MKULTRA and the assassination

[Robert Howard]

Robert - with respect, I don't think Alexandra Robbins is the last word on Skull & Bones and other WASP or masonic secret societies.

Her Skull & Bones book was published when she was only just out of Yale. Robbins was a member of the secret society Scroll and Key, which she regarded as an Animal House fraternity party-type institution, and imo she displayed both flippancy and naivete towards the subject of Skull & Bones, as her own words reveal:

AMY GOODMAN: Alexandra Robbins, you, too, are a member of a secret society at Yale. Can you explain what that is?

ALEXANDRA ROBBINS: Sure. I was a member [of Scroll and Key]. Ever since “Secrets of the Tomb” came out, I cannot get members of my own society to talk to me. I believe that means I’m out. Which is okay, because you only joined it for the free alcohol in the first place. The society is called. Scroll and Key, the second oldest society at Yale. It was helpful for me to tell the Bonesmen whom I interviewed, I interviewed more than 100, that I was a member of Scroll and Key. They assumed that it has a similarly prestigious roster, although no presidents, that I would be able to put their information in context and align with them in their views towards secret societies, which of course, I didn't. I don't believe these kinds of secret societies have a place in this country or world unless they have value to the community. And Skull and Bones stands out as, I believe, the one Yale secret society that doesn't do anything for the community or for any other entity other than itself.

I note her recent works show no interest in investigative journalism. Perhaps because of what happened to her after publication of her Skull & Bones book, again in Robbins' own words:

JUAN GONZALEZ: One of the articles you wrote elicited a direct response and maybe a threat?

ALEXANDRA ROBBINS: When I wrote the first article for "Atlantic Monthly," I dismissed Bones as a harmless organization, because my secret society didn't have the power agenda, so I didn't think that Bones did either. After the article came out, I got a call at my office from the New Yorker from a journalist whom I knew by name to be a member of Skull and Bones. He scolded me for writing the article. He said, I’m quoting, “Writing that article was not an ethical or honorable way to make a decent living in journalism.” He asked me how much I had been paid for the story. I refused to tell him and he hung up on me. 15 minutes later, he called back. He says, "I have just gotten off the phone with our people." I laughed. I knew he meant other Bonesmen because I didn't think somebody would actually say our people. He told me that the society demanded to know where I got my information. I wouldn't tell him, of course, and then he spent the next 15 minutes or so, berating me for writing about Skull and Bones for having the gall to expose thing about his secret society. He ended the conversation by saying, “There are a lot of us at newspapers and political journalism institutions across the country. Good luck with your career.” He slammed down the phone. I was 23 then. I was an aspiring investigative reporter, so that did shake me a little bit, but what really appalled me was that I found out since that in the years since that call, this guy has been actively going out and trying to destroy my career as a journalist, simply because I wrote about Skull and Bones.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0122-10.htm

I agree with you, I didn't state that one should buy her book and nothing else. Perhaps, I should have made that more clearer. But it is a very important book IMO, because it gives one an idea of how America's Masonic history, is as much a part of history as say, George Washington's apron string's, if you will pardon the expression. Or was it Martha's?

On a more serious note, according to an Eleanor Atchinson, there was a cache of weapons found in an old Masonic building very close to the White House in 1960, long before the JFK Assassination.

Record: ATCHISON, ELEANOR (MRS.)

Sources: CD 1531; JFK Collection List, pg. 72 (AMKW 110)

Mary's

Comments: Called FBI to report that her brother, J. B. Coumes, found two rooms in Washington, D.C., filled with guns. One room was in the Masonic Temple, the other room was in some unknown building in D.C. Her brother was married to Anne Coumes, whose father was in U.S. Embassy in Iran. Thinks Anne Coumes and Marina Oswald look alike.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

There is a Dallas Morning News Article from April 28, 1963 which mentions a few interesting names;

See

Scottish Rite to Confer 400 Degrees

I am sure there were Masonic elements in the JFK Assassination, I just don't believe that the assassination of JFK was quote "a Masonic plot," unquote, but I recall that Hoover and some other big names were mason's.

Actually, if you read a lot of material about Rafael Trujillo, in the Dominican Republic, there are allegations that he was involved in Satanism, although it just pop's up here and there, and is not an established fact as far as I know.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Robert Howard

[Guest David Guyatt]

The key books on Skulls Bones are, imo, firstly, the four ultra slim - but ultra important - volumes by Prof. Antony Sutton, "America's Secret Establishment: An Introduction to the Order of Skull & Bones", "How the Order Creates War & Revolution", "How the Order Controls Education" and the name of the 4th volume both escapes me and I can't find it using a quick Google search.

