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Guest Stephen Turner

Zapruder, Four questions..

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SO YOU PREFER TO DISBELIEVE 59 WITNESSES WITHOUT READING WHAT THEY SAID?

Incredible!

Jack

I'll have to look it up if I have time, but I think there were 59 persons who testified that the limo came to a stop. Typical is Hugh Betzner, who said "I WALKED DOWN TOWARD WHERE THE LIMO HAD STOPPED".

...I just looked it up. It is a Vince Palamara article in MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA, 119-128.

Were all 59 mistaken? I suggest that you read Palamara's list before continuing.

Jack

Many thanks to Bernice Moore for taking the time to type in all of the quotes of the 59 witnesses in the "Delay on Elm Street" article in Murder in Dealey Plaza. I've glanced at samples of what is in MIDP and find these are faithful reproductions. I've added ellipses to some of the longer quotes, and underlined what the witnesses said about the limousine and/or motorcade for my analysis below. Some of the ellipses and comments are in the original (or may be Bernice's?).

I'm going to retract my statement that "the 59 witnesses are wrong" and say that it is merely one writer and "authority" on this issue who was mistken. (Jack, I'll trade you the phone number of your crack dealer for my remedial reading instructor's!)

I've gone through the quotes referenced and rearranged them as summarized here and quoted in full below. I've kept their "witness number" with their names so anyone can review what is said here with the book (which you have one, if you're clearly a "real researcher!").

This is what they said:

Said the limousine stopped - 14, two of whom reported it as others' observations, not as their own (net: 12)

Said the limousine slowed - 18, two of whom reported it as others' observations, not as their own (net: 15)

Said the motorcade stopped or slowed - 13.

Said the limousine sped up after the shots - seven

Did not specify according to above - seven

That's a total of 59, less the four who merely reported on other people's observations, for a net total of 55. This, as we will see, is not "59 witnesses who say the limousine stopped" as Jack White posited, but rather 12 who did (plus two who said other people said that it did ... and those other people may already be quoted ...?), or less than 25% of the people who offered a direct opinion (12/55=21.81%).

(I am taking everyone in sum total, that is, not accounting for whether it was said "on the record" - i.e., under oath - or in an informal setting, or whether it was said contemporaneously or several years after the fact.)

Note that some of these people may have said more than one thing, for example that the limo stopped, then accelerated after the shooting. In that case, they are listed under "limo stopped," and not under "limo sped up." If they only said that the limo sped up, or that it was already going slow and sped up, they are under "sped up." If they were unsure - e.g., "looked like it slowed down or stopped," this is not a positive statement as to stopping, so it is under "slowed down." Ditto, "paused" is not clear that it "stopped."

If they stated that the motorcade stopped, they are listed under the "motorcade" section because they did not specifically mention the limo or "the President's car" or anything like that, merely the "parade." (For example, one witness, L.P. Terry (#36), said "the parade stopped in front of the building." Since we know that the limo did not stop "in front of the building," it is a clear reference to the follow-up cars and busses, i.e., the rest of the parade and not the limo specifically.)

If they contradicted themselves (e.g., said one thing in 1963 and another in 1975), they are categorized under what they said earliest.

I may edit this somewhat based upon where someone was at the time, for example a motorcycle cop who was maybe still on Main Street could not have personally observed the limo do much of anything. I have added locations when known.

I don't think that anyone has disputed that the limousine slowed down and that the brake lights came on. The question is whether it stopped and, consequently, the Z-film has been faked. Well, we now know that 59 witnesses did not say the limo stopped, and out of them only 13 might actually have made this observation personally, or less than 25%. (Some of them really didn't say anything at all in this respect.)

