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Guest Stephen Turner

Jack the Ripper

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Guest Stephen Turner

3, ELIZABETH STRIDE.

1,(Organisation) A clasic controlled attack( Raptor) Victim is overwelmed

by sudden savage attack. Killer leaves scene immediately, no clues left.

2,(Crime scene) Berners St, inside yard of International Workingmans

club. well lit area,over 100 people in close proximity.

3, (Method) Bruising to both shoulders, deep cut to throat,about 6ins

in length, no mutilations, right handed killer indicated,short bladed

knife.

4, ( Victim) Woman 44 years old,5ft 9ins, light complection & hair

slim build, heavy drinker. Living at common lodging house Flower

& Dean St, working as a prostitute.

5,(Time) 12-45-1-00am Satuday 30thsept 1888.

6(Witnesess) J Gardner, J Best, A Marshall, I Schartz.

7,(Unknown) Was killer known to victim. What was Liz doing in Berner St

not a known place for prostitutes & clients.

PERP, (Description Schartz) Male 30 years, brown moustache, brown hair,

fair complextion, dark jacket & trousers, peaked cap.

Right handed, no attepted rape, Weapon short sharp knife.

Edited by Stephen Turner

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Guest Stephen Turner

Before I move on to profile the murder of Catharine Eddowes, I would like

to examine in more detail some interesting aspects of the Liz Stride murder.

THE MURDER SITES

1,Stride-Dutfields yard, well lit, close to a busy club.

2,Nicholls-Bucks row, poorly lit quite street with few pedestrians

3, Chapman-Hanbury St, a quite dark backyard.

4, Eddowes-Mitre Sq, dark enclosed square with dark entrances.

5, Kelly-Millers Court, single room in a quiet court off Dorset St.

Stride was murdered in a well lit, busy area, the other sites were quieter,

and poorly lit, areas the killer knew there was little chance of discovery.

It must also be accepted, due to p/m evidence that:

1, Stride was on her back when killed, face upwards:

2, The killer was to the left of the body, on Strides right side:

(The blood flowed away from her murderer )

3, Face held in the left hand. (Bruise to right jaw Thumb print)

4, Weapon held in right hand.

We have a right handed killer who doe's not, mutilate the body despite

having 15 mins in which to do so,(Schartz-Diemschultz) and chooses

a well lit, busy area in which to do his grizzly work.

Obviously different M/O= different killer?????????

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Before I move on to profile the murder of Catharine Eddowes, I would like

to examine in more detail some interesting aspects of the Liz Stride murder.

            THE MURDER SITES

1,Stride-Dutfields yard, well lit, close to a busy club.

2,Nicholls-Bucks row, poorly lit quite street with few pedestrians

3, Chapman-Hanbury St, a quite dark backyard.

4, Eddowes-Mitre Sq, dark enclosed square with dark entrances.

5, Kelly-Millers Court, single room in a quiet court off Dorset St.

Stride was murdered in a well lit, busy area, the other sites were quieter,

and poorly lit, areas the killer knew there was little chance of discovery.

It must also be accepted, due to p/m evidence that:

1, Stride was on her back when killed, face upwards:

2, The killer was to the left of the body, on Strides right side:

(The blood flowed away from her murderer )

3, Face held in the left hand. (Bruise to right jaw Thumb print)

4, Weapon held in right hand.

We have a right handed killer who doe's not, mutilate the body despite

having 15 mins in which to do so,(Schartz-Diemschultz) and chooses

a well lit, busy area in which to do his grizzly work.

Obviously different M/O= different killer?????????

Stephen,

It's a big jump. The killer changed his M/O anyway, with the murder of Kelly. All the "right handed-- left handed" stuff can be overestimated, IMO. Some of the doctor's reports contradicted each other. Also, the killer could have been

ambidextrous. The best rebuttal of your theory is, however, that if there were two killers it's even more strange that the case remained unsolved. Surely one of them would have been caught.

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Guest Stephen Turner

Mark.

Thanks for your continued interest. I dont belive ive posted a "theory"

for rebutal, just a few questions about the Stride murder scene.

Why no mutilation? there was time, but no! he leaves Stride, walks

three quarters of a mile, finds Eddowes, kills her, performs the mutilations

he could have inflicted on Stride, leaves and then writes a chalk message

in Ghoulston St, & all this whilst being hotly persued by the Police?

Do you feel that the case for Berner St being markedly differnt to the other

murder sights is well made?

