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Greg Parker

Nick McDonald: hero or villain?

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“McDonald yanked the gun away, stuck it into Oswald’s stomach and almost pulled the trigger himself, but feared the bullet would pass through Oswald and wound an officer directly behind him.”

Well, that could actually be the truth of the matter!

Did McDonald tell this version to anyone other than Life in 1983? As Greg relates, he certainly didn’t tell the WC that.

It’s possible that McDonald was supposed to shoot Oswald, and started to, but another officer got in the way, so to speak.

Perhaps by 1983 McDonald felt comfortable and daring enough to tell a version of his story (“I wanted to shoot the SOB but couldn’t”) that was almost the truth (“I was supposed to shoot the SOB but couldn’t”).

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“McDonald yanked the gun away, stuck it into Oswald’s stomach and almost pulled the trigger himself, but feared the bullet would pass through Oswald and wound an officer directly behind him.”

Well, that could actually be the truth of the matter!

Did McDonald tell this version to anyone other than Life in 1983? As Greg relates, he certainly didn’t tell the WC that.

It’s possible that McDonald was supposed to shoot Oswald, and started to, but another officer got in the way, so to speak.

Perhaps by 1983 McDonald felt comfortable and daring enough to tell a version of his story (“I wanted to shoot the SOB but couldn’t”) that was almost the truth (“I was supposed to shoot the SOB but couldn’t”).

Yep, that makes a chilling kind of sense. That and the articles plus Gregs paper seems to get it into perspective. He didn't stand a chance in the long run. By the time he was going to leave Dallas 'they' must have been getting quite desperate to off him. Probably the whole thing in the theatre was a drawn out affair to get Oswald to 'show his hand' so they could drop him there. I still think the rifle-butt stamp on his temple could have been another attempt with all the 'story' a cover just in case it succeeded.

Edited by John Dolva

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“McDonald yanked the gun away, stuck it into Oswald’s stomach and almost pulled the trigger himself, but feared the bullet would pass through Oswald and wound an officer directly behind him.”

Well, that could actually be the truth of the matter!

Did McDonald tell this version to anyone other than Life in 1983? As Greg relates, he certainly didn’t tell the WC that.

It’s possible that McDonald was supposed to shoot Oswald, and started to, but another officer got in the way, so to speak.

Perhaps by 1983 McDonald felt comfortable and daring enough to tell a version of his story (“I wanted to shoot the SOB but couldn’t”) that was almost the truth (“I was supposed to shoot the SOB but couldn’t”).

Lee, James... thanks for posting those newspaper clips. He really took to signing his name "Maurice N McDonald, Captor of Oswald"? ;)

Ron, I agree with you. In my opinion, McDonald went straight to the church where he obtained the Tippit murder weapon in order to plant it on Oswald, and from there, straight to the TT (noone else named him as being involved in the search of the houses, noone else named him as being at the library) The evidence that Oswald ever had that pistol, let alone stopped off at his rooming house to pick it up is flimsy to say the least.

If I am right about McDonald's movements, and what he was up to, then at least some involved with the Abundant Life Temple played a part in the conspiracy. The shenanigans with the DPD radio transpripts obliterating a reference to a witness seeing the suspect enter the church, and Hill's aborted attempt to search it (he was stopped at the door by two females who assured him all was well inside) only add to the picture that there was something to hide.

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Greg,

This is a great thread. Lot's to ponder.

Perhaps as opposed to planting the weapon, the intent was a switch? Similar to what appears to have been the case for Sirhan Sirhan? Oswald in the Fritz notes doesn't seem to deny carrying a gun. There is also the interesting account by witnesses who claimed to know Jack Ruby that said they saw him hand Oswald a pistol when he emerged from the TSBD. I don't know if anyone ever properly followed up on that account?

1:45 P.M. Arrest at the Texas Theater

"This is it" or "Well, it's all over now." Oswald arrested. (Patrolman M. N. McDonald heard these remarks. Other officers who were at the scene did not hear them.) "I don't know why you are treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol into a movie. . . . I don't see why you handcuffed me. . . . Why should I hide my face? I haven't done anything to be ashamed of. . . . I want a lawyer. . . . I am not resisting arrest. . . . I didn't kill anybody. . . . I haven't shot anybody. . . . I protest this police brutality. . . . I fought back there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun. . . . What is this all about?"