Of all the books Tony published he was most proud of these.

Then there is Kris Millegan's book written with a number of contributors including Tony Sutton -- "Fleshing Out Skull & Bones - An Investigation into America's Most Powerful Secret Society"

Kris was a close friend of Tony and has taken on the flame.

[Robert Howard]

Significantly (for me anyway) there has been an argument advanced that the controversial Protocols of the Elders of Sion [sic - Zion] were not, in fact, an anti-zionist [sic -- anti-Jewish, antisemitic] tract but rather a Martinist document. It has further been argued that the real movers and shakers behind the Synarchist movement are financiers and other men of quiet influence dedicated to effecting discrete change in different nations around the world towards a Synarchist agenda.

Wonder who advanced those arguments?

Guy Patton, author of Web of Gold:

http://www.perillos.com/sauniere_occult.pdf

Thank you for the source, David. An excursion through some late 19th-early 20th century esoteric history, from a speech/lecture delivered by Guy Patton. The relevant part:

Papus [Gérard Encausse] and his involvement in esoteric movements became widely known amongst those with an interest in occultism. In 1905, Papus was summoned to the court of Tsar Nic[h]olas II to hold a “Spiritual Seance” at which the spirit of his son Alexander III was raised. The Russian Court had been witness to many seances arising from the interest of [Nicholas' father] Tsar Alexander II and his wife in occultism.... It is during this episode that we become aware of the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Allegedly the minutes of the World Zionist meeting that took place at Basle [basel, Switzerland] in 1897, they caused quite a stir at the Russian Court where they were used to cast a slur on certain political factions.

Contrary to popular belief, they are not a forgery, nor a fiction; but neither are they of Zionist origin. In fact they formed the basis of a Martinist plan for Synarchic government. Papus himself wrote of such a plan as a necessary counter to what he saw as creeping anarchy. Aware of their political potential, they were used by a faction of dissident Russian exiles to discredit Russian noblemen involved in Freemasonry who were believed to be involved in a conspiracy to influence the Tsar.

This Martinist document was then seen by Sergei Nilus; who confused the Martinist symbol - a six-pointed star - with the Zionist Star of David. He immediately interpreted the document as being a Zionist plan and part of a Zionist conspiracy. The Martinists were duly attacked as belonging to this illusory Judeo-masonic plot. Anti-Semitic tendencies of the time greatly helped to fuel this confusion and added to its propaganda value that continues even until today.

Patton has a list of sources used at the end of the speech/lecture, but little or no direct citation (viz., for the statement, "Contrary to popular belief, they are not a forgery, nor a fiction; but neither are they of Zionist origin."). He suggests the antisemitic aspects are the result of a merry mix-up, which is not the impression one gets elsewhere:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols..._Elders_of_Zion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papus

"In October 1901 Encausse collaborated with Jean Carrère in producing a series of articles in the Echo de Paris under the pseudonym Niet ('no' in Russian). In the articles Sergei Witte and Pyotr Rachkovsky were attacked, and it was suggested that there was a sinister financial syndicate trying to disrupt the Franco-Russian alliance. Encausse and Carrère alleged that this syndicate was a Jewish conspiracy, and the antisemitic nature of these articles, compounded by Encausse's known connection to the Tsar of Russia, may have contributed to the false allegation that Papus was the author who [later] forged The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious anti-Semitic hoax alleging that a worldwide Jewish conspiracy controls the media and financial institutions."

We're getting pretty far afield of the thread's original topic. As Robert Howard suggests, there are a number of religious & pseudo-religious angles with Sirhan and Robert Kennedy's murder, but in that context I would make a counterpoint to Bill Kelly's brief post above. The word assassin comes from (Arabic) hashishin, "men of hashish," the name given to Hassan ibn Sabah's fanatical followers in eleventh century Iran. The issue is whether those followers were "mind-controlled" by Sabah, or used hash to fortify themselves for murders they willingly undertook, for "the good of the cause." (A related example would be the Zulu warriors and their use of drugs in battle against British forces.) In Sirhan's case, a progammed assassin/decoy-shooter scenario seems plausible but I think depends to a large extent whether or not you take Sirhan at his word.

I also think we have Richard Helms to thank for this. In hiding and destroying all he could about MK/ULTRA, I assume this was done to avoid the political, and particularly the legal, ramifications of all the gross abuses that were undertaken. But thanks to that, he left it open for conjecture and speculation to run rampant about large-scale operational programs in which damnear everything that happened/happens is explained in terms of "programming." As Ron Ecker suggested some time ago in this thread, if Jack Ruby's behavior beginning in the evening of 22 November 1963 can be characterized as involving a good deal of frenetic activity, anxiety, insomnia and stalking, culminating in an open assault and subsequent feelings of relief upon hearing of Oswald's demise, it's not really necessary to add mind-control-programming to the mix to account for that behavior. But then I don't think much of the idea that people who step out of crowds and fire pistols are also innocent patsies (somehow), or even that they're likely to tell the truth about things.

