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Stephen Roy

Jack S. Martin Sr.

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Paul Trejo wrote:

"Jack Martin knew Walker well enough to learn that Lee Harvey Oswald would be in New Orleans, in front of the Trade Mart on 9 August 1963, handing out these leaflets and getting arrested for causing a commotion."

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Wrong, Trejo. But don't feel bad. Lots of researchers and students of the assassination get this all screwed up.

Lee Harvey Oswald (along with Carlos Bringuier and Miguel Cruz and Celso Hernandez) was arrested in the 700 block of Canal Street on August 9, 1963.

On that date, Oswald, wearing a placard around his neck which said "Viva la Fidel" (according to amateur photographer Jim Doyle's eleven-year-old sister, Sharon), handed out leaflets along two blocks of Canal Street between the Maison Blance Building at 901-921 Canal Street and the 700 block of Canal Street, where Oswald "got into it" with Carlos Bringuier and the anti-Castro Cubans and was arrested.

According to Martin Shackelford, Oswald's arrest on 8/09/63 in the 700 block of Canal Street was captured on film by only two photographers, both amateurs and both young. One of them was James "Jim" Doyle. The "Oswald" part of Doyle's film is viewable from 3:50 to 4:05 in the video...FWIW, the Doyle "clip" shows the placard around Oswald's at 3:58 and again at 4:02 of this Black Op Radio video...

The other young, amateur photographer to capture Oswald's arrest in the 700 block of Canal Street on 8/09/63 was your John T. Martin, aka "Jack" Martin.

The International Trade Mart was at #2 Canal Street, six blocks farther down the street from where Oswald was arrested.

Oswald didn't do any leafleting at the International Trade Mart on August 9, 1963.

He didn't hand out leaflets there until August 16, 1963.

That was four days after his 8/12/63 court appearance for the above-mentioned 8/09/63 arrest.

Although he was never arrested at the International Trade Mart, he was filmed by two TV stations while leafleting there on 8/16/63.

--Tommy :sun

OK, Tommy, thanks for the correction. I wrote that Oswald was arrested in front of the Trade Mart on Canal Street, when actually Oswald was arrested six blocks further down Canal Street.

Not a major revelation, but it's better to be precise.

Anyway, about that Black Ops Radio video on YouTube, which features Joan Mellen narrating, it seems to me she continues her conclusion-jumping from her book, FAREWELL TO JUSTICE (2005) by suggesting that David Ferrie and Clay Shaw were a CIA Officers.

She does that a lot. More precisely, Clay Shaw was a part-time CIA gopher, and David Ferrie was a gopher for ex-FBI man Guy Banister, a peer to the alcoholic Jack S. Martin (50 years old) and the con-man Fred Crisman.

Joan Mellen also portrays these latter two street-urchins as CIA Officers.

I must note here that Joan Mellen does gather lots of good data -- but ultimately she's the protégé of Jim Garrison, and she repeats his errors on nearly every page of her work -- that is, she assumes the CIA controlled every aspect of the JFK murder.

I think that when all the facts finally come forth, we'll find that only CIA *ROGUES* were involved in the JFK murder plot, and that these *ROGUES* weren't the leaders of the plot, but followed the orders of its true, CIVILIAN leaders.

But this is obscured by Joan Mellen's fealty to Jim Garrison's failed to blame the CIA for the JFK murder.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

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As Dulles said, most CIA officers will never admit as much, nor will the CIA identify them. So how can you decide who is and who isn't CIA? Ironic that Hoover famously wrote a memo to 'George Bush of the CIA'. Does anyone know of other instances where Hoover identified CIA agents by name?

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As Dulles said, most CIA officers will never admit as much, nor will the CIA identify them. So how can you decide who is and who isn't CIA? Ironic that Hoover famously wrote a memo to 'George Bush of the CIA'. Does anyone know of other instances where Hoover identified CIA agents by name?

One way to decide who is CIA and who isn't is first of all to see if they were dirt poor. CIA officers made good money.

Lee Harvey Oswald lived hand to mouth. David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin, Fred Crisman and Thomas Beckham had trouble making their car payments. Howard Hunt and Richard Helms drove new cars. That's another way to tell.

Another way to tell is basic English skills. Thomas Beckham was known for mangling the English grammar, even though he was a mildly successful Folk singer. Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't complete a single page of English text without spelling errors.

Salary. Education. The neighborhood in which one lived. These are all plausible signs.