2:00 - 2:15 P.M. Drive to Police Department

"What is this all about? . . . I know my rights. . . . A police officer has been killed? . . . I hear they burn for murder. Well, they say it just takes a second to die. . . . All I did was carry a gun.

Anyway - it's interesting that MacDonald seems to be implying in the Life interview, that the gun didn't fire because the webbing between his fingers interfered with the hammer? I thought the story was a bad firing pin. Also, that he was about to administer a gut shot, the same way Oswald was to die on the 24th.

I think I have another article, which again, is a bit different - need to search for it.

BTW - out of curiousity, have you any idea as to where Torbitt [Copeland, or whomever he was] got his piece on the Abundant Life Temple? I managed to find something which claimed it came from Garrison's files, largely, however, since Garrison's file were largely destroyed, no clue.

- lee

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Close enough...

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/The_critics/L...l_Guardian.html

Oswald drew a pistol and attempted to kill the arresting officer. The firing pin stuck and marked the bullet but it did not explode.

WADE SAID, “He [Oswald] struck at the officer, put the gun against his head and snapped it, but did not—the bullet did not—go off. We have the snapped bullet there. Officers apprehended him at that time…It misfired being on the—the shell didn’t explode. We have where it hit it, but it didn’t explode.”

Wade was attempting to indicate that when Oswald was arrested in the theater he tried to shoot the arresting officer and did in fact pull the trigger of the pistol There can be no question that the trigger was pulled since Wade assured us, in his fashion, that the firing pin struck the bullet and marked the bullet. He further assured us his office has the “snapped bullet” in its possession. The arresting officer, however, policeman MacDonald, told the story differently: “I got my hand on the butt of his gun,” said MacDonald. “I could feel Oswald’s hand on the trigger. I jerked my hand and was able to slow down the trigger movement. He didn’t have enough force to fire it.” (Washington Post, Dec. 1.)

Confronted with a resume of that report, Wade quickly adjusted to it:

Reporter: There was one officer who said that he pulled the trigger, but he managed to put his thumb in the part before the firing pin. It didn’t strike the—the bullet didn't explode. Is that…?

Wade: I don’t know whether it’s that or not. I know he didn’t snap the gun is all I know about it. (New York Times, Nov. 26.)

We leave this incident bearing in mind one remarkable fact. Physical evidence, introduced by Wade—a bullet marked by a firing pin in an attempt to kill a police officer—now was repudiated by the officer who was an eyewitness and by Wade himself.

post-675-1138300750_thumb.jpg

post-675-1138300766_thumb.jpg

Edited by Lee Forman

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Guest Stephen Turner

This is what the WC, via dave Rietzes said about the arrest..

McDonald, Brewer (shoe shop manager, who alegedly spotted Oswald entering the T Theatre without paying) and other officers step onto the stage,Brewer points out Oswald as the man he had seen. McDonald then searches two suspects in the centre isle....

Some things about this statement are just plain weird..."McDonald then searches two SUSPECTS in the center isle" Suspects in what exactly, entering a theater without paying? shooting tippet? assassinating the President? And how can they be suspects when Brewer, the only witness to Oswald's misdemeanour, has already identified him to several policemen. The only reason for the massive Police responce has to be because they believe that they have cornered the Assassin, nothing else, going by the official account makes any sense. So here they have the suspected slayer of Tippet, and JFK,probably armed, certainly dangerous, and what do they do, creep about searching other "suspects" And only when Oswald doesn't make a run for it, or give them some other reason to blow him out of his socks, do they attempt an arrest.

MORE HOLES THAN A SWISS CHEESE..

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Stupid observation - I'm sure it's been made before - a pistol, like the kind allegedly used by Oswald [which still makes me think of the references to a starter pistol having been used by Sirhan Sirhan, barking 3 foot flames and filling the air with paper as per witnesses], doesn't automatically eject shells - an automatic does. Right? So if Tippit's body was discovered with a few spent shell casings [which later were swapped anyway, since they didn't contain the marking placed on them when they were collected], Oswald would have had to have administered his coup de grace, opened the cyclinder and would have had to shake loose the empties - is that correct?

