Speed of the Motorcade

[Bill Miller]

Bill or anyone,

Why would there be a flurry of shots after JFK was obviously dead? This flurry apparently included the Badgeman firing. Was it to make sure the world understood that this was a team of shooters (compliments of Havana)? One thing we can be sure of, it was not done to frame a lone gunman.

Ron

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Ron - I think the reaction of JFK being hit in the head by a projectile is what caused the Badge Man to miss his shot. 3.6/18s of a second is not enough time for someone to see a bullet hit its mark and then have time to abort one's own shot IMO. One consideration has been that shots may have been fired in conjuction with one another so to leave the impression that only one shot was actually heard. Witnesses seeing a bullet sparking off the street at a time Connally was wounded is one example of this. I think Badge Man was off by a split second with the timing of his shot to Hat Man's and is why witnesses heard the 'sonic boom' sound effect.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Bill Miller

[John Dolva]

Bill or anyone,

Why would there be a flurry of shots after JFK was obviously dead? This flurry apparently included the Badgeman firing. Was it to make sure the world understood that this was a team of shooters (compliments of Havana)? One thing we can be sure of, it was not done to frame a lone gunman.

Ron

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Ron - I think the reaction of JFK being hit in the head by a projectile is what caused the Badge Man to miss his shot. 3.6/18s of a second is not enough time for someone to see a bullet hit its mark and then have time to abort one's own shot IMO. One consideration has been that shots may have been fired in conjuction with one another so to leave the impression that only one shot was actually heard. Witnesses seeing a bullet sparking off the street at a time Connally was wounded is one example of this. I think Badge Man was off by a split second with the timing of his shot to Hat Man's and is why witnesses heard the 'sonic boom' sound effect.

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Another possibility is that the GK sound was nothing more than that,a blank, to take attention away from the actual shot. If so that feint has been successful in having a large part of the research community for 40 odd years not looking in the right direction. just a thought.??

[Tim Gratz]

John, I think that is a very interesting thought!

What do other members think of his suggestion?

Could the actual assassins have been using silencers?

The person or persons who planned the assassination must have been very intelligent. They may very well have lured innocent people to Dallas to "muddy the waters".

John's idea of a loud shot to distract attention is certainly worthy of consideration, in my opinion.

[Bill Miller]

Another possibility is that the GK sound was nothing more than that,a blank, to take attention away from the actual shot. If so that feint has been successful in having a large part of the research community for 40 odd years not looking in the right direction. just a thought.??

I can't follow what was said here ... did I miss something? It seems that if someone on the knoll used a blank - they still have given their firing location up and have risked being apprehended and taking the fall as a fellow conspirator. I might also add that there are two possible shooters on the knoll ... The Hat Man who was responsible for the smoke being seen coming through the trees and of course, the Badge Man seen in Moorman's photo.

[John Dolva]

John, I think that is a very interesting thought!

What do other members think of his suggestion?

Could the actual assassins have been using silencers?

The person or persons who planned the assassination must have been very intelligent.  They may very well have lured innocent people to Dallas to "muddy the waters". 

John's idea of a loud shot to distract attention is certainly worthy of consideration, in my opinion.

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From military snipers website, '..you can take potshots at someone all day at 600 meters without them having a clue they're being shot at' presumably this gets less likely as one gets closer, however the idea of a diversionary blank masking a distance shot is not so farfetched, ... Al??

keywords : exterior ballistics

[Pat Speer]

I've done quite a bit of research on silencers and psycho-acoustics, and it is an absolute fact that a silenced shot could have been fired from the Dal-Tex or County Records Buildings without being obvious to the spectators below. I believe that the fact that neither the WC or HSCA mentions the possibilities of silencers being used in their reports is indicative that they were aware one could have been used. It makes sense to me that if there were reasons to believe one wasn't used they would have definitely discussed it.

The earwitnesses reveal beyond a shadow of a doubt that SOME LOUD NOISE was heard from an area west of the TSBD. The lone-nutter argument that the earwitnesses heard echoes is completely refuted by the HSCA tests of an actual M-C rifle being fired in Dealey. If there was a shot fired from the knoll area, it missed. Due to the reports of smoke on the knoll, which would have been minimal if a shot had been fired, I suspect that someone up there may have lit off a cherry bomb or some other explosive, designed to distract everyone from the TSBD, so that the REAL shooter(s) could escape.

But back on point... Larry's post seems to shut down my speculation about the SS being deliberately distracted. While I agree that Greer's mistakes are understandable, we still don't know exactly why he was driving so slow. We'll probably never know.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Al Carrier]

John, I think that is a very interesting thought!

