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"he was out at dawn hunting in New Hampshire and a young man, a fellow hunter, with a long range rifle, killed him. He shot him in the neck, mistook him for a deer. "

This is filled with misinformation. He was in his backyard...NOT OUT HUNTING. The person

who shot him WAS NOT OUT HUNTING; he was NOT A FELLOW HUNTER; he was the son of a

local law officer.

Jack

Someone should check Dick Cheney's whereabouts on the date of the death.

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Of course some people believe that the death of Karyn Kupcinet was related to the JFK case. I discovered this post on a conspiracy-related website called thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com (it is not clear who is behind the blog or who posted this but there is now also a web-site dedicated to Kupcinet:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet/

The website states there is a book being written on her life, a collaboration between her niece Karu and a writer named Paul Fecteau. They have a website: www.research@paulfecteau.com

Re Mr. Fecteau:

http://www.washburn.edu/faculty/pfecteau/biography.htm

John might want to ask him if he or Kari think her death was in fact related to the JFK case.

****************************************************************************

Karyn Kupcinet, Stage Name "Tammy Windsor"

Last night I was watching a Hawaiian Eye episode. I recognized Karyn Kupcinet and I thought she was not listed in the credits. I've had this episode for a few years. At the end, I noticed a number of credits. But why not her? I looked at the credits and found "The Clerk," which would describe the role Karyn had in this show. How I knew it was her was I'm looking at this girl and I start to see the mouth, the nose, the cheekbones of -- Irv Kupcinet! "The Clerk" was played by Tammy Windsor. Well this was a pseudonym I didn't know about. She is listed in IMDB and TV-Tome. But in most of the shows, I think she was known as Karyn Kupcinet. Not an easy name. There was a gossip columnist in Hollywood who kept begging her to change her name as people couldn't pronounce it. (Except in Chicago) People would pronounce the name as Ka-reen Kup-cin-ay. The name "Karyn" was another selection of hers. She was born as Roberta Lynn Kupcinet. They were having a hard time with her name. The parents were calling her Bobbe Lynn. Finally, Karyn was at some children's party and she came over to her parents and said, "This cookie is from your cookie." And so she was called Cookie. I don't know how old she was when her name first changed. I recall reading an old copy of Who's Who in the Midwest. Irv was listed, as was Essee, his wife, Jerry, his son and Cookie (deceased).

Biographers all thought she only appeared in one film, Jerry Lewis' The Ladies Man. I found out she appeared in the 1960 version of the film The Little Shop of Horrors. I think she plays "The Teenager," unless I'm thinking of one of her TV shows. Jack Nicholson is in the movie and I think it's a cult film. They're selling it on Amazon.com for $0.01 and shipping is $2.98. Just make sure which version you're getting. There was a Broadway version, etc.

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Of course some people believe that the death of Karyn Kupcinet was related to the JFK case. I discovered this post on a conspiracy-related website called thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com (it is not clear who is behind the blog or who posted this but there is now also a web-site dedicated to Kupcinet:

Wake up Tim,

You're not paying attention.

thecloakofdarkness blog is Kathleen Collins, a forum member who is curious about all things Karyn Kupcient and Donald Norton. I'm sure she will soon set you staight herself.

BK

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet/

The website states there is a book being written on her life, a collaboration between her niece Karu and a writer named Paul Fecteau. They have a website: www.research@paulfecteau.com

Re Mr. Fecteau:

http://www.washburn.edu/faculty/pfecteau/biography.htm

John might want to ask him if he or Kari think her death was in fact related to the JFK case.

****************************************************************************

Karyn Kupcinet, Stage Name "Tammy Windsor"

Last night I was watching a Hawaiian Eye episode. I recognized Karyn Kupcinet and I thought she was not listed in the credits. I've had this episode for a few years. At the end, I noticed a number of credits. But why not her? I looked at the credits and found "The Clerk," which would describe the role Karyn had in this show. How I knew it was her was I'm looking at this girl and I start to see the mouth, the nose, the cheekbones of -- Irv Kupcinet! "The Clerk" was played by Tammy Windsor. Well this was a pseudonym I didn't know about. She is listed in IMDB and TV-Tome. But in most of the shows, I think she was known as Karyn Kupcinet. Not an easy name. There was a gossip columnist in Hollywood who kept begging her to change her name as people couldn't pronounce it. (Except in Chicago) People would pronounce the name as Ka-reen Kup-cin-ay. The name "Karyn" was another selection of hers. She was born as Roberta Lynn Kupcinet. They were having a hard time with her name. The parents were calling her Bobbe Lynn. Finally, Karyn was at some children's party and she came over to her parents and said, "This cookie is from your cookie." And so she was called Cookie. I don't know how old she was when her name first changed. I recall reading an old copy of Who's Who in the Midwest. Irv was listed, as was Essee, his wife, Jerry, his son and Cookie (deceased).