P.S. for Robert Howard, on certain Baptist attitudes re JFK:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-162618834.html

Thank You Daniel, that was very thoughtful and the URL pretty much hits the nail on the head, re that aspect of the religious gulf between the Southern Baptist's and the Catholic Church.

If one find's Guy Patton's material interesting, you would probably find Madame Blavatsky's Baboon - Peter Washington, thought provoking... It is a real meal for the senses.

http://www.amazon.com/Madame-Blavatskys-Ba...m/dp/0805210245

Reading about Synarchist's reminds me of Jacques Maritain for some weird reason, although he was far from a Synarchist.

See

http://www.seop.leeds.ac.uk/entries/maritain/

I'm very familiar with Anthony Sutton and I recommend anything by him, the irony of all this is that at the inception, or at least close to the beginnings of MK/ULTRA there was a case referred to as the Kelly Case, the document is at maryferrell.org.

104-10096-10218

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

I am not clear as to why it was referred to as such, for the persons real name according to this document, was Dimitri Dimitrov, he was given the treatment, as they say, because the Agency ostensibly feared he was about to go to work for the French, the SDECE, I suppose.

The reason I used the word ironic earlier, is that there are indications that General Donald Donaldson, who is listed as a mystery death in the JFK assassination, albeit years later [circa 1976-77] could very well be the very same person who in the late 1950's was, in fact, Dimitri Dimitrov. General Donald Donaldson is, if I am not mistaken the same person

Willem Oltmans was touting as the person who knew who had ordered President Kennedy's Assassination, I am looking through the newer de-classified documents to learn more. Oltman's claimed at one point many thing's, and tried to meet with Pres. Carter, who refused to meet with him, although he did meet with some of Carter's staff people. Oltman's graduated from Yale, and by 1963 was working at least in title, at the United Nations, as a writer for an "obscure Dutch newspaper." Perceptions at the Agency, on paper, are that he was something of a charlatan, for once I think they may have been correct.

Frankly, I find Oltman's to be something of a creep and a chronic xxxx, and I believe he had more to do with George DeMohrenschildt's demise, than anyone else, save Dr. Mendoza. It is alleged that the "titular" Gen. Donaldson was discovered missing from his London hotel suite, and then his body was found later, riddled with bullet holes. It would be the ultimate irony if a MKULTRA casualty [in the sense of mental affects] became a real life casualty for trying to tell the truth about the JFK Assassination.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Robert Howard

[Greg Parker]

Interesting Robert.

I'v just Googled the book title "Cyclomany - "The Secret of Psychic Power Control" which was by author Frank Rudolph Young who says this about himself:

Quote

FRANK RUDOLPH YOUNG, "the man of wonder," an internationally esteemed scientist of the mind-body, has been hailed as being as far ahead of his time as the science-fiction fantasies which come astonishingly true. Totally independent in his secret discoveries, he is in a class by himself. His whole life has been one of relentless research into the human mind-body and the miracle powers of its physiology when unleashed consciously.

He grew up in intimate relationship with his godfather, a potential potentate who used Secret Mental Powers to become President of his country. With the secrets of the Zohar, aided with the well-guarded discoveries in his mind-body laboratory, Frank Young found the mystery behind the right physiological language, the scientific trigger of Secret Mental Powers.

Frank Rudolph Young's granduncle was a long-lived Yogi in far-away India. For 40 years, Mr. Young's father investigated the secrets of psychic power in the West Indies and in Central and South America. Dr. Young himself spent 30 years investigating the scientific laws behind yoga and mind science. He has taught these findings to thousands of followers throughout the world.

Unquote

Other self help books the Man of Wonder wrote included such unmissable gems as "The Laws of Mental Domination..."

Perhaps his long-lived granduncle was, in reality, Adolf Hitler.

I've been looking for any Arthur Young connections --- this guy comes across as an Arthur Parody...

I give you this review of "Cyclomancy" without comment

http://oddbooks.co.uk/oddbooks/young.html

According to wiki, Cyclomancy is associated with Wicca and is a method of divination. This would seem another commonality with between Sierra and Sirhan.

Right -- I'm off to sharpen my Brain Horns...

