Who killed "Long Liz?"

[Guest Stephen Turner]

RESERVED FOR SEMINAR TOPIC.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

SEMINAR TOPIC 2, WHO KILLED LONG LIZ< PART ONE.

JUST THE FACTS.

Whilst there are several oddities about this killing, it may be useful, before speculating, to lay out the known facts.

THE WITNESSES.

There are several witnesses to Strides movements before the murder, although the previous few days are almost a blank. She was in the Queens Head Public House at 6-30pm, By 7-00pm, she was back in her lodging house,32, Flower & Dean St,(Seen by Catherine Lane.) 11-00pm J Best & John Gardner, see her leaving the Bricklayers Arms, in Settles St, with a "clerky"man, they joke that she is with "Leather Apron 11-45pm, William Marshall, see's her with a man in Berner St, he hears the man say to Stride "You would say anything but your prayers"The couple then walk off in the direction of Dutfields Yard. Marshall describes the man as,5ft 6 ins tall, stout, middle aged, clean shaven, wearing a black cut-away coat,dark trousers, round cap with a peak (Like a sailors) 30th Sept 12-30am,PC William Smith, see's a man & woman in Berner St, near where the body was later found, man, 5ft 7ins, about 28-30 years old,small dark moustache & dark complexion, wearing a black cut-away coat, hard felt hat, white collar & tie, carriying a parcel about 18ins long, 6-8 ins wide. PC Smith later I/D ed the woman as Stride. 12-35-12-40am Morris Eagle, returns to the Berner St Club, after walking his Girlfriend home,he see's nothing strange at this time, although he admits he could have missed a body in the darkness. 12-45am, Israel Schwartz,walks past the gateway of the club,he see's a man stop, & speak to a woman who was standing in the gateway. He later identifies Stride as the woman he saw. Man,5ft-5ins, 30years old, fair complexion, dark hair,brown moustache,full face & broad shoulders, wearing dark jacket & trousers, black cap with a peak.He tried to pull the woman into the street, then threw her to the floor, the woman screamed three times, BUT NOT LOUDLY. On crossing the street, Schartz saw a second man, standing lighting a clay pipe,Man 5ft 11ins,35 years old, light brown hair, & moustache,dark overcoat, dark hard felt hat, the man who had thrown the woman too the ground shouted out "Lipski" apparantly to Pipeman,( a term of abuse used against Jewish People.) Schwartz ran as far as the railway arch, and felt "Pipeman may have followed him for a short distance (unsure testimony) 12-45am James Brown was returning home from work,he saw a man & woman standing outside the board school in Fairclough St adjacent to Berner St, the man looked to be impeding her. man 5ft 7ins, stout, long dark overcoat,as he walked past the couple he heard the woman say, "No, not tonight. someother night. Brown was almost certain the woman he saw was Stride. 1-00am,Lious Diemschutz, steward of the Berner St club, returns in his pony & cart ,the pony is reluctant to enter the yard, & shies up to the left. Diemschutz see's a small heap on the ground, upon striking a match he discovers it is the body of a woman, her face turned towards the wall. He could not tell if she was drunk or dead. HE enters the club and tells them what he has found, by the light of a candle they could see blood by the body,her right arm was over her belly, hands and wrists covered in blood, and her throat had been cut.they hurry off in search of a constable.

DR PHILLIPS AUTOPSY REPORT.

Her left arm was extended and there was a packet of cachous in the left hand...The right arm was over the belly. The back of the hand and wrist was covered witn clotted blood. The legs were drawn up, with the feet close to the wall.The body and face were warm, the hands cold. Deceased had a handkerchief round her neck, which appeared to be slightly torn

The throat was deeply gashed, and there was an abrasion of the skin about 1-2ins in diameter, stained with blood. there was mud on the left side of the face,and the hair was matted with it. over both shoulders , especially the right,and under the collar boneand in front of the chest, there was a blueish discoloration. There was a clean-cut incision on the neck.It was 6ins in length, depth 2ins,in a straight line below the angle of the jaw. The cut was very clean, and deviated a little downwards. The artery, and other vessels were all cut though. From this it was evident that the haemorrage was caused by the partial severance of the left carotid artery.

