The Head Shot

[Guest JFKAssassinationNut]

Good afternoon,

I am 150% sure that I agree with the findings that JFK was struck in the right temple from a bullet fired from the front that drove him into the back seat of the Limo. And I am also in agreement that there were shooters on the Grassy Knoll as per the Robert Groden produced JFK: A CASE FOR CONSPIRACY implies. On a trip to Dealey Plaza recently, I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Groden up on The Grassy Knoll and had my picture taken with him, it was a thrill I shall never forget BUT I failed to really discuss my dismay because there were others who wanted to say hello but in his DVD, he lists three possible shooters on the knoll:

1. The "Black Dog Man" behind the Retaining Wall in front of the picket fence

2. "Badgeman" further back of the "Back Dog Man" behind the picket fence

3. The shape of a man behind the picket fence about 20 feet from the corner by the tree.

Now all of these shooters is particularly disturbing to me because of one man....Gordon Arnold, who, according to THE MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY, was present on the Grassy Knoll to the right of "Badgeman" in the Moorman Photo, now one of my questions is Could Gordon Arnold have been mistaken for The "Black Dog Man"? because of his approximate position on the Knoll, it closely puts the "Black Dog Man" in the same position or because it would seem to me that these three possible shooters were doing their dirty deed with Arnold Present on the Knoll?...Something aint right here. His story about feeling a shot go by his ear doesn't wash either...because if a witness was that close to shooters who didn't want to be recognized, why would Gordon Arnold be alive to tell his story?, he should have been killed along with all the other witnesses who died mysteriously who probably knew less than Arnold did.

My Next problem with all of these shooters is TRAJECTORY of the fatal head shot, I was up on the Knoll behind the fence and near the wall and in relation to Z313, I don't see any way that any shot from the knoll location of these three shooters could have produced the front to back wounds in Kennedy...NOT that I do not believe he was shot from the front, I just question FROM WHERE.

JFK Assassination Nut

[Wim Dankbaar]

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/headshot.htm

[Jim Hackett II]

I believe that the various features of Dealy Plaza have been moved and changed since fall 1963, and that it is provable that the infamous X that supposedly marks the position of the President at Z frame 313 is WRONG, I submit this page.

I pretty much agree with all it conveys.

http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/park/1097/storm.html

Also Tom Wilson's work supports this work also.

However this does not mean I don't accept the idea of mutiple other shooters on the grassy knoll too.

Jim Hackett II

Edited May 8, 2004 by Jim Hackett II

[Lee Forman]

Hello!

I am struggling with this same problem.

It's my firm opinion that the first shot to strike Kennedy came from the front, penetrated the windshield, and hit him in the throat. This shot was not fired from the 'North' or Grassy Knoll. That's my opinion, and I'll tell you why.

- Files says he only fired one shot. Even if you discredit his story, the fatal shot was a sabot, dumdum or a loaded 'exploding bullet.' The front throat wound was of a small caliber, due to the size [3 - 5mm] entrance wound, and no apparent exit. Badgeman, whether or not it was Files, couldn't have changed weapons. Files claims he was the only shooter.

- Blackdog man - I agree, it's a puzzle, but I don't think he has to be anything other than a witness running. There were people up there, and at the time of the shooting, someone smashed a coke bottle against the wall. Would you do that if you were the shooter?

- Tosh Plumlee's abort mission - he was seeking a. triangulation, b. a 3-man shooter team, and c. the area a sniper would have selected to line up the target it his crosshairs. Plumlee basically relates that a sniper wouldn't be continually following a moving target, but would essentially remain as stationary as possible, waiting for the target to cross his range of fire. On Wim Dankbaar's site, www.jfkmurdersolved.com

- The windshield, destroyed by the SS [plenty of material on this, but I believe I read the majority of it in Murder in Dealey Plaza by Fetzer, who I am also trying to get to join the forum], was replaced by one that didn't have a pass through shot, only a crack, and the crack was from damage to the inside. The original windshield, per witnesses, had a hole in it large enough to pass a pencil through.

- If you draw a line across Dealey Plaza, lining up the hole in the windshield at the time of the shot [relatively speaking, since this is hard to identify with the extant version of the Z-film], you get a shot from the South Knoll. Try it - I did.