[Guest David Guyatt]

Significantly (for me anyway) there has been an argument advanced that the controversial Protocols of the Elders of Sion [sic - Zion] were not, in fact, an anti-zionist [sic -- anti-Jewish, antisemitic] tract but rather a Martinist document. It has further been argued that the real movers and shakers behind the Synarchist movement are financiers and other men of quiet influence dedicated to effecting discrete change in different nations around the world towards a Synarchist agenda.

Wonder who advanced those arguments?

Guy Patton, author of Web of Gold:

http://www.perillos.com/sauniere_occult.pdf

Thank you for the source, David. An excursion through some late 19th-early 20th century esoteric history, from a speech/lecture delivered by Guy Patton. The relevant part:

Papus [Gérard Encausse] and his involvement in esoteric movements became widely known amongst those with an interest in occultism. In 1905, Papus was summoned to the court of Tsar Nic[h]olas II to hold a “Spiritual Seance” at which the spirit of his son Alexander III was raised. The Russian Court had been witness to many seances arising from the interest of [Nicholas' father] Tsar Alexander II and his wife in occultism.... It is during this episode that we become aware of the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Allegedly the minutes of the World Zionist meeting that took place at Basle [basel, Switzerland] in 1897, they caused quite a stir at the Russian Court where they were used to cast a slur on certain political factions.

Contrary to popular belief, they are not a forgery, nor a fiction; but neither are they of Zionist origin. In fact they formed the basis of a Martinist plan for Synarchic government. Papus himself wrote of such a plan as a necessary counter to what he saw as creeping anarchy. Aware of their political potential, they were used by a faction of dissident Russian exiles to discredit Russian noblemen involved in Freemasonry who were believed to be involved in a conspiracy to influence the Tsar.

This Martinist document was then seen by Sergei Nilus; who confused the Martinist symbol - a six-pointed star - with the Zionist Star of David. He immediately interpreted the document as being a Zionist plan and part of a Zionist conspiracy. The Martinists were duly attacked as belonging to this illusory Judeo-masonic plot. Anti-Semitic tendencies of the time greatly helped to fuel this confusion and added to its propaganda value that continues even until today.

Patton has a list of sources used at the end of the speech/lecture, but little or no direct citation (viz., for the statement, "Contrary to popular belief, they are not a forgery, nor a fiction; but neither are they of Zionist origin."). He suggests the antisemitic aspects are the result of a merry mix-up, which is not the impression one gets elsewhere:

It is true Daniel, that Guy didn't provide a source for this. He is a careful researcher who has been researching this subject for well over ten years now and, imo, would not make an absolute statement of this nature (sans the usual caveats) without being sure of his information (he may not have been in a position to share his sources with his readers?). In view of the highly sensitive nature of the subject and the history that has grown up around it since WWII, I am sure he would have taken special care to get whatever corroboration he felt was required, before putting pen to paper.

At the end of the day one must judge it on its own merits. I read the protocols wel over a decade ago, and at that time, concluded they were not the anti-zionist tracts they had been made out to be by the nazis and others since. There were too many elements in the document that did not conform to that interpretation, imo. The Martinist/Synarcist interpretation makes perfect sense to me. Especially when one is aware that Tsar Nicholas II and his Court are said to have been the member of a Martinist lodge - the "Cross and Star", and that he (Tsar Nicholas) was initiated into the Order by Papus (Gerard Encausee). See, for example, Bernice Glatzer Rosenthal's book, The Occult in Russian and Soviet Culture, which also references this.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Kumg5iY...G0ggY&hl=en

See also:

http://omeganexusonline.net/rcmo/marhis4.htm

And:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinism

There is also an interesting forum post on this subject from 2005 that might be worth scrutinizing:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4796

[Robert Howard]

If one searches through newsgroups on the internet, alt.mindcontrol, there is a 3 part article entitled

Ratting Out Puharich by Terry Milner. It is your classic under the radar account of bizarre 20th century activities.........And perhaps contains some gems.....

Edited April 27, 2008 by Robert Howard

[Gary Buell]

It seems to continually rear it's ugly head, so I thought maybe I'd simply post it and see if I can't get it sorted.

Intro

It seems a natural progression to assume that if Operation Paperclip truly existed, scientists who had been performing various experiments on human beings in the concentration camps of Europe had been given a new program along with their immunity.