I belive that the Police could have, & should have arrested Strides killer

the very next day. After all, he presents himself at the station at 8-00am

that morning!!!

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Mark.

Thanks for your continued interest. I dont belive ive posted a "theory"

for rebutal, just a few questions about the Stride murder scene.

Why no mutilation? there was time, but no! he leaves Stride, walks

three quarters of a mile, finds Eddowes, kills her, performs the mutilations

he could have inflicted on Stride, leaves and then writes a chalk message

in Ghoulston St, & all this whilst being hotly persued by the Police?

Do you feel that the case for Berner St being markedly differnt to the other

murder sights is well made?

I belive that the Police could have, & should have arrested Strides killer

the very next day. After all, he presents himself at the station at 8-00am

that morning!!!

Stephen,

Thanks for your reply. From memory, I thought the killer was disturbed(interrupted) during the Stride murder. Wasn't that borne out by the "JTR' letter? Not that I place any faith in them, probably 2 and maybe all 3 were fakes. Whoa! What's this? The killer presents himself at the station next morning? I'm all ears(and eyes)!. Personally, I believe the killer was one of the 3 mentioned in Anderson's(?) notes -- Kosminski, Druitt and Ostrog. In one of the books I read some years ago, there was a great description, IMO, of the killer. I'm going from memory here so I'm glad to be corrected as it probably won't be totally accurate.... a cop on the beat patrolling (maybe) Mitre Square gave a description of a man who walked hurriedly past him shortly before one of the victims was discovered. From memory he stated he was young - mid to late twenties - pale complexion, looked a bit dainty even but with blazing, wild eyes. The cop later regretted not questioning him.... Can you tell me who the cop was? It's one of the more obscure facts of the case and it's hard to dig up on the net.

Anyway, who was this contrite suspect? Is this widely documented or a new discovery?

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Guest Stephen Turner

Hi Mark.

Nothing much wrong with your memory.The Detective was Stephen White,

and most commentators belive he is speaking about Mitre Sq. He talks about

watching a certain alley behind Whitechapel Rd for five nights, The man he claims

to have seen is described thusly. 5ft 10ins, shabbily dressed, although the cloths

had once been of a good"cut",face long & thin "delicate nostrils, hair jet black

complexion sallow. The most striking thing about him though, was the brilliance

of his eyes "Like two glow worms".Hands snow white, fingers long & tapering.

I am a bit pushed for time today(or so my wife tells me.) Iwill respond to your

other points tomorrow. Hope this has been of help.

PS I will also post on Strides killer later, Others have suggested him, but i've

got some more evidence you might find interesting.

Edited by Stephen Turner

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Hi Mark.

Nothing much wrong with your memory.The Detective was Stephen White,

and most commentators belive he is speaking about Mitre Sq. He talks about

watching a certain alley behind Whitechapel Rd for five nights, The man he claims

to have seen is described thusly. 5ft 10ins, shabbily dressed, although the cloths

had once been of a good"cut",face long & thin "delicate nostrils, hair jet black

complexion sallow. The most striking thing about him though, was the brilliance

of his eyes "Like two glow worms".Hands snow white, fingers long & tapering.

I am a bit pushed for time today(or so my wife tells me.) Iwill respond to your

other points tomorrow. Hope this has been of help.

PS I will also post on Strides killer later, Others have suggested him, but i've

got some more evidence you might find interesting.

Stephen,

Thanks for that. I feel we're fortunate to have a genuine "Ripperologist" to bounce ideas off. I'm up to my ears in Kennedy books at the moment but I still have a keen interest in this case. Looking forward to your further postings.

I always believed that this description, coupled with Hutchinson's, were the most crucial in the case. However, it's hard to reconcile the two. Hutchinson's man might not have been the Ripper, though, as there is still a lag of one hour or so between Hutchinson's departure and the cry of "murder" heard by Mary Kelly's neighbour. She may have gone looking for one more client, as we know she was way behind in the rent. Does Detective White's description mention approximate age or presence of a moustache? Also, how tall was Monty Druitt? I'm predicting he would have been reasonably tall in order to throw down all those quick deliveries.

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Guest Stephen Turner

Mark.

Thank you for the kind comments. I shall do my best to live up to them!!

Monty druitt was by all accounts over 6ft tall( all round sportsman as well)

Det White's man is clean shaven & youngish 25-30 yrs, so asyou say a

poor match for Hutchinson's well dressed man.

