Jim Garrison and the Cuban Operation

[Lynne Foster]

...Stephen, do you still hold that Ferrie made his November 22 trip because he was interested in purchasing a skating rink?... I find it odd that Ferrie wouldn't bother to bring this interest up with him. Also, as Mellen points out, Ferrie later dropped this aspect of his story.

Have any of the people who take Ferrie's involvement in the assassination for granted, including Professor Mellen and Jim Garrison, ever tried to explain why Ferrie was suddenly so concerned that Oswald had his library card? If Ferrie had foreknowledge of a plot involving Oswald, he wouldn't have been scrambling to regain the card after the assassination.

T.C.

If he had remembered to cover up his tracks, you would be correct.

And if Jim Garrison had appropriately followed up, if that had been his interest, he would have started to investigate the assassination of John F. Kennedy in 1963.

[Tim Carroll]

...Stephen, do you still hold that Ferrie made his November 22 trip because he was interested in purchasing a skating rink?... I find it odd that Ferrie wouldn't bother to bring this interest up with him. Also, as Mellen points out, Ferrie later dropped this aspect of his story.

Have any of the people who take Ferrie's involvement in the assassination for granted, including Professor Mellen and Jim Garrison, ever tried to explain why Ferrie was suddenly so concerned that Oswald had his library card? If Ferrie had foreknowledge of a plot involving Oswald, he wouldn't have been scrambling to regain the card after the assassination.

Probably because if Oswald ever had Ferrie's card in the first place (which I am not sure of), Ferrie would have forgotten about it. It is a pretty minor detail, you must admit. Jack Martin had to start circulating this story before Ferrie grew so concerned. It wasn't just something that came to his mind after he heard that Oswald had allegedly assassinated the president.

I don't for a moment admit that the library card and the activities of David Ferrie to recover it are a "minor detail." The use of a public telephone at an ice skating rink is to be deemed significant but visits to people like Oswald's landlady to recover the library card aren't? So what is Owen saying? Jack Martin created Ferrie's library card anxiety? That there was an assassination planned out involving both Ferrie and Oswald, but something Martin did suddenly raised concern? Despite all the planning, Ferrie forgot about the card until just after the shooting, and then suddenly realized the significance? Or is Owen trying to claim that Ferrie didn't know of Oswald's involvement until after he "heard that Oswald had allegedly assassinated the president?" It doesn't make sense.

T.C.

Edited December 17, 2005 by Tim Carroll

[Owen Parsons]

...Stephen, do you still hold that Ferrie made his November 22 trip because he was interested in purchasing a skating rink?... I find it odd that Ferrie wouldn't bother to bring this interest up with him. Also, as Mellen points out, Ferrie later dropped this aspect of his story.

Have any of the people who take Ferrie's involvement in the assassination for granted, including Professor Mellen and Jim Garrison, ever tried to explain why Ferrie was suddenly so concerned that Oswald had his library card? If Ferrie had foreknowledge of a plot involving Oswald, he wouldn't have been scrambling to regain the card after the assassination.

Probably because if Oswald ever had Ferrie's card in the first place (which I am not sure of), Ferrie would have forgotten about it. It is a pretty minor detail, you must admit. Jack Martin had to start circulating this story before Ferrie grew so concerned. It wasn't just something that came to his mind after he heard that Oswald had allegedly assassinated the president.

I don't for a moment admit that the library card and the activities of David Ferrie to recover it are a "minor detail." The use of a public telephone at an ice skating rink is to be deemed significant but visits to people like Oswald's landlady to recover the library card aren't? So what is Owen saying? Jack Martin created Ferrie's library card anxiety? That there was an assassination planned out involving both Ferrie and Oswald, but something Martin did suddenly raised concern? Despite all the planning, Ferrie forgot about the card until just after the shooting, and then suddenly realized the significance? Or is Owen trying to claim that Ferrie didn't know of Oswald's involvement until after he "heard that Oswald had allegedly assassinated the president?" It doesn't make sense.

T.C.

The library card itself would be a minor detail, Ferrie's activities to recover it aren't. The library card wouldn't be significant to Ferrie (if it ever existed) during the time leading up to the assassination because it is a small item that wasn't involved in the assassination planning (and would have to have been loaned to Oswald while he was in the CAP, during the 1950's, since Ferrie had a more recent card on hand). Its a detail that anyone could easily forget. Ferrie's getting so worked up about it (after Martin started spreading the library card story; this wasn't something that just occured to Ferrie) is what I find strange. And the use of the public telephone and his odd behavior around Rolland take on more significance because they run counter to Ferrie's own story of his activities in the ice rink.

Also, I am not saying that Ferrie didn't know of Oswald's involvement until after he heard of the assassination; I am simply setting up the scenario for Ferrie's innocence, which I think should be fairly obvious. You are only making this difficult for yourself.

Edited December 17, 2005 by Owen Parsons

[Gerry Hemming]

Stephen,

But I base this not on a few books or websites. I base it on obtaining most of the documents of his investigation, and on personal interviews with some of those involved. You must certainly agree that such primary sources are more compelling than most books or websites.

I recently ran across one of those raw FBI files in which the memo said that there had been allegations that Jack Ruby was running drugs through the training camp near Lake Ponchatrain in the summer of 1963. In the same memo I think it was, it was also alleged that Lee Harvey Oswald sometimes used the alias, Tom Kane.