What do other members think of his suggestion?

Could the actual assassins have been using silencers?

The person or persons who planned the assassination must have been very intelligent.  They may very well have lured innocent people to Dallas to "muddy the waters". 

John's idea of a loud shot to distract attention is certainly worthy of consideration, in my opinion.

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From military snipers website, '..you can take potshots at someone all day at 600 meters without them having a clue they're being shot at' presumably this gets less likely as one gets closer, however the idea of a diversionary blank masking a distance shot is not so farfetched, ... Al??

keywords : exterior ballistics

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John,

I will first address this and then move on to tracking and add issues of silencer/suppressor.

The military has taught through scout/sniper schools for some fifty-plus years and art that was developed during WWI that is called "canyon shoot". What this is is a technique that utilizes a far distant shooter without a good line but with an easy escape, to draw attention to their position while the nearer and more ideal shot origin fires from startle reaction to the first shot. This allows this shooter to get off the effective shot without drawing attention to their position. Persons lock in on what they first hear and focus on that sound and it subconciously overrides sounds immediately following. I have discussed this at-length both here and on Lancer over the past couple of years.

Tracking a target is greatly effected by less than ideal conditions, such as elevation, angle and speed. In the case of the 60' elevation of the TSBD, we are dealing with issues of gravitional pull factors as well as a target that is changing direction, elevation and speed as it proceeds down the plaza. A very difficult track. In the case of the Grassy Knoll or north knoll, we are dealing with a very close shot at a target that is moving at varying speed at an extreme angle. Again, in this case, a difficult track. As I have said time and again, the ideal origin would be from the south end atop the overpass or south knoll region after the elevation factor levels off and the target begins a near direct route toward the shooter. The previous shots have drawn attention to other locations and convinced the wits and protection detail of another shot origin.

Silencers is a poor term as it does extremely quiet the initial detonation of the bullet, but does nothing to quiet the bullet bow shockwave of a rifle caliber projectile travelling at velocities of greater than 1800fps. Depending on where the witness is, will have an effect on where the attention is drawn from the preceived shot origin. Not to mention the timing of the shot to other shot origins that would have a subconscious conclusion through recall on the part of the witness.

Al

[Larry Hancock]

Pat, it's pretty speculative but I have heard reports that some witnesses remarked that Greer almost botched the ultra sharp turn at Elm and Houston and went way out of center, almost to the curb. If that were true its just possible that it may have slowed him down a good bit.... that limo was pretty heavy and takes a bit to get moving again.

I guess you would have to run the light in Dallas to test it but it would be interesting to see how much that turn slows down an average driver and how quick you do come back up to speed without punching it and annoying your passengers.

-- as I said, just speculation, Larry

I've done quite a bit of research on silencers and psycho-acoustics, and it is an absolute fact that a silenced shot could have been fired from the Dal-Tex or County Records Buildings without being obvious to the spectators below.  I believe that the fact that neither the WC or HSCA mentions the possibilities of silencers being used in their reports is indicative that they were aware one could have been used.  It makes sense to me that if there were reasons to believe one wasn't used they would have definitely discussed it.

The earwitnesses reveal beyond a shadow of a doubt that SOME LOUD NOISE was heard from an area west of the TSBD. The lone-nutter argument that the earwitnesses heard echoes is completely refuted by the HSCA tests of an actual M-C rifle being fired in Dealey.  If there was a shot fired from the knoll area, it missed.  Due to the reports of smoke on the knoll, which would have been minimal if a shot had been fired, I suspect that someone up there may have lit off a cherry bomb or some other explosive, designed to distract everyone from the TSBD, so that the REAL shooter(s) could escape.

But back on point... Larry's post seems to shut down my speculation about the SS being deliberately distracted.  While I agree that Greer's mistakes are understandable, we still  don't know exactly why he was driving so slow.  We'll probably never know.

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[John Dolva]

Pat I'm hoping that you won't mind this apparent divergence of thread, I suspect a number of members are ( I do ) looking here regularly for input from Al and others. Anyway, until you request the thread be taken elsewhere ::

I remember reading a historical novel of the early stages of the 'battle of britain' before dunkirk, when the british were still forming squadrons and changing tactics etc from those applying to biplanes of wwII to those of the much faster wwI planes. One squadron leader with prior experience in china, I think it was(or maybe spain), put on a demonstration of something that he had learnt and that he suspected the germans already knew as indicated by their success in certain battles. He called the squadron together for a group photo and when everyone was 'in the picture' by a pre arranged signal a gun was fired directly behind the group. the picture was snapped. EVERYONE, irrespective of where they had stood in relation to the shot had turned to look over their RIGHT shoulder! Once they understood this they could train themselves to not forget to scan left, hence lives were saved, battles won, an imbalance redressed. The germans had taken to sneaking up on the left wing! How relevant is this, I don't know.