- I checked the south knoll myself, and there are at least 2 areas at the top from which this shot could have been taken. If a silencer was used, the cops on the bridge wouldn't even have noticed.

- Cops on the bridge. One was Roscoe White. He's been proven to be a very shaky character. I don't recall who the other cop was, but there appeared to have been widespread badness in the Dallas Police department at that time.

- Witnesses that saw men with long rifles on the overpass prior to the assassination.

- Triangulation. People have spoken about triangulation being a crucial factor in this type of operation - as per the manual [ZRIFLE, whatever]. DalTex, Grassy Knoll and Dallas Book Depository don't give you real tirangulation. A south knoll shot does however.

- Curry's report on the dictabelt - get a man up on the overpass and see what the hell is going on up there - why?

- Tosh Plumlee's account that a bullet seemed to come from over his head. Photographic evidence appears to support his having been present at the time of the assassination, at the location he claimed - on the south knoll, but not at the top, close to the railroad bridge.

- One more - if you've ever been there, there is a parking lot directly above the south knoll. One wouldn't need to necessarily be directly at the overpass bridge to make the shot. You could be a little further down in the parking lot area, and then you'd be almost directly across from the North knoll!

- Okay, one more one more - too many shooters and unknown locations. According to Chauncey Holt, again on Wim's site, Charles Harrelson, Woody's pop, was there. He was a marksman - what was his mission if he wasn't a shooter? But he wasn't Badgeman, DalTex, County Records or Dallas Book, from everything I've surmised. Jack Lawrence, pale and vomiting. Another possible shooter - from where?

Anyway, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. South Knoll shot, hit Kennedy in the throat through the windshield.

Kind regards,

Lee Forman

P.S. Dump the storm drains, the angle is all wrong. And the Umbrella Man firing a secret weapon at a moving target, even at that range, a flachette filled with a paralysis chemical - is just too hard to credit. Occam's razor.

[Lee Forman]

Sorry - I wrote that last piece in about 5 minutes - many typos and a few incomplete thoughts.

Another - Pick-up man. He was loading something into his truck, parked closer to the south knoll - what was it? See Jack White's work on pick-up man, the guy who doesn't exist in the extant Z-Film. You can catch it in Murder in Dealey Plaza by James Fetzer. Or Jack can comment himself on this bizarre cover-up. Now you see him, now you don't. Once it was a pick-up with an open bed, and a man was placing something in the bed, now it's capped and there's no one around. Why take the time to cover it up, if there wasn't something that you didn't want seen, like a shooter with a rifle?

Last - if you credit Files, there's no room for 2 shooters from behind the picket fence. Who would be stupid enough to take up a position in front of the fence and behind the wall? There'd be too many witnesses.

If someone could get a copy of the original Zapruder film, I believe there may be some evidence available that would confirm this fact. From what I've read, the undoctored version shows the first hit. HL Hunt had his copy - Where is it now? Can it be subpoenaed?

I'm done for now as relates to the first shot to hit Kennedy. Frontal shot, from the South Knoll area, penetrated the windshield, hit the President in the throat. Possibly fired by either Charles Harrelson, or Jack Lawrence.

- lee

[Jim Hackett II]

Lee:

Sir you raise important questions about what really went on on the knoll.

The knoll is IN MY OPINION one of many positions, one of the BEST shooting positions in the whole arena of Dealy Plaza.

I just wonder though if some ex military intelligence asset is not or hasn't laughed himself silly at all the confusion wrought from all the contradictions and open questions.

Not that we should let this idea halt our own inquiries, I just mean that the obfuscation and confusion is a concrete part of the after action cover ops.

As for identities of the shooters, I really hope that someday we can know but I doubt we ever will.

So many have been "offered" as nominated or confessed as it makes a huge list.

The two I have the least doubts about are Mr. Harrelson, because of anthropological examination/comparisons by many to include Mr. Gary Shaw, and Mr. Jack Lawrence because of his suspicious actions and disappearance in the days of and immediately after the MURDER.

I guess too my interest falls to the jerks that empowered the gunmen as I know hired guns can be hired at any time. The underlings know very little about the empowerment and top level of the plot, I think.

I would not discount the great points you make and I too think Jim Fetzer's books are very important. MDIP in particular, as it shreds the WCReport so completely and so convincingly.