I just googled and got my answer - a .38 special pistol / revolver does not automatically eject shells - an automatic does.

http://www.dartagnan.fslife.co.uk/page7.html

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Last one...

The photo accompanying the article, Life, 11/83. The seat Oswald allegedly was sitting in [after moving about the theatre multiple times] was painted black in 1965.

Wonder who Tippit's kids think executed their Dad?

- lee

post-675-1138330923_thumb.jpg

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Found the thread. Wichita Eagle, 11/23.

[Load the attachment please]

I forgot to highlight the time McDonald is citing for when he got the call. Oh well.

Edited by Lee Forman

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Greg,

In it’s final report, the WC listed its conclusions based on the evidence it had been provided with by various agencies, and from the sworn testimony of witnesses it called.

Conclusion 6 was short and to the point:

Within 80 minutes of the assassination and 35 minutes of the Tippit killing Oswald resisted arrest at the theatre by attempting to shoot another Dallas police officer.

The after action reports by the arresting officers can be found in the DPD Archives, Box# 2, Folder# 7

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

They were filed between December 2 - 5, 1963.

Here is what McDonald wrote in his Report:

M.N. McDonald: "When I got within a foot of him, I told the suspect to get to his feet. He stood up immediately, bringing his hands up about shoulder high and saying, "Well it's over now". I was reaching for his waist and he struck me on the nose with his left hand. With his right hand, he reached for his waist and both our hands were on a pistol that was stuck in his belt under his shirt. We both fell into the seats struggling for the pistol. ... I managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the suspect's clothing and grip I heard the snap of the hammer and the pistol crossed over my left cheek, causing a four inch scratch".

As you can see from reading these reports, at no time in the first 10 to 12 days following the assassination, did any of the arresting officers on the scene claim that Oswald tried to shoot M.N. McDonald. If the pistol did go off and cause a "snap" of the hammer falling into place, it was because McDonald jerked it out of Oswald's pants.

Oswald didn't take the gun out of his pants, McDonald did.

Steve Thomas

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Greg,

In it’s final report, the WC listed its conclusions based on the evidence it had been provided with by various agencies, and from the sworn testimony of witnesses it called.

Conclusion 6 was short and to the point:

Within 80 minutes of the assassination and 35 minutes of the Tippit killing Oswald resisted arrest at the theatre by attempting to shoot another Dallas police officer.

The after action reports by the arresting officers can be found in the DPD Archives, Box# 2, Folder# 7

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

They were filed between December 2 - 5, 1963.

Here is what McDonald wrote in his Report:

M.N. McDonald: "When I got within a foot of him, I told the suspect to get to his feet. He stood up immediately, bringing his hands up about shoulder high and saying, "Well it's over now". I was reaching for his waist and he struck me on the nose with his left hand. With his right hand, he reached for his waist and both our hands were on a pistol that was stuck in his belt under his shirt. We both fell into the seats struggling for the pistol. ... I managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the suspect's clothing and grip I heard the snap of the hammer and the pistol crossed over my left cheek, causing a four inch scratch".

As you can see from reading these reports, at no time in the first 10 to 12 days following the assassination, did any of the arresting officers on the scene claim that Oswald tried to shoot M.N. McDonald. If the pistol did go off and cause a "snap" of the hammer falling into place, it was because McDonald jerked it out of Oswald's pants.

Oswald didn't take the gun out of his pants, McDonald did.

Steve Thomas

Very intersting thread. Great points made by all. I was wondering if anybody can eloborate on the story of Bernard Haire, who owned Bernies Hobby House. He stated that he was in the alley behind the theatre, and witnessed the police bringing a "flushed" man out into the alley and put him in the squad car. The police then left with the "suspect". Mr. Haire thought for many years that he witnessed the arrest of Oswald, until he found out years later that Oswald had been brought out on Jefferson Blvd. I understand that the theatre was layed out [sideways] so as the the screen was at the far right of the building looking at it from the front from Jefferson. The back of the theatre would be on the left of the building looking at it, and the "alley" would be directly in the back, not on the side, as normal theatres would be laid out. Anybody have anything on this episode?

thanks--Smitty

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