If anyone thinks that, based upon what's in MIDP, my evaluation of their statements should change - i.e., what category they're in - let me know and maybe I will. :ph34r:

Said the limousine stopped (personal observation):

4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles) — "The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129];

6) Clemon Earl Johnson---"You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80];

10) DPD Earle Brown — The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped ... after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233];

11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — "At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams (1974), p. 71; 6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.];

13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that " at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped. Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---referring to Chaney's statement as reported in the "Houston Chronicle" dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)];

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — saw JFK's car stop "just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

33) Alan Smith---" the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune", 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith — confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly---after the first shot " I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area [it stopped] for a second or two or something like that I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266];

39) Billy Lovelady---"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];

42) Peggy Burney — she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97; interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"!---See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 "Fourth Decade"];

50) Bill Newman---after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off "; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but" ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96] "I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." ["JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169] "I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in "November Patriots" by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362] "One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96];

Said the limousine stopped (reported observation):

2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car - one of two, nine and ten vehicles behind JFK) — Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63];

8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus, in the first press bus, 12 vehicles behind JFK, still on Main Street at the time) — "The President's driver slammed on the brakes — after the third shot " ["The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193];

Said the limousine almost stopped, or slowed (personal observation):

3) UPI White House Reporter Merriman Smith (rode in the same car as Clark, above, 8 cars behind limo, still on Houston St) "The President's car, possibly as much as 150 or 200 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly" [uPI story, 11/23/63, as reported in "Four Days", UPI, p. 32];

7) Malcolm Summers — "Then there was some hesitation in the caravan itself, a momentary halt, to give the Secret Service man [Clint Hill] a chance to catch up with the car and jump on. It seems to me that it started back up by the time he got to the car "["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 104];

12) DPD D.V. Harkness — "I saw the first shot and the President's car slow[ed] down to almost a stop I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents [were] piling on the car." [6 H 309];

15) DPD motorcycle officer Douglas L. Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — stated " that the car just all but stopped just a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

18) Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney (driver of the follow-up car behind JFK's limo) — indicates, via his report to Chief Rowley, that Greer hit the gas after the fatal head shot to JFK and after the President's slump to the left toward Jackie. [18 H 731-732]. From the HSCA's 2/26/78 interview of Kinney: "He also remarked that 'when Greer (the driver of the Presidential limousine) looked back, his foot must have come off the accelerator' Kinney observed that at the time of the first shot, the speed of the motorcade was '3 to 5 miles an hour.'" [RIF#180-10078-10493; author's interviews with Kinney, 1992-1994];

20) Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car) — "I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed" [18 H 750];

27) Mrs. Phil (Marilyn) Willis---after the fatal head shot, "she stated the Presidential limousine paused momentarily and then sped away under the Triple Underpass." [FBI report dated 6/19/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 179];

37) Ochus V. Campbell — after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene." [22 H 845];

38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins — she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

41) Postal Inspector Harry Holmes (from the Post Office Annex, while viewing through binoculars) "The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car." [7 H 291]. He noticed the car pull to a halt, and Holmes thought: "They are dodging something being thrown." ["The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop (1967), p. 176];

43) David Broeder--"The President's car paused momentarily, then on orders from a Secret Service agent, spurted ahead." ["Washington Evening Star", 11/23/63, p. 8];

44) Sam Holland — stated that the Presidential limousine slowed down on Elm Street. [taped interview with Holland conducted in April, 1965];

46) Mrs. Herman (Billy P.) Clay---"When I heard the second and third shots I knew someone was shooting at the President. I did not know if the President had been hit, but I knew something was wrong. At this point the car President Kennedy was in slowed and I, along with others, moved toward the President's car. As we neared the car it sped off." [22 H 641];

51) Charles Brehm---"Brehm expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move some 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of sight." [22 H 837-838];

52) Mary Moorman---"She recalls that the President's automobile was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesitated and then drove off in a hurry." [22 H 838-839];

54) James Leon Simmons---"The car stopped or almost stopped." [2/15/69 Clay Shaw trial testimony; "Forgive My Grief Vol. III" by Penn Jones, p. 53; "High Treason" by Groden & Livingstone (1990 Berkley Edition), p. 22];

Said the limousine almost stopped (reported observation):

1) Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus) — twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade": article by Sheldon Inkol];

31) Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth)---" Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt."; she saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. [2 H 43 (Lane); DMN, 11/23/63; 24 H 520; "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988]. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade": article by Sheldon Inkol];

Said the motorcade came to a stop or slowed (did not specify limousine):

5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles, positioned in front of the first press bus, 12 vehicles behind JFK, still on Main Street at the time) — "After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 134];

9) AP photographer Henry Burroughs (rode in Camera Car #2) — (eight cars behind the limo, still on Houston St) "we heard the shots and the motorcade stopped." [letter, Burroughs to Palamara, dated 10/14/98];

16) Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ's car) — stated that "the motorcade came to a stop momentarily." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

26) Phil Willis — "The [Presidential] party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass." [7 H 497; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 24];

30) Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car, 8 to 9 cars behind limo, still on Houston or Main (there was no "the" National Press Pool Car, there were three — stated that " the motorcade ground to a halt." ["Dallas Morning News", 11/23/63, p. 2; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

36) L.P. Terry — "The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26];

40) An unnamed witness---from his vantage point in the courthouse building — stated that "The cavalcade stopped there and there was bedlam." ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

45) Maurice Orr — noted that the motorcade stopped. [Arch Kimbrough, Mary Ferrell, and Sue Fitch, "Chronology", unpublished manuscript; see also "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers, pages 20 & 23];

47) Mrs. Rose Clark---"She noted that the President's automobile came almost to a halt following the three shots, before it picked up speed and drove away." [24 H 533];

53) Jean Hill---"The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out and I would say it [JFK's limo] was just approximately, if not---it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It [JFK's limo] was just almost stunned." [6 H 208-209; Hill's testimony on this matter was dramatized in the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" (1991): "The driver had stopped-I don't know what was wrong with that driver." See also "JFK: The Book of the Film" (1992), p. 122. Therein is referenced a March 1991 conversation with Jean Hill.];

55) Norman Similas---"The Presidential limousine had passed me and slowed down slightly." ["Liberty" Magazine, 7/15/64, p. 13; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 233];

57) Presidential aide Dave Powers (rode in the follow-up car)---" At that time we were traveling very slowly At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply." [7 H 473-475]. On 11/22/88, Powers was interviewed by CBS' Charles Kuralt. Powers remarked about the remorse Greer felt about not speeding up in time to save JFK"s life and agreed with Kuralt that, if Greer had sped up BEFORE the fatal head shot instead of afterwards, JFK might still be alive today [CBS, 11/22/88---this is a very dramatic and compelling short interview]. If that weren't enough, the ARRB's Tom Samoluk told me that, during the course of an interview he conducted in 1996 in which the Board was in the process of obtaining Powers' film, Powers said that he agreed with my take on the Secret Service!;

58) Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough (rode in LBJ's car) — "When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop) After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital."; " The cars all stopped. I put in there [his affidavit], 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they [the Secret Service] should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." [7 H 439-440; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 482; see also "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988: "The Secret Service in the car in front of us kind of casually looked around and were rather slow to react."];

Said the limousine sped up after the shots:

19) Secret Service Agent Clint Hill (follow-up car, rear of limo) — " I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker-type noise SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward." [18 H 742; Nix film; "The Secret Service" and "Inside The Secret Service" videos from 1995];

21) Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett (follow-up car)---after the fatal head shot "the President's car immediately kicked into high gear." [18 H 760; 24 H 541-542]. During his 1/30/78 HSCA interview, Bennett said the follow-up car was moving at "10-12 m.p.h.", an indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF#180-10082-10452];

24) Secret Service Agent William "Tim" McIntyre (follow-up car) — "He stated that Greer, driver of the Presidential limousine, accelerated after the third shot." [RIF#180-10082-10454: 1/31/78 HSCA interview];

28) Mrs. John (Nellie) Connally (rode in JFK's limo) — JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot. [4 H 147; WR 50; "Best Evidence" by David Lifton (1988), p. 122];

29) Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and himself a victim of the assassination) — "After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick' at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line." [4 H 133; WR50; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 13];

32) AP photographer James Altgens — "He said the President's car was proceeding at about ten miles per hour at the time [of the shooting] Altgens stated the driver of the Presidential limousine apparently realized what had happened and speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [FBI report dated 6/5/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 203] "The car's driver realized what had happened and almost if by reflex speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [AP dispatch, 11/22/63; "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor (1998), Document 28];

59) First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine)---"We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then [immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat.We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston&Elm] I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off those poor men in the front" [5 H 179-181]

Did not specify fully:

17) DPD J.W. Foster — stated that " immediately after President Kennedy was struck the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb." [CD 897, pp. 20, 21; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

22) Secret Service Agent " " Johns (V.P. follow-up car) — "I felt that if there was danger [it was] due to the slow speed of the automobile." [18 H 774]. During his 8/8/78 HSCA interview, Johns said that "Our car was moving very slowly", a further indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF# 180-10074-10079; Altgens photo];

23) Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson (rode in the lead car) — "I think it [the lead car on Elm Street] was a little further ahead [of JFK's limo] than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead." [4 H 352], an indication of the lag in the limo during the assassination.;

25) Mrs. Earle ("Dearie") Cabell (rode in the Mayor's car, positioned 4 cars behind the limo, taking turn onto Elm St.) — the motorcade "stopped dead still when the noise of the shot was heard." [7 H 487; "Accessories After the Fact" by Sylvia Meagher (1967), p. 4; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

48) Hugh Betzner---"I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped then the President's car sped on under the underpass." [19 H 467];

49) John Chism---after the shots he saw "the motorcade beginning to speed up." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 29];

56) Presidential Aide Ken O'Donnell (rode in the follow-up car)---" If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? [as quoted in Marrs' "Crossfire", p. 248, based off a passage from O'Donnell & Powers' book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye"] On page 40 of O'Donnell's book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye", the aide reports that "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kennedy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." Indeed, William E. Sale, an airman first class aircraft mechanic assigned to Carswell AFB and who was stationed at Love Field before, during, and after the assassination, stated that "when the agent who was driving JFK's car came back to Air Force One he was as white as a ghost and had to be helped back to the plane *[undated Sale letter, provided to the author by Martin Shackelford];

So there ya have it. Does this prove the Z-film a "hoax" or "altered" with regard to the limousine stopping or not based upon 59 witnesses' statements "all" saying it stopped? I think not; what thinks ye?

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Great Post, Duke (and thank you, Bernice, for the witness quotes).

One thing to remember when considering the motorcade is an event I see happen in traffic all the time.

I call it the "slinky" effect (for lack of a better description).

Take a long line of cars following one another head to tail. If the lead cars slow, the slowing spreads backwards through the line of cars. This causes the entire lane of traffic to close in, not unlike a slinky that is stretched and released.

Interestingly, even if the cars at the front never stop, the cars in the middle/end of the lane may be forced to stop. This action is often the genesis of rush hour traffic jams and 'rear-end accidents'.

While I realise fully that this is conjecture, it is possible that a slowing action on the part of the front cars (limo, et al) could explain a slowing or stopping action of the follow-up cars.

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Great Post, Duke (and thank you, Bernice, for the witness quotes).

One thing to remember when considering the motorcade is an event I see happen in traffic all the time.

I call it the "slinky" effect (for lack of a better description).

Take a long line of cars following one another head to tail. If the lead cars slow, the slowing spreads backwards through the line of cars. This causes the entire lane of traffic to close in, not unlike a slinky that is stretched and released.

Interestingly, even if the cars at the front never stop, the cars in the middle/end of the lane may be forced to stop. This action is often the genesis of rush hour traffic jams and 'rear-end accidents'.

While I realise fully that this is conjecture, it is possible that a slowing action on the part of the front cars (limo, et al) could explain a slowing or stopping action of the follow-up cars.

Absolutely, Frank, I called it 'the concertina effect' in another post when discussing relative movements contributing to witnesses 'impressions of what is happening.

______________

I think you've covered it well, Duke. To make a statement that '59 winessess said it stopped' is not good 'science'. To then use this unsupported statement to say 'the zfilm is faked' is not good either.

Another thing I've noted as well is how when a large vehicle which has been slowing down shifts to accelleration it 'lurches': the front which has been 'dipping' and rear 'rising' will have this movement reversed. The torque from a powerful engine is transmitted by the drive shaft and the rear axle. This can give an impression of a movement that is not applicable in considering the movement of the vehicle as a whole and may for a person positioned correctly contribute to some of these statements. Also the relative movements of vehicles must be kept in mind. It's a bit like sitting in a train at a station and you might know that the train is stationary but suddenly the train next to yours starts to move and for amoment it really seems like your train and not the other one is moving.

Overall these are witness statements and impressions and cannot be taken as seriously as some would like. They indicate things and overall here the indication is that the limo never stopped.

Edited by John Dolva

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Great Post, Duke (and thank you, Bernice, for the witness quotes).

One thing to remember when considering the motorcade is an event I see happen in traffic all the time.

