Headshot Theory

[Lee Forman]

Actually, for a while, they thought the shots came from my building, the Terminal Annex. So immediately we interviewed everybody on the floors on that side of the building to see what they knew or had seen because there was a possibility that it came from the post office. Of course, that was cleared up in a hurry.

John,

To me this translates as an error that was corrected?

- lee

[John Dolva]

Actually, for a while, they thought the shots came from my building, the Terminal Annex. So immediately we interviewed everybody on the floors on that side of the building to see what they knew or had seen because there was a possibility that it came from the post office. Of course, that was cleared up in a hurry.

John,

To me this translates as an error that was corrected?

- lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely, Lee. Or was it. A lot of errors were put in place that day it seems.

"they thought" ? (agencies. DPD? Witnesses?) "my building" "we interviewed" ? (not the 'agencies' ?) "...to see what they knew": us, our people in our building. So it seems the word of Harry was sufficient for the 'agencies' to accept that the shot did not come from the post office?? funny that.? Of course, they knew it came from the TSBD. Who the h..l was this Harry dude? The more I read of his testimony and role in the whole thing it seems strange that he packed such an enormous untouchability. After the WC he seemed to vanish into thin air. What did he look like? It's a puzzle worth looking at. There may be nothing, but...

[Mark Knight]

John, the Postal Inspection Service is a fairly-well UNknown investigative agency. As with the FBI, their jurisdiction crosses state lines. As with the FBI, there are regional offices out of which postal inspectors operate. Unlike the FBI, very little is mentioned about postal inspectors in the press; therefore, not much information is in the public domain on just how they operate.

My father was a postal worker, and the impression he left upon me was that one should RESPECT the authority of the FBI, but one should almost FEAR the Postal Inspectors...alas, Dad is no longer around to explain, but that is the perception he left with me.

[John Dolva]

John, the Postal Inspection Service is a fairly-well UNknown investigative agency.  As with the FBI, their jurisdiction crosses state lines.  As with the FBI, there are regional offices out of which postal inspectors operate.  Unlike the FBI, very little is mentioned about postal inspectors in the press; therefore, not much information is in the public domain on just how they operate.

My father was a postal worker, and the impression he left upon me was that one should RESPECT the authority of the FBI, but one should almost FEAR the Postal Inspectors...alas, Dad is no longer around to explain, but that is the perception he left with me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Day was appointed by Kennedy as Postmaster General in '61. Three weeks after his appointment Dulles, Helms and Roosevelt came to see him. He didn't want to know what they wanted to talk to him about. He resigned for undisclosed reasons in july '63. Apparently he had 'differences' with Kennedy.

The CIA and the FBI were involved in secret mail opening operations presumably involving the Postal Inspectors. This seemed to largely be interception of mail to and from Communist countries.

"WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 22, 1975

U.S. SENATE,

SELECT COMMITTEE TO STUDY GOVERNMENT, OPERATIONS

WITH RESPECT TO INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at l0:08 a.m., in room 318,

Russell Senate Office Building, Senator Frank Church (chairman)

presiding.

Present: Senators Church, Mondale, Huddleston, Hart of Colorado,

Goldwater, Mathias, and Schweiker.

Also present: William G. Miller, staff director; Frederick A. O.

Schwarz, Jr., chief counsel; and Curtis R. Smothers, counsel to the

minority.

The CHAIRMAN. The hearing will please come to order.

Today the committee continues its investigation of the mail-opening

program, endeavoring to determine in depth how it happened that for

20 years mail was opened by the CIA and the FBI, contrary to the

laws of the United States.

.......

For that purpose, our first witnesses are three former Postmasters

General, Mr. J. Edward Day, Mr. John ,A. Gronouski, and Mr. Winton

M. Blount.

Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Day, when did you hold the position of Postmaster

General ?

Mr. Day. January 21, 1961, until August 9, 1963.

Mr. Schwarz. Was there a time when Mr. Helms and Mr. Roosevelt

and Director Dulles came to visit with you about the subject of CIA

and mail ?

Mr. Day. They came to visit me, yes, on February 15, 1961, about

3 weeks after I took office.

Mr. Schwarz. All right. There is a document in your book which

is exhibit 8,l dated February l 1961, the day after-

Mr. DAY. I don’t have any book of that kind.

Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Blount can show it to you. It is right there. This

is a CIA document, written by Mr. Helms, reflecting the fact of the

meeting and stating in the second sentence of the paragraph, “We gave

him the background, development, and current status, withholding no

relevant details.”