Best Regards

Jim Hackett II

Edited May 9, 2004 by Jim Hackett II

[Ed O'Hagan]

http://home.cogeco.ca/~eohagan/my_jfk_new_amend_00000e.htm

[Lee Forman]

One more response, geared more towards the original question concerning trajectory and the fatal head shot.

Let's assume James E. Files is credible. The extant Zapruder Film, doctored or not, does lend visual evidence of an impact from the rear, from a shot striking the President in the back of his head, sending his head forward for a fraction of a second, before being violently impacted from the front, and throwing the head backwards. Files says that he fired only because he was concerned that the job was incomplete, and later was derided by Roselli for having fired at all, as [if it was Roselli, firing from DalTex] the shot to the back of the head would most likely have resulted in a fatality.

I've seen some work by a researcher [name escapes me] on Nigel Turner's program, 'The Men who killed Kennedy,' who implies a storm drain shot from a computer analyzed version of the wounds. I disagree, and here's why:

Aside from the angle required for this shot, assuming Files is credible, and that the frontal movement of the President's head was in fact from a shot impacting the rear of his head, we've got 2 separate wounds.

Furthermore, even if we don't agree that Files was the shooter, you have Rivels work in which it was claimed a frangible bullet had been used. In 'The men who killed Kennedy,' Rivel has an interview with 'Michel,' in which the claim is made that there was a French shooter using a frangible bullet. Michel goes on to say 'that it makes a bigger hole in the body' and that 'it flattens out leaving no trace.' I don't know what would be contained in such a bullet, but mercury sounds likely.

Files has his bullet especially packed with a payload of mercury. The resulting damage that would have been caused by this form of payload is a true challenge of physics! You'd need to engage a true specialist to demonstrate how mercury would move in such an instance - would it continue in one direction, or in many different directions simultaneously upon impact? If you did have a rear wound caused by a high velocity bullet [standard or sabot], coupled with a missile containing a mercury payload, you'd have exactly what we see today: confusion over the trajectory of such a wound from the massive, 'abnormal' damage that occurred.

I've seen the studies of various shots being fired into vegetables and fruit, etc., on Wim's site, which he provided the link to earlier. What we'd really need to see to offer incontravertible scientific evidence would be a repeat of the event, [with the use of a cadaver preferrably - I'm not volunteering], the appropriate angles and distances, a high velocity shell being fired from the rear, and a mercury packed dumdum being fired from the front right. If it's reproduceable, you'd have additional credence for both a Grassy Knoll shooter, an exploding bullet, and a shot from Daltex at the rear.

Here's a related question: Would RFK, in an altruistic effort to send his brother to hi final resting place at sea, have given the order to remove JFKs brain, and have it buried at sea along with the bronze coffin? the JFKLancer link.

http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/coffin.html

If the brain had been medically observed by professional pathologists, would they have found traces of mercury throughout?

Given the material I have seen, I believe its highly possible that these 2 factors have led to confusion [aside from the coverup material] over this shot: There were in fact 2 direct hits to the President's head which occurred almost simultaneously, and that the 'exploding' bullet may have contained mercury, which would not have reacted in the way a normal metal would have upon impact - which is what a pathologist is accustomed to seeing [hard metals like copper, brass, nickel, alloids, etc.], as this type of weapon is highly illegal, and I've never heard of an instance before or since myself in which this technology was deployed.

Lee

[Lee Forman]

Thanks Jim!

Agreed!

It wasn't until after the events of 9/11 that I recognized how intelligence operations are carried out. The use of 'cells' and 'need to know' originally to me was a stunning feat of evil genius. Since then, in my reading, I have come to appreciate the fact that this is not a new technique. The shooters in the case would most likely;

a. Not have known whether or not there were other shooters, or their identities, and

b. Would not know who was pushing the buttons, beyond their primary contact/contract.

I believe it was either Files or Plumlee that said 'Need to know' meant, 'You don't ask.' You have an assignment, and you carry it out.

Knowing who the shooters were only gets us to level One. It's working backwards to get to the top that presents the genuine challenge.

- lee

[Wim Dankbaar]

I believe it was either Files or Plumlee that said 'Need to know' meant, 'You don't ask.' You have an assignment, and you carry it out.

Knowing who the shooters were only gets us to level One. It's working backwards to get to the top that presents the genuine challenge.

