, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Lee Forman]

This is somewhat fantastic Tim.

It raises a lot of questions, yet provides many answers at the same time - perhaps particularly in regards to RFK's lack of a real response following his brother's murder - 'One of your guys did it,' and what Hemming related to Bobby's visit and 201 files, another secret plan despite reproachment, etc.

Lot's to think about. Great post.

BTW - Santeria - are you familiar at all with what it entails? As I have been informed from one of my Cuban friends, the names of the dead from the 'Bahia de Cochinos' are still invoked today. That was no small matter.

- lee

[Tim Gratz]

Lee, Robert Kennedy's remark to Harry Williams, "One of your guys did it", may very well be quite important. Note it is recorded as a declaratory statement and not a question.

According to Gerry Hemming, RFK had, more than once I believe, flown in to inspect one of the Cuban exile camps and may very well have seen Oswald or even shaken hands with him. (Joan Mellen told us she tried to confirm this but was unable to do so and therefore did not include that story in her book.)

Gerry Hemming is convinced that Robert Kennedy recognized Oswald's name and/or face when his name and photo were broadcast. Of course, when he said, "One of your guys did it", he did not know at that time that (as most of us believe) Oswald was not the shooter but only a patsy.

The revelation of some of the truth of the Odio incident is certainly a development the importance of which can scarcely be over-emphasized.

[Bill Sanders]

James Richards had de Torres pegged as Leopoldo a few years ago. The question is, when did de Torres start running Oswald.

Bill S.

[Nick Bartetzko]

Is Bernardo de Torres still alive? If so, I wonder if he will be interviewed by Mellon with the information that Murgado has "outed" him. The link between de Torres and whoever had him handle Oswald would be a huge breakthrough. Lee Forman, do you have any photos of de Torres? Wasn't he suspected of by in Dealey Plaza on 11-22?

[James Richards]

Is Bernardo de Torres still alive? If so, I wonder if he will be interviewed by Mellon with the information that Murgado has "outed" him. The link between de Torres and whoever had him handle Oswald would be a huge breakthrough. Lee Forman, do you have any photos of de Torres? Wasn't he suspected of by in Dealey Plaza on 11-22?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to jump in here, Nick.

De Torres is still alive. The photograph below shows from left to right, William Seymour, Dennis Harber, Rudolfo Fasco and Bernardo De Torres.

The story goes that De Torres posed as a photographer in Dealey Plaza. He has snaps of the assassination locked away in a safe deposit box. If true, that would be his insurance.

FWIW.

James

[Nick Bartetzko]

Thanks, James. With all the films and photos we have of Dealey, are there any that you think might be De Torres as photographer?

[John Dolva]

as an aside :

because sturgis and detorres had very similar noses and ears, i wonder if they were related?

(in the far left image i gave detorres a shave and a 'wig')

edit:: images moved to pure speculation topic

Edited September 4, 2005 by John Dolva

[James Richards]

Thanks, James. With all the films and photos we have of Dealey, are there any that you think might be De Torres as photographer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Nick,

I did have a good look at the extant collection of Dealey Plaza images and nothing jumped out at me.

Having said that, below is a photograph that shows Bernardo De Torres in the black cap. The guy on the left is Alfredo Duran. I believe I have found him in Dealey Plaza as he was photographed post shooting mingling with the crowd.

FWIW.

John,

De Torres and Sturgis are not related.

James

Edited September 4, 2005 by James Richards

[John Dolva]

I realise I'm probably out on a limb here but...

(sturgis with detorres' beanie and pencilthin)

edit :: plus similarities of nose ear and hairline.

Edited September 4, 2005 by John Dolva

[Tim Gratz]

Nick wrote:

Is Bernardo de Torres still alive? If so, I wonder if he will be interviewed by Mellon with the information that Murgado has "outed" him. The link between de Torres and whoever had him handle Oswald would be a huge breakthrough.

Nick, for purposes of clarity, it is not clear to me that Murgado himself has identified deTorres as "Leopoldo". I think we will have to await the publication of the book to see how Professor Mellen indentified Leopoldo as deTorres.

I'd also like to point out (reiterate) that if, as both Larry and I suspect, Oswald was working for the government attempting to identify people either pro- or anti-Castro who might be interested in harming Kennedy, he might very well have made the statement that Leopoldo attributed to him when Leopoldo called Odio back a day or two after the meeting. Thus, it is not necessarily true that the Leopoldo character fabricated the statement to frame Oswald.

And if it was Oswald's intention to protect Kennedy, there might be a reason why he was associating with a friend of the Kennedy family. Maybe we have things backward. Maybe Murgado, not deTorres, was assisting someone in monitoring Oswald. I raise this only as a possibility.

But the incident certainly deserves additional investigation to determine how it fits into the conspiracy.