To your recollection, were you told that the CIA was opening mail

in New York City ?

Mr. DAY. No.

Mr. Schwarz. Do you deny that you were told that, or is it simply

that you do not recollect it ?

Mr. Day. I don’t recollect it. And I do have several very distinct

recollections of that meeting, which are inconsistent with this memorandum

of Mr. Helms.

These three gentlemen came to see me. I knew Mr. Roosevelt from

past years. Mr. Dulles, after some preliminary visiting and so on, said

that he wanted to tell me something very secret, and I said, “Do I have

to know about it?” And he was somewhat taken aback by that. And

he said no.

I said my experience is that where there is something that is very

secret, it is likely to leak out, and anybody that knew about it is likely

to be suspected of having been part of leaking it out, so I would rather

not know anything about it.

What additional things were said in connection with him building

up to that, I don’t know. But I am sure, from my recollection of that

meeting, and, actually, from other things in your own record, that I

was not told anything about opening mall.

Mr. Schwarz. What are the other things you refer to?

Mr. Day. Well, for example, there is the memorandum, I believe

you read part of it, that was prepared by the CIA staff before they

came to see me. They really were laying for me. I barely found out

where my office was when they came over there. It said, if the Postmaster

General asks if any mail is being opened, tell him that it is

being opened. Well, obviously, I didn’t ask them if any mail was

being opened."

How much can be said about Harry's involvement in any set-up of Oswald? Were Oswalds mail to photographer with the Backyard photos observed?

Edited July 27, 2005 by John Dolva

[Lee Forman]

More info, relative to my belief that shots [throat shot and occiput] could have originated from the general area of the walled walkway / 'Pergola Garden.'

Triple Underpass - area of Railyard where Elm, Main and Commerce converge

Arcade - guessing this means the Pergola lattice structure

Grassy Knoll - seems to refer to anything between the underpass, the TSBD, and the railyards. Would include the picket fence, retaining wall and entire Pergola Structure on the North side of Elm.

TSBD - obvious

Pergola Gardens - area of the walled walkway, in-between Elm Street, and the Elm Street extension, where the TSBD is located. Walkway begins ~60 feet from the corner of Elm/Elm Street extension, and leads to Pergola Shelter #4

http://www.jfk-assassinat.com/jfk_assassination/organ.htm

It wasn't until 1984, in the TV production On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald, that Vincent Bugliosi simply asked William Newman to specify the bit about the "garden directly behind me" that was in his affidavit of November 22, 1963. Newman specified the area to the east of the pergola; between the Depository and Newman's position on November 22 is a landscaped walkway.

Using Don Roberdeau's plat to get the names of the witnesses closest to the man resembling a shooter in Croft - in order of appearance on the sidewalk, roughly northeast running southwest [towards the underpass], on the North side of Elm.

19+ Unidentified Individuals

F. Lee Mudd[/b]

He stated that immediately after the shots were fired, some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself, inasmujch [sic] as the shots alarmed him and he did not know what had happened or where the shots had come from. He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building.

AJ Millican

Just after the President's car passed, I heard three shots come from up toward Houston and Elm right by the Book Depository Building, and then immediately I heard two more shots from the Arcade between the Book Store and the Underpass, and then three more shots came from the same direction only sounded further back.

Aurelia Alonzo?

Mary Elizabeth Woodward

December 7th, 1963

She stated that her first reaction was that the shots had been fired from above her head and from possibly behind her. Her next reaction was that the shots might have come from the overpass which was to her right. She stated, however, because of the loud echo, she could not say where the shots had come from, other than they had come from above her head.

Date?

“…After acknowledging our cheers he [Kennedy] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to our right.”[4]

Anne Donaldson?

Margaret Brown?

Berry?

Thornton?

Peggy Burney?

Clay?

Templin?

Brandt?

Newman?

Westbrook?

June Dishong

June's daughter told Don Roberdeau that her Mother had said:

"She said that some shots came from behind her, on the knoll."

Calvery?

Hicks?

Reed?

John Arthur Chism

On hearing the second shot he definitely knew the first was not a firecracker and was of the opinion the shots came from behind him.

At this point Mr. CHISM advised he would be looking south and. therefore, immediately turned towrd the north but did not see anyone who appeared to be doing the shooting either in the the aforementioned concrete memorial or in the Texas School Book Depository

Marvin Faye Chism

It came from what I thought was behind us and I looked but I couldn't see anything.

Unidentified Boy.

Smith?