- lee

JF – It very well could be. It’s very possible that Sam Giancana and David Phillips could have been talking. But like I say, again: If I know everybody in that area and I get stopped, I can name every shooter there if there is other shooters there. I’m not saying there is other shooters, what I am saying is this: I have no need to know of everybody that is involved in an operation. What purpose would that serve? That’s like me going into a communist country on a covert operation and me knowing everybody, all the other agents that are there in that field working. And if I get captured, they all get executed! So the same thing goes when it comes down to crime. You try to keep your people the least bit to know as possible.

[Bernice Moore]

Lee,

You may be interested in more information about Thomas Wilson...

and his theorys..on the tape.TMWKK....

It has been mentioned that his work, and has not been discovered

since his death....

Regards..B

http://www.jfk-assassination.net/tom_wilson.htm

Here are two attached photos of the sewer, on Elm St. taken in 1967.

[Jim Hackett II]

To ALL:

The page Bernice linked to:

This page seems to me to be OH SO typical of McMadman Nolan, to attack persons and not deal with the work or research.

Also I find it typical that McNolan attacks a dead man that can't defend his work or himself.

In short McMadman is a punk.

The JFK case is just too important to "play" with or to indulge in meaningless stuff like his page does.

We can all get heated in discussion and that is good as it lends a critical review OF RESEARCH, but when it gets to put down of persons and such, What good can that do.

It is impossible to advance any case or research when this atmosphere poisons the exchange.

Or to take another tack on the idea, what did he prove or ably say about Thomas Wilson that was really fit for discussion? Very Little.

It is just disgusting.

"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep..."--James Hepburn

Borrowed from another researcher for just this one post. Beg Pardon.

Best Regards to All

Jim Hackett II

Edited May 11, 2004 by Jim Hackett II

[Larry Peters]

http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/park/1097/storm.html

The above web page telling of a shot from the sewer drain looks good on paper, but is in serious error when actually seen by going to Dealey Plaza. Robert Groden shows the view from the sewer drain in his new booklet "JFK-The Case For Conspiracy"/page 42. Groden shows beyond a doubt that the limo would have had to of rolled towards the triple underpass another fifty four feet beyond the kill shot just to have had a view of Kennedy from that sewer drain.

On Lancer there is an overlay of Moorman's photo that was placed over a recent photo taken from where Mary stood when she took her famous number five Polaroid. That overlay shows that Kennedy was just about six to 12 inches west of the white "X" on the street when Mary took her photograph. Considering the limo rolled forward from Z313 to Z315.6 (when Mary snapped her camera shutter), then Groden's white "X" isn't as far off as some may think. I regret that I cannot post an image on this site or I would be happy to share the one seen at Lancer with everyone. Because Lancer is having forum server problems at the moment, I cannot locate the URL that shows the proper images for this topic.

[Bernice Moore]

Hello All:

Jim, in mighty fine form there... ...McAdams can be very harsh in his

discord...makes me wonder why?.. . You have to read the other side of the coin as well..to be aware of the truth....as we have learned the hard way I might add...

I have no set opinion, on where all the shots came from, there were many, but after searching, and watching the TMWKK tape, and reading what is available, it was possible..a shot from the sewer..

The photo of the sewer posted above is what they present today to convince anyone new to the research that it was not so....The opening in 1963 was twice as high as it is to day......and a grown

man, could stand in such easily, then proceed to run out the sewer , beyond the Underpass to the Trinity

River area....and walk out the huge sewer entrance....Penn Jones and Jack Brazil, and his military crew did this several

times...it worked..

Also there were sewer openings, both on the north and south sides of the Overpass, just into where the wooden fence begins, beyond the corner,hidden from sight from those on the Overpass, these were

also connected to the sewer system than ran to the Trinity, high enough for men to run in and out of somewhat stooped, but, also able to stand up in for a shot.....one book on this subject is " Triangle of Fire"...by Bob Goodman...

There are photos. The sewer systems ran, all under that area and further....one ran, another bit from Penn Jones, to

the back of the DPD, to a sewer entrance, that you would climb in and out of, like the others....I shall send John some photos for all to see, and perhaps they will be self explanatory.....also keep in mind there are several more inches of asphalt that has been added to Elm St..since that time......