Have you ever heard of these allegations before?

Steve Thomas

---------------------------

There NEVER was a "Training Camp" near Lake Ponchartrain. We traveled to NO during early 1962, [in combination with CIA assassin Larry laBorde - ex-CIA subchaser "Tejana II" engineer] we did do a survey of the "operational area"; which included the use of a "Seminary" as a base of Ops, and the local mental Hospital as an "Isolation" briefing/debriefing and prepping of "Operators".

CIA Stuckey [who had recently been transferred by Philipps up from Chile] blew this operation with a bunch of "fantasy-land stories" -- about PT-Boat raiders, and commando training camps. Jim Buchanan called me just after we had set up our operations at No Name Key [June 1962] -- and queried me on the Times Picayune or States Item stories -- which I explained was total horsexxxx. Jim then stated that his editor at the Miami Herald was ordering him to "run-the-story" anyway !!

I have repeatedly explained [in other postings] that the McLaney site was NOT a training camp, and that nobody in his brother Mike's element even considered any type of training. They already had a sufficient number of combat veterans dedicated to the "task-at-hand" !!

Chairs,

GPH

__________________

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

---------------------------

There NEVER was a "Training Camp" near Lake Ponchartrain.

__________________

E. HOWARD HUJNT: "Nino Diaz had been dusted off, and together with a hundred untrained followers, sent to the CIA's amphibious base on Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana." [GIVE US THIS DAY, p156]

"During the years 1960, 1961, 1962, no information was obtained from sources regarding a camp where guerrilla training was given to Cuban exiles in the Lake Pontchartrain area. The only information contained in the files of the New Orleans Office regarding a training camp for Cuban exiles in the New Orleans area is contained in a New Orleans letter to the Bureau, dated March 23, 1961, in the case captioned "Clip" Bufile 105-89923, New Orleans file 105-1446 which sets forth information that (deleted) appeared at the New Orleans office on March 13, 1961 and identified himself as a security officer in charge of an operation under the caption "CLIP." (Deleted) located at the Belle Chasse Ammunition Depot. He advised there were approximately 140 to 200 Cubans located at that base undergoing expert training in underwater demolition use of sabotage techniques and combat techniques. (Deleted) Information was also set forth in this communication that on March 18, 1961, (deleted) who identified themselves as investigators for the CIA contacted (deleted) and furnished data relative to the nature of their operation. He also furnished information that (deleted)." [FBI 62-109060-4759] 1967

"Meantime, Executive Assistant DA Alvin V. Oser was looking for a target range across and north of Lake Pontchartrain which Oswald might have used for target practice. In the process, he found the locations of two training camps where soldiers were being trained in 1962 for a second Cuban invasion. He also came across a third training camp near Belle Chasse, La., by the Naval Air Station on the other side of the Mississippi River." ROSEMARY JAMES/JACK WARDLAW - PLOT OR POLITICS page 49.

"A recently published booklet concerning the Garrison case and entitled Plot or Politics? was written by States-Item reporters Rosemary James and Jack Wardlaw. The following appears on page 49: 'Meanwhile, Executive Assistant DA Alvin Oser...came a across a third training camp near Belle Chasse, Louisiana." DONOVAN PRATT:CIA's R&A in a Memorandum to C/WH/COG (Cuban Operation Group) titled "Garrison Investigation: Belle Chasse Training Camp" October 26, 1967. In response, David Atlee Phillips authored the following:

WH/C 67-336

MEMORANDUM FOR: Chief, CI/R & A

SUBJECT: Garrison Investigation: Belle Chasse Training Camp

REFERENCE: CI/ R & A Memorandum Dated October 26, 1967

1. Listed below us the information pertaining to the Belle Chasse training camp which was requested in reference memorandum.

a. The training site was activated on February 18, 1961 and the first group of trainees arrived on February 18, 1961.

b. The site was located eight miles from New Orleans at the U.S. Naval Ammunition Depot which had been inactive for five years.

c. The site covered 3,500 acres of marshlands adjoining the Mississippi River. The depot consisted of ammunition magazines storage areas, warehouses, various frame and brick buildings, many miles of interlocking railroad tracks and both hard surface and improved roads and the entire site was enclosed by a chain link fence. Since much of the terrain was unaccessible and unsuitable for training purposes, due to the marshy ground and poisonous reptiles, a limited area was used for actual training purposes. This area was located where the activity could neither be heard no observed.

The base closed on April 21, 1961, and the training site was completely sterilized by Base and cleared Navy personnel after all demolition, ammunition, ordnance items, and field equipment was sterilized and air-lifted to a Midwest depot. Material on loan from the military was restored to original condition and returned to the appropriate military component.

e. Approximately 300 Cubans were trained at the site over a six week period. The only known list of trainees which was available at Headquarters has not been located to date. A search has been initiated for this list.

f. The training consisted of weapons firing, demolition, guerilla warfare, communications, UDT, etc. One group was trained as a strike force assault battalion and was sent to Guatemala on March 22, 1961, to join the Bay of Pigs invasion strike force.

g. The training camp location never came to public knowledge through press media. However, the New York Times and New Orleans radio and television stations reported that a Cuban training camp was located outside of New Orleans, according to information emanating from Miami. Inquiries were directed to high level military and Louisiana officials, who denied knowledge of such a camp and the site was not identified. Subsequent to the above publicity, the representative of a leading T.V. station appeared at the main gate of the installation and requested permission to enter and take pictures. Naval authorities denied permission and there were no further inquiries. The actual training site was quite some distance from the main gates of the depot which was identified by an inscription cut into the concrete 'U.S. Naval Ammunition Depot.' Whether the T.V. representative was trying to identify the location of the rumored training site or simply take pictures of a deactivated historical landmark for posterity, is not known.

h. The training camp was entirely Agency controlled and the training was conducted by Agency personnel.