  When it was at its height in drug experiments, operation MK-ULTRA was formed. This was the brainchild of Richard Helms who later came to be a CIA director. It was designed to defeat the "enemy" in its brain- washing techniques. MK-ULTRA had another arm involved in Chemical and Biological Warfare (CBW) known as MK-DELTA. The "doctors" who participated in these experiments used some of the same techniques as the Nazi "doctors". Those doctors who were not indicted in the Nuremberg trials were imported from Germany under the program called "Operation Paperclip." The Nazi doctors were a valuable source of information to the CIA since many of the U.S. techniques mimicked what had already been done by the Nazis. German doctors were prosecuted at the Nuremberg trials for similar criminal acts that the U.S. experimenters carried out - and this was all done at the same time period as the American experiments were taking place. The real motto here should be: Let's pursue relentlessly the wicked Nazi doctors, Russian spies, and lone assassins and forget about our "special operations".

    Just as Nazi Germany had its "expendables" the CIA had theirs. Among the expendables the CIA had were, war prisoners, prostitutes, sexual psychopaths, prison inmates, certain war objectors, mentally retarded people, the elderly, terminally ill patients, schizophrenics, drug addicts, foreigners and, of course, any other man, woman or child who would fit the bill of need.

http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/arc_features/...nt/cia6-97.html

Some supporting material

- Allegedly, there was a wing present in the East Louisiana State Hospital that Rose Cheramie was taken to, and where someone resembling Lee Oswald was apparently seeking work as an electrician. I'd have to dig for that reference, but I know I have seen it.

- There was a letter written by Dick Sprague to RB Cutler in which he spells out his theory that George DehMohrenschildt was a victim of such methods, which caused him to change his story of 11 years concerning Lee Oswald's innocence. It's long, and if I have to transcribe it, I will. I doubt if many have seen it.

- There is the book by Dick Russell concerning Richard Case Nagell, in which RCN essentially states his own view of the assassination as having involved 'Hairy de Fairy' and his hypnotism skills, and Lee Oswald as having been conditioned. Now, RCN was in prison at the time, and was only offering conjecture based upon his own infiltration of certain groups, and what he had learned; however, Raymond Broshears appears to corroborate part of this story concerning Ferrie and Hypnotism. My 'Man who knew too much" is on loan, however Richard's correspondence can be seen in Jim DiEugenio's Probe.

Discovers Patsy undergoing hypnotherapy by ex-ferry pilot named Hairy De Fairy.

http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr1195-nagltr.html

- Perry Russo further substantiates the fact that David Ferrie used hypnotism - for his own personal ends with the CAP.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/russokemp.htm

Mae Brussell on Jack Ruby.

    When Jack Ruby was arrested in Dallas, Texas, following the murder Lee Harvey Oswald, a document was found on the seat of his car. It was a pitch on "heroism," written by Warren Carroll of the C.I.A., for H.L. Hunt's Dallas radio program, "Lifeline."

    Around the time that Kennedy died in Dallas, Jack Ruby had been in the company of two known hypnotists. One of them was CIA agent David Ferrie, from New Orleans. The other was Billie Del Mar, who was then entertaining in Jack Ruby's Carousel Club. Del Mar fled from Dallas the day of the Kennedy assassination, and was never called to testify before the Warren Commission. With the help of Carroll's script on heroism, Ruby could believe that by killing Oswald, he was performing a heroic act. His explanation was, "I wanted to show them that a Jew had guts." It seems Ruby was performing for genuine anti-semites. He obviously wanted their approval.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...Kidnapping.html

There is also the Belli interview in Coronet that I quoted elsewhere, in which Belli is amused that Ruby will invariably and inevitably shed spontaneous tears at any moment that name Jack Kennedy is brought even into the most mundane of conversations.

Manchurian Candidates/Child assassins?

There is the story of 'Sexy Sadie,' a woman named Cheryl Hersha, who alleges that she was the victim of being forced into a CIA related assassin program at the age of 8 years old.

http://earthops.org/mkultra-thread.html

There is the story of Johnny Werd, found in Popkin's 'The Second Oswald.' I haven't read that yet, but I plan to do so.

When you do you will discover that the Johnny Werd nonsense is not in it. This has been covered on this forum before: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofivers....php/t4095.html

http://www.spinelessbooks.com/bookviews/Popkin_RTSO.html

Is it possible that there is substance to the account told by T. Casey Brennan? The work he published as 'fiction' below.

http://tcasey.inri.net/

[Greg Parker]

Young (and his then wife Ruth Forbes Paine) were founding members of one of the strangest occult-intelligence excrudescences of the early post-WW2 years: military intelligence/CIA bizarro Andrija Puharich's "The Nine". As Levenda demonstrates, "The Nine" had incredible old money & intelligence connections, and Puharich was researching ESP, LSD, radio-transmitting schizophrenic teeth & Heaven knows what else at Edgewood Arsenal in the early 50s - a key time and location for MK/ULTRA.

Jan,

sorry to have neglected this thread.

