Nonconspiracists United

[Steven Gaal]

Dear Pat, Thanks the post was corrected. I left in that it was a formal briefing per link. I wanted to illustrate that the CIA can lie to the President.

As per Mantick,the Doctor has put the X-rays films under analysis with an instrument he brought to the archives. Said analysis of instrument datum indicated X-ray alteration. THANKS Steve GAAL

[Pat Speer]

I'd like to post a debate between a friend of mine, Chris Dolmar, and Ken Rahn, which took place over a period of months during June and September 2001:

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net.co.uk/JFKhargis.htm[/url]

I invited Ken Rahn to defend his views on our Forum. He refused, saying he did not think it was “educational”.

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Dr.J. Fetzer : Quote:

"Has no one observed that Ken Rahn's work is useless

as evidence that implicates Lee Oswald because (1)

the lead used to manufacture Mannlicher-Carcano ammo

was recycled and therefore is not sufficiently uni-

form to establish comparisons and (2) that even if

his work were "good as gold", it would establish at

most that some of the rounds were fired using Mann-

licher-Carcanos but not (a) that they were fired

from the Book Depository as opposed to the Dal-Tex,

for example, much less ( that they were fired by

Lee Oswald, who was actually on the second floor

drinking a coke at the time of the assassination?

I don't know why anyone takes Ken Rahn seriously."

Jim

B..

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I'm glad to agree with Fetzer on this point.

Guinn and his disciple Rahn were both overly impressed with the NAA results. While Wallace Milam's writings have thoroughly exposed the errors of their ways, I'd like to put another nail in the NAA coffin by pointing out the results of three sets of tests. In accordance with Guinn's testimony, the three most important elements tested were Antimony, Silver, and Copper. Numbers reflect the scores of the two samples in parts per million.

A vs. B. 647-602 Antimony, 8.6-7.9 Silver, and 44-40 Copper.

C vs. D, 833-797 Antimony, 9.8-7.9 Silver, and 994-58 Copper.

E vs. F, 732-730 Antimony, 15.9-15.3 Silver, and 23-21 Copper.

So which two samples were described by Guinn as being from the same bullet?

Well, that's actually a trick question, as A vs. B actually represents FOUR samples, a fragment found in Kennedy's brain, two fragments found on the floor of the limousine, and the nose of the bullet found on the front seat. And yet notice how uniform they seem to be. One might actually conclude they are probably from the same bullet. And Guinn did. Well, since they were so uniform and since Guinn also concluded the wrist fragments came from the magic bullet, then E vs. F must be the comparison between the magic bullet and the wrist fragment, right?

WRONG. E vs. F is a comparison between 6001B and 6003A, test bullets taken from separate batches of ammunition from separate years. Subsequent tests showed them to be quite dissimilar.

Which leaves C vs. D as the wrist/magic comparison. Since the Silver and Copper ranges are substantial, it's safe to say Guinn's conclusion came purely from the similarity on Antimony. He ignored everything else and focused on those two numbers...833-797. And yet, when one looks at the test results, one finds that 6002 A2 was at 869, and 6001 B4 was at 791, within 36 ppm of the magic bullet and the wrist fragment, respectively, and this out of only 40 tests beyond the magic bulet and wrist fragment. This translates to there being a 5% chance for the wrist and magic fragments to fall within 36 ppm randomly. Of the 14 different test bullets in fact, three of them, 6000a, 6001d, and 6001A, were within 15 ppm, even though they were from different years and different batches. This reduces the 833-797 numbers to nothing near the relevance Guinn and Rahn attach to it. When one takes into account the other six elements tested, the logical deduction is actually the opposite of Guinn's ...that it's highly probable the magic bullet and the wrist fragment ARE NOT related.

Since 4 related items should create a larger range than 2 related items, we should look at a comparison of ranges of the 4 fragments found in the car vs. the magic bullet/wrist fragment on the 7 elements besides lead tested by Guinn.

Antimony: 4 fragments 647-602, magic/wrist 833-797

Silver: 4 fragments 8.6-7.9, magic/wrist 9.8-7.9

Copper: 4 fragments 44-40, magic/wrist 994-58

Aluminum: 4 fragments 5.5-1.1, magic/wrist 8.1-0

Manganese: 4 fragments 0.1-0.01, magic/wrist 0.09-0.07

Sodium: 4 fragments 134-9, magic/wrist 120-5

Chlorine: 4 fragments 59-22, magic/wrist 257-19

Since the range of 2 items should be smaller than the range of 4 items (7 out of 8 times), and since the range difference should usually be significant, it's obvious that Manganese is the only element that suggests the magic bullet and wrist fragment are related, and that Antimony and Sodium are also consistent with that analysis. It's equally obvious that the other 4 elements tested are strongly suggestive there was NO relation at all between the two, as the range of the two is many times that of the range of the 4. The proper conclusion then should be that the magic bullet and the wrist fragment are MOST PROBABLY not related.