2. During the initial phase of activation, the depot was sterilized to avoid any indication of government interest and to prevent disclosure of actual physical location of training camp to newly assigned trainees. For example, all U.S. Navy references on boxcars, buildings, etc. were painted out or destroyed. Although the first group of trainees transferred to the base from Florida knew they were going to an abandoned ammunition depot located near New Orleans, maximum precautions were taken to insure that the site location could not be pinpointed while the trainees were being transported from the airport to the camp. Despite all precautions, one incident occurred that is significant in view of the recent publication naming the Belle Chasse camp. One night, a group of trainees arriving at the Moisant Airport from Miami, were observed by Orlando Piedra, the former Chief of the Bureau of Investigation during the Batista regime. Piedra obtained the license numbers of the rental vehicles used for transporting the trainees to the camp. His license number was likewise observed by our security officer at the scene. Piedra, who is one of the individuals included in the CI R&A memorandum dated September 15, 1967 (page 3 -item 21), and memorandum #5 (paragraph 4-J) may be the individual who provided the information contained in the recent publication. In any event, it would be surprising indeed of some of the 300 trainees involved have not discussed their training activities in detail over the past six years. With the clue that the camp was located at an abandoned Navy ammunition depot outside New Orleans, a long-time resident such as Piedra, Arcacha Smith, Fowler, or LaBorde, would eventually be able to narrow down the location despite the extreme security precautions that were in effect during the training period. Although only the commanding officers of the ammunition depot and Naval Air Station were knowledgeable of the activities on the grounds, an enterprising reporter or investigator could probably surface other corroborating bits of information which would help identify the training site. For example, despite the fact the majority of supplies and equipment was procured through Navy facilities, certain items were necessarily purchased on the local market, thereby producing a sudden influx of cash in an area that had been dormant for five years. In any event, although the Garrison investigation may eventually lead to identifying the site as a government installation, there has never been any evidence or publicity identifying the Agency as the actual operators of the training camp.

3. CI/R&A may wish to discuss further aspects of the Belle Chasse training camp with Mr. (Deleted) former Base Chief, and Mr. (Deleted) former Security Officer, who are presently assigned to Headquarters. Mr. (Deleted) can be reached at this SOD office and Mr. (Deleted) can be reached at OS/SRS.

Signed DAVID PHILLIPS Chief, WH/COG

DDP/WH/COG/CICS/N. Gratz:ear

Distribution:

Orig & 1 - Addressee

1- WH/Reg/C

1 - C/WH/COG

1 - WH/COG/CICS

1- Originator

[CIA OGC 67-2061]

From Weberman's site:

"HEMMING'S TRAINING CAMP AUGUST 1962

The CIA stated: "New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison has charged that Cuban training activities at Lake Pontchartrain were Agency sponsored. While this statement is false, the Cuban Revolutionary Front (deleted) later became the Cuban Revolutionary Council (deleted)." [CIA OS Rasco Memo 12.14.67] HEMMING 1994: "Part of my cadre had operations in the Covington, Louisiana area, near Lake Pontchartrain, [where OSWALD grew up]. It was set up unofficially. We had scattered facilities at Mandeville, Houma, La Combe and Algiers. Howard K. Davis was there. No Name Key was our next training facility." HEMMING convinced New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison that David Ferrie was at this camp. In a memorandum to William C. Sullivan, William A. Branigan advised: "Garrison alleged David Ferrie was a member of a group of anti-Castro Cubans who were located in 1961 and 1962 at Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana (deleted). Nothing in Bureau files to indicate David Ferrie connected with this (deleted)." [FBI 109060-4634]."

[Stephen Roy]

Garrison was just a cover up artist who protected Mafia interests and concealed the truth to protect illegalities and David Ferrie was also a sleazy, Carlos Marcello, Mafia asset.

I don't even understand why anybody would bother to write a book about these criminals...I don't think you will find the truth about them in any document -criminals don't document their criminal activity.

OK: Riddle me this, Batman: If Garrison was trying to cover-up for Marcello, why were his first three targets Dean Adams Andrews Jr, who once worked for Marcello, David William Ferrie, who worked for Marcello's attorney on the Marcello deportation, and William Guy Banister, who also worked on the Marcello deportation? Not to mention Morris Brownlee, who worked for Gill, and a few others? Explain this, Sherlock.

Why would Garrison cover for Marcello by focusing on three or more people who can be clearly associated with him?

Stephen, I did warn you what the likely outcome would be about ten posts back. Lynne, by virtue of visiting a few websites, and reading a couple conspiracy books knows more about this subject than all the seasoned researchers on this forum put together. Leave her to wallow in her own crapullance. Wouldnt mind the juicy Garrison nugget though. Reguards, Steve.