Six years ago, I completed a manuscript on the assassination which I was going to self-publish - but didn't for various reasons.

In that work, I touched on Puharich/Young connections. At the time, I had a particular interest in his tooth radio, wondering if maybe, this might have had something to do with Marina's dental implants arranged by the White Russians. Struck me as perhaps a bit odd that a young, attractive Russian woman who obviously liked to date, would let her teeth become as bad as DeM claimed they were - particularly since the Soviets had free dental, and she worked at a pharmacy in a hospital with a dental clinic.

But that's by-the-by. I thought I might throw this in from the manuscript since we're talking possible ominous connections:

Another in this milieu was Eldon Byrd. Byrd entered the scene somewhere in the late 1960's through Puharich's involvement with Uri Geller. At the time, Byrd worked for the Naval Surface Weapons Center in Silver Springs, and had an avid interest in unexplained phenomena. He administered tests on Geller's ability by getting him to manipulate filament of an alloy especially designed for use in satellite antennae. Between 1980 and 1983, Byrd ran the Marine Corps Nonlethal Electromagnetic Weapons Project. According to Douglas Pasternak in his article, Wonder Weapons published in the July 7, 1977 edition of the US News and World Report, Byrd claimed that they had caused behavioral changes in animals with low frequency electromagnetic radiation. If true, it seems to be a continuation of the research done by Jose Delgado for MKULTRA. Eldon Byrd was the grandson of Admiral Richard Byrd whose cousin was David Harold Byrd, owner of the Texas School Book Depository at the time of the assassination and a founding member of the Civil Air Patrol. No doubt he had been named after the Virginia farm which was home to a number of generations of this noteworthy family.

Col. L Robert Castorr is another intriguing character - a friend of Gen Walker, he had been inciting the local Cuban exiles in the lead up to the JFK visit.

In 2002, he wrote the forward to The Stargate Chronicles: Memoirs of a Psychic Spy and I have tried unsuccessfully to find out what his involvement in the program may have been. Have you come across anything on him in your research, at all?

Edited April 30, 2008 by Greg Parker

[Jack White]

Jim Marrs is the leading researcher on remote viewing.

He did two years of research, was allowed to interview the remote

viewers, wrote a book PSI SPIES...which was already typeset by

the publisher when it was suddenly suppressed by the CIA.

Jack

[Guest David Guyatt]

Greg - yes, there are very interesting characters involved in this spider's web.

The Byrd family connection to the TSBD is intriguing. Admiral Richard Evelyn Byrd is of the course the man who led the mysterious 1946 taskforce to the Antarctic, which is at the centre of persistent if fantastic rumours of a Nazi underground base under a warmwater inland lake.

The Marina Oswald White Russian dental implants suggestion is also intriguing.

Two observations:

i) the inspiration for Puharich's radio-transmitting teeth is allegedly the case of two mental patients (possibly schizophrenics) who not only claimed to be hearing voices but, Puharich discovered, actually WERE hearing voices. Traces of metal in their teeth were acting as radio transmitters, and Puharich then attempted to patent and perfect the technique;

ii) "Were We Controlled?", published in 1967, claimed:

There are two particularly dreadful procedures which have been developed. Those working and playing with them secretly call them R.H.I.C. and E.D.O.M. Radio-Hypnotic Intracerebral Control and Electronic Dissolution of Memory.

These concepts have long intrigued me. Electronic Dissolution Of Memory has always suggested Ewen Cameron's electroshock & psychic driving techniques - especially their extreme application which was presumably still classified in 1967.

But Radio-Hypnotic Intracerebral Control is more puzzling. Narco-hypnosis & sensory deprivation seem to be more central to what we know of the Bluebird/MK-ULTRA Manchurian Candidate creation programmes. However, if we add radio-transmitting teeth into the mix??????

As for ELF, classified ARPA (Advanced Research Projects Agency of the Defence Dept) research seems to have been conducted at the Langley-Porter Neuropsychiatric Institute in Hawaii. A hospital which keeps on cropping up in my research. Do any of the luminaries on this forum know of JFK assassination links to this hospital?

I don't know much about Castorr. But according to Coppens in this huge pdf file (I don't know what the general view is on Coppens amongst JFK researchers), Castorr had personal & private dealings with Jack Ruby.

http://www.philipcoppens.com/tina_a4.pdf

The covert Remote Viewing and other parapsychological research programmes were huge and complex, but I'll certainly keep my eyes wide open for Castorr. It is definitely revealing that he wrote the foreword to McMoneagle's RV book.

Greg - I notice in your file on Castorr (which google found for me), that he was:

"an officer with the Order of St. John of Jerusalem, the Knights of Malta, and was a member of the Order of St.Stanislas".

