THE MAGIC BULLET TRIALS

[Tim Gratz]

Al, this makes eminent sense and I suspect you are right.

But even still why would the Manlicher Carcano be used? Was it because Oswald for whatever reason had ordered that rifle and therefore it had to be used in the frame?

[Pat Speer]

Al, this makes eminent sense and I suspect you are right.

But even still why would the Manlicher Carcano be used?  Was it because Oswald for whatever reason had ordered that rifle and therefore it had to be used in the frame?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I share Al's belief that the rifle was used because it was Oswald's rifle, and could tie him to the murder. I also share his belief that the un-silenced Carcano was fired over at least one other rifle, probably equipped with a silencer, to facilitate get-away for the other shooters. Oswald was set up. If you look at the paper bag that Oswald supposedly used to bring the rifle to work you can still see the folds of the paper from where it had contained something other than a rifle. Maybe he brought some ammo, who knows? or maybe it was curtain rods. But I do believe he was set up, and against his will, otherwise he would have had a better escape planned. While some consider the Walker shooting proof of Oswald's guilt I consider it strong evidence for his innocence, as HE HAD A PLAN. Why would he leave a notebook behind tying him to the Walker shooting and not one scrap of paper tying him to the Kennedy killing, not even a spare bullet?

[Ron Ecker]

I share Al's belief that the rifle was used because it was Oswald's rifle, and could tie him to the murder.

Pat,

But that still leaves a question. I don't think Oswald just decided one day that he wanted a rifle. Someone told him to order one. It seems to me that whoever told him that would tell him what kind to get, instead of waiting to see what he chose. So the question is, why would they tell him to get a Mannlicher Carcano?

This question of why a Mannlicher Carcano came up once before, about halfway through the thread linked below. I'm not sure it was resolved, but perhaps the best answer is that a worthless, lowdown Commie rat who couldn't hold down a job couldn't be expected to afford a better rifle.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...291entry19291

Ron

Edited May 27, 2005 by Ron Ecker

[Mark Knight]

Why the Mannlicher-Carcano, you ask?

In my mind, there's one answer: PR [public relations].

Initially, it was claimed that the rifle found at the TSBD was a 7.65 mm Mauser. Then there was another report that a British Enfield was found. BOTH were unacceptable choices, for the same reason that the alleged murder weapon wasn't a Winchester, or a Remington, or a Marlin, or any US make.

It just wouldn't be fitting and proper for an American president to have been felled by an American rifle; the fallout, from the gun-buying public, would've been catastrophic, sales would've plummeted. No, it just HAD to be a foreign-made rifle, and certain foreign-made rifles were off-limits. The Mauser and the Enfield had reputations as excellent hunting rifle conversions in the "sporterized" versions, and were prized by many Americans who owned them.

No, the rifle HAD to be of obscure manufacture, and in an oddball [unpopular] caliber, in order to minimize the economic impact on the gun manufacturers, ammunition manufacturers, and the American sport-hunting and target-shooting public.

Does it not seem odd to you--as it did to me when I read the WC report summary--that the Oswald/Hidell order form wasn't found in the files at Klein's until AFTER an FBI agent was assigned to "help" them search for it? AND that it was the FBI agent who "found" the order form?

While it's been said that, without the Walker shooting incident, there would be nothing to attach a motive to LHO in the TSBD with the MC 6.5mm, without the Hidell order form for the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 mm rifle with the cheap Jap scope, there would be nothing to tie Oswald to the rifle to begin with.

Now, let's "pretend" that the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 mm rifle was actually one of General Walker's "war trophies," rather than one actually ordered--by anyone--from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. Let's "pretend"--since Oswald's possessions yielded no extra 6.5mm rounds...spares, leftovers from the purchase of a box of ammunition, whatever--that, other than Marina's [and DeMohrenschildt's] testimony and the disputed "backyard photos," there's no evidence that Oswald ever owned a rifle, Mannlicher-Carcano or otherwise.

Does that not put a different emphasis on the importance of the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5mm rifle?

AND...

...regarding the side-mounted scope: assuming that Oswald fires the gun as a right-handed person normally does, and assuming as per the evidence that the scope had an offset mount on the left side of the rifle, would the position of the scope itself not physically interfere with the accurate use of the factory iron sights? I guess what I'm envisioning here is the potential for a recoil to cause the scope to inflict damage to the shooter's nose, forehead, or left eye while using the iron sights. Any insight on this aspect?

Edited May 27, 2005 by Mark Knight

[Ryan Crowe]

Oswald has no background with scoped rifle precision shooting and would not even be aware of elevation shooting and presets for the scope to accommodate this.

Al,

I cannot tell you how many times I have said this (until I was blue in the face)and the LNers never give a answer to this HUGE problem.

Also no extra ammo was found in Oswalds belongings, no gun cleaning supplies, and if I recall, not even a simple cleaning rod....How is Oswald maintaining his (POS) rifle without such equipement? The WC says he is seen numerous times at the range, yet he is never cleaning his rifle(no cleaning supplies) and no ammo is found. I guess he payed someone to clean his rifle and saved some extra rounds for his day in Dallas

[Ron Ecker]

Now, let's "pretend" that the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 mm rifle was actually one of General Walker's "war trophies,"

Mark,

I remember reading about Walker and/or Maxwell Taylor having one or more MC trophy rifles, but don't know where I read it. Do you know where that info is, or do you have it?

Ron

[Ron Ecker]

To answer my own question about the trophy rifle, and who may have had it, I believe that what I read before was this post by John Ritchson:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...074entry19074

Here also is a page, which John’s thread led to, that indeed seems to make a strong case for two different rifles in the framing of Oswald:

http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html

Ron

[Frank Agbat]

Mark,

I like your line of reasoning.

The selection of an "obscure" rifle also helps cement the "lone nut" mythos surrounding Oswald.

I can hear it now. Discussion over the dinner table:

"....of all the things to order... some EYE-Tallian rifle that nobody's heard of. He MUST be nuts! "

[Tim Gratz]

I think both Ron's point and Frank's point have merit and I agree with Pat's scenario.

Edited May 29, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Al Carrier]

The off-set scope would not cause impact to the shooter. The long bolt of the Carcano in conjunction with the short stock would force the shooter to pull off the cheek weld to the stock in order to cycle the weapon and then come back on and find the target again in the scope, or the iron sight allignment.

Ryan is correct that and we have discussed this numerous times both here and on Lancer, that the fact that the other 16 rounds from the twenty pack were not discovered and there was no discovery of cleaning equipment, solvents or oil, is overwhelming proof that Oswald was not the one firing the Carcano.

If I remember correctly, Kleins and Seaport were both under investigation at the time by the ATF for mail order weapon violations. With Oswald's double duties in N.O. shortly beofre the assassination, isn't it likely he would have been doing meanialy duties as an informant for the feds, both FBI and ATF? It is the only thing that makes sense here.

Slightly OT but I think relevant, I don't believe the planners were trying to deceive that more than one shooter was firing in DP, only deceiving at the time to allow the other two to escape undetected. The feds were ready to cover this up after the two earlier planned attempts in Chicago and Miami tipped them.

Al

[Mark Knight]

Thanks for clearing that up, Al. I wasn't sure whether the scope in question was for a short eye-relief distance or not, but it was always something I'd wondered about.