Biographers all thought she only appeared in one film, Jerry Lewis' The Ladies Man. I found out she appeared in the 1960 version of the film The Little Shop of Horrors. I think she plays "The Teenager," unless I'm thinking of one of her TV shows. Jack Nicholson is in the movie and I think it's a cult film. They're selling it on Amazon.com for $0.01 and shipping is $2.98. Just make sure which version you're getting. There was a Broadway version, etc.

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Bill, thank you for the "wake-up" call. No I did not know that. And I suspect many members may not have been aware of her blog, unless I just missed reading about it. You know it is hard to read everything here!

What was the "wake up call"? Yes, I author that blog. So what? I research Karyn Kupcinet. So what? I think Paul Fecteau, a member of this Forum, was pleased with my observations at his Yahoo site. You should ask him. But let me tell you: he doesn't know anymore than I do as to who killed her. If he did he'd contact me.

I'm tired of all the sniping at me over her. There was a lot of nastiness written about me in this thread. If it keeps up on this Forum, I'm contacting John Simkin. And that goes especially to Bill Kelly. He's the one who walked away when a man identifying himself as Lee Harvey Oswald spoke with Mae Brussell. Is there anything more pathetic than that?

And one more thing: I never made a dime off Karyn Kupcinet. It goes much deeper than that. Something you wouldn't understand.

Kathleen Collins

Edited by Kathleen Collins
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Bill, thank you for the "wake-up" call. No I did not know that. And I suspect many members may not have been aware of her blog, unless I just missed reading about it. You know it is hard to read everything here!

What was the "wake up call"? Yes, I author that blog. So what? I research Karyn Kupcinet. So what? I think Paul Fecteau, a member of this Forum, was pleased with my observations at his Yahoo site. You should ask him. But let me tell you: he doesn't know anymore than I do as to who killed her. If he did he'd contact me.

I'm tired of all the sniping at me over her. There was a lot of nastiness written about me in this thread. If it keeps up on this Forum, I'm contacting John Simkin. And that goes especially to Bill Kelly. He's the one who walked away when a man identifying himself as Lee Harvey Oswald spoke with Mae Brussell. Is there anything more pathetic than that?

And one more thing: I never made a dime off Karyn Kupcinet. It goes much deeper than that. Something you wouldn't understand.

Kathleen Collins

Kathleen,

Before making any more unfounded judgements, I just mentioned to TG, who recently discovered your blog, that you are a member of this forum and would check in on this.

Where's the nastyness?

I think you have made some very informative contributions to the forum and it would benefit others to focus their attention on such specific and interesting individuals as KK and DN.

And at no time in my presence ever did anyone identify themselves as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Lee Harvey Oswald, in my opinion, was killed by Jack Ruby while in the custody of the Dallas Police.

Donald Norton, and I don't know which one it was, met Mae Brussell and John Judge after Mae gave a talk at the University of Dayton, Ohio. I was present, eighteen years old at the time, when he introduced himself as Don Norton, who Mae recognized as someone who sent her checks to support her research, which he said was "conscience money."

Judge, Mae Brussell and Don Norton then went back to Judge's apartment where Judge noticed that this fellow was reciting some of Oswald's spiels. Judge and Mae Brussell later compared some of Norton's letters and check signatures with Oswald's signature and could not come up with a comparison.

Now how that makes me sniping, pathetic and nasty I don't know.

I thought you would straighten Tim Gratz out about KK, not attack me.

BK

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I never made a dime off Karyn Kupcinet. It goes much deeper than that. Something you wouldn't understand.

Kathleen Collins

Kathleen,

Before making any more unfounded judgements, I just mentioned to TG, who recently discovered your blog, that you are a member of this forum and would check in on this.