You are correct that both Hutchinson's,& White's eye-witness accounts are

the best visual evidence in this case. Unfortunately, I find both highly

suspect. Lets start with Det White, The problem here is this evidence was

never produced as an official Police report. It first see's the light of day in

a cheap periodical "The Peoples Journal" on 20th Sept 1919, a full year

after the events it describes. Im not saying that White made it up from

"Whole Cloth"But as he never questioned/stopped the man at the time, or

even saw fit to report the inncident I find it highly questionable.( there were

also two P/C's with him neither of whom supported his story.)

Now lets look at George Hutchinson, The main problem here, once again is

that Hutchinson does'nt report his sighting until several day's after the event.

Tellingly, after the inquest, thus spareing himself from cross-examination.

However Aberline(A good detective) finds his story credible.

So the problem here as you said is did Hutchinson see Kelly with the Ripper,

or just another customer. Remember ,Hutchinson, by his own account stays

outside the court for an hour,till 2-00am, Mrs Prater reports cries of "oh murder"

at Roughly 4-00am. As you allude to, much could have happened in this time.

Next I want to look at Anderson's suspects, and Mr George Chapman, a

Gentleman we must take very seriously. A known murderer of woman,

he was in whitechapel at the time of the killings, some medical training

and Aberlines choise for Jack.

Regards Steve.

Edited by Stephen Turner

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Guest Stephen Turner

Before I post on the suspects, Mark asks as to the Stride killing, wasnt the

killer disturbed? This is a widely held belife, that I feel has little basis in

fact. Lets examine the witnesess. 1, Maurice Eagle, Walks his girlfriend home

passed the club gates at 12-40am, He see's nothing strange. 2,Israel Schwartz,

see's two men, one of whom assaults a woman outside the gates at 12-45am.

3,Louis Diemschultz, Enters the club gates at 1-00am and discovers Strides

prone body.

Now, unless the woman Schwartz see's is not Stride( & his discription sounds

like Stride) or there were two seperate attacks on two different woman,

outside a club packed with people, within 15 mins of each other a highly

unlikely scenario, then the man seen by Schwartz is Strides killer.Ergo he

had 15 mins Schwartz~Diemschultz, to have inflicted further mutilations

and have no psycological need to place himself in further danger of capture,

by seeking out Eddowes.

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Before I post on the suspects, Mark asks as to the Stride killing, wasnt the

killer disturbed? This is a widely held belife, that I feel has little basis in

fact. Lets examine the witnesess. 1, Maurice Eagle, Walks his girlfriend home

passed the club gates at 12-40am, He see's nothing strange. 2,Israel Schwartz,

see's two men, one of whom assaults a woman outside the gates at 12-45am.

3,Louis Diemschultz, Enters the club gates at 1-00am and discovers Strides

prone body.

Now, unless the woman Schwartz see's is not Stride( & his discription sounds

like Stride) or there were two seperate attacks on two different woman,

outside a club packed with people, within 15 mins of each other a highly

unlikely scenario, then the man seen by Schwartz is Strides killer.Ergo he

had 15 mins Schwartz~Diemschultz, to have inflicted further mutilations

and have no psycological need to place himself in further danger of capture,

by seeking out Eddowes.

Steve,

Sorry, it's been a while. Some questions, 1. Didn't one of the Ripper letters allude to the killer not having time to snip the ears off Stride? 2. Is your theory that the killers collaborated? 3. Are you saying that the two murderers were the two men seen by Israel Schwartz? or that a third person (ie. JTR) coincidentally murdered Eddowes a few minutes after someone else murdered Stride?

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Guest Stephen Turner

Hi Mark..

Sorry It's been a while,I have been debating 9-11 for the last couple of week's

I will put my Ripper head back on, and try to answer your questions in the

next few days...

Steve. :ph34r:

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Guest Stephen Turner
Before I post on the suspects, Mark asks as to the Stride killing, wasnt the

killer disturbed? This is a widely held belife, that I feel has little basis in

fact. Lets examine the witnesess. 1, Maurice Eagle, Walks his girlfriend home

passed the club gates at 12-40am, He see's nothing strange. 2,Israel Schwartz,

see's two men, one of whom assaults a woman outside the gates at 12-45am.

3,Louis Diemschultz, Enters the club gates at 1-00am and discovers Strides

prone body.