Examining her jacket, I found that while there was a small ammount on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud....

"WE PARTED ON GOOD TERMS" WHO KILLED LONG LIZ.

The first point to make is that Dutfields Yard is really quite different from other Ripper sites. Lets examine this.

STRIDE, Dutfields Yard, Well lit, people walking the streets,near very busy club.

TABRAM, George Yard, A dark landing, away from the stairs.

NICHOLS, Bucks Row, Poor lighting, quiet Street, very few pedestrians.

CHAPMAN, Hanbury St, Quiet, dark, back yard.

EDDOWES, Mitre Sq, Dark, enclosed Sq, poorly lit entrances.

KELLY, Millers Court, Single room in quiet court, off Dorset St.(1)

Now the point is often made that the reason Jack did not mutilate Stride, in the manner of his other victims, is that he was disturbed by Diemschutz's return.This then begs the question, why choose an area where the chance of discovery is so very high? This after all, is the man who waits until 4-20(Approx) in the morning to murder Chapman,Why so impulsive this time around.

A SIMPLE "DOMESTIC?"

So is there any one else who can be "Put in the frame" so to speak. Yes there is, one Michael Kidney, Strides ex boyfriend. Lets put some meat on the bones.

AP Wolf (Jack the myth(2)) Suggests Kidney as the murderer, Noting that a high percentage of murders are "Domestics."And there is some evidence to support this view. (NOTE, I am not saying that Kidney is the ripper,just a plausable suspect in Strides murder.) Both PC Smith, & Schwartz see Liz Stride on the night of her murder. Smith describes two people acting friendly towards each other.People who had seen Stride earlier on in the evening, say she had taken more care than usual with her appearance. The man seen by Schwartz is not the same man, and I feel is almost certainly her killer. He see's the start of the attack, before fleeing in fear. It could be argued that the man PC Smith see's Stride with is a new Gentleman-Friend, Whilst the man seen by Schwartz is an angry Kidney. He already had a history of violence towards Stride, and had tried in the past to padlock her in her bedroom, to prevent her from leaving him. Also Kidney claimed that he and Stride had parted on good terms,this is however contradicted by a neighbour,who recalls terrible fights between the two, and threats being made. There is also the srtange claim made by Schwartz, that upon being thrown to the ground, Stride screamed three times, but not very loudly, NOT VERY LOUDLY!! Your being attacked at the hight of the ripper scare,yet you do not wish to alarm anyone?This sounds more like a scream of protest, against someone already known to the victim.

Perhaps the most incriminating point against Kidney, is his behavior on the mornig of the murder. He arrives at Leman St Police station, in an aggitated, druken condition, ranting about Strides death, and cursing the Police for their inability to catch the ripper. Stride had been identified incorrectly as,"Lizzie Stokes"at this time. and was not properly identified until much later. The question therefor is, how did Kidney know that the dead woman was Stride, and not Stokes? Did police questions of him run along the lines of, "Where were you on the nights of, 31st of August, 8th of Sept, etc, and upon recieving good alibies conclude that he was not the ripper, and so not the killer of Stride?

1,Scott Hannaford, "So long Liz" 2005.

2,AP Wolf, "Jack the Myth" Robinson Publishing, 1999.

Edited June 17, 2005 by Stephen Turner

[Guest Stephen Turner]

The next bit is more interesting I promise. But as I have said before its good for newcomers to the case to have a basic understanding of the relevent facts. ( Such as they are.) Steve.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Theory now posted, please peer-review, and offer rebuttal. Thanks Steve.

