Our recent newspaper articles

[Tim Gratz]

Thank you, Bernice. Oops!

Hemming states the offer came from an AWOL officer.

He thought it probably a set-up but they did report it immediately.

[Lee Forman]

Warren Report stuff...

Seems that no one knew/recalled the location of the West elevator. The East was on the 5th, and the passenger elevator wasn't working.

Mr. Belin.

Let me ask you this. As you got to the stairs on the fourth floor, did you notice whether or not the elevator was running?

Miss ADAMS. The elevator was not moving.

Mr. Belin.

How do you know it was not moving on some other floor?

Miss ADAMS. Because the cables move when the elevator is moved, and this is evidenced because of a wooden grate.

Mr. Belin.

By that you mean a wooden door with slats in it that you have to lift up to get on the elevator?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. Belin.

Did you look to see if the elevator was moving?

Miss ADAMS. It was not; no, sir.

Mr. Belin.

It was not moving?

Miss ADAMS. No.

Mr. Belin.

Did you happen to see where the elevator might have been located?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. Belin.

During the trip down the stairs on the way down did you ever encounter Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything, connected with the assassination?

Miss ADAMS. At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent.

Mr. BELIN. No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct. Mr. Belin.

That is helpful information. Is there any other information you have that could be relevant?

Miss ADAMS. There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.

Mr. Belin.

Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir.

Mr. Belin.

What about the third floor?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir.

Mr. Belin.

Fourth floor?

Mr. Truly.

No, I am sure not.

Mr. Belin.

What about the fifth floor?

Mr. Truly.

When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on that floor.

Mr. Belin.

What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the east elevator.

Mr. Belin.

All right.

Mr. Truly.

I am almost positive that it wasn't there.

Mr. Dulles.

You said you released the elevator and let it go down?

Mr. Truly.

No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor.

Mr. Belin.

Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor. As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went from the stairs over to the east elevator.

Mr. Truly.

Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east elevator.

Mr. Belin.

Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?

All right.

Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?

Mr. Truly.

We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.

Mr. Belin.

Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the seventh floor?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir; because I could not see the west elevator while operating the east elevator.

Mr. Belin.

You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just couldn't see it?

Mr. Truly.

Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon.

Mr. Truly.

I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up there. I wasn't really looking for it, however.

Mr. Belin.

Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator next? If you know.

Mr. Truly.

I don't know.

Mr. Belin.

I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.

Mr. Truly.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin.

Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?

Mr. Truly.

I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.

Mr. Belin.

Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?

Mr. Truly.

Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.

Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.

Mr. Belin.

You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct?

Mr. Truly.

That is correct.

Mr. Belin.

What is your best guess?

Mr. Truly.

My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was.

Mr. Belin.

When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.

Mr. Truly.

No. When I came down from the second floor---from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.

Mr. Belin.

But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir.

Mr. Belin.

Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?

Mr. Truly.

I didn't look.

Mr. Belin.

As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir.

Mr. Belin.

And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.

Mr. Truly.

No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side.

Mr. Belin.

Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?

Mr. Truly.

I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle.

Mr. Belin.

Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only intent on getting to the seventh floor.

Mr. Belin.

So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or not an elevator was there?

Mr. Truly.

I cannot.

Mr. Belin.

When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east elevator.

Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir.

Mr. Belin.

Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?

Mr. Truly.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles.

You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time to get from the sixth to the second floor?

Mr. Truly.

You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not, because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor, they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination. He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we did see the elevators in those positions.

Mr. Dulles.

He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else go up to, that floor and leave it?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that.

Representative Ford.

He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then sent it up to a higher floor?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors.

Mr. Belin.

On both elevators?

Mr. Truly.

That is just the west one only.

Representative Ford.

That was feasible, even though it might be a little difficult?

Mr. Truly.

Yes, sir.

Representative Ford.

There was no button on the outside that permitted him to send an elevator up to a higher floor?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his hand all through there and press one.

Mr. Dulles.

Would he have to break any glass to do it?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir. The car gate and then there was an outside gate slatted---slats about this far apart.

