J. Raymond Carroll Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 For all you photo experts out there (including wannabes - bear in mind that photo expertise is not a closed shop like medicine). Please review the following links. I believe anyone who can illustrate the aruments therein with photgraphic illustrations will be doing this investigation a great sevice. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...7f1d1a6a3987e38 http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...d401bfd82eaf3e5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted October 23, 2005 Author Share Posted October 23, 2005 For all you photo experts out there (including wannabes - bear in mind that photo expertise is not a closed shop like medicine). Please review the following links. I believe anyone who can illustrate the aruments therein with photgraphic illustrations will be doing this investigation a great sevice. I think I left out the following link from my prvious post. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...7f1d1a6a3987e38 In any event I think it would be very helpful if the photo experts on this forum (of whoom we are all very proud) could follow up on the issues being raised by Charles Wallace on Alt. Assassination and Alt. Conspiracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 (edited) For all you photo experts out there (including wannabes - bear in mind that photo expertise is not a closed shop like medicine). Please review the following links. I believe anyone who can illustrate the aruments therein with photgraphic illustrations will be doing this investigation a great sevice. I think I left out the following link from my prvious post. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...7f1d1a6a3987e38 In any event I think it would be very helpful if the photo experts on this forum (of whoom we are all very proud) could follow up on the issues being raised by Charles Wallace on Alt. Assassination and Alt. Conspiracy. Gee, if I answer, will it be thought I consider myself an expert? Bugger it, expert or not (wannabee is good) it is a field I'm interested in. I looked at the photos I could find and unfortunately could only see what Wallace was getting at but with no clarity to be able to offer any opinion axcept to say 'the blob of different shading has characteristics attriubuted to Oswald.' Has anyone got a good res pic? Edited October 23, 2005 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted October 23, 2005 Author Share Posted October 23, 2005 Gee, if I answer, will it be thought I consider myself an expert? Yes, we will assume you claim or aspire SOME degree of expertise. Whether you are ultimately found to be an expert could take 50 years or more to resolved. Bugger it, expert or not (wannabee is good) it is a field I'm interested in. Welcome to the club (which btw has no buggery section). I looked at the photos I could find and unfortunately could only see what Wallace was getting at. Does thi mean it appears to you that Wallace may be on to something? but with no clarity to be able to offer any opinion axcept to say 'the blob of different shading has characteristics attriubuted to Oswald.' Has anyone got a good res pic? I sincerely hope you get your pics, John. In the meantime I would say that at this point, your expert opinion, which states that 'the blob of different shading has characteristics attriubuted to Oswald.' must be considered quite a nice piece of evidence for Lee Oswald's defense. Has anyone got a good res pic? 'll bet someone on this forum has good pictures (David Healy, how about making yourself useful for a change?) Has anyone got a good res pic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynne Foster Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 This photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald is what you call, exculpatory evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 (edited) This is the link to Charles original post. Original post by Charles: Edited October 23, 2005 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted October 23, 2005 Author Share Posted October 23, 2005 This photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald is what you call, exculpatory evidence. For those who may not be aware, Charles Wallace has dropped some interesting -sounding bombs/firecrackers on alt. assassination and alt.conspiracy. If I understand him correctly, Wallace is not talking about the long discredited theory that Lee Oswald was Lovelady in the Altgens photo. Instead, Wallace is saying that there is indepencent photo evidence to corroborate Lee's statement to Will Fritz, that he was "out frint with Bill Shelley" when the excitement occurred. Lynne, with all due respect I think you may be referring to a theory that is quite different to Wallace's. Most JFK researchers have accepted that the man who looks like Lee oswald in the Altgens photo (the one attached to your link) is really Billy Lovelady. This is one area where the HSCA, mainly through the work of Robert Groden, if I'm not mistaken, actually hit the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 Does this mean it appears to you that Wallace may be on to something? Hi, Ray. 50 years! @#$ ('Bugger it' is australiana used sometimes when something stupid is done.) Wallace may be on to something. Here is frame from early in Wiegman film. The TSBD entrance occurs very briefly at two separate pan shots. Could you check with Wallace and see if it is the figure he means and if so where a better one may be had? as you can see: a blob. but with v neck shirt over white t shirt.tallish white male. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 (edited) The man at the top of the steps in the Wiegman frame shown on p. 373 of POTP appears to be Lovelady. To his left in the Wiegman frame is the same man in shirtsleeves holding his arms up to shield his eyes from the sun who is beside him in Altgens. In front of them, one step below, is a woman shielding her eyes from the sun, in both Altgens and the Wiegman frame. The seeming difference in Lovelady's position between Altgens and Wiegman is simply a matter of perspective. As is clear in Wiegman, Lovelady did not have his shoulder next to the wall as one might assume by looking at Altgens. Bear in mind that the cameras were taking their pictures of the doorway from opposite directions. Edited October 24, 2005 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 (edited) Ron, I suppose you mean Altgens? Where may one find "p373 of POTP"? Edited October 24, 2005 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 (edited) Ron, I suppose you mean Altgens?Where may one find "p373 of POTP"? John, Yes, I meant Altgens (taken at Z255). I'll edit the post. I don't know if Wiegman frames such as the one in POTP are available online. Ron Oops, I take my last statement back. The Wiegman frame on p. 373 of POTP is the frame you just posted (Post #8). Ron Edited October 24, 2005 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 (edited) The questions of the difference between the Wiegman and the Altgens photos, frames, are not new....I posted this information and a good discussion followed over a year ago on jfkresearch.....I still question the differences.. I once read, years ago, and of course now I have no idea of where, that the Altgens had been doctored, and that ,that altering,when proven would prove that Lee Harvey Oswald, was where he said he was standing..out front with Bill Shelley as stated to Will Fritz..that bit of information I never forgot. I thought I had a bit more information saved, but at present this is all I could find..If I do I will post such..B.. David Wiegman: "We were in that straight-a-way heading down to what I now know as the Book Depository, and I heard the first report and I thought like every body that it was a good size firecracker---a cherry bomb .Then when I heard the second one, the adrenaline really started pumping because there was a reaction in the motorcade, I was sitting on the edge of the (car door) frame,which I sometimes did. I keenly remember right after the incident that my feet were on the ground during one of the reports. I don't think I was fast enough to react to the second, but I think on the third one I was running. The car had slowed down enough for me to jump out. I swung my leg over and jumped while the car was still moving, but it was very slow. I jumped and I remember running and I remember the third shot. When I got out I knew I better get around the corner. The car was stopping. I'd better run around there and see what was happening. I knew the reaction was to run forward. I'd done this before in other motorcades because a lot of times the President will stop and do something. He might just shake a hand. He might look at a sign. So your doing no good sitting in your car, and you can always retrieve your car as it goes by....It was a technique I've used and I've gotten some good pictures that way. That may have been built in to get out and run and get up there and see what the heck's happening . The motorcade has stopped, plus you heard a report I don't think I thought on the first or second ( shot ), but when the third one went off, I really thought I felt the compression on my face. ----I really thought I felt it. The I thought "Somebody is shooting". The idea of turning on the camera, I don't know where that came from. Iv'e turned in some real sloppy work over the years that went into editing because I believed that sometimes your not photographing what's happening as much as the moment. It's a slice of time. And something told me, "hey look, what have I got to lose. I've got a full spring and just turn it on." I can't stop and plant my feet, so I put it against my chest because you can't run with a Filmo up to your eyes. So I just slid i tdown under my chin and looked forward