As for "George Bush," one should first count how many people named "George Bush" live in America before one jumps to conclusions. As if there was only one! It's remarkable to me that the "Bush-did-it" theory relies so much on that single phrase by Hoover.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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There was only one other George Bush in the CIA in 1963, and he gave sworn testimony that the memo was not written to him. The only reasonable conclusions are that he was lying under oath, or that George Herbert Walker Bush, who certainly fits your profile, was in the CIA in 1963. I don't find your explanation that financial well being is proof of anything, though it is true that CIA men whose names are public knowledge were certainly well heeled. I prefer to believe Dulles, and think your point makes his statement more believable. We are purposely left in the dark about who is or isn't CIA.

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Well, getting back to the theme of this thread, I think we can say with confidence that the 50-year old Jack S. Martin, who was a lower-middle-class alcoholic and a contender with David Ferrie to become a Bishop in a mail-order Church was NOT in the CIA.

Yet we have some evidence from Thomas Beckham that Jack S. Martin (like David Ferrie) put on airs like he was in the CIA.

This makes identifying who was and who wasn't in the CIA more difficult. These low-level associates of Guy Banister even seem to have fooled fine writers like Jim Garrison and Joan Mellen.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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[...]

Tommy, I appreciate your diligence in reviewing this interesting material about Jack [sic] T. Martin. Also, I appreciate your patience and courtesy, even when I sometimes become excitable.

I'm not yet accusing the FBI of altering data -- I only repeated that Gary Schoener said to beware of this possibility. So I will keep an open mind.

So let's look at the entries more closely. The FBI report says that these cards were delivered on 10 December 1965. Then it gives the entries for hundreds of Minutemen (MM) members. But there is a lack of consistency in the record-keeping. For example, the age of the member is usually recorded, but sometimes it isn't recorded. Usually an occupation, hobbies, a phone number or dues are recorded, yet sometimes they aren't recorded.

Here's the entry for John Martin:

MARTIN, JOHN T. 29602

1752 Iglehart Apt. 4

St. Paul 4, Minnesota

Phone:

Sex: M, Age: 17, Occupation: student

Hobbies and skills: music, coin collecting, chess, microscopy

Activity:

Material:

Dues:

[...]

It looks like the mysterious John T. Martin (who not only filmed the bullet damage inside General Walker's house but also filmed Oswald's arrest on August 9, 1963) was renting an apartment in this 10-bedroom (6 unit) house in Saint Paul, Minnesota, when he joined the Minutemen.

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1752-Iglehart-Ave-Apt-3_Saint-Paul_MN_55104_M77146-41495

Harold Weisberg's associate Gary Schoener met John T. Martin in 1968 and said he appeared to be in his mid-to-late 20's at that time.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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No, I think it is far from a waste of time, the results you present are interesting and add to the overall knowledgbase. If I needed clarification, maybe others do....

Tom, I repeat my gratitude to everybody on this thread. I now know with certainty that the Jack Martin Film was not the product of Jack S. Martin Sr. who worked for Guy Banister.

However, we still have a problem identifying this John T. Martin with the one described the Shackelford and Schoener.

Today Gary Schoener sent me an email that objects to my idea that John T. Martin was a volunteer for General Edwin Walker. His email reads in part:

> ...[John T.] Martin told us (i.e. Harold Weisberg and me) that he had

> become a pacifist while serving under Walker in Germany, and that he

> had left the service, barely able to get an honorable discharge.

> He claimed to be done with the Birch Society and minutemen.

>

> Gary

This presents a major problem of identification. Here again we have the claim that we heard from Martin Shackelford, that John T. Martin served under General Walker in Germany. But that is impossible if John T. Martin was 17 in August of 1963, because General Walker quit the Army in late November of 1961.

Anybody can do this math. John T. Martin would have had to be 15 years old to serve under Walker in 1961; and he needed two yeras to get an honorable discharge from the Army, so he would have had to enlist at age 13. This is clearly ridiculous.

Can we be talking about the same person? Can we be certain we are talking about the same Jack Martin Film?

The only age that makes sense of the claims of Martin Shackelford (that John Martin served under General Walker) as well as the claims of John T. Martin himself (that he served under Walker in Germany when he became a pacifist) is an age 4-6 years older -- the estimate that Gary Schoener first gave us about the age of John T. Martin.

Schoener said he was 24 in 1968 when he and Harold Weisberg met John T. Martin, and he had the impression that John Martin was older. He estimated about 4-6 years older than himself. Let us say four years older - so John T. Martin would have been 28 in 1968; so he was 21 in 1961 when Walker quit the Army; so he was 19 when he joined the Army. This means he was also 23 in the summer of 1963, when he flew to General Walker's house to film the bullet holes there, and then to NOLA to film Oswald getting arrested.