[Pat Speer]

Thanks Ron and Thanks Bernice. I do still find the elevator shaft descent a bit stretched. Either way, I do want to re-raise the question that why do none of the TSBD employees (roughly 100) say that they witnessed unfamiliar individuals inside the building, prior to the assassination, who did not work there? How is it possible that none of them saw any suspicious characters coming in or out of the building?

Eye witness R. Carr did.

Why did none of the Police officers in the immediate vicinity of the TSBD not try to stop the individuals clearly fleeing the building as seen by Carr and others?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Antti, you're quite correct about the elevator shaft. Hemming is making it up. One of the first things I did when I got into this thing was show myself it was possible for someone besides Oswald to have been on the sixth floor and to have escaped. Here's what I came to understand.

Truly and Baker arrive at the elevators. They see both of them at the fifth. The East elevator is controlled only from inside. The West can be called but not if someone has the door locked open. When it doesn't respond Truly yells for someone on the fifth to release the elevator. No one does. Jack Daugherty is on the fifth pulling an order. Jarman, Williams and Norman are on the fifth hiding by the stairs and watching the crowd race over to the railroad tracks. None of them hear Truly.

Jack Daugherty has heard the shots and is wondering what is going on. He takes the West elevator from the fifth floor down while Truly and Baker are running up the stairs.

Truly and Baker get to the fifth. Jarman, as I remember it, sees Baker's helmet, but doesn't bother to alertl Baker that he thinks the shooter was on the sixth. Truly and Baker notice that the West elevator is gone (taken down by Daugherty) and take the East elevator to the SEVENTH where they get off and go up to the roof, where Baker looks for a shooter behind the Hertz sign.

Since Jarman, Williams, and Norman take a few more minutes before heading down, this means a shooter or a team of shooters could have a window of 3-4 minutes where they could head down the stairs without being seen. Although Vickie Adams believes she raced straight down the stairs she is obviously wrong because she remembers seeing Billy Shelley when she got to the bottom floor, and Shelley and Lovelady both swear they walked around by the railroad tracks for several minutes before coming back inside the building. Still, her testimony is important because it confirms that no one was checking people coming out of the building. Shelley and Lovedlady's testimony is even more important because they admit they came back in from a loading dock on the WEST side of the building, an entrance/exit that no one ever testified to blocking off. The WC attorney asking them the questions nearly went into a fit.

As to the question how could no one notice the strangers in the building it should be remembered that there were a number of small companies in the building whose employees did not all mix. Office people made it a point not to notice warehouse workers etc. I've worked in similar environments. Anyhow, the proof that this was so comes from the WC statements of those who worked in the building--barely any of them remembered seeing Oswald even though he'd worked there for six weeks. Even so they were asked if they remembered noticing any strangers in the building. Of course, they all said no, because there were so many strangers in the building they never stopped to notice.

[Antti Hynonen]

Pat Speer Posted Today, 11:49 AM

  QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Mar 20 2005, 02:51 PM)

Thanks Ron and Thanks Bernice. I do still find the elevator shaft descent a bit stretched. Either way, I do want to re-raise the question that why do none of the TSBD employees (roughly 100) say that they witnessed unfamiliar individuals inside the building, prior to the assassination, who did not work there? How is it possible that none of them saw any suspicious characters coming in or out of the building?

Eye witness R. Carr did.

Why did none of the Police officers in the immediate vicinity of the TSBD not try to stop the individuals clearly fleeing the building as seen by Carr and others?

Antti, you're quite correct about the elevator shaft. Hemming is making it up. One of the first things I did when I got into this thing was show myself it was possible for someone besides Oswald to have been on the sixth floor and to have escaped. Here's what I came to understand.

Truly and Baker arrive at the elevators. They see both of them at the fifth. The East elevator is controlled only from inside. The West can be called but not if someone has the door locked open. When it doesn't respond Truly yells for someone on the fifth to release the elevator. No one does. Jack Daugherty is on the fifth pulling an order. Jarman, Williams and Norman are on the fifth hiding by the stairs and watching the crowd race over to the railroad tracks. None of them hear Truly.

Jack Daugherty has heard the shots and is wondering what is going on. He takes the West elevator from the fifth floor down while Truly and Baker are running up the stairs.