Maybe Castorr was another of those pesky wandering bishops.... Maybe David Guyatt can throw some more light on these connections...

Jan & Greg, I know Philip Coppens, albeit briefly via email correspondence. I would need to go off board with background. Coppens is very close to the Priory of Sion story. He was the principal researcher, I understand, of Lynn Picknett's and Clive Prince's most interesting book "The Stargate Conspiracy". He is also one of the founding members of the Societe Perillos along with Andre Douzet. The latter, I am told is occulty?... if you know what I mean. Anyway, lots to ponder here, including his articles on the UFO subject ( http://www.philipcoppens.com/ufogate.html ).

I am fascinated regarding the connection between Dr. Eldon Byrd - who I checked out years ago when I was researching my mind control paper - and Admiral Byrd of Operation Highjump. It never occurred to me they were even related, yet alone father and son. Doh! The nazi aspect of the conspiracy theory that continues to surround Highjump remains of interest to me. That the naval task force were - allegedly - tasked to capture Nazi Vril "flying discs" as well as the supposed Thule mercury-powered spaceship prototypes speaks volumes, especially if one is of the disinformation school as I am. When we consider that "mind control" experiments were conducted in places like Auschwitz, and apparently gave rise to post WWII developments in this field by the US, the connections between the two apparently unrelated subjects become rather obvious, imo.

I am unable to add anything on Castorr, but I am intrigued by his apparent membership of the chivalric orders mentioned by Jan. Interestingly, the Order of St. Stanislas is headquartered in Colchester, Essex. It is a "self-styled" Order (fake) and these are usually the preserve of all sorts of financial jiggery-pokery (and it is not unusual for fake orders to be used by the intelligence communities and/or outright conmen as a laundry and worse). The expert on these orders is the somewhat pompous, but very knowledgeable Guy Stair Sainty: http://www.chivalricorders.org/orders/self...ed/slfstlod.htm. I very much suspect that his membership of either KstJ or SMOM is inflated. One is a protestant British spooks and financial elites Order and the other a Vatican spooky aristo Order. I suspect his membership to these indicates that they are not the real mccoy but are rather fakes, and thus used for spooky business.

In conclusion this all smacks of the usual mind-control/ufo/occult/sra/murder & mayhem nexus I keep prattling on about.

[Greg Parker]

I am fascinated regarding the connection between Dr. Eldon Byrd - who I checked out years ago when I was researching my mind control paper - and Admiral Byrd of Operation Highjump. It never occurred to me they were even related, yet alone father and son. Doh!

David, actually I said Grandson - but sorry to say I may have got that wrong. Been pointed out to me privately that wiki does not list Eldon as a grandson under their Adm Byrd entry. Unfortunately, I've been unable to locate my source for it - though I believe it may have been a genealogy forum or a subscription info service (ancestry.com). Those sources however, are also not free of occasional error -especially when a person is providing info to those places based on family legend rather than on documented fact.

[Guest David Guyatt]

I am fascinated regarding the connection between Dr. Eldon Byrd - who I checked out years ago when I was researching my mind control paper - and Admiral Byrd of Operation Highjump. It never occurred to me they were even related, yet alone father and son. Doh!

David, actually I said Grandson - but sorry to say I may have got that wrong. Been pointed out to me privately that wiki does not list Eldon as a grandson under their Adm Byrd entry. Unfortunately, I've been unable to locate my source for it - though I believe it may have been a genealogy forum or a subscription info service (ancestry.com). Those sources however, are also not free of occasional error -especially when a person is providing info to those places based on family legend rather than on documented fact.

Thanks Greg. I'll also promise to try to sort out in my slothful, recalcitrant mind the difference between the dad and granddad. I'm both and it's confusing me no end.

[Robert Howard]

Not to interrupt the thought, but if there is anyone that would like a very detailed look on video at the history of Mind-Control, the following URL can allow you to see the episode of the History Channel, which covered this topic in a very detailed manner, entitled Mind Control: America's Secret War, narrated by Arthur Kent.

Go to

http://best.online.docus.googlepages.com/

This is really simple. Basically, it is a video library.....You scroll to the section mystery, which takes you to a additional menu

one of the selections is entitled Conspiracy theories; It is Divided in A-L and M-Z. Go to M-Z and the link is entitled

Mind Control: America's Secret War. It is a little over 45 minutes long. I believe it is a very detailed look at the history of Mind Control in America and IMO it delivers......

[Robert Howard]

the link is entitled

Mind Control: America's Secret War. It is a little over 45 minutes long. I believe it is a very detailed look at the history of Mind Control in America and IMO it delivers......