In short, anyone whose argument for the SBT relies on Guinn's analysis has clearly never studied Guinn's results. His conclusion was wrong; whether he sincerely believed his testimony or was asked to lie is open to conjecture.

Edited April 19, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

Pat,

Thanks for the input. Your criticisms are, for the most part, valid, even if acerbic. My response -

·

·  Ford ‘knew’ – see Max Holland’s research – simple google search – please cite HSCA’s referenece to ‘prove’ he lied.

· If Life magazine was promoting the Lone Assassin position why did the mag devote a cover story, in 1966, to John Connally and the Zapruder film which seemed, at the time, to negate the WR’s conclusions re: single-bullet conclusion?

·

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Mel, I'm sorry if my comments seemed hostile. I have nothing but respect for the way you've handled yourself on this forum. Here's a link to Ford's testimony before the HSCA where he makes it clear he did not know of the attempts on Castro while he was on the WC. it's page 570 of vol. 3 if the link fails.

http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/hsca..._Vol3_0287b.htm

I agree that Life was pushing a conspiracy angle for a period in 1966, but it is my understanding that Dick Billings became disconcerted with Garrison when he began to focus on the CIA and the anti-Castro Cubans, rather than Castro, and that he turned around and gave his notes on Garrison to Clay Shaw's attorneys. If I'm mixing him up with one of the others who turned on Garrison...please set me straight.

[Tim Gratz]

John noted a European article that stated:

Europe might perhaps be induced to believe the explanation of the solitary individual killing the President of the United States upon the street, as not even a dog is killed. But the explanation of the police informer, the proprietor of a house of ill repute, the pimp, the professional gangster killing the President's assassin out of patriotic indignation, Europe does not believe it for a moment.

But it was the Ruby murder of Oswald that also sparked US doubt that Oswald acted alone. That was probably one reason why the FBI ordered its London office to stop investigating reports that Jack Ruby had associated with an American gangster named Santo Trafficante, Jr. Any connection of Ruby with organized crime would undermine the theory that he acted out of patriotic indignation.

Query what would have happened had Oswald been killed by Tippitt or by the arresting police officers? (Which, I'm sure we would all agree was most likely part of the plot, whether LHO had any involvement in the conspiracy or not.)

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Mel.

Before my "little question" gets lost, can I ask again. What evidence do you have to support your belife that LHO was a, Crazed Psychotic.

Thanks Steve.

[Mel Ayton]

Mel.

Before my "little question" gets lost, can I ask again. What evidence do you have to support your belife that LHO was a, Crazed Psychotic.

Thanks Steve.

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Steve,

'Crazed psychotic' is a literary term for descriptive purposes when an act of madness is committed, which is what I believe happened.He was certainly a highly unstable individual - he tried to kill General Walker, he killed JFK and he also killed JD Tippit - is that not the actions of a 'crazed psychotic' ? - non-medical terminology used, of course.I think Diane Holloway's The Mind of Oswald may satisfy you as to Oswald's level of mental illness.

[Mel Ayton]

Pat,

Thanks for the input. Your criticisms are, for the most part, valid, even if acerbic. My response -

·

·  Ford ‘knew’ – see Max Holland’s research – simple google search – please cite HSCA’s referenece to ‘prove’ he lied.

· If Life magazine was promoting the Lone Assassin position why did the mag devote a cover story, in 1966, to John Connally and the Zapruder film which seemed, at the time, to negate the WR’s conclusions re: single-bullet conclusion?

·

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Mel, I'm sorry if my comments seemed hostile. I have nothing but respect for the way you've handled yourself on this forum. Here's a link to Ford's testimony before the HSCA where he makes it clear he did not know of the attempts on Castro while he was on the WC. it's page 570 of vol. 3 if the link fails.

http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/hsca..._Vol3_0287b.htm

I agree that Life was pushing a conspiracy angle for a period in 1966, but it is my understanding that Dick Billings became disconcerted with Garrison when he began to focus on the CIA and the anti-Castro Cubans, rather than Castro, and that he turned around and gave his notes on Garrison to Clay Shaw's attorneys. If I'm mixing him up with one of the others who turned on Garrison...please set me straight.

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Thanks Pat,

I appreciate your response. Do you have a copy of Patricia Lambert's book on the Garrison fiasco? - False Witness - she describes Billings role.I'll try and respond to the other issues when I get time.Thanks for your patience.