[Christopher T. George]

Hi Steve

Thank you very much for your comprehensive posting of the information surrounding the murder of Elizabeth "Long Liz" Stride. I don't find the contention about the murder having been committed by her boyfriend, Michael Kidney, to be especially convincing, and I hold the traditional view that the murder was done by the Ripper but that he lost his nerve before he mutilated her, either because he heard Louis Diemschutz approaching with the horse and cart or just the fact that the assault and murder took place in a busy location, albeit in a side yard, but at the side of a noisy social club. He might have suddenly realised he was in an exposed location, and that he better retreat. There is always the question about whether he was high on alcohol or drugs and was driven to murder by his condition but then backed off.

In regard to Schwartz's testimony, the cry of "Lipsky!" is certainly intriguing and the whole of Schwartz's statement appears to raise more questions than it answers. There is the school of thought that the assault that Schwartz witnessed was entirely separate to her murder although that kind of stretches belief that she could have been assaulted twice in a matter of minutes.

Steve, you wrote:

"There is also the strange claim made by Schwartz, that upon being thrown to the ground, Stride screamed three times, but not very loudly, NOT VERY LOUDLY!! Your being attacked at the hight of the ripper scare,yet you do not wish to alarm anyone?This sounds more like a scream of protest, against someone already known to the victim."

I suppose my question about Schwartz is how well what he was saying, as a Hungarian Jew, was understood by the police. Presumably he was speaking in Yiddish, through an interpreter, so when he said that upon being thrown to the ground, Stride screamed three times, but not very loudly, do we take this literally or is there some misunderstanding in the translation when he said she screamed "but not very loudly" which you are correct is a very odd thing to say. My hunch is that there might have been somewhat of a language problem in the way what he actually meant was interpreted.

Steve, I hope this helps -- a few thoughts from my perspective on your interesting post.

Have a good weekend, Steve, and everyone.

Best regards

Chris George

[Stewart Evans]

Because the issues surrounding the witnesses and the supposed sighting of victim and suspect in the case of the murder of Elizabeth Stride are so complex it really does pay to boil it down to basics. There are more sightings of a supposed suspect and victim than in any of the other murders. This is not surprising as it was a relatively very busy location with a socialist club meeting and sing-song going on adjacent to where the body was found. The pro and con arguments are really quite simple.

It was another Ripper killing because -

1. It was mid-series in the so-called Ripper murders and there was another Ripper murder within an hour not very far away.

2. The throat was cut.

3. She was a typical Ripper victim, a casual prostitute soliciting on the streets in the early hours.

4. The police believed her to be another Ripper victim.

It may not have been a Ripper killing because -

1. It was an atypical Ripper murder location, a much frequented yard/entrance in a busy street with much activity taking place.

2. The method of killing was different - no indication of any strangulation or attempt to strangle, the vicitim was apparently forced to the ground, held down by the shoulders and the throat cut (even the throat wound was inflicted in a different manner) and there was no mutilation.

3. If the attacker seen by Schwartz was the killer, then he was probably the worse for drink and he attacked her knowing there were witnesses in view.

4. It was stated that some of the City Police felt that her killer was not the same as the Mitre Square killer (of Catherine Eddowes).

5. The type of attack apparently suffered by Stride was more typical of a violent domestic situation or drunken client than the more, apparently, careful and insidous method of the Ripper.

But, of course, all this is in the realms of speculation and opinion and the simple answer is that it remained (and will remain) an unsolved murder and it is a matter of opinion as to whether it was committed by the unknown Ripper or not.

It may have been - then, again, it may not have been.

Edited June 18, 2005 by Stewart Evans

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Hi Steve

Thank you very much for your comprehensive posting of the information surrounding the murder of Elizabeth "Long Liz" Stride. I don't find the contention about the murder having been committed by her boyfriend, Michael Kidney, to be especially convincing, and I hold the traditional view that the murder was done by the Ripper but that he lost his nerve before he mutilated her, either because he heard Louis Diemschutz approaching with the horse and cart or just the fact that the assault and murder took place in a busy location, albeit in a side yard, but at the side of a noisy social club. He might have suddenly realised he was in an exposed location, and that he better retreat. There is always the question about whether he was high on alcohol or drugs and was driven to murder by his condition but then backed off.