Truly and Baker get to the fifth. Jarman, as I remember it, sees Baker's helmet, but doesn't bother to alertl Baker that he thinks the shooter was on the sixth. Truly and Baker notice that the West elevator is gone (taken down by Daugherty) and take the East elevator to the SEVENTH where they get off and go up to the roof, where Baker looks for a shooter behind the Hertz sign.

Since Jarman, Williams, and Norman take a few more minutes before heading down, this means a shooter or a team of shooters could have a window of 3-4 minutes where they could head down the stairs without being seen. Although Vickie Adams believes she raced straight down the stairs she is obviously wrong because she remembers seeing Billy Shelley when she got to the bottom floor, and Shelley and Lovelady both swear they walked around by the railroad tracks for several minutes before coming back inside the building. Still, her testimony is important because it confirms that no one was checking people coming out of the building. Shelley and Lovedlady's testimony is even more important because they admit they came back in from a loading dock on the WEST side of the building, an entrance/exit that no one ever testified to blocking off. The WC attorney asking them the questions nearly went into a fit.

As to the question how could no one notice the strangers in the building it should be remembered that there were a number of small companies in the building whose employees did not all mix. Office people made it a point not to notice warehouse workers etc. I've worked in similar environments. Anyhow, the proof that this was so comes from the WC statements of those who worked in the building--barely any of them remembered seeing Oswald even though he'd worked there for six weeks. Even so they were asked if they remembered noticing any strangers in the building. Of course, they all said no, because there were so many strangers in the building they never stopped to notice.

Thanks Pat, makes sense. Although I think a police officer would ignore a young lady walking in or out of the TSBD, but perhaps 3-4 men hurrying off would raise suspicion, if not enough to stop them, maybe enough to remember that they ran by you.

[Pat Speer]

Thanks Pat, makes sense. Although I think a police officer would ignore a young lady walking in or out of the TSBD, but perhaps 3-4 men hurrying off would raise suspicion, if not enough to stop them, maybe enough to remember that they ran by you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that 3-4 running out would probably have been noticed. I believe no one who witnessed men running out the back saw more than one at a time.

[Antti Hynonen]

Pat Speer Posted Today, 02:18 PM

  QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Mar 21 2005, 01:21 PM)

Thanks Pat, makes sense. Although I think a police officer would ignore a young lady walking in or out of the TSBD, but perhaps 3-4 men hurrying off would raise suspicion, if not enough to stop them, maybe enough to remember that they ran by you.

I agree that 3-4 running out would probably have been noticed. I believe no one who witnessed men running out the back saw more than one at a time.

Yes, not many testify to this type of an event. Of course men assumed to be "agents" were seen standing around the back, soon after the incident. I can't tell precisely from R. Carr's testimony whether the 3 men ran out simultaneously (see below), however it sure seems like the were moving together and then stepped into the same station wagon and left.

Q: And at the same time you were looking up towards the Texas Book Depository seeing three men come out from behind it. Is that right? A: Do you see these dots on this --

Q: Would you answer my question and then explain, please, sir. I say would you answer the question and then explain.

A: Yes, I will answer your question, repeat it, please.

THE COURT: Mr. Carr, when a question is put to you, you can answer it yes or no, but you have a right to explain your answer so you cannot be cut off, so if you wish to explain the answer, you are permitted by law to do so.

(Whereupon, the question was read back by the Reporter.)

A: Yes, that's right.

BY MR. DYMOND:

Q: And also at the same time you were watching the man whom you say you had seen on the Fifth Floor of the Book Depository walk on Houston Street towards Main. Is that right?

A: Yes, and I have -- may I explain that?

Q: Yes.

THE COURT: You may explain.

A: The same man that I saw here in this window was with the three men that I told you a minute ago, they came out from behind the School Book Depository, got in the station wagon, one man crossed the street and then came down this side of Houston Street and turned onto Commerce Street.

BY MR. DYMOND:

Q: And you were watching that procedure at the same time that you were watching what was going on in the grassy knoll area?

A: No, sir.

Q: And what was going on around the Presidential vehicle and in the motorcade, right?