and ran as fast as I could and took in everything I could." Telephone interview Wiegman, 3/11/89..P.O.T.P...Trask.. pages 371-372. .......................... He was in the Press car 1."the reel car" the first with photographers aboard..A yellow 1964 Chev.Impala convertible. The President's Lincoln..The Queen Mary.SS...L.B.Js ... SS..The Bell Telephone press pool car ..then the Press #1 Car.. (Wiegman's). Along with Atkins,Craven,John Hoefen,( Wiegman's sound man..Front seat driving a Texas Ranger..then Cleve Ryan then Wiegman on the passenger seat in the sixth car behind the President.. He was carrying a Filmo movie camera,used no handle, shot with left eye finders on left side of camera.Wide angle lens, He thought he used a 10mm.that day.. Worked for NBC..TV cameraman..White House attachment every day for 8 years..37 years old.. ......................... "It would appear through careful analysis of this film, and aided in research done by Richard Sprague and Gary Mack ,on the timing of the sequence, that Wiegman began filming A LITTLE OVER THREE SECONDS:.... prior to the President BEING HIT IN THE HEAD". Gary Mack 's,"Coverups!"..9/1982..p.2-5...9/1985, p.1-2.. Letter Richard Sprague to Robert Cuttler, 10/31/1982. .......................... "Wiegman probably first pressed his camera trigger just after the second shot."..clip.."begins as Wiegman's car is approaching the TSDB, while the telephone car infront begins making the left hand turn.".." shows various spectators on the steps of the Book Depository as well as others on the sidewalk..Many are looking forwards towards the presidential vehicle while some are gazing back at the vehincles coming in their direction." .Trask..p373 ....... In the film we see, the film begins with a panning of the front entrance of the TSBD,swings to the left, then back to the right, he then was on his way to the knoll,and behind the fence...see. the film at below...click, Wiegman, then when page loads, click top right hand corner button....ta da.. http://www.jfk-online.com/films.html ................................. We have Wiegman capturing the TSBD entrance approximately "A little over three seconds" prior to the President being hit in head."..see above..Sprague..Mack.. ........................ From: "Murder In Dealey Plaza"..Dr.James Fetzer.. P.34...ALTGENS... "An Associated Press photographer ,James Altgens, has stationed himself at a vantage point on Elm Street across from the Texas School Book Depository Building to photograph the Presidential motorcade as it passes through Dealey Plaza and heads onto the Stemmons Freeway. Altgens captures the President on film in a now-famous shot taken WITHIN TWO SECONDS of the impact of the bullet that STRIKES J.F.K's HEAD."...... And the controversy begins about whom, L.H.O or Lovelady is pictured in his shot....in the entrance of the T.S.B.D... I am seeing niether..I see a dark complexioned with a white shirt on standing where Lovelady or Oswald were suppose to be standing...in Wiegman..?? ............................. Now how can this be??? If Wiegman's frame of the TSBD entrance...taken approximately THREE SECONDS before the President is hit in the head by a bullet.. And Altgen's photo shows the entrance of the TSBD...taken approx.TWO SECONDS before the President is hit in the head by the same shot......... Then is Altgens doctored..?????....as the people in the entrance way are not similar, not even close.. They could not move in that one second to such a degree. We have discussed before the possibility of Altgen's being altered, now please have a read, of all, and see the film clip and comparison below, of the TSBD Entrance Altgens...approx.TWO Seconds before the shot to the head... then Wiegmans..approx THREE Seconds before the shot to the head.??......Bernice Moore ................................. B Edited October 24, 2005 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Thanks Bernice for that wiegman frame: Below is a Couch frame showing the "two kids" who were standing in front of the TSBD in wiegman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 (edited) In the last frames in which the TSBD entrance is seen in the Towner film, the lovelady/oswald figure does not appear to be there yet. The limo at this point has just passed in front of the entrance. Is a good quality cap available? Edited October 24, 2005 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted October 24, 2005 Author Share Posted October 24, 2005 In the last frames in which the TSBD entrance is seen in the Towner film, the lovelady/oswald figure does not appear to be there yet. The limo at this point has just passed in front of the entrance. Is a good quality cap available? John I am still gratefully digesting your responses to this thread, and looking forward to anything and everything you contribute in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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