Now, unless the woman Schwartz see's is not Stride( & his discription sounds

like Stride) or there were two seperate attacks on two different woman,

outside a club packed with people, within 15 mins of each other a highly

unlikely scenario, then the man seen by Schwartz is Strides killer.Ergo he

had 15 mins Schwartz~Diemschultz, to have inflicted further mutilations

and have no psycological need to place himself in further danger of capture,

by seeking out Eddowes.

Steve,

Sorry, it's been a while. Some questions, 1. Didn't one of the Ripper letters allude to the killer not having time to snip the ears off Stride? 2. Is your theory that the killers collaborated? 3. Are you saying that the two murderers were the two men seen by Israel Schwartz? or that a third person (ie. JTR) coincidentally murdered Eddowes a few minutes after someone else murdered Stride?

Mark..

1,"Next job I do I shall clip the ladys ears off,And send to the police,just for jolly"

"Dear Boss"letter,received 27th Sept, Central news agency. I have a huge problem

accepting ANY of the ripper letters as genuine,(for explaination see"Rise of new

journalism" in these threads.) Witness testimony leaves Jack at least 15 mins

to have "clipped"Strides ears off,yet he passes, Eddowes had a small nick to her left ear, probably received whilst having her throat cut..

2,No. More later...

3, I belive that the man Schartz see's push Stride to the ground, was her killer,

And further, that he was known to her.( I will post on this shortly). Also ask

yourself what was Eddowes doing at Mitre Sq, why, when realeased from the

police station,did she walk in a direction that took her away from her dwellings?

Steve....

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Any visitors to this thread please feelfree to make comments, suggestions,

ask questions etc. I want a real lively debate over this case. Later I shall

post my own theories (a few surprises I promise you.)

Thanks ,Steve.

Hi Steve, just an interested bystander without in-depth knowledge -- just a couple of books and movies/specials under my belt. With that in mind, these are my thoughts...

1. I don't buy the royal conspiracy (as tempting as it is :)

2. I think only one person committed the crimes, though am open to "copy-cats" being behind one or more.

3. I do recall reading where an FBI-style profile had been put together. Don't recall the details. However... I'd be looking for

A. someone familiar with the area.

B. someone employed.

C. someone with a low to moderate level of education.

D. someone familiar with anatomy.

E. someone with a psychosexual dysfunction (eg inability get erect and/or orgasm etc), along with some type of sexual mania.

I know that doesn't narrow the field greatly, but what comes to mind is a "diener" (autopsy assistant).

Such a person could fit A through D. If they also fit E, then watching body parts being removed may have become entwined with sexual fantasies ... to the point where hr "had" to start performing hid own "autopsies".

Autopsy protocols were developed in Germany and indeed, Diener is German for Servant. Possible then, that it was someone from Europe as many believe, and of course, perhaps even Jewish. This isn't essential to the "theory" (for want of a better word), though.

Edited by Greg Parker

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Guest Stephen Turner

Hi Greg.

Very perseptive points, I fell that your profile of Jack is probably a pretty good match. Your right R Ressler of the FBI did a profile of our man, I will attempt to dig it out of my files. Check out the seminars and see what you think of Mr Chapman.

Regards Steve.

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Hi Steve and Mark

First, Steve, I am not sure where you get fifteen minutes for the killer to be alone with Liz Stride on the morning of 30 September 1888 around 12:45 am in order for him to slit her throat and not mutilate her. As you point out, Dutfield's Yard was a better lit and more frequented location than some of the other murder scenes. Fifteen minutes is a considerable amount of time, and if the killer had been alone bending over her all that time, I should say he surely would have been seen in the act... which he was not.

Second, in regard to the sighting by Sergeant Stephen White, while he is reported to have been the only Metropolitan Police officer to get a sight of the killer, there are a number of questions about his description and the circumstances in which the supposed sighting took place. Generally, Ripperologists prefer the description given by Joseph Lawende, one of the three Jewish men who around 1:35 am on 30 September 1888 left the Imperial Club at 16-17 Duke Street near to Mitre Square, Aldgate, where Catherine Eddowes was murdered. The description of the man that Lawende saw with Eddowes was aged 30, 5'7", fair complexion, brown moustache, salt-and-pepper coat, red neckerchief, grey peaked cloth cap, and sailor-like.

There is an interesting essay on Stephen White and the problems with his story at "Shrouded in Mystery : Stephen White, Amos Simpson and "Catharine Eddowes' Shawl" by Andrew Morrison.

Best regards

Chris George

Edited by Christopher T. George

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