A: No, sir, I was watching that man at that time, and I watched him until I could see him no longer, but that man acted as if he was in a hurry and someone was following him, and I would know that man if I ever saw him again.

[Ron Ecker]

Carr's testimony about 2 or 3 men running out of the TSBD is dubious, in that he did not mention seeing these men in his FBI report. (His explanation was that an FBI agent told him that he didn't see them.) In the report he saw one man in a sports coat, whom he had seen earlier at a window, come out and get in a Rambler.

James Romack specifically watched the back of the TSBD to see if anyone would come out, after he saw officer Barnett run back to check it out. Romack never saw anyone come out. However, his back was turned briefly when he removed a construction barrier for an arriving news reporter's car. Also, how could Romack testify that no one came out the back, when he claims to have been watching during the time that the two women came out, whom Barnett told them to go back inside and the two women then went around the building?

Here's a good article on this subject (though it doesn't cover my latter question):

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/DPQ/sports~1.htm

Ron

[Lee Forman]

Hi Pat.

I agree with you in terms of it being very hard to believe that the elevator shaft and cables would have been used - especially as these guys would have been carrying some type of gear. We don't even know how many? The number 3 is what seems to work.

I read your account and it was very useful. The only observation I would offer is the confusion over the location of the elevators, and who was on the 5th floor, and the timing.

Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This elevator over hero [here]

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one?

Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth floor. Also, the east elevator-- as far as I can tell--both of them were on the fifth floor at that time.

They take the stairs from the 2nd floor to the 5th [after encountering LHO]. At that time, Truly doesn't see that both elevators are there - the west is not. They ride up to the 7th in the east freight elevator, then they take the stairs and go to the roof. They remain on the roof for some time - Then Truly believes he saw Jack Dougherty on 5, when they were making their descent.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?

All right.

Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?

Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little penthouse on to the roof.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?

Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up and down.

Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the roof?

Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell you why he wanted to go on the roof?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from?

Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can remember? About where you thought the shots came from?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When--some time in the course, I believe, after we reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the railroad tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at the runways and the big sign on the-roof.

He saw nothing.

He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I think"--let's back up.

I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, "Be careful, this man will blow your head off."

And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the building.

I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building."

...

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.

Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.

If we timestamp it all, seems that the West elevator is missing somehow. If there's no one to send it down, and it's not responding to the call button, how does Jack Dougherty manage to make use of it? East elevator functions fine to go up to 7 - thought that was interesting.

Is it 12:45pm approximately when Truly and Baker come down from the roof and the 7th floor?

Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor---from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.

Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.

Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?

Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only intent on getting to the seventh floor.

Dougherty's affidavit has him going back to work at 12:45pm.

- lee

Thanks Ron and Thanks Bernice. I do still find the elevator shaft descent a bit stretched. Either way, I do want to re-raise the question that why do none of the TSBD employees (roughly 100) say that they witnessed unfamiliar individuals inside the building, prior to the assassination, who did not work there? How is it possible that none of them saw any suspicious characters coming in or out of the building?

Eye witness R. Carr did.

Why did none of the Police officers in the immediate vicinity of the TSBD not try to stop the individuals clearly fleeing the building as seen by Carr and others?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Antti, you're quite correct about the elevator shaft. Hemming is making it up. One of the first things I did when I got into this thing was show myself it was possible for someone besides Oswald to have been on the sixth floor and to have escaped. Here's what I came to understand.

Truly and Baker arrive at the elevators. They see both of them at the fifth. The East elevator is controlled only from inside. The West can be called but not if someone has the door locked open. When it doesn't respond Truly yells for someone on the fifth to release the elevator. No one does. Jack Daugherty is on the fifth pulling an order. Jarman, Williams and Norman are on the fifth hiding by the stairs and watching the crowd race over to the railroad tracks. None of them hear Truly.

Jack Daugherty has heard the shots and is wondering what is going on. He takes the West elevator from the fifth floor down while Truly and Baker are running up the stairs.

Truly and Baker get to the fifth. Jarman, as I remember it, sees Baker's helmet, but doesn't bother to alertl Baker that he thinks the shooter was on the sixth. Truly and Baker notice that the West elevator is gone (taken down by Daugherty) and take the East elevator to the SEVENTH where they get off and go up to the roof, where Baker looks for a shooter behind the Hertz sign.