TUM and TA/DCM

Cheryl McKinnon

For now I'll use Ron Ecker's reference, since I can't find any archives at the San Diego Star News.

http://www.hobrad.com/acreumbr.htm

College journalism student Cheryl McKinnon (later a reporter with the San Diego Star-News) heard shots from the knoll and saw smoke as well.

Unidentified woman?

Bill Newman 11/22/63

I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me, that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb. I do not recall looking toward the Texas School Book Depository. I looked back in the vacinity [sic] of the garden.

Frances Gayle Newman - Clay Shaw trial February 15, 1969

Q: Where did the noise sound to you to come from?

A: Sounded it was coming from directly behind us.

Generally speaking, taking into account the limited percentage of eye-witness account information available, if shots sounded as they came from 'behind' for the majority of witnesses identified in this area, and assuming that they were facing the motorcade as the shots were fired, then IMO, there is a very high probability that there may have been a shooter directly behind them, in the pergola garden / walled walkway area, as can be seen in Croft.

[John Dolva]

Good to see you've broken free from the mold, Lee. It's an interesting scenario. You've actually interpreted the witness reports in a way that I can add a different perspective to in order to support the idea of a left shot. Yes, they did HEAR a shot from where you say. BUT the shot came from the left. That quarter round thingy is like a lens. It acts as a concentrating lens focusing soundwaves and where they meet the amplitude rises dramatically causing a phantom crack. Here on a bit of Don's work is a rough sketch to illustrate.

[John Dolva]

here

Edited July 29, 2005 by John Dolva

[Lee Forman]

here

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John,

Recognizing the difficulty of using the medical evidence, I do not believe there was any evidence to suggest damage to the left hemisphere? - skull and brain included -of Kennedy's head - nor was there any eye-witness that suggested that there was a point of entry, or exit, on that side.

Further, there were furrows in the grass, skull fragments, 2 separate and distinct bullet marks on curbs [one referenced by Jean Hill, as seen on Roberdeau's plat], a mark on the cement by the manhole cover, the mystery man and the possible .45 caliber round collected, etc. all on the south side - demonstrating shots from the right, or north side of Elm. I'll admit to being on the fence as relates to Connally's wound, but the location for his shooter still would not have been on the left.

If we go to Roberdeau's plat - I assume that all eyes were on the Lincoln. That would put the 'Pergola Garden' to their 'behind' - pun intended. I used the Chisms as the example, with the red line. Both Chisms said 'shots came from behind.'

The TSBD is also 'behind' them, however Newman said

'that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb'

and Millican distinguishes between the TSBD and the other locations:

'I heard three shots come from up toward Houston and Elm right by the Book Depository Building, and then immediately I heard two more shots from the Arcade between the Book Store and the Underpass, and then three more shots came from the same direction only sounded further back.'

Woodward's 'ear-shattering' to me also suggests that it was taken from very close to her location.

- lee

[John Dolva]

As you say Lee, there was no damage to the left hemisphere. I'm not suggesting there was.

Edited July 29, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

Lee, here's an image (removed to other post) that clarifies my suggestion. I took the side xray photo and 'wrapped' it on to a 3d model of kennedy's head, then twirled it into the direction corresponding to a photo of kennedy (added a skull too for effect) superimposed them and tilted the lot roughly into the orientation I think he was in if one looks at the limo roughly head on.

Edited July 29, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

Lee, don't get me wrong. I think your argument is coherent. I'm suggesting an alternative direction for the headshot that doesn't contradict the sound heard. I'm not saying there weren't other shots as well. Decoys, missed shots, and bodyshots.

on the image (rewmoved to other post) the straight brown lines are the direction of the soundwave, concentrated by the lens to a loud phantom crack.(red arrow.)

This is behind the witnesses, directly behind.

Also the point of focus here is directly inline with suggested path. It is also the first time that the path is clear of people on both sides of the street.

Edited July 29, 2005 by John Dolva

[Lee Forman]

Hey John.

We can agree to disagree. There are still many unknowns. I would agree with you that there were more than one strike to Kennedy's head. Still can't see any shooter being on the South side of Elm, however.

Here's Don's Plat again - tweaked. I have followed back the trajectories, based upon what evidence there was available.

I followed the trajectory taken by the Brehm fragment and Harper Fragment back.

Same for the Hartman furrows in the grass, the curb shot at Main, and the cement shot [.45] by the manhole cover.

Where required, I tried to intersect with Kennedy's location, as Don has him fixed to correspond with z313.