[Pat Speer]

Just a hunch: Murgado lied through his teeth. Insinuating Bobby into the Odio incident is just the kind of thing the Bringuiers of the world specialized in. I'm extremely skeptical about this new development. If anyone is ever able to show that Bobby knew about Oswald before 11-22 1963 I'll eat my hat, which means I'll have to buy one first.. The "one of your guys" comment was made while Bobby was lashing out and in shock. On the morning after the assassination, he is reported to have asked McCone if the CIA did it. Days later he told Schlesinger it was either Castro or the gangsters. He knew nothing but suspected everything. If he'd have heard of Oswald, known Oswald, or recognized him from the camps, he would have used this information and conducted his own investigation. Don't swallow this new info whole.

How much do we really know about Murgado? If he'd have heard via Eduardo and Artime that Second Naval was a scam and that Attwood was talking to Lechuga, what would have been his response????

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, as you know, I greatly respect your analytical abilities and I also appreciate the value of hunches when they come from people of intellect and sound judgment.

In response to your last post, however, I question why Murgado would lie about this incident after all of these years. What would be his motivation to do so?

I understand from Gerry Hemming that Murgado was a long-time friend of the Kennedys.

Of course I have not interviewed the man, but would like to do so. If he indeed was at Odio's door with Oswald, it could lead to potentially new lines of inquiry. I do assume that Professor Mellen assessed Murgado as a credible person.

Query do you agree with those people who believe that deTorres was Leopoldo?

[Pat Speer]

9/11 and 11/12

Here is a story by Joan Mellen as published (by Mark Howell) in the September 2, 2005 "Key West Citizen":  (She is, of course, the author of the soon-to-be published "A Farewell to Justice"):

In my own research, I discovered that Robert F. Kennedy was organizing his own clandestine plots against Fidel Castro. Bobby’s instruction to the team of Cubans he had assembled in Miami was twofold. It was to discover a means of ridding the Kennedy administration of Castro. It was no less to protect his brother from the murderous impulses of an anti-Castro Cuban incensed by John F. Kennedy’s refusal to support the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Among those closest to Bobby was a man still living in Florida today, Angelo Murgado, who, during the summer of 1963, traveled to New Orleans on Bobby’s behalf. Moving among “Castro’s agents, double agents, and Cubans working for the C.I.A.,” as he explained to me in Miami recently, Murgado hoped to “neutralize” a future assassin.

In New Orleans, Mr. Murgado met Oswald. Hitherto unreported is that Bobby Kennedy became aware of Oswald —  before the assassination. Bobby discovered that Oswald was working for the FBI, a fact brought to the attention of the Warren Commission and confirmed for the House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 1970s by an FBI employee, William Walter.

“If the FBI is controlling Oswald,” Bobby reasoned, according to Murgado, “he’s no problem.” Operating covertly, Bobby underestimated who Oswald was and ceased to make him a major target of his concern. Bobby knew “something was cooking in New Orleans,” Murgado says. But Bobby urged “caution.” He did not share what he knew with those charged with protecting the President.

Angelo Murgado and a fellow Cuban traveled with Oswald from New Orleans to Dallas where they visited Sylvia Odio. Their ostensible objective was to obtain help for their anti-Castro efforts. Murgado trusted his companion, referred to in the Warren Report as “Leopoldo,” because not only was he a fellow veteran of the Bay of Pigs, but his brother was running for mayor of Miami. He was respectable.

Out of Murgado’s hearing, the next day “Leopoldo” phoned Mrs. Odio and told her how “Leon” Oswald had talked about murdering President Kennedy. “Leon” is “kind of nuts,” Leopoldo said.

Placing Oswald in the company of an associate of Bobby Kennedy, in an incident that suggests foreknowledge of the assassination, created a trap that would silence Bobby forever. Meanwhile Murgado had been betrayed by a man he thought he could trust, a man, it appears, who was involved in arranging for Oswald to be blamed for the assassination. The men who visited Mrs. Odio with Oswald are identified here for the first time.

“Leopoldo” was Bernardo de Torres, who testified before the House Select Committee on Assassinations, which accepted the CIA demand that he be granted partial immunity, so that he was not questioned about the period of time leading up to the assassination.

     

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess the part of the story I doubt most is that this so-called trap would silence Bobby. How did he even know it was Murgado in Dallas with Oswald? Since Bobby never read the Warren Report, what reason do we have to believe he even knew about the Odio incident? Does Murgado say he told Bobby about this? If so, then why didn't Bobby go after de Torres? After all this is the big murderous brat Bobby Kennedy, who was supposedly foaming at the mouth to kill Castro simply because the BOP embarrassed his brother...

The other part that smells is that Murgado would go to the Odio's apartment seeking assistance. Nonsense. They told the Odio sisters they were friends of her father's and members of JURE. That was a lie. That's called disinfo. Going to someone's house and telling them lies and then insinuating that a man affiliated with her father's political group wants to kill Kennedy is not seeking assistance. While Murgado was supposedly betrayed by Leopoldo, I see NO reason to believe him.

The whole thing reeks of a man with his back against the wall clutching at straws. If Murgado was in Dallas, he was there as part of the plot. This cover story stinks.