Guest Duncan MacRae Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 (edited) Many believe in the existance of another film shot from a very similar location as the film shot by Zapruder.Having considered this as a possibility over the last few years..i decided to take a closer look at the area on and around the pedestal.Here are the results of my pedestal study which some may have seen before.It does appear as though Sitzman is indeed holding something which looks like a Movie camera in front of her face and at similar angle to that of Zapruder's camera. Duncan Edited February 22, 2005 by Duncan MacRae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 (edited) Duncan - If you find Bronson's slide of Sitzman and Zapruder on the pedestal you will see that she has her right hand on Zapruder's back and her left hand on her hip. Unless she had three arms there is no way she was filming the motorcade. I will give you credit for one thing - you can post images when the rest of us cannot. Bill Edited February 17, 2005 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanet Clark Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Duncan, the second lens is pretty clear, thank you. This of course would give a back-up film stock (or a "take Two") for use in the editing process, from virtually an identical Point of View....very cool post...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Kutzer Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Duncan.....now all you need are some before and after's showing Sitzman with a camera.... not a dig, just an observation.....keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 (edited) Never in my life have I seen where so many people in one place thought that by degrading an image to the point of erasing the known data within it that it somehow would bring out more details of unknown things. The light color of Sitzman's hand can be seen on Zapruder's back in the Bronson slide. Also on page 190 of Groden's book "The Killing of a President" is a copy of the Willis photo and Sitzman has nothing in front of her face. The same can be said about Sitzman in the Moorman photo. Also the Nix film shows the same thing. Yet rather than to check these things out first - people start applauding Duncan for creating an image that is so bad that one can imply it shows about anything and who could dispute it. Maybe someone should stop and think why no one over the past 40 years has said Sitzman was filming the motorcade as it drove by her position until Duncan came up with such a ridiculous image. Edited February 18, 2005 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanet Clark Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Dude, if that is your best piece of evidence you have a real problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 (edited) BM moaned on: [...] Maybe someone should stop and think why no one over the past 40 years has said Sitzman was filming the motorcade as it drove by her position until Duncan came up with such a ridiculous image. ______________ All the above from someone that can't point to ONE identifying mark in Moorman 5 that prove Marilyn Sitzman and Abraham Zapruder are the two folks standing upon the pedestal. ahh, the Moorman5 -- Your achilles heel. For all anyone can tell, the guy who appears to be wearing a suit might be taking a drink from a thermos By the way -- I hereby withdraw your Adobe Photoshop [Div.] employment referral. I was reminded last night [from a fan of yours] one of your comments regarding: what could be seen [by uprezzing photos] in certain trees around DP... tsk-tsk How you ID someones hand, when you can't even see features on a FACE? Your photo analysis powers are 'simply' astounding ROFLMAO! David Healy Edited February 18, 2005 by David G. Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Wow...Incredible..impressive uploads Bill .Tell me...When are you going posting everyone a magnifier so we can actually see any detail ???...roflmao.You make stupid presumptions about my research once again without consulting your brain for advice.Of course i have checked ALL of the other known images of Sitzman on the pedestal.I also know,as you do too,that they are on a different time scale to Moorman,but you CONVENIENTLY forget to mention that, OK, Duncan - let's talk timing as to when these images were taken. You make this ridiculous degraded image from Betzner's photo and claim Sitzman is filming the motorcade. Betzner's photo was taken at Z186. Willis took his photo less than one second later. (That is almost at the same instant that Betzner took his photograph) In the Willis photo we can at least see the dark scarf outlining Sitzman's face, so please tell this forum where Sitzman's right arm crosses that scarf in order to hold a camera in front of her face??? Take your time and look hard and long because it isn't happening. The reason it isn't happening is because in the next 1.5 seconds Bronson took his photo showing Sitzman's light colored hand on Zapruder's back in order to help steady Abraham just as she said she had done. The Nix film tracks the limo past Zapruder and Sitzman's position and at no time does she ever have anything blocking out her face. Moorman's photo falls within that time frame. The reason I didn't post large files on the forum is because they have little space left to work with. I had hoped that those seeing the images I had put up would go to the sources I cited and see them in larger form. I just deleted a handful of past posted images of mine to make room for these. It would help if people would be careful about repeating