Since Jarman, Williams, and Norman take a few more minutes before heading down, this means a shooter or a team of shooters could have a window of 3-4 minutes where they could head down the stairs without being seen. Although Vickie Adams believes she raced straight down the stairs she is obviously wrong because she remembers seeing Billy Shelley when she got to the bottom floor, and Shelley and Lovelady both swear they walked around by the railroad tracks for several minutes before coming back inside the building. Still, her testimony is important because it confirms that no one was checking people coming out of the building. Shelley and Lovedlady's testimony is even more important because they admit they came back in from a loading dock on the WEST side of the building, an entrance/exit that no one ever testified to blocking off. The WC attorney asking them the questions nearly went into a fit.

As to the question how could no one notice the strangers in the building it should be remembered that there were a number of small companies in the building whose employees did not all mix. Office people made it a point not to notice warehouse workers etc. I've worked in similar environments. Anyhow, the proof that this was so comes from the WC statements of those who worked in the building--barely any of them remembered seeing Oswald even though he'd worked there for six weeks. Even so they were asked if they remembered noticing any strangers in the building. Of course, they all said no, because there were so many strangers in the building they never stopped to notice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Pat Speer]

Dougherty, D-o-u-g-h-e-r-t-y, I spelled it wrong on my last post. Anyhow, I think Dougherty testified he took the elevator down after the shots, mentioned hearing something to Eddie Piper and then headed right back up. According to Truly's testimony, Dougherty was an emotionally fragile man living with his parents--I've worked with a few of these myself--and that is why his testimony is unclear on certain points. He gets really upset when the counsel tries to get him to a commit to a time frame for instance--he seemed to believe the shots occurred at 12:45 after he went back to work. My guess is Dougherty was scared he'd get in trouble if he admitted he was working on his lunch break. Anyhow, while I haven't read the testimony for awhile, I spent a lot of time thinking abolut this at one point and a lot of it is coming back to me. I remember Truly saying the disappearance of the West elevator when he ran up to the fifth and reappearance of it when he came back down made perfect sense to him when he saw that Dougherty was working up there. As I remember it the West elevator, the one preferred by Dougherty, had gates that could be left open so no one else could use it. Since Dougherty was on the fifth floor but was not seen by Jarman, Williams, and Norman, the possibility exists of course that someone had manipulated Dougherty into helping them come down in the elevator with him. This is far-fetched I believe but no one was as invisible at the book depository as Dougherty. If he was helping someone get in and out of the book depository no one would have been the wiser.

[Lee Forman]

Hi Pat!

Good stuff. Nice observation. I totally missed that point. He says he went back to work at 12:45, then he heard the shots. Very odd.

The affidavit was 11/22, can be found in Box 15, number 21, since I can't upload it.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/index.html

I love this site. Someday I may simply download the whole thing.

- lee

[Antti Hynonen]

Ron Ecker Posted Yesterday, 04:00 PM

  Carr's testimony about 2 or 3 men running out of the TSBD is dubious, in that he did not mention seeing these men in his FBI report. (His explanation was that an FBI agent told him that he didn't see them.) In the report he saw one man in a sports coat, whom he had seen earlier at a window, come out and get in a Rambler.

James Romack specifically watched the back of the TSBD to see if anyone would come out, after he saw officer Barnett run back to check it out. Romack never saw anyone come out. However, his back was turned briefly when he removed a construction barrier for an arriving news reporter's car. Also, how could Romack testify that no one came out the back, when he claims to have been watching during the time that the two women came out, whom Barnett told them to go back inside and the two women then went around the building?

