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Guest Stephen Turner

Three Tramps.

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That's not quite the way it happened.  Bowers was never given a clearance to allow trains to move through the yards; he simply did so on his own authority in about that time frame.  At that point in time a train coming from downtown Dallas (to the East) passed through the yard headed out across the railroad bridge and as it passed beneath him he looked down and saw a single individual in an open hopper car.  He stopped that train and reported the individual to police.  This is all time stamped on the police radio log.  We have no comment from Bowers himself about any further activity, apparently he didn't think it noteworthy enough to mention in his interview.  Separately other tramps were taken into custody and three were walked down in front of the TSBD while being taken into custody. You find mention of other tramps being taken in during the search in the police call log.  Nothing at all records three men being found in a rail car; only Bowers report of one man in a hopper.  Check out the call log for details.

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Some things to consider:

Did Lansdale really know three guys like the tramps personally?  Know somebody like, say, Charles Harrelson, personally?  Did these three matter enough to him for Lansdale to walk by and give them the "high sign"? 

If that is Lansdale in the photo, he may have seen the three tramps approaching under "police escort," and taken a stroll past them for a simple reconnaissance, without necessarily knowing them.

Where is that "Lansdale" figure heading, anyway?  He's not on Elm Street, he's on the Elm Street extension that leads to the parking lot behind the knoll.  Did he go to the parking lot, or cut back to Elm Street?

Don Roberdeau, in a post above, reports research that cites the tramps-Lansdale picture as taken c. 2:19 PM.  Is the "Lansdale" figure in any other photos or film taken at that time? 

Edited by David Andrews

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Remarkable documents on Chambers etc. 

Amazing the work and findings by members of this forum.

When one looks at the photo close up of the three tramps as they are being escorted you notice they are all clean shaven. As if they had shaved that morning. Train box car hobo's generally aren't so grooming conscious and where are their grooming accessories such as razors?

Their clothing was described as "dirty?" Doyle's clothes certainly do not look dirty or hoboish at all. In fact they look somewhat fashionable. Sports coat, knit shirt with a turned up collar, nice shoes. There is some wrinkling on Doyle's and the tall tramps jackets but not enough to look like they have slept overnight in dirty box cars. Same thing with soiling or stains.

Were the tramps ever described as smelling of liquor or wine?

Did any of the tramps appear to be teetering or in any other way impaired in their walking as if one or more was boozed up?

Even though the taller tramps hair is slightly tousled, the tramps look like they have had hair cuts recently enough to not look like grooming neglecting box car tramps.

The shorter tramp in back does have a more trampy look and his clothes are that wrinkled, but to me his appearance seems almost staged. That crumpled hat should show more soiling. That little bag he is carrying? What was recorded as far as it's contents? Maybe shaving items?

The escorting officer behind the tramps in the photo does seem very far back relative to the seriousness of the day and as Prouty pointed out, both officers seem to hold their guns in an unprofessional way.

And if the tall, thin, slightly stooped man in nice, non-working man clothing walking by and within inches of the tramps is Lansdale, My God!

Lansdale's presence in DP just two hours after the shooting could reveal huge answers as to who was involved in the conspiracy.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

David, I'm wondering if you have ever read anything about a second set of tramps being found in a grain car South of the triple underpass about an hour and a half after the assassination.  This may have been hashed out and debunked on the forum before, if so, you or anyone please direct me there.  What I read on line 4-5 years ago was about after the search of the railroad yard was deemed complete 1:30-2:00 lee Bowers was allowed to release a train headed Southbound (towards Reunion Arena now).  As it proceeded South over the triple underpass and beyond Bowers noticed men run to it and jump on a grain car from the East side of the tracks, South of the triple underpass, near the West end of the Postal Annex building and it's parking lot.  He stopped the train, called the police back, told them which car.  Three men found hunkerd down/dug in to the grain in an open topped car, only observable from above.  The really intriguing part was police reports supporting the story.  Wish I could remember where I read this, relatively sure I didn't dream it and I'm not making it up.  

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz3jo6OY_godQ3pEemhrSE8xcmc  is a link to an arrest document from 2:45pm of John Franklin Elrod who was picked up walking along the tracks where "someone" called DPD Dispatch about a man with a rifle walking along the RR tracks.

Mr. BALL - Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower?
Mr. BOWERS - A large number of people came, more than one direction. One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another line another large group went across the triangular area between Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them all the way up. Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.
Mr. BALL - In this area around your tower?
Mr. BOWERS - That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the trains until they .could be examined, and there was some transients taken on at least one train.

Bowers does say in his Lane interview that the last 2 shots did not sound the same... the FBI/DPD reminded him he was not a weapons expert... :rolleyes:

I also posted http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/?app=core&module=system&controller=content&do=find&content_class=forums_Topic&content_id=3846&content_commentid=349160 the comment from Harkness about the "Several individuals" taken from the train in addition to the three mentioned.