You be right. I was a idiot.

Lemme consider dropping the nugget. I was going to save it for the book, but maybe...

Stephen,

I recently ran across one of those raw FBI files in which the memo said that there had been allegations that Jack Ruby was running drugs through the training camp near Lake Ponchatrain in the summer of 1963. In the same memo I think it was, it was also alleged that Lee Harvey Oswald sometimes used the alias, Tom Kane.

Have you ever heard of these allegations before?

Steve Thomas

I've heard that one, but it's not fresh in my memory. I probably saw the same document. But I have spoken with someone who was there, but he insists that it was just an MDC project, 20 Cubans, no NorteAmericanos. Jury is still out for me.

[Stephen Roy]

Also, Stephen, do you still hold that Ferrie made his November 22 trip because he was interested in purchasing a skating rink? I doubt this, as Rowland Rolland, the president of the rink, only recalled Ferrie approaching him and mentioning his name a few times, in addition to the incessant phone activity (which I'm sure you are aware of). I find it odd that Ferrie wouldn't bother to bring this interest up with him. Also, as Mellen points out, Ferrie later dropped this aspect of his story.

I have some new info about that, which involves some pre-assassination interest in a rink and a different man. I spoke with both the boys who made the trip, and they insist that Ferrie did discuss operating a rink with somebody at Winterland, but they think it may have been the manager on duty before Rolland arrived. They insist that all three men skated initially but Ferrie gave up because he was "hopeless", ate a sandwich and made a few calls. Rolland did arrive late. They deny that he tried to draw attention to himself. It is enlightening, talking to the actual people involved. I don't have the tapes handy, but they say things like: "I was THERE. It was a damn trip. Dave did nothing suspicious, I would have noticed if he did. People have elevated a simple trip with some legal business and a joyride to something sinister." I am NOT saying this is the final word on it! People have warned me that "Ferrie's friends are all a bunch of lairs", but you don't get that impression talking to them. I'm just going to tell "both" sides of it in the book.

[Stephen Roy]

If anybody is interested, I heard a sketchy account of this from a person VERY close to Ferrie who would only talk to me on a deep pledge of anonymity. I do not necessarily endorse the account, but it seems to explain the anxiety and tie up that loose end.

If anybody is interested, I heard a sketchy account of this from a person VERY close to Ferrie who would only talk to me on a deep pledge of anonymity. I do not necessarily endorse the account, but it seems to explain the anxiety and tie up that loose end.

This post popped up out of sequence. I was referring to the library card issue.

[Owen Parsons]

Also, Stephen, do you still hold that Ferrie made his November 22 trip because he was interested in purchasing a skating rink? I doubt this, as Rowland Rolland, the president of the rink, only recalled Ferrie approaching him and mentioning his name a few times, in addition to the incessant phone activity (which I'm sure you are aware of). I find it odd that Ferrie wouldn't bother to bring this interest up with him. Also, as Mellen points out, Ferrie later dropped this aspect of his story.

I have some new info about that, which involves some pre-assassination interest in a rink and a different man. I spoke with both the boys who made the trip, and they insist that Ferrie did discuss operating a rink with somebody at Winterland, but they think it may have been the manager on duty before Rolland arrived. They insist that all three men skated initially but Ferrie gave up because he was "hopeless", ate a sandwich and made a few calls. Rolland did arrive late. They deny that he tried to draw attention to himself. It is enlightening, talking to the actual people involved. I don't have the tapes handy, but they say things like: "I was THERE. It was a damn trip. Dave did nothing suspicious, I would have noticed if he did. People have elevated a simple trip with some legal business and a joyride to something sinister." I am NOT saying this is the final word on it! People have warned me that "Ferrie's friends are all a bunch of lairs", but you don't get that impression talking to them. I'm just going to tell "both" sides of it in the book.

I think there is some reason to doubt the veracity of Ferrie's friends, seeing as how they initially couldn't keep their stories straight as to who proposed the trip and when, whether there were weapons in the car or not, and its exact purpose. I certainly think their accounts should be presented though.

As for Mr. Rolland, he may have arrived late, but Ferrie apparently didn't mention anything about opening an ice rink in his call to him a week prior. And if Ferrie was genuinely interested in purchasing a skating rink, I find it odd that he would say nothing of this during the five times he came up to Mr. Rolland to mention his name and make his presence known (which I think qualifies as "draw[ing] attention to himself" and comes from a source who was certainly "involved" and seems to have no ulterior motives, unlike Ferrie's friends). Ferrie's friends are either very much mistaken or just plain untruthful if they insist that Rolland was probably not the one Ferrie allegedly talked to about his rink purchasing plans. Ferrie, in his FBI interview of the 25th, very close to the incident, states that it was Rolland that he had a lengthy conversation with about the "cost of installation and operation of the rink" (which is not born out by Rolland himself). Apparently Ferrie realized this story wouldn't be corroborated by Rolland and later dropped the rink purchasing aspect of his tale, stating that he "just had the urge to go ice skating" in his 1967 NODA interview. Also, Rolland may not have have been monitoring Ferrie's activities at all times, but he did testify that Ferrie "did not buy a ticket of admission for skating purposes," which would appear to rule out skating activity.

I'd like to hear this "sketchy account" re: the library card.