Mel

http://www.melayton.co.uk

[Charles Black]

Hello Mel

During the course of his life, LHO was subjected to many medical examinations. He was examined by U.S. doctors both military and civilian, doctors within the USSR, and by various inteligence agencies within this country and without who have the capabilities to determine whether a person is a "crazed psychotic". I have never seen this diagnosis administered. Furthermore you claim that the proof is that he murdered JFK, officer Tippet and attempted to murder that upstanding General. Are their any court records that substantiate or support your personal guilty verdict? Is this your form of vigilante justice? Or perhaps is this just your personal opinion? Charlie Black

[Antti Hynonen]

Mel Ayton Posted Today, 12:04 PM

  QUOTE(Stephen Turner @ Apr 18 2005, 09:01 AM)

Mel.

Before my "little question" gets lost, can I ask again. What evidence do you have to support your belife that LHO was a, Crazed Psychotic.

Thanks Steve.

Steve,

'Crazed psychotic' is a literary term for descriptive purposes when an act of madness is committed, which is what I believe happened.He was certainly a highly unstable individual - he tried to kill General Walker, he killed JFK and he also killed JD Tippit - is that not the actions of a 'crazed psychotic' ? - non-medical terminology used, of course.I think Diane Holloway's The Mind of Oswald may satisfy you as to Oswald's level of mental illness.

Neither of these assassinations, nor the attempt on Walker have been proven as deeds committed by Oswald beyond reasonable doubt, in court or outside of court. Just about all the individuals that I've read about, who were acquainted with Oswald or somehow associated with Oswald did not describe him as a 'crazed psychotic' or anything of the like.

[John Simkin]

'Crazed psychotic' is a literary term for descriptive purposes when an act of madness is committed, which is what I believe happened.He was certainly a highly unstable individual - he tried to kill General Walker, he killed JFK and he also killed JD Tippit - is that  not the actions of a 'crazed psychotic' ? - non-medical terminology used, of course. I think Diane Holloway's The Mind of Oswald may satisfy you as to Oswald's level of mental illness.

There is an interesting passage in Thomas G. Buchanan's book, Who Killed Kennedy? (1964) about the supposed attack on General Walker:

But while the FBI and other agencies apparently were trying to recruit Lee Oswald, and presumably believed they were succeeding, he was simultaneously engaged in a quite different operation, of which it was certainly their duty to have been aware. In March, 1963, Oswald is said to have acquired the rifle which was destined to become the Kennedy assassination weapon. It appears that the FBI knew that he had it, prior to the murder of the President, for it was only one day later that the FBI announced a 6.5 Carcano was in his possession. Since the rifle had been purchased under an assumed name from a mail-order house in Chicago, it would seem exceedingly unlikely that, within one day, the FBI had traced it, if they did not have this information in their files already. Yet, despite Lee Oswald's turbulent career, no one took Oswald's rifle from him-even though, on April 10, they had good reason to suppose he had already used it to attempt a murder. This, at least, is what the FBI now tells us, and it is confirmed by Oswald's widow.

Who was Oswald's target on the night of April 10? According to the same two sources, it was the most dedicated enemy of John Fitzgerald Kennedy in the United States - a citizen of Dallas named Edwin Anderson Walker. Mr. Walker was, until the Kennedy Administration, a high-ranking general commanding troops in Germany. He used that post to pass out literature among the men that he commanded-literature he had been receiving from the John Birch Society, a private patriotic group which had a rather low opinion of the President of the United States. The President, of course, was Walker's commander-in-chief, a fact which did not in the least deter him from continuing his anti-Kennedy propaganda. The result of this was that the general soon found himself in a civilian uniform in Dallas, with no way to give vent to his feeling of frustration other than to erect a flag on his front lawn and lower it to half mast each time that he felt that the United States was headed for damnation-an emotion that he feels quite often.

Walker lives on fashionable Turtle Creek boulevard. Behind his house, there is an alley, and the FBI informs us that Lee Harvey Oswald, a few weeks after he had received his 6.5 Carcano, came into this alley on the night of April to and tried to murder Walker. Thus, we have the picture of our mighty hunter - the same deadly marksman who, in the Marines, had fired 191 out of a possible 250-stalking his immobile prey, who was inside his house now, seated at a desk, illuminated by bright lights. The sniper crept towards his victim, raised his trusty weapon, resting it upon a picket fence to hold it steady, squeezed the trigger... and he missed the general completely! Walker stated later that the only thing that saved his life was that he turned his head, just at that moment. For a marksman capable of firing three shots in five seconds at a speeding car, however, that should not have been completely disconcerting. Oswald benefited from complete protection. Why did he become so easily discouraged? One will never know the answer to these questions. We can only state that his intended target providentially was spared for new adventures.

Were Lee Oswald and Walker already known to each other? As much is implied by a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, who says that the police discovered Oswald's notebook, after the assassination of the President - and in it was Walker's name and telephone number. One must assume that Oswald's memory was very bad indeed, if it was necessary for him to write down the name of someone whom he meant to murder.