Here's a good article on this subject (though it doesn't cover my latter question):

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/DPQ/sports~1.htm

Ron

Pat Speer Posted Yesterday, 08:12 PM

  Dougherty, D-o-u-g-h-e-r-t-y, I spelled it wrong on my last post. Anyhow, I think Dougherty testified he took the elevator down after the shots, mentioned hearing something to Eddie Piper and then headed right back up. According to Truly's testimony, Dougherty was an emotionally fragile man living with his parents--I've worked with a few of these myself--and that is why his testimony is unclear on certain points. He gets really upset when the counsel tries to get him to a commit to a time frame for instance--he seemed to believe the shots occurred at 12:45 after he went back to work. My guess is Dougherty was scared he'd get in trouble if he admitted he was working on his lunch break. Anyhow, while I haven't read the testimony for awhile, I spent a lot of time thinking abolut this at one point and a lot of it is coming back to me. I remember Truly saying the disappearance of the West elevator when he ran up to the fifth and reappearance of it when he came back down made perfect sense to him when he saw that Dougherty was working up there. As I remember it the West elevator, the one preferred by Dougherty, had gates that could be left open so no one else could use it. Since Dougherty was on the fifth floor but was not seen by Jarman, Williams, and Norman, the possibility exists of course that someone had manipulated Dougherty into helping them come down in the elevator with him. This is far-fetched I believe but no one was as invisible at the book depository as Dougherty. If he was helping someone get in and out of the book depository no one would have been the wiser.

Thanks everyone for your input and comments. The way I see it, either everyone questioned at the TSBD is not entirely honest, or then someone was (forced to be) in on the assassination. There was enough staff working up there and observing the motorcade on the 5th and 6th floors to have noticed someone, or something out of the ordinary. Something that would have helped investigators solve the crime. In my view this important evidence didn't come to light. Therefore I believe the only possibilty is that someone from the TSBD conspired in the plot, or they lied during the WC hearings.

I'm not familiar with Romack and Barnett's testimonies, I will check that out next.

[Pat Speer]

Thanks everyone for your input and comments. The way I see it, either everyone questioned at the TSBD is not entirely honest, or then someone was (forced to be) in on the assassination. There was enough staff working up there and observing the motorcade on the 5th and 6th floors to have noticed someone, or something out of the ordinary. Something that would have helped investigators solve the crime. In my view this important evidence didn't come to light. Therefore I believe the only possibilty is that someone from the TSBD conspired in the plot, or they lied during the WC hearings.

I'm not familiar with Romack and Barnett's testimonies, I will check that out next.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you really want to spin your head, think about Warren Caster. Caster was the guy who brought two rifles into the TSBD two days before the assassination. One of the guys who checked them out was Oswald. Supposedly he got the idea of killing Kennedy from Caster's guns. What's mind-boggling about Caster is that he was interviewed some time later and said the FBI NEVER EVEN CHECKED to see if he was telling the truth about taking the rifles home. What killed me was when I realized that he showed off the rifles on the way up to his office on the fourth floor and that they were in cases. There is no report of anyone checking the rifles on the way out. Well, that's a classic scam right? A person carrries something in in a box, reveals the contents, then leaves with the box, leaving the contents behind. As soon as the person gets outside he refills the box with extra contents so no one is the wiser. A classic Mission Impossible scheme. What made me extra suspicious is that Caster wasn't even at the TSBD on the 22nd, which gave him a perfect alibi. If someone can tie him to Walker or the Klan, I'll buy his involvement in a heartbeat. The fourth floor was the top floor for offices, above that was just warehouse space. It wouldn't have been hard at all for someone to open up a closet and sneak the guns up a couple of floors around lunchtime after everyone's come down. Maybe the guns were hidden back inside afterwards; it's hard to say how thoroughly the TSBD offices were searched once the sniper's nest was found.

I'm just throwing stuff out in case anyone wants to run with it.

[Antti Hynonen]

Pat Speer Posted Today, 12:30 PM

  QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Mar 22 2005, 01:08 PM)

Thanks everyone for your input and comments. The way I see it, either everyone questioned at the TSBD is not entirely honest, or then someone was (forced to be) in on the assassination. There was enough staff working up there and observing the motorcade on the 5th and 6th floors to have noticed someone, or something out of the ordinary. Something that would have helped investigators solve the crime. In my view this important evidence didn't come to light. Therefore I believe the only possibilty is that someone from the TSBD conspired in the plot, or they lied during the WC hearings.