Edited December 18, 2005 by Owen Parsons

[Steve Thomas]

Stephen,

I've heard that one, but it's not fresh in my memory. I probably saw the same document. But I have spoken with someone who was there, but he insists that it was just an MDC project, 20 Cubans, no NorteAmericanos. Jury is still out for me.

Thank you. It was actually the MDC camp I had in mind. Ruby went to New Orleans in June of '63?

I can't remember who Ruby was talking to after he was arrested when he said, 'Theyre going to find out about New Orleans, they're going to find out about the guns, they're going to find out about everything." When asked if their was anyone who could hurt him, Ruby replied, "Davis."

I've been wondering if he could have been referring to Richard Rudolph Davis.

Steve Thomas

[Stephen Roy]

I think there is some reason to doubt the veracity of Ferrie's friends, seeing as how they initially couldn't keep their stories straight as to who proposed the trip and when, whether there were weapons in the car or not, and its exact purpose. I certainly think their accounts should be presented though.

As for Mr. Rolland, he may have arrived late, but Ferrie apparently didn't mention anything about opening an ice rink in his call to him a week prior. And if Ferrie was genuinely interested in purchasing a skating rink, I find it odd that he would say nothing of this during the five times he came up to Mr. Rolland to mention his name and make his presence known (which I think qualifies as "draw[ing] attention to himself" and comes from a source who was certainly "involved" and seems to have no ulterior motives, unlike Ferrie's friends). Ferrie's friends are either very much mistaken or just plain untruthful if they insist that Rolland was probably not the one Ferrie allegedly talked to about his rink purchasing plans. Ferrie, in his FBI interview of the 25th, very close to the incident, states that it was Rolland that he had a lengthy conversation with about the "cost of installation and operation of the rink" (which is not born out by Rolland himself). Apparently Ferrie realized this story wouldn't be corroborated by Rolland and later dropped the rink purchasing aspect of his tale, stating that he "just had the urge to go ice skating" in his 1967 NODA interview. Also, Rolland may not have have been monitoring Ferrie's activities at all times, but he did testify that Ferrie "did not buy a ticket of admission for skating purposes," which would appear to rule out skating activity.

When you talk to them, you don't get the impression of lying. One of them was remarkably candid about all sorts of embarrassing things, and he agrees with Garrison that there was a conspiracy at high levels, but he thinks the only way his close friend could have been a part of it was to completely fool him, and he doubts that. Why, 40 years later, with no real legal complications, would they lie about this one thing? If there were something suspicious on the trip, they could make a bundle with a book.

As for guns, both told me there were no guns, but that there had been a separate hunting trip around that time. Mellen quotes Beaubouef as saying that there were guns but that they were afraid to admit it. I hope to follow up on this.

As for purpose, as one put it, a trip is not always for one reason. I don't really see much conflict. "A" trip had been discussed as far back as a month or so. None were sure exactly when it would be. The end of the Marcello trial made it possible. The need to transact legal business with a Gill client in Vinton made it almost imperative. It seemed apparent on about the 20th that the trial would soon end, and tentative plans were made. On the 22nd, they decided to go. Part business, part visiting relatives, part drinking and driving, etc., and part looking at ice rinks as a business venture. (There was apparently some pre-assassination interest in one particular rink venture. And remember that Ferrie and Beaubouef had capital and DID invest in a business together just a few weeks later.) In one sense, it seems a little odd, but when I think back to some of my trips, I can see his point.

What purpose would Ferrie have had for establishing his presence there on Saturday November 23 from 3:30-5:30pm? Russo claimed the trip was to form an alibi for the assassination, not the day after.

They had originally planned to go to a rink in Baton Rouge, which was closed. Then they tried Winterland. And one of the boys said that, when they got there, Ferrie talked for about 5 minutes with the "manager". But Ferrie did mention Rolland by name, so it becomes a he said-he said.

With respect to Rolland, he seemed very eager to please Garrison. He said that Ferrie did not don skates, then admitted that he had not been there when Ferrie arrived (and his friends say he tried skating). He said Ferrie stayed at the phone, but admitted that he was doing other things and did not watch him.

As I note, it is a he said (Rolland) vs they said (Ferrie, Beaubouef, Coffey). In numbers, it is 3 to 1. But again, when you talk to them it just seems like an ordinary trip. But I have spoken only to the boys, not Rolland. As they tell it, the trip went just as they said to authorities and Ferrie pretty much never left their sight.

I'd like to hear this "sketchy account" re: the library card.

Again, I'm just recounting it as it was told to me, not endorsing it.

First, as Ferrie's time is accounted for by the boys from about 4pm Friday through the weekend, it doesn't seem possible for him to have visited Garner on the night of the assassination, or until at least the night of Monday November 25.

The library card did not become a big issue until after Ferrie's death, but the friend remembered him mentioning it just after the assassination. He said Ferrie was called in by the FBI and Secret Service and questioned about Oswald, whom he said he did not know or recall. One of the two agencies asked about "one of his cards" that might have been found in Oswald's possessions, and he said he knew nothing about it. Then he contacted a CAP boy [presumably Voebel] who told him that Oswald had been in the Moisant squadron in the mid-50s and attended a party at Ferrie's home. Ferrie said he didn't remember him but worried that he might have been there and taken one of his cards.