The FBI records (and the Minuteman records) clearly state that John T. Martin was 17 years old in 1963. Still, it is unlikely that we are speaking about two different men, because the FBI gives the address of that man: FBI documentation shows Minutemen records from August, 1963, with the full identification as:

Name: John T. Martin

Address: 1752 Iglehart, Apt. 4, St. Paul, Minnesota

Age: 17

FBI documents also advise Harold Weisberg that if he wants a copy of the Jack Martin Film, he must contact John T. Martin, personally, because the FBI no longer has a copy. They gave the address as 1752 Iglehart, Apt. 4, St. Paul, MN.

This is the same name, the same middle initial, and the same address. The trouble is that they gave his age as 17, but he told you he served in Germany under General Walker (whose final year in the Army was 1961) -- so there is no way he could have been 17 in 1963. Impossible.

Finally, insofar as John Martin claims that he served under General Walker, then he must have served before Walker quit in November, 1961. Yet we still have records of his Minuteman membership in August, 1963, complete with a dues payment (as I recall). So, this suggests that John T. Walker wasn't *yet* a pacifist in August, 1963. Rather, he must have become a pacifist between 1963 and 1968, when he met Weisberg and Schoener.

This means that John T. Martin became a pacifist *after* August, 1963, when he paid the expense to *fly* to Dallas to film the bullet holes in General Walker's house -- most likely out of respect for this famous General.

If I'm correct, then John T. Martin became a pacifist in late 1963 (at the earliest), and somehow scrambled his own time track and came to believe that he was a pacifist by 1961. (Or perhaps he was torn about the issue in 1961, never fully disconnecting from para-military groups until two years later.)

Schoener wonders why a Minuteman would share his political movies with the FBI and journalists. What did he think the FBI would find there? What did he think the FBI (or the journalists) would seek there?

I wonder whether John Martin explained how, socially, he came to visit Walker's home to take these pictures in the summer of 1963?.

All I can say with certainty today is this -- it is impossible that he served under Walker in Germany during 1961 and was still 17 in 1963.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo, MA

FWIW, there is a John Timothy Martin living in Minnesota today. His mother's maiden name was Hypse, and he was born on November 9, 1943, making him 20 years old at the time of the assassination. He was 24 years old when Schoener met his "John T. Martin" in 1968. He is 72 now...

Does anyone here have access to military records?

Did the John Timothy Martin (DOB 11/09/1943; born in Fresno County, California) I found serve in the U.S. Army (24th Infantry Division) in Germany in the early 1960's?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Ultimately, Jack S. Martin turned out to be the middle-aged informant who told NOLA Jim Garrison all about David Ferrie, and about Lee Harvey Oswald as a bogus member of a bogus FPCC in NOLA, led by Guy Banister (who was the employer of Jack S. Martin).

The other Jack Martin, the young Minuteman from Minnesota who was also an army private under General Walker in Augsburg, Germany in 1960 -- and whose home movie shows both General Walker's home and Lee Oswald on Canal Street -- has refused to be interviewed by anyone, anywhere.

Yet his single home movie links General Walker with Lee Harvey Oswald. Since Jeff Caufield (2015) shows that Walker used Lee Oswald as his patsy in the JFK assassination -- this makes the other Jack Martin into one of the most important people in US History. It is likely that he is still alive -- yet nobody has interviewed him. (Harold Weisberg had a chance, but he botched it.)

It is a coincidence that two of the people with the closest proximity to the JFK facts both had the same name.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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On 12/19/2012 at 11:26 PM, Thomas Graves said:

If anyone were to take the time to read pages 3 and 60 of the HSCA document that Mr. Scully has pointed out, a "John T. Martin" was already 17 years old, a Minuteman, and living in Minneapolis when an unnamed Minuteman in Missouri found approximately 400 Minuteman membership cards (including one for this John T. Martin) in the national headquarters' trash, and turned them in to the FBI on December 10, 1965.

http://www.maryferre...629&relPageId=3

http://www.maryferre...29&relPageId=60

Do the math and you'll see that this John T. Martin was 14 or 15 in August of 1963, and do some more math and figure out how old he would be today.

FWIW, according to one of those "internet background search" websites, there is a John Thomas Martin, apparently of the appropriate age, living in Minnesota today.

--Tommy :sun

P.S. I wonder if the Minuteman John T. Martin was a "junior"? Because, like they say: "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree" (or something like that).

 

I wonder if this John T. Martin in Saint Paul, Minnesota, somehow ties in with the phone call David Ferrie made to someone in Minneapolis immediately prior to calling that bank in my hometown of La Jolla, California, in April, 1962?

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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