Robert - thanks for that link. A very useful library of History Channel documentaries (although it stuffs filmmakers like me because it means we can't generate income from documentaries we've made in the past).

I watched the mind control documentary. It's entirely sound so far as it goes, and interviews the most credible mainstream figures - Ross, Scheflin, Marks, Turner. However, I think it's inevitably limited (indeed castrated) by the fact that it sticks to a highly conservative interpretation of known documentation & evidence.

For instance, it trots out the ridiculous story that CBW scientist Frank Olson committed suicide because of a bad LSD trip, whilst in reality Gordon Thomas has told us that Olson was considering blowing the whistle on grossly unethical & probably lethal human experiments, possibly British as well as American. The most likely scenario is that Olson was murdered.

And the History Channel intro to Ewen Cameron is along the lines of:

"In the mid 1950s, the CIA learns of... a kitchen sink approach to mind control that's already going on in McGill Memorial Hospital in Canada: Cameron's 'depatterning'."

The CIA learns of these experiments in the mid-1950s?

C'mon, pull the other one. That may be what the tiny fragments of the surviving paper trial (ie the couple of boxes of invoices Gottlieb & Helms forgot to destroy) suggest. However, Allen Dulles sent Cameron to "assess" Rudolf Hess in November 1945. 1945! And we're meant to believe that the CIA only learnt of Cameron's memory destruction and implantation work on human subjects in 1957? Truly preposterous.

This is not an attack on Ross, Scheflin and Marks - far from it. They have all done excellent work in exposing parts of these covert mind control programmes. And within the mainstream context, there are arguably right to be cautious with their comments. But, as Marks says, the secret world is almost certainly "at least 10 years ahead" of the official state of scientific knowledge with regard to mind control. Whilst Ross adds that it is "implausible" given the history to suppose that there has not been extensive testing of non-lethal weapons (aka electronic and other mind control technology) on an unwitting human popualation in the decades since the official end of MK-ULTRA.

The History Channel documentary addressed the tip of the mind control iceberg. That tip has been visible since the late 1970s. The really important material is the massive great chunk of ice still floating beneath the waterline, an iceberg which is almost certainly far nastier and more lethal than the glimpses we've had over the years.

I tend to agree, still it is a pretty good "basic" introduction to the world of MKULTRA, at least for those who are not very knowledgeable about it. Point on Olsen, is well taken.

Did you know?

The son of Frank Olsen and his widow, unable to get a straight story re the circumstances of Frank's death, managed to meet with then Pres. Ford after Nixon had resigned.

Ford appeared to be genuinely touched regarding the Olsen's and........well here is where it all seemed to go back into the rabbit hole.

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd0828.html

Chris Floyd refers to it as the 2nd coverup.......courtesy of a couple of really big names in the current epoch.

[Greg Parker]

Thanks Greg. I'll also promise to try to sort out in my slothful, recalcitrant mind the difference between the dad and granddad. I'm both and it's confusing me no end.

David, I had no idea you were Austrian.

Meanwhile - completely off topic - you may be interested in this piece on the Top Secret US Pine Gap base in Australia:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...va&aid=8858

Jan, Richard Neville is a name I haven't seen in a while. Good to see he's still in their punching away. He certainly makes some good points.

On matters of general interest re MKULTRA, here are a couple of items:

This is the contents of a diary found in California after the assassination. It was supposedly written by someone named Eric Ritzek and follows Eric's days leading up to Nov 22 and his use of hypnosis to program both Oswald and Ruby.

The Ritzek Diary

My own opinion is that it is pure fiction, but one that was the product of a very disturbed individual.

The other is about a person with the unlikely (but apparently real) name of Guy Nice. I have posted about GN before, but think he is worth another go around since I do believe his story may have elements of truth to it.

Nice was arrested at 2:30am on Apr 20, 1965 in his VW on S. Marselis. His car was found to contain several different kinds of unknown tablets and powders, a hunting knife, a .22 caliber rifle and two letters, one of which was addressed to Jack Ruby.

The report on Nice showed the DPD had lost none of its uncanny knack for (mis)identifying Communists by claiming Nice identified himself that way in the letters.

What the letter to Ruby actually says however, is that "we are the creators and sponsors of Communism". The "we" seems to be people backing Goldwater for the presidency (which in itself dates the letter to prior to the election in '64). He also mentions another patsy they had lined up for DP who got away on them.

The other letter goes into problems he had living in Europe and seems to indicate he was the target of Radio-Hypnotic Intracerebral Control attempts or similar.

DPD report on Guy Nice

Scroll down to folder 11 item 8.