In regard to Schwartz's testimony, the cry of "Lipsky!" is certainly intriguing and the whole of Schwartz's statement appears to raise more questions than it answers. There is the school of thought that the assault that Schwartz witnessed was entirely separate to her murder although that kind of stretches belief that she could have been assaulted twice in a matter of minutes.

Steve, you wrote:

"There is also the strange claim made by Schwartz, that upon being thrown to the ground, Stride screamed three times, but not very loudly, NOT VERY LOUDLY!! Your being attacked at the hight of the ripper scare,yet you do not wish to alarm anyone?This sounds more like a scream of protest, against someone already known to the victim."

I suppose my question about Schwartz is how well what he was saying, as a Hungarian Jew, was understood by the police. Presumably he was speaking in Yiddish, through an interpreter, so when he said that upon being thrown to the ground, Stride screamed three times, but not very loudly, do we take this literally or is there some misunderstanding in the translation when he said she screamed "but not very loudly" which you are correct is a very odd thing to say. My hunch is that there might have been somewhat of a language problem in the way what he actually meant was interpreted.

Steve, I hope this helps -- a few thoughts from my perspective on your interesting post.

Have a good weekend, Steve, and everyone.

Best regards

Chris George

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris, thank you for your thoughts.

Your point about misinterpretation, of Schwartz's comments re "the quiet scream" are well taken,but remain supposition on your part,the police report is all we have to go on as regards this matter,And I belive they would have taken time to record this very important witness verbatim. I am still at a loss to explain how Kidney knew about Strides murder. This I feel is a telling point for his guilt,I of course will never be able to prove it

All the best, Steve.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Because the issues surrounding the witnesses and the supposed sighting of victim and suspect in the case of the murder of Elizabeth Stride are so complex it really does pay to boil it down to basics.  There are more sightings of a supposed suspect and victim than in any of the other murders.  This is not surprising as it was a relatively very busy location with a socialist club meeting and sing-song going on adjacent to where the body was found.  The pro and con arguments are really quite simple.

It was another Ripper killing because -

1.  It was mid-series in the so-called Ripper murders and there was another Ripper murder within an hour not very far away.

2.  The throat was cut.

3.  She was a typical Ripper victim, a casual prostitute soliciting on the streets in the early hours.

4.  The police believed her to be another Ripper victim.

It may not have been a Ripper killing because -

1.  It was an atypical Ripper murder location, a much frequented yard/entrance in a busy street with much activity taking place.

2.  The method of killing was different - no indication of any strangulation or attempt to strangle, the vicitim was apparently forced to the ground, held down by the shoulders and the throat cut (even the throat wound was inflicted in a different manner) and there was no mutilation.

3.  If the attacker seen by Schwartz was the killer, then he was probably the worse for drink and he attacked her knowing there were witnesses in view.

4.  It was stated that some of the City Police felt that her killer was not the same as the Mitre Square killer (of Catherine Eddowes).

5.  The type of attack apparently suffered by Stride was more typical of a violent domestic situation or drunken client than the more, apparently, careful and insidous method of the Ripper.

But, of course, all this is in the realms of speculation and opinion and the simple answer is that it remained (and will remain) an unsolved murder and it is a matter of opinion as to whether it was committed by the unknown Ripper or not.

It may have been - then, again, it may not have been.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stewart, A fine summing up, thanks.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

A SIMPLE "DOMESTIC?"

So is there any one else who can be "Put in the frame" so to speak. Yes there is, one Michael Kidney, Strides ex boyfriend. Lets put some meat on the bones.