Where's the nastyness?

I think you have made some very informative contributions to the forum and it would benefit others to focus their attention on such specific and interesting individuals as KK and DN.

And at no time in my presence ever did anyone identify themselves as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Lee Harvey Oswald, in my opinion, was killed by Jack Ruby while in the custody of the Dallas Police.

Donald Norton, and I don't know which one it was, met Mae Brussell and John Judge after Mae gave a talk at the University of Dayton, Ohio. I was present, eighteen years old at the time, when he introduced himself as Don Norton, who Mae recognized as someone who sent her checks to support her research, which he said was "conscience money."

Judge, Mae Brussell and Don Norton then went back to Judge's apartment where Judge noticed that this fellow was reciting some of Oswald's spiels. Judge and Mae Brussell later compared some of Norton's letters and check signatures with Oswald's signature and could not come up with a comparison.

Now how that makes me sniping, pathetic and nasty I don't know.

I thought you would straighten Tim Gratz out about KK, not attack me.

BK

OK. I thought it was sarcasm. If you read through this thread, though it was formed awhile back, it's pretty nasty.

I'm sorry to accuse you of anything. Just the "wake-up call." I didn't know what that meant. I thought it sounded like you were telling TG not to believe anything or waste his time on my blog. I'm careful about posting photos on this Forum, so I do it on my blog. And I make no money from it. I just want people to see the resemblance between these Don Nortons and Ralph Gebs.

BTW, it seems our Don Norton of Avon Park has a daughter and wife. He looks like a natural redhead to me.

Kathy

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STRANGE DEATHS STUDY –

When Congress established the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) it gave the committee the mandate to investigate any relevant murder or mysterious death, specifically President Kennedy and Martin Luther King.

But there were three murders that weekend in Dallas – the President, police officer J.D. Tippit and Lee Harvey Oswald. During the following years many other witnesses and suspects in the assassination of the president were murdered or died under strange and unusual circumstances.

Many witnesses died or were brutally murdered during the course of the committee's investigation, some shortly before they were to testify under oath.

Most of those who died violently had knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities or had knowledge of the CIA/Mafia plots to kill Fidel Castro.

Texas publisher Penn Jones kept a running records of these deaths in his Midlothian, Texas newspaper, and published their stories in four volumes of his self-published books Forgive My Grief I-IV.

In the trailer at the end of the film Executive Action, a list of the mysterious deaths was listed with a statement from a London actuary that determined the lengthly odds against those people dying naturally in that period of time, implying that there was something sinster involved.

When the committee went to Cuba, Castro himself asked HSCA chairman Louis Stokes about the strange deaths, and Stokes assured Castro that the committee would properly investigate them.

The committee responded to the questions of the strange deaths during their public hearings held in late September, 1978, when HSCA staff member Ms.Jacqueline Hess presented her report on the committee's investigation into the strange deaths (published in Volume IV, p. 455-465) of the HSCA appendix volumes.

[see: Mary Ferrell Archives: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=957&relPageId=459 and

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=957&relPageId=470 ]

They began the session with the introduction into the record of a pamphlet and poster for the movie "Exective Action," whose promotion of the strange deaths called attention to them, much like the trailer for Oliver Stone's "JFK" called attention to the fact that the HSCA sealed its records for fifty years and the resulting public uproar led to the passage of the JFK Act, releasing not only the HSCA records, but all government records related to the assassination.

During its public hearings back in September, 1978 however, when Ms. Hess testified, the committee's witnesses and suspects were dropping like flies, some of them outright murders.

Rather than form a multi-agency Task Force and investigate the common threads among the various murders, the HSCA researchers disproved the movie advertisement that, "xxx"

In her testimony, which only runs about ten pages, including movie promotional exhibits, Ms. Hess convincingly demonstrates how the much hearld actuary, peformed at the request of the London Sunday Times in 1966, was flawed and inaccurate.

Rather than address each of the deaths individually, or conduct a proper investigation into any one death or murder, they had the Congressional Research Service at the Library of Congress compile all newspaper and magazine articles "…concerning those deaths," and evaluates only the known facts.

Ms. Hess said that this "research" indicated that, "…the available evidence does not establish anything about the nature of these deaths which would indicate that the deaths were in some manner either direct or peripheral, caused by the assassination of President Kennedy or any aspect of the subsequent investigation."

