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Tim Gratz

The Death of Marilyn Monroe

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Tim, before you get too far along on this whole thing, I suggest you read Noguchi's book Coroner and Daryl Gates' book Chief. Both of them go into detail about the investigations into Monroe's death. Gates, while insisting it was a suicide, throws in the juicy tidbit that the LAPD had spies at LAX and that Bobby Kennedy was indeed in town on the night of MM's death. (Pat Speer)

If I remember correctly, wasn't there an L.A. patrol cop who pulled over a speeding limo late at night near where Monroe lived? He claimed Peter Lawford was behind the wheel and Robert Kennedy was in the back. Kennedy was supposed to be in San Francisco.

I'm sure this was mentioned in some documentary on Monroe's death.

FWIW.

James

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Mr. Carroll wrote:

Is it not the case that the lovely Marilyn was found dead in her own bedroom, and that the windows and door were all locked from the inside? If so, then Harry Houdini is your killer.

Raymond, you are correct that she was found in a locked room but there are explanations for this.

On a superficial level, there is a whole genre of mystery fiction involving "locked door murders", as I assume you know. Wish I could remember one or two of the best. May have been Ellery Queen.

Seems to me there are five possibilities here:

1) Monroe committed suicide.

2) She accidentally overdosed.

3) Someone trying to sedate her accidentally overdosed her and so it was an accidental death.

4) She was murdered at the behest of RFK.

5) She was murdered by someone else, presumably the mafia, in an attempt to dirty RFK--presumably not to actually convict him of the murder.

Given the amount of barbituates, it seemd 2 and 3 can be rationally eliminated. Given the lack of traces in her stomach and other organs a suicide by oral ingestion also seems unlikely. Leaving 4 and 5, murder. For it seems to me that if the toxicology reports clearly demonstrate murder, there must be an answer to the locked room issue.

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Tim Gratz wrote: "Given the amount of barbituates, it seemd 2 and 3 can be rationally eliminated. Given the lack of traces in her stomach and other organs a suicide by oral ingestion also seems unlikely. Leaving 4 and 5, murder. For it seems to me that if the toxicology reports clearly demonstrate murder, there must be an answer to the locked room issue".

Tim, I think Pat Speer has already dealt with this issue by reference to Noguci's findings as to Marilyn's slow descent into physical death from her initial brain-death that followed ingestion.

there must be an answer to the locked room issue. [/color

I may have read some mystery fiction on this, can't recall just now. If you ever find a convincing answer, however, I will look into it. Right after we solve the death of JFK, who really was murdered, lest we forget.

Lest we forget.

Ray

"Do not block the way of inquiry" C.S. Peirce

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In this post I will examine the “evidence” that the Mafia killed Monroe to dirty RFK.

First, I want to add that RFK should be given the “benefit of the doubt” as not only a law-abiding citizen but in fact the chief law enforcement officer in the U.S. There is no indication that he had previously committed any other violent crimes, or any crimes for that matter. I should add, however, that some who argue that the CIA killed JFK cite the CIA’s willingness to engage in assassination plots on foreign soil as evidence that it might have been willing to commit a domestic assassination. Provided RFK was witting of the assassination plots and approved them, the same argument could be made with respect to RFK. Indeed, since the CIA memo, if true, indicates she as about to expose the plots to kill Castro, RFK could have tried to justify her murder on national security grounds. For if Monroe talked she would not only disclose the CIA plots but demonstrate that the Kennedys had been aware of them.

Nevertheless, I submit that one should strongly consider the Mafia since the Mafia was in the murder business.

According to the book “Doublecross” by Chuck Giancana, Sam’s brother, Sam admitted to his brother that he had killed Monroe. In the same book, of course, Chuck says Sam admitted that his organization killed Kennedy and he describes who did it. I would be interested in member’s comments on the reliability of this book. Does it make sense that Sam would “confess” to his brother? Chuck even says that he felt his life was endangered by what Sam had told him about the Kennedy assassination, and presumably about the Monroe murder as well since Chuck says Sam attributed that to the CIA.

In any event, let me summarize the Monroe murder per “Doublecross”.

“Doublecross” states that the Mafia killed Monroe at the bequest of the CIA, that the CIA was concerned that, due to her unhappiness that the Kennedys were “dumping” her, she was about to go public and expose many secrets, including the CIA plots to kill Castro.

If this is true, of course, while it exonerates RFK in from complicity in the Monroe murder, it is still fairly damning to JFK or RFK because it: 1) demonstrates they were witting of the plots against Castro; and 2) one or both of them disclosed national secrets to Monroe. This is made worse by Monroe’s involvement by a Communist agent when she visited Mexico (see Wolfe's book re Frederick Vanderbilt Field).

According to “Doublecross” a week before her death Monroe had been a guest at the Cal-Neva Lodge. Other guests there that weekend included Giancana, Sinatra and Peter Lawford. The book claims Giancana had sex with Monroe that weekend.