AP Wolf (Jack the myth(2)) Suggests Kidney as the murderer, Noting that a high percentage of murders are "Domestics."And there is some evidence to support this view. (NOTE, I am not saying that Kidney is the ripper,just a plausable suspect in Strides murder.) Both PC Smith, & Schwartz see Liz Stride on the night of her murder. Smith describes two people acting friendly towards each other.People who had seen Stride earlier on in the evening, say she had taken more care than usual with her appearance. The man seen by Schwartz is not the same man, and I feel is almost certainly her killer. He see's the start of the attack, before fleeing in fear. It could be argued that the man PC Smith see's Stride with is a new Gentleman-Friend, Whilst the man seen by Schwartz is an angry Kidney. He already had a history of violence towards Stride, and had tried in the past to padlock her in her bedroom, to prevent her from leaving him. Also Kidney claimed that he and Stride had parted on good terms,this is however contradicted by a neighbour,who recalls terrible fights between the two, and threats being made. There is also the srtange claim made by Schwartz, that upon being thrown to the ground, Stride screamed three times, but not very loudly, NOT VERY LOUDLY!! Your being attacked at the hight of the ripper scare,yet you do not wish to alarm anyone?This sounds more like a scream of protest, against someone already known to the victim.

Perhaps the most incriminating point against Kidney, is his behavior on the mornig of the murder. He arrives at Leman St Police station, in an aggitated, druken condition, ranting about Strides death, and cursing the Police for their inability to catch the ripper. Stride had been identified incorrectly as,"Lizzie Stokes"at this time. and was not properly identified until much later. The question therefor is, how did Kidney know that the dead woman was Stride, and not Stokes? Did police questions of him run along the lines of, "Where were you on the nights of, 31st of August, 8th of Sept, etc, and upon recieving good alibies conclude that he was not the ripper, and so not the killer of Stride?

1,Scott Hannaford, "So long Liz" 2005.

2,AP Wolf, "Jack the Myth" Robinson Publishing, 1999.

I thought, as these threads are recieving some interest again, I would pull up this section of an old thread, because the question remains unanswered. How did Kidney know of Strides death, before the police had officially reported it?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

A SIMPLE "DOMESTIC?"

So is there any one else who can be "Put in the frame" so to speak. Yes there is, one Michael Kidney, Strides ex boyfriend. Lets put some meat on the bones.

AP Wolf (Jack the myth(2)) Suggests Kidney as the murderer, Noting that a high percentage of murders are "Domestics."And there is some evidence to support this view. (NOTE, I am not saying that Kidney is the ripper,just a plausable suspect in Strides murder.) Both PC Smith, & Schwartz see Liz Stride on the night of her murder. Smith describes two people acting friendly towards each other.People who had seen Stride earlier on in the evening, say she had taken more care than usual with her appearance. The man seen by Schwartz is not the same man, and I feel is almost certainly her killer. He see's the start of the attack, before fleeing in fear. It could be argued that the man PC Smith see's Stride with is a new Gentleman-Friend, Whilst the man seen by Schwartz is an angry Kidney. He already had a history of violence towards Stride, and had tried in the past to padlock her in her bedroom, to prevent her from leaving him. Also Kidney claimed that he and Stride had parted on good terms,this is however contradicted by a neighbour,who recalls terrible fights between the two, and threats being made. There is also the srtange claim made by Schwartz, that upon being thrown to the ground, Stride screamed three times, but not very loudly, NOT VERY LOUDLY!! Your being attacked at the hight of the ripper scare,yet you do not wish to alarm anyone?This sounds more like a scream of protest, against someone already known to the victim.

Perhaps the most incriminating point against Kidney, is his behavior on the mornig of the murder. He arrives at Leman St Police station, in an aggitated, druken condition, ranting about Strides death, and cursing the Police for their inability to catch the ripper. Stride had been identified incorrectly as,"Lizzie Stokes"at this time. and was not properly identified until much later. The question therefor is, how did Kidney know that the dead woman was Stride, and not Stokes? Did police questions of him run along the lines of, "Where were you on the nights of, 31st of August, 8th of Sept, etc, and upon recieving good alibies conclude that he was not the ripper, and so not the killer of Stride?

1,Scott Hannaford, "So long Liz" 2005.

2,AP Wolf, "Jack the Myth" Robinson Publishing, 1999.

I thought, as these threads are recieving some interest again, I would pull up this section of an old thread, because the question remains unanswered. How did Kidney know of Strides death, before the police had officially reported it?

Still worth a read, as the central question has not been answered.