I also tried to take into account the witness accounts of the smoke near the picketfence, the man that appears to have been a 'Railroad Detective' in the Moorman [enlarged crop enhancement], the 'Army man' in the Croft #3 photo behind the wall at the 'Pergola Gardens,' and accounts of there having been a shooter in both the east and west windows of the TSBD, as well as the man that can be seen close to the fire escape, on the 2nd floor of the DalTex, in Altgens.

I didn't attempt to add the throat shot, back shot or Connally shot. Probably should have left the Tague shot off as well to avoid confusion. I added a view from the curb back to the DalTex window - doesn't belong in the headshot thread, but still, I don't see where a shooter would have been located on the South side, and what evidence there would have been [a round, skull fragments, witnesses, a mark on the curb, etc.].

- lee

[John Dolva]

Hi Lee, yep I agree re disagreeing/agreeing. I'm not interested in being right, I'm interested in seeing someone right. You, me, Joe Doe , all the same to me.

Breaking the mold and exploring things helps to get points cleared I think. The wound ballistics re my suggestion could be : the bullet enters the skull on a tangent. At the point of entry it will tend to according to exterior ballistic theory, assuming a right twist bore, be swinging in from the left and dropping down, meanwhile airlift will tend to have the nose pointing up slightly with regards to its actual path. As it enters the skull, it will deviate inward, or down. To the left of the bullet is a wall of skull. To the right the brain. The top of the skull is shattered, so the wall of skull to the bullets left will act as a dam to deflect the peak pulse of the cavitation and direct brainmatter and skull parts back in the direction of the entry. This wall has however been seriously compromised and the further passage of the now fragmented bullet will along with the directed force blow out the right of kennedys skull. Fragments can exit here and end up where found later, under seat etc. . There are smears on the xray photos plus fragmentation pattern radiating out from this area (no, I'm not a radiologist), there was an initial report re. throathole being from fragment from headshot exit.

Bullet paths within the body were not followed. Exhumation may show bullet parts in lower trunk.

As to where bullet came from? How about this?

EDIT:: as for Witnesses?? :: Harry D. Holmes, FBI informat T7, said : "Actually, for a while, they thought the shots came from my building, the Terminal Annex. So immediately we interviewed everybody on the floors on that side of the building to see what they knew or had seen because there was a possibility that it came from the post office. Of course, that was cleared up in a hurry."

"they thought" ? (agencies. DPD? Witnesses?) "my building" "we interviewed" ? (not the 'agencies' ?) "...to see what they knew": us, our people in our building. So it seems the word of Harry was sufficient for the 'agencies' to accept that the shot did not come from the post office?? funny that.? Of course, they knew it came from the TSBD. Who the h..l was this Harry dude? The more I read of his testimony and role in the whole thing it seems strange that he packed such an enormous untouchability.

He brought Lee's Post Box to attention of DPD, he took part in Oswalds interviews, he delayed the transfer so that Oswald was still there when Ruby turned up, he took part in uncovering the trail to the Carcano.

As postal inspector he would have been part of the CIA,FBI,Postal Inspection Service, illegal Top Secret mail opening operations. Had he seen the Back yard photos? Oswald would have been known to him and through him, as T7, the FBI. He lied at WC about postal regulations, and also said he couldn't remember the names of people he associated with yet described himself (apart from calling himself a trained 'suspicioner' ( a play on the french word spy?)) as someone with a perfect memory? After the WC he seemed to vanish into thin air.

What did he look like? It's a puzzle worth looking at.

Edited July 27, 2005 by John Dolva

[Lee Forman]

Hey John.

Baffled.

Any additional info on the photo? Is this a re-enactment photo? I looked through numerous aerials, etc. If that is Elm we see in the background, and Main, where is Commerce? If the curved object below is the South Pergola, where would you get that kind of elevation? Is this supposed to be from the top of the underpass? It doesn't look that way - here's a shot I took from above Commerce on the underpass. It can't be from the Postal Annex? I tried to get a rough idea on the trajectory - doesn't appear to be anything present in this aerial view that would provide that sort of elevation.

- lee

[Christopher T. George]

Hi John and Lee

I have to agree with Lee's assessment that it would seem to be hard to find anywhere to find the elevation to take a shot from the south side. Besides, Jackie would have been in the way of making a shot from that direction. It seems to me the witnesses were saying the shots appeared to come from the vicinity of the North Pergola, and that includes not only people who heard shots coming from the behind them but those who felt bullets whizzing by them.

All my best

Chris