The names of those person included in the study were listed for the record at the request of Rep. Edgar (R. Penn.), now a minister.

Edward Benairdes

Albert Guy Bogard,

Bill Chesler

Nicholas J. Chetta

William Hunter

Clyde Johnson

Jim Koethe

Teresa Norton

Earlene Roberts

Harold Russell

April Walle aka Betty McDonald

William Hunter

Thomas Dale Howard

Lee Bowers, Jr.

Hale Boggs,

David Goldstein

FNU Levens

Earlene Roberts,

Howard Russell

Willaim W. Whaley

Dorothy Kilgallen

Apart from the 1966 study, Hess notes that they deviated from the original list to add the names of two witnesses, both mobsters involved in the CIA plots to kill Castro.

Sam Giancana

John Roselli

When Rep. Edgar asked why George DeMohrenschildt's name was not on the list, Hess replied, "His death was one of those which deemed further investigation and became part of a great investigative effort."

Other witnesses who died quite suddenly were former FBI asst-director William Sullivan, Morales, Carlos Prio Soccaras, Francis Gary Powers, Ferenc Nagy, Billy Lovelady, Paul Raordosky, James Hoffa, Manuel Artime,….the list goes on……

Since the public release of the HSCA records with the JFK Act of 1992, millions of pages of documents have been released, yet there seems to be no record of this "great investigative effort" into the "strange deaths" and no further mention in their hearings or reports.

There is a report on the death of Rose Cheramie, which gets special consideration and an acknowledgement that her death was "in some manner, either direct or peripheral, caused by the assassination of President Kennedy."

The HSCA even developed information on the sudden and strange deaths of two persons it sought to question who weren't on any previous list – Edward Voebel and Charles William Thomas.

Voebel was a high school mate and fellow Civil Air Patrol cadet with Oswald in New Orleans. Volume IX (p. 199) of the HSCA reports reads: 9474) The committee sought to locate Edward Voebel to take his testimony, but learned from his father, Sidney Voebel of New Orleans, that his son had died in 1971. (253) Sidney Voebel could not recall what his son had told him regarding his past contacts with Oswald and Ferrie. (254) While stating that he doesn't have any proof," Voebel said he believed that the circumstances surrounding his son's death were "mysterious." (255) He had "died suddenly of a blood clot" at the age of 31, when he suffered an attack of pneumonia."

Voebel's CAP Capt. David Ferrie himself was found dead on February 22, 1967 of a massive brain hemorage. Among his effects were manuscripts and research studies on the means of inducing cancer.

The HSCA Report (Vol.l X, p. 68) also notes that anti-Castro Cuban leader Manuel Artime "…agreed to be interviewed by the committee (45) but, before that was possible, he died of cancer at the age of 45 after a brief illness.(46)…"

Then there's the strange case of Charles William Thomas, a State Department employee stationed in Mexico City who reports information he receives that Oswald attended a party at the home of Sylvia Duran, of the Cuban embassy. Thomas apparently reported this information without knowing its significance, as shortly thereafter he was relieved of his duties, blackballed from acquiring another government or corporate position, and committed suicide.

Edited by William Kelly
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Many thanks to Bill Kelly for that review of the HSCA dipping a tentative toe into the mysterious deaths subtext of the Kennedy assassination.

Kelly’s comment regarding the lack of any evidence that there was a “great investigative effort,” as Ms. Hess put it, into the death of George deM, reminded me that the HSCA report also does NOT include details of its investigation into the death of Dorothy Kilgallen, even though Kilgallen’s name was on the list of those investigated.

When you come to Kilgallen’s name in the body of the report, you will find: “Death #11

Name: Dorothy Kilgallen. This report was forwarded, with attachments, under separate cover at an earlier date.”

I recall writing the National Archives back in 2002, inquiring about the separate report of the HSCA committee regarding the death of Kilgallen, and never received a satisfactory answer. Perhaps somebody on this forum may know where that separate report on Kilgallen can be found. Or, is this, like the deMohrenschildt report, still missing?

Kelly also mentions “There is a report on the death of Rose Cheramie, which gets special consideration and an acknowledgment that her death was ‘in some manner, either direct or peripheral, caused by the assassination of President Kennedy.’"