The following week (per "Doublecross") Giancana received word from the CIA that Bobby Kennedy would be in California the weekend of August 4th. Mooney ordered four men to California to murder Monroe. The book names two of them: Needles Gianola, the co-ordinator, and his assistant Mugsy Tortorella. The other two were assassins from Detroit and Kansas City. (Sam’s “confession” to his brother was apparently quite detailed.)

“Doublecross” states that the killers listened to the electronic surveillance at Monroe’s house waiting for RFK to show up. The book ignores the fact that RFK was officially in San Francisco and it does not state how the Mafia knew RFK would make a surreptitious trip to LA to meet Monroe.

According to “Doublecross” RFK arrived late in the afternoon and he had an argument with Monroe. RFK was accompanied by a doctor who gave her a shot to “calm her down”. (Wolfe’s book identifies the doctor.)

The assassins entered Marilyn’s home around midnight. She struggles briefly but the men forced her to the bed and taped her mouth shut. Then they inserted a Nembutal depository into her anus. The book says this method was perfect since the heavy dosage was quckly absorbed through the anal membrane and into the bloodstream. The suppository was as fast-acting as an injection but it left no needle mark for a pathologist to discover.

There were empty bottles of barbiturates next to Monroe’s bed. Presumably bottles had been emptied and left to indicate a suicide. The book also does not disclose how the locked room was created.

According to “Doublecross” Giancana hoped that the investigation of Monroe’s death that was sure to follow would reveal that RFK had been at her house only hours earlier and that his romantic involvement with her would be exposed.

According to “Doublecross” when Peter Lawford and RFK learned of Monroe’s death, they were concerned that she had somehow died as a result of the drugs the doctor had administered to her in RFK’s presence and that he would be implicated in her death. He ordered Peter Lawford and private detective Fred Otash to Monroe’s house to clean it of any evidence linking Monroe to the Kennedys. The book says J. Edgar Hoover also ordered the FBI to help “cover up” any indications of RFK’s presence at the scene of Monroe’s death.

I need to study Wolfe’s book more closely to see if the scenario set forth in “Doublecross” is consistent with the events of the night of Monroe’s death as developed much more extensively in “The Lastl Days of Marilyn Monroe”. In the meantime. I would be interested in comments on the reliability of “Doublecross” by anyone who has read the book. Presumably, if “Doublecross” gets the Kennedy assassination wrong, its depiction of the death of Marilyn Monroe should also be suspect.

I would also suggest that the Mafia may have killed Monroe absent a request to do so by the CIA. In other words, Sam could have told his brother Chuck the truth, but not "the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

Edited by Tim Gratz

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Tim Gratz wrote: "I would be interested in comments on the reliability of “Doublecross” by anyone who has read the book. Presumably, if “Doublecross” gets the Kennedy assassination wrong, its depiction of the death of Marilyn Monroe should also be suspect."

Tim, in my post of April 3, in the thread "most popular JFK books" I mentioned that "doublecross" is a novel masquerading as nonfiction. It was dreamed up by a clever New York literary agent.

Ray

"Do not block the way of inquiry" C. S. Peirce

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I agree with Mr. Carroll that our first priority should be solving the murder of JFK. The issue before us (in this thread) is if the death of Marilyn Monroe has any relevance to the assassination. Presumably, if it was either a suicide or an accidental death it does not.

On perhaps a superficial level, the sheer number of pills Monroe would have had to swallow to reach the barbituate level found in her bloodstream argues quite forcefully against a suicide. As Wolfe's book notes, she would have been dead before she could ingest the final pills. I find this argument compelling that her death was neither accidental nor a suicide.

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"Tim Gratz wrote: As Wolfe's book notes, she would have been dead before she could ingest the final pills. I find this argument compelling that her death was neither accidental nor a suicide."

Tim, It only takes a few moments to swallow a handful of pills. Every night I take 8 large omega-3 capsules in two swallows.

But why do you prefer the opinion of this Wolfe chap to the opinion of Noguchi? What is so great about Wolfe that gives him greater medical expertise in these matters generally, or in this case specifically?

And have you solved the locked door/window problem yet?

Ray

"Do not block the way of inquiry" C. S. Peirce

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To Raymond:

Maybe I just like conspiracy theories!

But Marilyn's psychiatrist stated she was not suicidal. Which is another indication she did not injest the incredibly large number of pills necessary (at least fifty-two, a far cry from the eight pills you swallow).

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I remember seeing a documentary in which a telephone conversation between a reporter and Dr. Ralph Greenson was recorded.

In the phone call the reporter asked Greenson how Marilyn had died, to which he gave a curious answer.

He said " ask Bobby Kennedy "

Why would he say that, if the Kennedy's were not involved. ??

Very strange.