Al, thank you for your clarifying input, much appreciated. I would like to hear comments on decrease in accuracy (or not) of silencers.

I may have missed it but do these trips include planning that say something like ....proceed down elm street, once the crowd is thinning out go to .. speed and proceed to mart...etc. on paper. I may have missed this too... was the slowing start as a reaction to the first shot, if so exactly where did the slowing start?

Bill, on the issue of shooter of blanks or letting off of cherry bombs, such a person could presumably be able to prove that such an event was purely coincidental, gun used could be totally different caliber, a pistol perhaps which is easier to fling away, then just stand there looking innocent and wonder why everyone's looking there or perhaps join the crowd looking?

[Bill Miller]

Bill, on the issue of shooter of blanks or letting off of cherry bombs, such a person could presumably be able to prove that such an event was purely coincidental, gun used could be totally different caliber, a pistol perhaps which is easier to fling away, then just stand there looking innocent and wonder why everyone's looking there or perhaps join the crowd looking?

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I suppose that could be possible in some cases, but in this instance a witness saw the man with a rifle and not a cherry bomb. Another witness felt a bullet go past his ear. It doesn't seem to me that the conspirators were thinking about cherry bombs and such that day.

[John Dolva]

Bill, on the issue of shooter of blanks or letting off of cherry bombs, such a person could presumably be able to prove that such an event was purely coincidental, gun used could be totally different caliber, a pistol perhaps which is easier to fling away, then just stand there looking innocent and wonder why everyone's looking there or perhaps join the crowd looking?

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I suppose that could be possible in some cases, but in this instance a witness saw the man with a rifle and not a cherry bomb. Another witness felt a bullet go past his ear. It doesn't seem to me that the conspirators were thinking about cherry bombs and such that day.

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Good point, Bill, you got me there...I'm tempted to suggest a stick or something else that could suggest a rifle, but I suppose one could question why . After all other reports indicate witnessing of rapid withdrawal of a shooter.

John

[Bill Miller]

Good point, Bill, you got me there...I'm tempted to suggest a stick or something else that could suggest a rifle, but I suppose one could question why . After all other reports indicate witnessing of rapid withdrawal of a shooter.

John

Thanks. And not only did they withdraw and disappear after the shooting - one was found to be impersonating a SS agent. I cannot think of an innocent explanation of needing a fake SS agent nearby unless someone was up to no good.

[Jack White]

Larry Peters returns!

[Bernice Moore]

I don’t understand how it can be argued that there was no security stripping in the Dallas motorcade. Look at the simple facts, as related in HSCA v. 11. The DPD had meetings on November 18 and 19, where it was agreed to use 18 motorcycles. This would include motorcycles on either side, five at the rear, four immediately ahead, and three to precede the motorcade by two blocks. But at a meeting of the DPD with SS agents Sorrels, Lawson, and David Grant on November 21, the DPD was told that this was too many, the number was cut back, and that JFK did not want motorcycles directly on each side, he wanted the officers to the rear, when in fact JFK had never said any such thing, as SS agents would state years later. 

Quoting the HSCA: “The Secret Service’s alteration of the original Dallas Police Department motorcade deployment plan prevented the use of maximum possible security precautions. Surprisingly, the security measure used in the prior motorcades during the same Texas visit shows that the deployment of motorcycles in Dallas by the Secret Service may have been uniquely insecure.”

This is born out by what occurred only the day before in Houston, as Palamara notes the following in a list of “anomalies” in video clips of the Dallas trip:

“Houston motorcade clip from 11/21/63- shows JFK's limo surrounded by approx. 18 motorcycles !”

http://www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/Network%20Anomolies.htm

Others can see what they want in all this, but what I see in that lonely limo crawling down Elm Street with nothing but wide open space in front and to either side is security stripping about as flagrant as it gets.

Ron

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Hi Ron:

You may be interested to see these two...Cecil Stoughton photos....taken in Tampa Florida, on Nov.18/63..

Tim: Please note motorcycles at the side of the Limo.......and SS riding on the

back.....

B

Edited July 4, 2005 by Bernice Moore

[Bill Miller]

Larry Peters returns!

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....... and so does your paranoia! What gives with that stupid remark ?

Paranoia: a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others