I'm not familiar with Romack and Barnett's testimonies, I will check that out next.

If you really want to spin your head, think about Warren Caster. Caster was the guy who brought two rifles into the TSBD two days before the assassination. One of the guys who checked them out was Oswald. Supposedly he got the idea of killing Kennedy from Caster's guns. What's mind-boggling about Caster is that he was interviewed some time later and said the FBI NEVER EVEN CHECKED to see if he was telling the truth about taking the rifles home. What killed me was when I realized that he showed off the rifles on the way up to his office on the fourth floor and that they were in cases. There is no report of anyone checking the rifles on the way out. Well, that's a classic scam right? A person carrries something in in a box, reveals the contents, then leaves with the box, leaving the contents behind. As soon as the person gets outside he refills the box with extra contents so no one is the wiser. A classic Mission Impossible scheme. What made me extra suspicious is that Caster wasn't even at the TSBD on the 22nd, which gave him a perfect alibi. If someone can tie him to Walker or the Klan, I'll buy his involvement in a heartbeat. The fourth floor was the top floor for offices, above that was just warehouse space. It wouldn't have been hard at all for someone to open up a closet and sneak the guns up a couple of floors around lunchtime after everyone's come down. Maybe the guns were hidden back inside afterwards; it's hard to say how thoroughly the TSBD offices were searched once the sniper's nest was found.

I'm just throwing stuff out in case anyone wants to run with it.

Thanks Pat, I remember reading about Caster a few times. It seemed like he had a rock solid alibi, as he was visiting a university some distance away on that day. Of course his part may have been to only provide the weapons. What made it interesting is that he brought in a 30.06 Mauser and a .22 caliber, that he had bought for his son. A Mauser was the weapon found on the 6th floor, as identified by Officers Weitzman and Craig. As I recall Caster displayed the rifles in Truly's office. I could be wrong though.

[Dixie Dea]

Geneva Hines, working at the 2nd Floor Credit Desk at the TSBD testified to an odd occurance at Warren Caster's Office.

Caster was the District Manager of the Southwest Publishing Co, also located on the TSBD 2nd floor. As already mentioned, Caster was gone that day to a meeting and lunch with a Professor.

Although the Professor was not questioned about this meeting!

All those working in Geneva's office wanted to see the Motorcade, so she told them to go on and she would stay in the office to answer the phones. This is a portion of her WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the window?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you look out?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Miss HINE. I saw the escort car come first up the middle of Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Going north on Houston Street?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?

Miss HINE. Three.

Mr. BALL Could you tell where the shots were coming from?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.

Mr. BALL. How do you know that?

Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.

Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?

395

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.

Mr. BALL. That is when you were at the window, is that right?

Miss HINE Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know,

lying down on the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. That was on Houston Street?

Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm.

Mr. BALL. You could see could you see any part of Elm?

Miss HINE. East, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could see east on Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into the foyer.

Mr. BALL. You mean the front door to the office?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That opens on---

Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and---

Mr. BALL. Steps lead down?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing company.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.

Mr. BALL. On to Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. I See.

Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.

Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was which company?

Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?

Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?

Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.

________________

Dixie

[Steve Thomas]

Ron,

Carr's testimony about 2 or 3 men running out of the TSBD is dubious,

In his Clay Shaw trial testimony, Carr said he could be sure if the men he saw came out from the side door on Houston, or the back door on the north side of the building.

Victoria Adams said she left the TSBD by the Houston St. door.

There was another door on the northside of the building and anyone leaving be that door might have been facilitated by people standing guard at that door.

Officer Welcome Barnett said:

Welcome Barnett (7H542-543)

"…so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and THERE WERE OFFICERS DOWN HERE WATCHING THIS BACK DOOR , I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape."

As near as I can figure it, W.B. Barnett was the first policeman to arrive at the TSBD and did so within 90 seconds or so. (He was on the Elm and Houston corner.)

So who were these officers in the back of the building?

Maybe the same ones David Harkness saw:

David Harkness (6H312)

Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there?

Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

And, they could have been the same ones James Romack saw:

James Romack (6H281)

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way?

Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here at the very entrance, and just stood there.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up from the street to the dock on the north side of the building?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Steve Thomas