You're absolutely right about the motorcade, Duke. Great post. I did something similar when I read the Palamara article a few years back. "Slowed" or "sped up" does not equal stopping. Motorcade stopping does not equal limousine stopping, etc... Some people will distort info to reach whatever conclusion they desire. and that's not only the lone-nutters... In my opinion, one of the key factors in the motorcade coming to a stop is only seen in one film and is rarely discussed. I think it's the Nix film that shows Chaney and Jackson--the moto-cops to the right of Kennedy--slam on their brakes after the head shot. This would undoubtedly have created the accordion like effect you've discussed. Those nearby who saw the limousine slow and the motorcycles slam on their brakes would easily be fooled into thinking the limousine stopped as well.

There is this desire within the community to give eyewitness testimony--selective eyewitness testimony at that-- much more weight than it deserves. If Howard Brennan sees Oswald in the window he's blind but if Jean Hill sees 8 Secret Service men on the knoll playing dice with Jack Ruby she's got x-ray vision... Thanks to Bernice for posting the actual quotes and to Vince Palamara for gathering them to begin with, so that Duke could make an intelligent post... It takes a village...

Accordingly, if anyone could zoom in on and clean up the purported JFK car visible in the Weigman film, I would appreciate it. I'm not so sure the car in the photo isn't the Queen Mary, the Secret Sevice back-up car used in the May 64 re-enactments. While there is clearly someone on the back of the car in the Weigman film, Jackie and Clint Hill weren't the only ones riding on the back of a black limousine. George Hickey was sitting up on the back of the Queen Mary with his Ar-15 at the ready while 3 agents riding on the side of the car piled in.

Edited by Pat Speer

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When this same topic came up on a different JFK assassination research forum sometime ago. I was able to crop and enlarge the image from a posted Wiegman frame. It shows Zapruder and Sitzman sitting side by side at the front of the abutment with their legs hanging downwards. Sitzman is seated nearest to the camera and she has her arms around Zapruder's upper body. Her right arm is around Zapruders back and neck, and her right hand can be seen on his shoulder. Because of the way she is supporting him, Zapruder has to push his camera away from his face and outward from his body.

Anyone requesting a copy of the file can e-mail me via the board facility. I tried unsuccessfully to attach it herewith.

The above enlargement is now posted below:

When this same topic came up on a different JFK assassination research forum sometime ago. I was able to crop and enlarge the image from a posted Wiegman frame. It shows Zapruder and Sitzman sitting side by side at the front of the abutment with their legs hanging downwards. Sitzman is seated nearest to the camera and she has her arms around Zapruder's upper body. Her right arm is around Zapruders back and neck, and her right hand can be seen on his shoulder. Because of the way she is supporting him, Zapruder has to push his camera away from his face and outward from his body.

Anyone requesting a copy of the file can e-mail me via the board facility. I tried unsuccessfully to attach it herewith.

The above enlargement is now posted below:

Additionally, the following was cropped from a later Wiegman frame :

Edited by Ed O'Hagan

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In this poor quality Couch frame i beleive that this may be "wiegman" running to catch up with Camera car 1

7280.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger

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Great Post, Duke (and thank you, Bernice, for the witness quotes).

One thing to remember when considering the motorcade is an event I see happen in traffic all the time.

You're absolutely right about the motorcade, Duke. Great post. I did something similar when I read the Palamara article a few years back. "Slowed" or "sped up" does not equal stopping. Motorcade stopping does not equal limousine stopping, etc... Some people will distort info to reach whatever conclusion they desire. and that's not only the lone-nutters... In my opinion, one of the key factors in the motorcade coming to a stop is only seen in one film and is rarely discussed. I think it's the Nix film that shows Chaney and Jackson--the moto-cops to the right of Kennedy--slam on their brakes after the head shot. This would undoubtedly have created the accordion like effect you've discussed. Those nearby who saw the limousine slow and the motorcycles slam on their brakes would easily be fooled into thinking the limousine stopped as well.

There is this desire within the community to give eyewitness testimony--selective eyewitness testimony at that-- much more weight than it deserves. If Howard Brennan sees Oswald in the window he's blind but if Jean Hill sees 8 Secret Service men on the knoll playing dice with Jack Ruby she's got x-ray vision... Thanks to Bernice for posting the actual quotes and to Vince Palamara for gathering them to begin with, so that Duke could make an intelligent post... It takes a village...