My impression of the events is that Bobby stepped in with MM when she got a little possessive and became a threat to JFK's presidency, and that this relationship was not sexual, at least not at first. (There is no evidence Bobby was a womanizer; to Hoover's disgust, among others, he kept pretty busy with Ethel.) Not surprisingly, MM quickly grew dependent on Bobby's compassion. The relationship may have become sexual at this point. Ultimately, Bobby had to cut her off. Since she committed suicide within a short period after this, many blamed Bobby, whether or not he was on the scene. The idea that he actually had her murdered was developed over a number of years, and is, in my opinion, a disgusting lie, similar in intent and content to the rumors that Courtney Love killed Kurt Cobain.

Edited by Pat Speer

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Pat, as I posted earlier, I do not like to contemplate that Robert F. Kennedy might have been a murderer.

But Wolfe's book makes a strong case that he was at her house the day she died.

If he was, and he was innocent, why were their such efforts to hide the fact that he was present? Granted, it could just be that he wanted to avoid the embarrassment that even his involvement with Monroe would create.

The Dr. Greeson mentioned in Robin's post is of course the doctor mentioned in the "Doublecross" book. He is extensively covered in Wolfe's book.

I am curious if you reject the thesis of the Wolfe book without having read it? Obviously my scattered posts here do not do justice to his 500 place book, in which a source is cited for almost every statement.

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James wrote:

If I remember correctly, wasn't there an L.A. patrol cop who pulled over a speeding limo late at night near where Monroe lived? He claimed Peter Lawford was behind the wheel and Robert Kennedy was in the back. Kennedy was supposed to be in San Francisco.

I'm sure this was mentioned in some documentary on Monroe's death.

For once, James is wrong!

It was not an LA Cop. It was a Bevery Hills police officer named Lynn (male) Franklin who stopped a dark Mercedes on Olympic Boulevard in Beverly Hills. Franklin immediately recognized Peter Lawford as the driver. He was amazed to see Attorney General Kennedy in the back seat. Seated in the back seat next to Kennedy was a man Franklin later identified as Dr. Ralph Greeson. Lawford told Franbklin he was driving Kennedy to the Beverly Hilton Hotel on an urgent matter.

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One of the obvious reasons why the "Marilyn Monroe case" is relevant to the assassination is because of the CIA memo, and the information in "Doublecross", that Marilyn Monroe was aware of the plots against Castro.

The wiretaps indicate the information came from the Kennedys.

Another possibility, of course, is that she was informed of the plots by Sam Giancana. Giancana had, of course, revealed the plots to Phyllis McGuire and her sisters in October of 1960, although at that time he did not link them to the U.S. government.

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Regarding the "locked room", "The Last Days of Marilyn Monroe" quotes a witness with a simple explanation. There was no locked room. It was simply part of a cover-up. The book quotes the witness as saying Monroe died in the guest cottage and her body was moved to the living room.

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"The Last Days of Marilyn Monroe" suggests the involvement of Captain James Hamilton in the possible cover-up of the circumstances regarding Monroe's death.

Hamilton had close connections with the Kennedys. He was a member of the Kennedy security team at the 1960 Democratic Convention in Los Angeles (as was, by the way. Lt. Daryl Gates, who later became chief and gained notoriety during the Simpson case). One of the photos in the book shows JFK with Hamilton and then police chief William Parker.

Hamilton was the head of the LAPD Intelligence Division. Several LAPD officers stated Hamilton was the officer in charge at the Monroe death scene.

Hamilton apparently first met RFK when he was working on the McCellan Committee investigating organized crime. Hamilton is briefly mentioned in Kennedy's "The Enemy Within". According to the memoirs of Daryl Gates, when RFK was investigating teamster activity on the West Coast, he had a desk next to Hamilton's in the LAPD Intelligence Division, and Hamilton and RFK became closae friends.

In 1963 RFK helped arrange for Hamilton's executive position at the National Football League.

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Robin wrote:

At 4:25 a.m. Sunday morning, August 5 Sergeant Jack Clemmons of the West Los Angeles Police Department got a call that he would never forget. Dr. Hyman Engelberg, Marilyn's personal physician, told him that she had committed suicide. When he and the backup police car that he had ordered arrived at Marilyn's home, there were three people Eunice Murray, Dr. Ralph Greenson and Dr. Hyman Engelberg.

Wolfe conducted extensive interviews with Clemmons and he writes that Clemmons was convinced Monroe was murdered.

There were several things that Clemmons considered strange. First, although dr. Greeson discovered the body at 12:30 am the police were not called until 4:25 am.

Second, although an overdose of sleeping pills usually causes a victim to suufer convulsions and vomiting, there was no vomit present.

Also, the question arose how Marilyn swallowed the sleeping capsules since there was no drinking glass present.

My question to Raymond Carroll is: I assume you use water when you swallow your capsules?

How many members believe Marilyn Monroe swallowed 50 capsules without water? About the only thing more preposterous than that, I suppose, is the single bullet theory.

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