That's the extent of what he remembers. Ferrie did contact Voebel, according to the FBI, and he passed Voebel's info back to the FBI. I speculate that this is when Ferrie looked to see if the authorities had found any card of his at Oswald's homes.

As I noted in another thread, the FBI/SS interest in a library card is directly attributable to Jack Martin, who said he based it on something he heard on TV. I'd consider the possibility that this is just Ferrie's "spin", but for the fact that Martin was the source of the allegation and there was no such card ever recorded in Oswald's possession.

So I'm following Ferrie on two tracks, two possibilites: One, that the prevailing wisdom about Ferrie is true, and Two, that it may not be.

[Owen Parsons]

When you talk to them, you don't get the impression of lying. One of them was remarkably candid about all sorts of embarrassing things, and he agrees with Garrison that there was a conspiracy at high levels, but he thinks the only way his close friend could have been a part of it was to completely fool him, and he doubts that. Why, 40 years later, with no real legal complications, would they lie about this one thing? If there were something suspicious on the trip, they could make a bundle with a book.

Loyalty to a friend? Self-preservation (I am not speaking of legal complications here)? I think there are some concerns that may override monetary gain.

As for guns, both told me there were no guns, but that there had been a separate hunting trip around that time. Mellen quotes Beaubouef as saying that there were guns but that they were afraid to admit it. I hope to follow up on this.

Beaubouef said that Ferrie told him to lie about the guns. Ferrie also told his godson, Morris Brownlee, that this attempt to lie about the guns was to keep the D.A. from getting anything on him.

As for purpose, as one put it, a trip is not always for one reason. I don't really see much conflict. "A" trip had been discussed as far back as a month or so. None were sure exactly when it would be. The end of the Marcello trial made it possible. The need to transact legal business with a Gill client in Vinton made it almost imperative. It seemed apparent on about the 20th that the trial would soon end, and tentative plans were made. On the 22nd, they decided to go. Part business, part visiting relatives, part drinking and driving, etc., and part looking at ice rinks as a business venture. (There was apparently some pre-assassination interest in one particular rink venture. And remember that Ferrie and Beaubouef had capital and DID invest in a business together just a few weeks later.) In one sense, it seems a little odd, but when I think back to some of my trips, I can see his point.

Coffee says the trip was planned two days in advance, that they left at 7 pm, and that it was Ferrie's idea. Beaubouef says it was planned in detail a week in advance, that the trio left at 4 pm, and that he came up with idea. These two stories are not all that reconciliable.

What purpose would Ferrie have had for establishing his presence there on Saturday November 23 from 3:30-5:30pm? Russo claimed the trip was to form an alibi for the assassination, not the day after.

I am perfectly aware of this, of course. Ferrie apparently had a change of alibi plans. I wonder why, however, Ferrie felt the need (after learning that he was being investigated) to drop his buddies off in New Orleans and then flee to Hammond in the first place. Are these the actions of an innocent man? What did Ferrie have to fear?

They had originally planned to go to a rink in Baton Rouge, which was closed. Then they tried Winterland. And one of the boys said that, when they got there, Ferrie talked for about 5 minutes with the "manager". But Ferrie did mention Rolland by name, so it becomes a he said-he said.

I think if any account of this alleged discussion is to be authoritative, it ought to be the one Ferrie gave to the FBI within days of the incident. And, as I noted before, Ferrie would later drop this aspect of his story totally.

With respect to Rolland, he seemed very eager to please Garrison. He said that Ferrie did not don skates, then admitted that he had not been there when Ferrie arrived (and his friends say he tried skating). He said Ferrie stayed at the phone, but admitted that he was doing other things and did not watch him.

This is not exactly accurate. Rolland doesn't base his conclusions on Ferrie's skating activities on what he saw, but rather on the fact that Ferrie did not buy a ticket for that purpose, a thing Rolland would be in a position to know. I don't know what you're point is about Rolland not watching Ferrie at all times. When Rolland was watching Ferrie, he was far more often than not on the phone.

First, as Ferrie's time is accounted for by the boys from about 4pm Friday through the weekend, it doesn't seem possible for him to have visited Garner on the night of the assassination, or until at least the night of Monday November 25.

I agree with you here. I think Garner was probably mistaken about the date.

The library card did not become a big issue until after Ferrie's death, but the friend remembered him mentioning it just after the assassination. He said Ferrie was called in by the FBI and Secret Service and questioned about Oswald, whom he said he did not know or recall. One of the two agencies asked about "one of his cards" that might have been found in Oswald's possessions, and he said he knew nothing about it. Then he contacted a CAP boy [presumably Voebel] who told him that Oswald had been in the Moisant squadron in the mid-50s and attended a party at Ferrie's home. Ferrie said he didn't remember him but worried that he might have been there and taken one of his cards.

That's the extent of what he remembers. Ferrie did contact Voebel, according to the FBI, and he passed Voebel's info back to the FBI. I speculate that this is when Ferrie looked to see if the authorities had found any card of his at Oswald's homes.

As I noted in another thread, the FBI/SS interest in a library card is directly attributable to Jack Martin, who said he based it on something he heard on TV. I'd consider the possibility that this is just Ferrie's "spin", but for the fact that Martin was the source of the allegation and there was no such card ever recorded in Oswald's possession.