Is this an HSCA report on Cheramie, separate from the Hess investigation? If so, I’d appreciate knowing where I can find a copy of that report.

I’d like to add that the HSCA team –- who, as Bill Kelly noted, did no original research and relied solely on government documents and published reports – included a recommendation regarding further research regarding some of the deaths. Some of those recommendations were to not waste any further time. But in six of those cases – the deaths of Guy Albert Bogard, Bill Hunter, Hank Killam, Jim Koethe, Teresa Norton/Karen Carlin, and Harold Russell, the researchers said the committee “may wish to consider further investigation,” or words to that effect. In other words, the researchers seemed to be saying, we didn’t have the time or staff to conduct field investigations, and in some of these cases, at least, further, original, research might be fruitful.

I don’t think the committee ever followed up on any of those recommendations.

Bob Cox

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Many thanks to Bill Kelly for that review of the HSCA dipping a tentative toe into the mysterious deaths subtext of the Kennedy assassination.

Hi Bob,

I'm glad somebody got something out of it.

I don't have anything on Kilgallen - except its the same MO as Lisa Howard.

As for HSCA Rose Cheramie special report, it's in Vol. X - p. 186, and can be found at Mary Ferrell Archives (thanks Rex).

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=156201

And Bob,

Did have you ever been associated with Westword - the free tabloid out of Denver?

BK

Kelly's comment regarding the lack of any evidence that there was a "great investigative effort," as Ms. Hess put it, into the death of George deM, reminded me that the HSCA report also does NOT include details of its investigation into the death of Dorothy Kilgallen, even though Kilgallen's name was on the list of those investigated.

When you come to Kilgallen's name in the body of the report, you will find: "Death #11

Name: Dorothy Kilgallen. This report was forwarded, with attachments, under separate cover at an earlier date."

I recall writing the National Archives back in 2002, inquiring about the separate report of the HSCA committee regarding the death of Kilgallen, and never received a satisfactory answer. Perhaps somebody on this forum may know where that separate report on Kilgallen can be found. Or, is this, like the deMohrenschildt report, still missing?

Kelly also mentions "There is a report on the death of Rose Cheramie, which gets special consideration and an acknowledgment that her death was 'in some manner, either direct or peripheral, caused by the assassination of President Kennedy.'"

Is this an HSCA report on Cheramie, separate from the Hess investigation? If so, I'd appreciate knowing where I can find a copy of that report.

I'd like to add that the HSCA team –- who, as Bill Kelly noted, did no original research and relied solely on government documents and published reports – included a recommendation regarding further research regarding some of the deaths. Some of those recommendations were to not waste any further time. But in six of those cases – the deaths of Guy Albert Bogard, Bill Hunter, Hank Killam, Jim Koethe, Teresa Norton/Karen Carlin, and Harold Russell, the researchers said the committee "may wish to consider further investigation," or words to that effect. In other words, the researchers seemed to be saying, we didn't have the time or staff to conduct field investigations, and in some of these cases, at least, further, original, research might be fruitful.

I don't think the committee ever followed up on any of those recommendations.

Bob Cox

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  • 1 month later...
Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

Recently, I found out that on the Assassination weekend, Karyn Kupcinet with friends and mobster Paul "Red" Dorfman were both in Palm Springs. While there, Dorfman was tracked down by Irv Kupcinet who asked about Ruby shooting Oswald. Dorfman said, "Sparky is the last guy you'd expect to do this. He was a nebbish sort of guy."

I think Dorfman was unnerved a bit by Irv's tenaciousness and eagerness. I think possibly Dorfman saw Karyn in Palm Springs that weekend. And maybe an idea sprung to mind about keeping Irv Kupcinet away from Ruby and the Chicago angle of the assassination. To kill Kupcinet would be too obvious. But to kill his daughter, whom every Chicagoan knew, would take away any interest Irv would have about Ruby. He would be in no condition to investigate the Chicago Mob. Possibly, a plan was afoot to commit an outrageous crime in Chicago, sometime after the assassination, to get the heat off the Mob. And Dorfman decided to kill Karyn to shock all of Chicago. Possibly, there'd be talk of nothing else. I myself was shocked when I looked at microfilmed Chicago Tribune and saw the awful, large black headline (from memory): KUPCINET GIRL DEAD. My stomach knotted.