We are also to remember that while Gedney, Abrahms and Doyle spend a few days in jail - the first couple of them with Oswald there as well - while the three "tramps" in the photos were all released per Sheriff Decker.

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Prouty had many up close, face to face, personal one-on-one contacts and even conversations with Lansdale over several years.

When you get to know and interact with someone that closely and who is a very powerful and important figure so that your meetings and contacts with this person are more memorable than those with no name underlings or casual work personnel, you can identify them from the back ( in a clear full figure, relatively up close, professionally shot photo such as the DP one )  in my mind.

Again, if that is Edward Lansdale, I think this fact would be one of the most important ever in the entire JFK 11,22,1963 affair.

One thing Prouty doesn't get right in this video is the time of the Tramp walk.

It couldn't have been just 5 minutes after JFK was shot in DP.

 Just the amount of time it took for officers to get to and search the box cars and then find these three would have taken much more time than 5 minutes after 12:30 PM Dallas Time on 11,22,1963.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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Going to say this just one more time; locate and read Prouty's extended interview with the ARRB in terms of his remarks about Dallas, about the "stand down" and other related topics.  It will give you the needed context to evaluate this aspect of the tramps discussion.  

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Looking for a link to Prouty's interview with the ARRB, but cannot find one. Could you provide this?

Larry Hancock, are you of the opinion that Prouty "was" or "was not" a credible source in his views about the assassination?

Edited by Joe Bauer

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3 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Going to say this just one more time; locate and read Prouty's extended interview with the ARRB in terms of his remarks about Dallas, about the "stand down" and other related topics.  It will give you the needed context to evaluate this aspect of the tramps discussion.  

I started to watch the Prouty discussion about Landsdale yet Prouty thinks these men are taken thru DP within minutes of the shooting, adding drawa to the casual stride of the man walking the opposite way.

What strikes me is no mention of the leading cop making any movement or gesture to stop this man as he walks past him towards the three men.  That's supposed to be Bill Bass at the front with Marvin Wise at the back....

Also, the 3 arrest reports are on forms the County Jail did not use.

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6 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Going to say this just one more time; locate and read Prouty's extended interview with the ARRB in terms of his remarks about Dallas, about the "stand down" and other related topics.  It will give you the needed context to evaluate this aspect of the tramps discussion.  

I googled Fletcher Prouty, ARRB and Fletcher Prouty Assassinations Records Review Board, got box 5 of ___ files (left name at work), no way to access.  Have not tried to look at MFF.  Any ideas where to look?  Not Trying to be a pest, curious about the "needed context".  Grin, RB.

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46 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I googled Fletcher Prouty, ARRB and Fletcher Prouty Assassinations Records Review Board, got box 5 of ___ files (left name at work), no way to access.  Have not tried to look at MFF.  Any ideas where to look?  Not Trying to be a pest, curious about the "needed context".  Grin, RB.

Ron, This might be the document to which Larry referred.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=31974#relPageId=1&tab=page

 

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Close, but the document I was referring to is his voluntary Prouty interview with the ARRB, quite an extensive one which addresses a number of his articles and actual knowledge relating to the Dallas trip and protection.  There were also a number of ancillary internal ARRB memos about his statements and related inquires into the 112th.  Unfortunately I can't find it on the MFF at present and Rex is on vacation so he can't check right now.  I obtained the documents myself directly from NARA and provided them to JFK Lancer, they scanned them and made them available on a CD titled Keys to the Conspiracy.  It is offered by Lancer but Ron tells me he checked and the link on their site is to my book not the CD.  I will take it up with the folks at Lancer and try to straighten out the availability and also see if we can get the interview document on MFF.  I had assumed it was there by now but Rex bashed me about the head once again for thinking every single document was on MFF so it may not be.....yet.  Sorry for the confusion, but it is something everyone following this thread should have a chance to see, looks like that is just not as easy as I thought it would be...darn.

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9 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Close, but the document I was referring to is his voluntary Prouty interview with the ARRB, quite an extensive one which addresses a number of his articles and actual knowledge relating to the Dallas trip and protection.  There were also a number of ancillary internal ARRB memos about his statements and related inquires into the 112th.  Unfortunately I can't find it on the MFF at present and Rex is on vacation so he can't check right now.  I obtained the documents myself directly from NARA and provided them to JFK Lancer, they scanned them and made them available on a CD titled Keys to the Conspiracy.  It is offered by Lancer but Ron tells me he checked and the link on their site is to my book not the CD.  I will take it up with the folks at Lancer and try to straighten out the availability and also see if we can get the interview document on MFF.  I had assumed it was there by now but Rex bashed me about the head once again for thinking every single document was on MFF so it may not be.....yet.  Sorry for the confusion, but it is something everyone following this thread should have a chance to see, looks like that is just not as easy as I thought it would be...darn.

Thanks Larry, I just read the one I posted and I came back to note that that interview was only a half hour long. I guess that interview got a bit too hot for the Church Committee, or a good portion of the interview was deleted.

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