[Alan Healy]

Steve,

'Crazed psychotic' is a literary term for descriptive purposes when an act of madness is committed, which is what I believe happened.He was certainly a highly unstable individual - he tried to kill General Walker, he killed JFK and he also killed JD Tippit - is that  not the actions of a 'crazed psychotic' ? - non-medical terminology used, of course.I think Diane Holloway's The Mind of Oswald may satisfy you as to Oswald's level of mental illness.

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It has obviously influenced you Mel.

The only thing I find interesting about your original post is where you seem to be saying that there are people out there making money off the assassination.

The enduring popularity of conspiracies makes them a highly lucrative enterprise and vested interests keep the myths alive. Six million visitors a year visit the JFK assassination site, where “researchers” peddle books, autopsy pictures and signed “grassy knoll witness” photos. The visitor can experience a virtual “Disneyland” of assassination themes, from limousine rides which trace JFK’s route from Love Field to Dealey Plaza to bus trips which follow Oswald’s escape route. It is a multimillion-dollar industry promoting books, videos, CD-ROMs, T-Shirts, and even board games. Conspiracy theories have brought the assassination into the world of entertainment.

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Then you post the link to your website, that has as it's main theme, these books that you are trying to sell.

Do I need to say the word Mel?

Besides that, it would of been more accurate to entitle your piece "I know who killed Kennedy".

You really think this effort will help sell your books?

Or did it already?

No bad publicity right? Doesn't exist.

Where is DVP when you need him?

/salute

[Dawn Meredith]

Thanks Pat,

I appreciate your response. Do you have a copy of Patricia Lambert's book on the Garrison fiasco? - False Witness - she describes Billings role.I'll try and respond to the other issues when I get time.Thanks for your patience.

Mel

http://www.melayton.co.uk

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__________________________

For an excellent "balance" to "False Witness" I strongly recommend three readings:

JimDiEugenio and Bill Davy's review of this book in Probe Vol 6, No.4 ("False Witness:Aptly Titled), as well as Jim's book on the Garrison investigation: Destiny Betrayed and Bill Davy's "Let Justice Be Done".

Dawn

[Pat Speer]

Thanks Pat,

I appreciate your response. Do you have a copy of Patricia Lambert's book on the Garrison fiasco? - False Witness - she describes Billings role.I'll try and respond to the other issues when I get time.Thanks for your patience.

Mel

http://www.melayton.co.uk

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I haven't read Lambert's book, but have read a lot of the anti-Garrison stuff online at Dave Reitzes' site. As on so many of the issues, I'm right in the middle. I believe Garrison AND Billings were well-intentioned. Garrison smelled a rat and ran around the house looking for it, over-turning furniture; men like Billings also smelled a rat but were reluctant to tear up the floor to find it.

I have read the Di Eugenio book.

P.S. I re-wrote and added to my earlier post about the NAA tests of Vincent Guinn.

Edited April 18, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Terry Mauro]

Thanks Pat,

I appreciate your response. Do you have a copy of Patricia Lambert's book on the Garrison fiasco? - False Witness - she describes Billings role.I'll try and respond to the other issues when I get time.Thanks for your patience.

Mel

http://www.melayton.co.uk

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I haven't read Lambert's book, but have read a lot of the anti-Garrison stuff online at Dave Reitzes' site. As on so many of the issues, I'm right in the middle. I believe Garrison AND Billings were well-intentioned. Garrison smelled a rat and ran around the house looking for it, over-turning furniture; men like Billings also smelled a rat but were reluctant to tear up the floor to find it.

I have read the Di Eugenio book.

P.S. I re-wrote and added to my earlier post about the NAA tests of Vincent Guinn.

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P.S.  I re-wrote and added to my earlier post about the NAA tests of Vincent Guinn.

And, I meant to thank you for posting that information last night, Pat.

That was very important information, to me.

Thanks,

Ter

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Mel.

Before my "little question" gets lost, can I ask again. What evidence do you have to support your belife that LHO was a, Crazed Psychotic.

Thanks Steve.

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Steve,

'Crazed psychotic' is a literary term for descriptive purposes when an act of madness is committed, which is what I believe happened.He was certainly a highly unstable individual - he tried to kill General Walker, he killed JFK and he also killed JD Tippit - is that not the actions of a 'crazed psychotic' ? - non-medical terminology used, of course.I think Diane Holloway's The Mind of Oswald may satisfy you as to Oswald's level of mental illness.

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Mel.

Thanks for the reply. NO, Psychosis is not a literary term, it is a medical term & as such has certain conotations, espescially to the untrained. For people who know very little about psychiatry, it conjures up images of Anthonty Perkins dressed as his mother, & is just plain misleading when applied to LHO. As I know it is not your purpose to intentionally mislead, I would ask you to withdraw this term. Of course what that leaves as Oswalds motive for the murdrer is another matter.