That is the latest re the Kennedy theory. She did not have foreknowledge and neither did her father. Her father hadn't seen Ruby in decades. Irv knew nothing about the assassination before it happened. IMO it was to shock Chicago.

Kathy

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Recently, I found out that on the Assassination weekend, Karyn Kupcinet with friends and mobster Paul "Red" Dorfman were both in Palm Springs. While there, Dorfman was tracked down by Irv Kupcinet who asked about Ruby shooting Oswald. Dorfman said, "Sparky is the last guy you'd expect to do this. He was a nebbish sort of guy."

=

Kathy:

The theory that Karyn was offed by the mob to cool the investigative ardor of her father is one I hadn't heard before. I'm wondering about your sources for the info regarding the visits to Palm Springs (concurrent, I assume, but not connected) by Kupcinet and Dorfman , and also regarding the info about the Dorfman-Irv Kupcinet conversation. Could you supply those sources? Thanks.

Bob Cox

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Recently, I found out that on the Assassination weekend, Karyn Kupcinet with friends and mobster Paul "Red" Dorfman were both in Palm Springs. While there, Dorfman was tracked down by Irv Kupcinet who asked about Ruby shooting Oswald. Dorfman said, "Sparky is the last guy you'd expect to do this. He was a nebbish sort of guy."

=

Kathy:

The theory that Karyn was offed by the mob to cool the investigative ardor of her father is one I hadn't heard before. I'm wondering about your sources for the info regarding the visits to Palm Springs (concurrent, I assume, but not connected) by Kupcinet and Dorfman , and also regarding the info about the Dorfman-Irv Kupcinet conversation. Could you supply those sources? Thanks.

Bob Cox

Dear Bob,

I am all too happy to give you the sources. In Kup: a Man, an Era, a City, Irv Kupcinet wrote that after Ruby shot Oswald he tracked down Paul "Red" Dorfman at Palm Springs. Page 176 Hardcover. Bonus Books, 1988

Karyn went with Andrew Prine, Lynn Loring and Earl Holliman to Palm Springs because of Kennedy's assassination. Page 69, Crime Wave, "The Glamour Jungle" by James Ellroy. Softback, Vintage Crime. Also "The Glamour Jungle" by James Ellroy in GQ, December, 1998

There is a photo of the 2 couples in Palm Springs at: thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com Scroll down a bit.

Kathy

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  • 1 year later...
Guest Tom Scully
Recently, I found out that on the Assassination weekend, Karyn Kupcinet with friends and mobster Paul "Red" Dorfman were both in Palm Springs. While there, Dorfman was tracked down by Irv Kupcinet who asked about Ruby shooting Oswald. Dorfman said, "Sparky is the last guy you'd expect to do this. He was a nebbish sort of guy."

=

Kathy:

The theory that Karyn was offed by the mob to cool the investigative ardor of her father is one I hadn't heard before. I'm wondering about your sources for the info regarding the visits to Palm Springs (concurrent, I assume, but not connected) by Kupcinet and Dorfman , and also regarding the info about the Dorfman-Irv Kupcinet conversation. Could you supply those sources? Thanks.

Bob Cox

Dear Bob,

I am all too happy to give you the sources. In Kup: a Man, an Era, a City, Irv Kupcinet wrote that after Ruby shot Oswald he tracked down Paul "Red" Dorfman at Palm Springs. Page 176 Hardcover. Bonus Books, 1988

Karyn went with Andrew Prine, Lynn Loring and Earl Holliman to Palm Springs because of Kennedy's assassination. Page 69, Crime Wave, "The Glamour Jungle" by James Ellroy. Softback, Vintage Crime. Also "The Glamour Jungle" by James Ellroy in GQ, December, 1998

There is a photo of the 2 couples in Palm Springs at: thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com Scroll down a bit.

Kathy

Responding to Linda Minor's polite, recent post; http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=160645

....and Kathy's very valuable one, displayed above, my qiestion is, why does it have to be made even harder than it already is? Aren't coincidences alone, enough to impede and confuse, without bringing, for example, specualtion about telephone calls for "occult purposes" as in the discussion Linda is responding to in the post I linked to?