Accordingly, if anyone could zoom in on and clean up the purported JFK car visible in the Weigman film, I would appreciate it. I'm not so sure the car in the photo isn't the Queen Mary, the Secret Sevice back-up car used in the May 64 re-enactments. While there is clearly someone on the back of the car in the Weigman film, Jackie and Clint Hill weren't the only ones riding on the back of a black limousine. George Hickey was sitting up on the back of the Queen Mary with his Ar-15 at the ready while 3 agents riding on the side of the car piled in.

"Accordingly, if anyone could zoom in on and clean up the purported JFK car visible in the Weigman film, I would appreciate it."

You're welcome. See attachment.

Jack

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That's pretty good, Jack. Thanks.

I think my ongoing problem comes from my taking a close look at the limo in Z-380, and comparing that to the Weigman frame. In 380 Kennedy appears to have fallen almost entirely below the level of the seat. The passenger in Kennedy's position in the Weigman frame, on the other hand, appears to be much more erect. Even worse, there appears to be a vertical strip of chrome on the right side of the limo in the Weigman frame, while the President's Lincoln limo, with its suicide doors, lacked such a strip. The Queen Mary, on the other hand, had such a strip, as revealed by Warren Commission Exhibit 903.

So I still have my doubts on this.

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In this frame, i see someone sitting in the "upright" position, i assume it is Connally.?

Edited by Robin Unger

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Good point Robin. It might be Connally.

By the way, you're correct that that's Weigman in the Couch film. He jumps out of the car, runs around, and then piles back into the car, quickly followed by Lem Johns, one of LBJ's SS agents. Johns had jumped out of LBJ's back-up car, raced up to the knoll and got left behind. The press gave him a ride to Parkland.

Edited by Pat Speer

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That's pretty good, Jack. Thanks.

I think my ongoing problem comes from my taking a close look at the limo in Z-380, and comparing that to the Weigman frame. In 380 Kennedy appears to have fallen almost entirely below the level of the seat. The passenger in Kennedy's position in the Weigman frame, on the other hand, appears to be much more erect. Even worse, there appears to be a vertical strip of chrome on the right side of the limo in the Weigman frame, while the President's Lincoln limo, with its suicide doors, lacked such a strip. The Queen Mary, on the other hand, had such a strip, as revealed by Warren Commission Exhibit 903.

So I still have my doubts on this.

1. Show me an American flag on the front fender of the QM.

2. The SS men in the QM were STANDING. Show me anyone standing.

3. The QM had nobody climbing on the trunk.

4. The QM had nobody wearing a pillbox hat in the back seat.

Show me.

Jack

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There's much more to see in Z. frame # 421 than what might appear at first glance.

In that regard I have a text and graphics file already prepared for posting. However, prior to presenting it I would like others to have a go at spotting what is involved.

PhotoShop software can easily do the job, but for those who wish to download a free

and very high quality image editor, I would recommend Image Analyser at

http://meesoft.logicnet.dk/Analyzer/

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There's much more to see in Z. frame # 421 than what might appear at first glance.

In that regard I have a text and graphics file already prepared for posting. However, prior to presenting it I would like others to have a go at spotting what is involved.

PhotoShop software can easily do the job, but for those who wish to download a free

and very high quality image editor, I would recommend Image Analyser at

http://meesoft.logicnet.dk/Analyzer/

Ed.

I agree, John Dolva put me on to Image Analyzer.

It's a very powerfull little image program, and it is "Freeware"

This image seems to show a "Black" handbag which Sitzman was carrying, and which appears to be the object seen at the feet of the woman on the pedestal.

7285.jpg

In the image below is this Sitzman's black bag.?

Or is it Zapruder carrying a "Black" camera bag, and is that the object which appears at the feet of the woman on the pedestal.

7286.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger

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Robin,

I am waiting to discover what. if anything, viewers of Z. frame 421 will report seeing.

In the meantime. would you please screen the attached file showing the abutment, turn off the light in the room, and then move back about 6 feet. If you or any of the other viewers want to run it via PhotoShop or Image Analyser to improve the quality, it would be interesting to see what comes to light, and also to hear what others have to say about it.

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