So I'm following Ferrie on two tracks, two possibilites: One, that the prevailing wisdom about Ferrie is true, and Two, that it may not be.

The biggest problem with this account is that it has Ferrie first learning of the library card from the FBI. I think this is unlikely, as G. Wray Gill knew of this allegation and left a message to that effect at Ferrie's residence. Gill had been conversing with Ferrie over the phone prior to Ferrie's return to New Orleans and his FBI interview. Besides that, it still doesnt explain why Ferrie would get worked up over Oswald being in possession of his library card, even after the FBI had dropped the matter.

Edited December 22, 2005 by Owen Parsons

[Stephen Roy]

Thoughtful post, Owen. I'm on the run, but I thought I'd take a stab at this. I'm not asserting that the trip WAS innocent, just a Devil's Advocate view of an alternate interpretation, based on the accounts of the boys. As I haven't mastered the art of quoting in this forum, I'll italicize my comments.

When you talk to them, you don't get the impression of lying. One of them was remarkably candid about all sorts of embarrassing things, and he agrees with Garrison that there was a conspiracy at high levels, but he thinks the only way his close friend could have been a part of it was to completely fool him, and he doubts that. Why, 40 years later, with no real legal complications, would they lie about this one thing? If there were something suspicious on the trip, they could make a bundle with a book.

Loyalty to a friend? Self-preservation (I am not speaking of legal complications here)? I think there are some concerns that may override monetary gain.

I don't understand why the need to maintain a putuative lie all these years later, even while admitting other embarrasing non-relevant stuff. Like a jury seeing a witness or defendant in a courtroom, you get a different impression in person.

As for guns, both told me there were no guns, but that there had been a separate hunting trip around that time. Mellen quotes Beaubouef as saying that there were guns but that they were afraid to admit it. I hope to follow up on this.

Beaubouef said that Ferrie told him to lie about the guns. Ferrie also told his godson, Morris Brownlee, that this attempt to lie about the guns was to keep the D.A. from getting anything on him.

As noted, Al did not tell me this, but he apparently told Joan Mellen this. I can se why one might be skittish about admitting taking guns, given the circumstances.

As for purpose, as one put it, a trip is not always for one reason. I don't really see much conflict. "A" trip had been discussed as far back as a month or so. None were sure exactly when it would be. The end of the Marcello trial made it possible. The need to transact legal business with a Gill client in Vinton made it almost imperative. It seemed apparent on about the 20th that the trial would soon end, and tentative plans were made. On the 22nd, they decided to go. Part business, part visiting relatives, part drinking and driving, etc., and part looking at ice rinks as a business venture. (There was apparently some pre-assassination interest in one particular rink venture. And remember that Ferrie and Beaubouef had capital and DID invest in a business together just a few weeks later.) In one sense, it seems a little odd, but when I think back to some of my trips, I can see his point.

Coffee says the trip was planned two days in advance, that they left at 7 pm, and that it was Ferrie's idea. Beaubouef says it was planned in detail a week in advance, that the trio left at 4 pm, and that he came up with idea. These two stories are not all that reconciliable.

Ferrie and Beaubouef apparently did discuss a trip a few weeks earlier, and apparently a hunting trip was aborted due to Ferrie's work on the Marcello case. Coffey (correct spelling) was brought in, as he said, a couple of days before, somewhat related to some legal pressure from which he needed a break. Ferrie picked up Beuabouef at about 4pm, so the trip started for him then. Tehy went to Ferrie's apartment and packed a few things and watched assassination coverage. At about 6:45 they arrived a Coffey's house and called a few skating rinks, inclusding Rolland's. They left Coffey's at about 7pm, the start of the rip for him. They went to John Paul's Restaurant in Kenner for dinner and spoke with another pilot there. They actually hit the road between 9 and 9:15. Given that scenario, I can see the different recollections about when the trip started.

What purpose would Ferrie have had for establishing his presence there on Saturday November 23 from 3:30-5:30pm? Russo claimed the trip was to form an alibi for the assassination, not the day after.

I am perfectly aware of this, of course. Ferrie apparently had a change of alibi plans. I wonder why, however, Ferrie felt the need (after learning that he was being investigated) to drop his buddies off in New Orleans and then flee to Hammond in the first place. Are these the actions of an innocent man? What did Ferrie have to fear?

At about 9-9:30pm on Nov. 22, Ferrie's alibi was no longer an issue. I can see no purpose in establishing an alibi over 24 hours after the assassination.

As for Sunday night, the trio returned to Ferrie's home and went in at about 9:30. At around 11:30, Ferrie went to drop off Coffey. When he was returning home, he saw the police cars, drove to a grocery store and called home. "A cop" answered. Keep in mind that Ferrie had experienced a lot of grief from the cops when arrested two years previously on morals charges, and was terribly paranoid about them (I get into this in some detail in my book. Rightly or wrongly, it made him hate the cops.) Now in 1963, he and one of the boys were terribly worried about an embarrasing photo album, which the police did get. He called Gill and wanted him to accompany him when he presented himself to the cops. I resume that Gill didn't want to come out after midnight, so Ferrie spent the night at a friends and turned himself in with Gill the next day.

They had originally planned to go to a rink in Baton Rouge, which was closed. Then they tried Winterland. And one of the boys said that, when they got there, Ferrie talked for about 5 minutes with the "manager". But Ferrie did mention Rolland by name, so it becomes a he said-he said.