I think Penn Jones made a poorly supported link between the "Oxnard Call", and the death of Karyn Kupcinet. There is circumstantial evidence still linking Karyn's death and the deaths of other people associated with the Oswald and JFK shootings, with a possible conspiracy involving Jack Ruby. They are straightforward links that either are seemingly too numerous random coincidences, or they are material leads to solving the crime of conspiracy.

My last two posts are directly related to Irv Kupcinet's connections to Jack Ruby, and to Henry Crown and Patrick Hoy of General Dynamics. In one post, I presented the relationships between Earl Warren and Henry Crown that may have contributed to Warren's "selling" the other Commissioners on the idea of appointing Henry Crown's attorney, Albert Jenner, as senior assistant counsel on the WC.

Here are some of the Ruby related deaths, vs. a "once over" of people present who did not die:

Too many who approached Jack Ruby's role in an inquisitive

way...Kupcinet through his daughter, Karyn, Kilgallen, and the

11/24/63 "guests" of George Senator st Jack Ruby's apartment, Hunter,

Koethe, and Howard...met a soon and untimely death.

Those untouched who are close to Ruby or to the WC, and to one or

more of the untimely dead are; Paul Dorfman, Ruby's roommate, George Senator, and John Daly....

Some facts about Henry Crown's son, and his in-laws, the family of theatre and hotel magnate, J. Meyer Schine

of Gloversville NY:

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=ren...;hl=en&um=1

MISS RENEE SCHINE BECOMES A BRIDE; Married to Lester Crown of...

New York Times - Dec 29, 1950

The marriage of Miss Renee Helene Schine, daughter of Mr. and

Mrs. J. Myer Schine of New York and Gloversville, N.Y., to Lester

Crown, son of Col. ...

http://books.google.com/books?q=%22george%...sa=N&tab=np

Investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy:

Hearings ...‎ - Page 433

by United States Warren Commission - 1964

George Senator stated that he was born of Jewish parents at

Gloversville, New York on September 4, 1913. He has one brother

living in ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloversville,_New_York

Gloversville is a city in Fulton County, New York, that was once

the hub of America's glovemaking industry. In 2000, it had a

population of 15,413....

....This is also the main headquarters for the Schine movie

industry. They revered The Glove Theatre as the favorite of all of

the movie houses that they owned. Hollywood movies would

sometimes premier in Gloversville, before they were opened in

California....

(Renee Schine's brother, G. David Schine and

his close mentor, Roy Cohn, were bitter political enemies of RFK,

from 1954. David Schine had been the GM of the Schine family

onwned Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, a Schine owned hotel when RFK was shot in it's basement pantry in June, 1968.)

McAdam's assures us there is nothing going on in the death of Dorothy Kilgallen.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death4.htm

"A member for years of the panel on the nationwide CBS TV

show "What's My Line," Miss Kilgallen appeared with the panel last

night.

She was at her usual best, asking probing questions and guessing the

occupation of two of the five persons who appeared on the show.

"She was in excellent spirits and, as usual, right on the ball," said John Daly, moderator of the show.

"To John Daly, 51, imperturbable moderator of CBS's What's My Line?, and Virginia Warren Daly, 37,

eldest daughter of Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl ..."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,834752,00.html

John C. Daly married Virginia Warren in Dec., 1960, after she spent years as a social escort to her

father's "old friend" and Henry Crown's principle partner, Conrad N. Hilton. Crown included Virginia Warren

in an introduction of his Empire State Building directors and their wives, to Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip,

when they visited the NYC landmark in the late 1950's.

Daly, host of "What' my line from 1950 to 1967, served as VP in charge of ABC News, and as head of Voice of America.

His father-in-law, Earl Warren, in November 1965, had to be curious about what Jack Ruby had revealed to Dorothy Kilgallen

in their half hour alone together.

If Paul Dorfman was giving Irv Kupcinet a message in reaction to Kupcinet's call to him about Ruby, by killing Karyn Kupcinet,

it worked because Kupcinet stopped asking questions or including any mention of Ruby in his columns after November 25. 1963.

The relationship between the Crown's and their in-laws, the Schines, in the shootings of both Kennedy brothers are circumstantial

and numerous. Gloversville is a small town. Ruby's roommate George Senator, went back there to live for a time in 1934, and

attended school until grade eight there. I grew up in a slightly less populous town, and everybody knew everybody.

Edited by Tom Scully
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