the previous posting's images because it just uses up badly needed forum space so new images can be posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 (edited) All the above from someone that can't point to ONE identifying mark in Moorman 5 that prove Marilyn Sitzman and Abraham Zapruder are the two folks standing upon the pedestal. David - If you just spent a fraction of the time cross referencing the assassination images as you do trolling this site in hopes of showing everyone how little you know about the assassination, then you could have prevented making such a silly comment. Before Zapruder filmed the lead cycles coming onto Elm Street he had filmed Sitzman standing next to the Hester's. Sitzman is wearing a dress and a black scarf over her head. That scarf is visible in Moorman's photo. Patsy Pascall filmed Sitzman and Zapruder getting off the pedestal. That black scarf and dress are also visible in the Willis photo. I believe Altgens 8 shows both Sitzman and Zapruder from the rear as they are next to pedestal after having just dismounted from it. On page 47 of Groden's book "TKOAP" we can see where Sitzman in her black scarf with purse in hand is just starting to turn to go into the shelter where she, Zapruder and both Hester's conversed after the shooting. Was this enough or do you need to hear more! By the way -- I hereby withdraw your Adobe Photoshop [Div.] employment referral. I was reminded last night [from a fan of yours] one of your comments regarding: what could be seen [by uprezzing photos] in certain trees around DP... tsk-tsk Yeh - I think that I know who the gimp is that continues to misstate what I said so many years ago. Edited February 19, 2005 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 You're right, Duncan - I said Betzner when I should have referenced Moorman's photo. The mentioning of the other photos goes towards Sitzman not holding a camera to her face and how that goes against your mentioning this so-called other film that some people have invented. If Sitzman is not holding a camera to her face as the limo approaches her, then she is not the source fro the alleged "other film". In your initial post you say Sitzman has a camera in front of her face that is being held in her right hand. Can you explain why the Moorman photo that I posted with the "60'" marked on it shows Sitzman's face with nothing blocking it out? Can you explain why we do not see a light colored arm passing over Sitzman's black scarf - I mean, we can assume that your Moorman enhancement represents the same moment in time as the Moorman print I used - right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 (edited) Willie said: David - If you just spent a fraction of the time cross referencing the assassination images as you do trolling this site in hopes of showing everyone how little you know about the assassination, then you could have prevented making such a silly comment. Before Zapruder filmed the lead cycles coming onto Elm Street he had filmed Sitzman standing next to the Hester's. Sitzman is wearing a dress and a black scarf over her head. That scarf is visible in Moorman's photo. dgh01: now don't go getting testy, now. Surely you can point us to the proof that the imagery you depend upon here was filmed Nov. 22nd, by the way; where oh where is this ghostly imagery of Sitzman located, archived? Patsy Pascall filmed Sitzman and Zapruder getting off the pedestal. That black scarf and dress are also visible in the Willis photo. I believe Altgens 8 shows both Sitzman and Zapruder from the rear as they are next to pedestal after having just dismounted from it. dgh01: read my lips, are you telling us, you, BMiller can clearly, without hesitation identify AZapruder and MSitzman as the people in ANY DP film or photo? Forget the hearsay for a change -AND- is that the same shelter where YOU, you Bill Miller can't see a camera on a tripod, yet you can clearly identify a women getting off the pedestal? Amazing, simple amazing. On page 47 of Groden's book "TKOAP" we can see where Sitzman in her black scarf with purse in hand is just starting to turn to go into the shelter where she, Zapruder and both Hester's conversed after the shooting. dgh01: read my lips, are you telling us, you, BMiller can clearly, without hesitation identify AZapruder and MSitzman as the people in ANY DP film or photo? Forget the hearsay for a change -- makes no difference whether its in Groden's book or not Was this enough or do you need to hear more! dgh01: see above - sell it to your groupies, those in the know, ain't buy'n.... By the way -- I hereby withdraw your Adobe Photoshop [Div.] employment referral. I was reminded last night [from a fan of yours] one of your comments regarding: what could be seen [by uprezzing photos] in certain trees around DP... tsk-tsk Yeh - I think that I know who the gimp is that continues to misstate what I said so many years ago. dgh01:"gimp"? give you enough rope, you'll gladly step of the side of the cliff, have you NO shame picking on "cripples" now! roflmfao! Edited February 19, 2005 by David G. Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 (edited) dgh01: read my lips, are you telling us, you, BMiller can clearly, without hesitation identify AZapruder and MSitzman as the people in ANY DP film or photo? Forget the hearsay for a change -- makes no difference whether its in Groden's book or not Sure I can and so could you if you did your homework. Not only is Sitzman in the clip I posted, but her footage is on the tail end of Zapruder's home movies. Now how many people do you were in that area wearing a dress like Sitzman's and a black scarf? Better yet, when did you or anyone else from the looney forum ever try and contact either of the Hester's to varify that it was Sitzman and Zapruder they had seen on the pedestal and/or talked to in the shelter immediately following the assassination? I'm guessing that no one from the looney forum has ever done it because it would crush their dreams of being able to raise doubts about it actually being Zapruder and Sitzman. BTW - I never knew that a film or a photo is copnsidered hearsay. I just got out of a two week trial that was full of hearsay if that was the case. Also, I have a bumb leg as well. I just wanted to see if you were silly enough to confirm who I thought it was. Thanks! Edited February 19, 2005 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Fact is Bill that the image you posted does contain what you say isn't there.You just can't see it,that's all. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well that was quite a detailed reply you offered up. Do you care to be more specific or is that it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 (edited) dgh01: read my lips, are you telling us, you, BMiller can clearly, without hesitation identify AZapruder and MSitzman as the people in ANY DP film or photo? Forget the hearsay for a change -- makes no difference whether its in Groden's book or not Sure I can and so could you if you did your homework. Not only is Sitzman in the clip I posted, but her footage is on the tail end of Zapruder's home movies. Now how many people do you were in that area wearing a dress like Sitzman's and a black scarf? Better yet, when did you or anyone else from the looney forum ever try and contact either of the Hester's to varify that it was Sitzman and Zapruder they had seen on the pedestal and/or talked to in the shelter immediately following the assassination? dgh02: why? When the Zfilm is entered into evidence [if it gets to court], both sides will have a say, yes? Your not of the school; the Z-film will pass muster unchallenged are you? Noticed you can't or won't say where the alledged camera original 'A side' of the Zfilm currently is, I'm a nice guy, I'll give you another 24 hours to contact Gary and ask 'em.... I'm guessing that no one from the looney forum has ever done it because it would crush their dreams of being able to raise doubts about it actually being Zapruder and Sitzman. dgh02: looney? Their ID has been questioned for years and years, particularly ole Abe, -- only newbies are in that state of denial... Course you could clarify a lot right here, have you ever seen a un-slit, alledged Z-film camera original optical print? If you haven't, gonna be pretty tough to make a case that the Sitzman "A" side your referring too, came from the 11/22/63 AZap film. Personally, I think Gary's correct, when he says; "the Zapruder film will NEVER see the inside of a courtroom". Pisses a few of us off when we hear something like that, you Bill are just the side show! How's it feel to be used? BTW - I never knew that a film or a photo is copnsidered hearsay. I just got out of a two week trial that was full of hearsay if that was the case. ahh, justice denied ANOTHER American, GOD help 'em LOL -- You can be sitting on the US Supreme Court for all I know, doesn't change a thing in the above. Also, I have a bumb leg as well. I just wanted to see if you were silly enough to confirm who I thought it was. Thanks! dgh02: confirm WHAT? That your biased? F L A S H -- Could of been any number of folks, the forum had a couple thousand members viewing when you got carried away Edited February 19, 2005 by David G. Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 dgh02: looney? Their ID has been questioned for years and years, particularly ole Abe, -- only newbies are in that state of denial... Course you could clarify a lot right here, have you ever seen a un-slit, alledged Z-film camera original optical print? If you haven't, gonna be pretty tough to make a case that the Sitzman "A" side your referring too, came from the 11/22/63 AZap film. Who questioned Zapruder and Sitzman's ID other than those select few who think every photo and film is altered in some way when it doesn't show what they want it too. Those same individuals were posting on the looney forum one time about how Zapruder could not have shot his film because he had on glasses and their thinking was that no one films with a movie camera with glasses on. I have seen several photos showing people filming through a camera lens while wearing glasses. Kennedy Aide Dave Powers is one of them. A photo of him filming with his camera while wearing glasses can be seen in Trask book "The Pictures of the Pain". Isn't it interesting that not one single witness who was in and around the knoll has ever said that the man who was all over the TV Networks talking about a film he shot from atop of the pedestal during the assassination was not the man they saw. I believe the Hester's are still alive - see if they will tell you if it was Zapruder and Sitzman they saw that day and spent about 10 minutes with them immediately following the assassination or would that not be productive for you to do at this time. That's the one thing about a hoaxers argument is that they depend on 'not gathering' all the facts so they can make their suspicions seem valid. It is so important to them that they will purposely avoid seeking out the right people and asking the right questions so to keep fueling their position on a particular matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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