I think if any account of this alleged discussion is to be authoritative, it ought to be the one Ferrie gave to the FBI within days of the incident. And, as I noted before, Ferrie would later drop this aspect of his story totally.

If you read Ferrie's 12/15/66 questioning by Volz, he says repeatedly that he doesn't recall the details from 3 years earlier and refers Volz to his statements taken in 1963. He also volunteers to take a polygraph and/or sodium pentothal test.

With respect to Rolland, he seemed very eager to please Garrison. He said that Ferrie did not don skates, then admitted that he had not been there when Ferrie arrived (and his friends say he tried skating). He said Ferrie stayed at the phone, but admitted that he was doing other things and did not watch him.

This is not exactly accurate. Rolland doesn't base his conclusions on Ferrie's skating activities on what he saw, but rather on the fact that Ferrie did not buy a ticket for that purpose, a thing Rolland would be in a position to know. I don't know what you're point is about Rolland not watching Ferrie at all times. When Rolland was watching Ferrie, he was far more often than not on the phone.

This is a he said/they said. Beaubouef and Coffey both say he saketd briefly, and Rolland wasn't there at the time. I can't say if Rolland later checked to see if he had bought a ticket.

First, as Ferrie's time is accounted for by the boys from about 4pm Friday through the weekend, it doesn't seem possible for him to have visited Garner on the night of the assassination, or until at least the night of Monday November 25.

I agree with you here. I think Garner was probably mistaken about the date.

I just can't figure when on the night of the 22nd, he may have done this, and why about 5 or 6 people had no indication that he did. I have to guess that she might be mistaken.

The library card did not become a big issue until after Ferrie's death, but the friend remembered him mentioning it just after the assassination. He said Ferrie was called in by the FBI and Secret Service and questioned about Oswald, whom he said he did not know or recall. One of the two agencies asked about "one of his cards" that might have been found in Oswald's possessions, and he said he knew nothing about it. Then he contacted a CAP boy [presumably Voebel] who told him that Oswald had been in the Moisant squadron in the mid-50s and attended a party at Ferrie's home. Ferrie said he didn't remember him but worried that he might have been there and taken one of his cards.

That's the extent of what he remembers. Ferrie did contact Voebel, according to the FBI, and he passed Voebel's info back to the FBI. I speculate that this is when Ferrie looked to see if the authorities had found any card of his at Oswald's homes.

As I noted in another thread, the FBI/SS interest in a library card is directly attributable to Jack Martin, who said he based it on something he heard on TV. I'd consider the possibility that this is just Ferrie's "spin", but for the fact that Martin was the source of the allegation and there was no such card ever recorded in Oswald's possession.

So I'm following Ferrie on two tracks, two possibilites: One, that the prevailing wisdom about Ferrie is true, and Two, that it may not be.

The biggest problem with this account is that it has Ferrie first learning of the library card from the FBI. I think this is unlikely, as G. Wray Gill knew of this allegation and left a message to that effect at Ferrie's residence. Gill had been conversing with Ferrie over the phone prior to Ferrie's return to New Orleans and his FBI interview. Besides that, it still doesnt explain why Ferrie would get worked up over Oswald being in possession of his library card, even after the FBI had dropped the matter.

As I reconstruct it from CD75, the closest account to the events, Martin first mentioned the library card to Hardy Davis early Saturday evening. Later that evening, Davis spoke with Gill and repeated what Martin had said. The card is next mentioned by Gill to Martens at about 1pm Sunday. At 3pm, Martens talks with Ferrie by phone, but there is no indication that he mentioned the card. At around 6pm, Gill is called by Ferrie and tells him 1) Martin had contacted authorities and newspapers, 2) Martin tied him in with the assassination, and 3) Martin said Ferrie knew Oswald, trained him, flew him to Texas. No mention in this report of the library card.

The friend said Ferrie said he was blindsided by the library card mention by the Feds, that he then learned that Oswald had been in one of his CAP units and attended a party at his house. At this point I only surmise that Ferrie went to what he thought were Oswald's recent homes to see if any document of his had been found.

I know it sounds like a stretch, but it's not out of character for Ferrie. He told people that he had done some investigation sfter the assassination. And after his 1961 arrests, he did indeed run around questioning witnesses against him.

But I'm not wedded to this interpretation. Maybe it's what Stone would call a "counter-myth"!!!

[Thomas Graves]

What can you say about someone who needs to start about 10 threads a day,

that she alone responds to? That says it all.

Dawn

_____________________

Reminds me of Thomas H. Purvis

--Thomas

_____________________

[Thomas Graves]

Just curious, but does anyone know *for a fact* that this "Lynne" is a real person?

It's hilariously obvious that it/she/he is here for the sole purpose of getting hysterically angry at Jim Garrison.

History tells us that "people" like this tend to pop out of nowhere everytime the general public is reminded of Mr. Garrison's patriotic and noble efforts in getting the United States government to reveal everything it has on the Kennedy assassination.

So while I sincerely doubt that this it/she/he obsessive is real, if "she" was, I'd be trying to contact any family "she" might have to see if they've made sure she's not a danger to herself and/or those in close proximty to "her".

________________________________________

I'm so paranoid, I gotta believe that she's an evil evil CIA agent/officer. LOL