It has always been said, that Tom's work has disappeared, and it has, but I have found on the web, that he did

give a copy of all to the Review Board Staff in 1998.....Yes, I can just imagine it being available to anyone...?? he also appears in TMWKK tapes...with quite the presentation.....See below....I do not know if some

one shot from this position that day, but Tom does present a strong case for the

direction of a shot to the head from this angle......The Dealey area was the perfect

"Crossfire"...they couldn't go wrong, and they knew it....

................................................................................

..................................

from "The Truth Shall Make You Free" episode TMWKK..a review

""The first was Tom Wilson - with 30 years experience using imaging and

photonics techniques in the stell industry. He has now applied this

techniques - along with computer enhancement - to examine again the

Zapruder film. What was revealed - using high resolution pixel imaging

and Fourier analysis - was nothing short of amazing. In the head shot

frame - for example - one could actually see, with Wilson's techniques-

the image of the bullet, inside JFK's skull and its *track* moving from

the FRONT to the REAR of the skull. Undeniable high level, high quality

evidence that the shot did indeed come from the front - as we have been

maintaining all along. Showing the detailed iamgery, Wilson himself

found his eyes welling with tears. One could sense his painful awareness

of the lies and distortions we've been fed all these years, co-mingling

with his frustration that up to now none of 'officialdom' has taken his

work seriously or at least tried to replicate it.

He also indicated that on going to Dealey Plaza and attempting to

reconstruct the placement of all key people, etc. he could not get

things to fit - with the motion of the bullet seen in his imagery.

However, on further inspection - and on locating a storm sewer cover at

the side of Elm St. - he found that the problem was solved and indeed

the shot could only have been made from that location (the fatal head

shot).

This was confirmed by Jack Brazil and a military team he put together in

1992, who found:

a) a man could easily fit inside the storm sewer drain and have an open

view onto Elm St. and a good shot at the motorcade.

the man could easily make his escape (in something like 20-23

minutes) by following out the storm sewer to the Trinity River - making

his way clear and free.

The scenes tracing the sewer escape route were sobering indeed - and

show that indeed, the killing could be carried out as a perfect crime,

with the perpetrators getting away scott free.

After the Brazil demo, Tom Wilson was seen again - now examining the

autopsy photos with his techniques and comparing them with the

photonic/pixel densities in the head of JFK as disclosed in the pristine

Mary Moorman photo (aimed toward the GK, JFK's head visible from the

rear).

His imaging analysis showed where genuine human tissue was located in

the autopsy film- by comparing it with pixel densities in the

pre-autopsy condition (as exposed from the Moorman film). What was

revealed was nothing less than startling: massive sections of 'fake'

material covering nearly the entire rear of JFK's head (Wilson referred

to it was Mortician's plaster). This same material was also used in the

front of the head, to cover the entrance wound there.

Wilson's fine work, and detailed analysis, showed also what many of us

have been saying all along - that the autopsy photos are indeed fakes.""

................................................................................

....................

. Thomas W. Wilson......Review Board 1998.....

On September 11, 1998, Mr. Thomas W. Wilson of Pennsylvania made a presentation to Review Board staff summarizing his eight years of research into the authenticity and significance of the JFK autopsy images and the Zapruder film, and additional study of the Mary Moorman Polaroid photograph, using "photonics" as a technological tool.

Mr. Wilson donated the following materials to the JFK Collection: (1) a 20-page "executive summary" of his work; (2) a graphic presentation of Mr. Wilson's research conclusions about President Kennedy's head wounds, using "A.D.A.M." software to display his conclusions; (3) a 20-minute audiotape of a discussion between Mr. Wilson and former Navy x-ray technician Jerrol Custer, dated 3/28/98; and (4) a commercially sold videotape summarizing his work.

Mr. Wilson believes he possesses a considerable amount of scientific and physical evidence, accumulated over eight years (from 1988-1996), proving his contention that President Kennedy was shot from the front, not from behind. He is willing to donate all of this material to the JFK Collection if FBI or Department of Justice officials will first allow him to make his full two-day presentation on the evidence he has collected regarding the Moorman photograph, the Zapruder film, and the autopsy photographs of President Kennedy.

................................................................................

....

Tom died a few years ago....

This I know is review for you Jim, but I thought all of us can use such ,I know I do, often..

Thanks for your time...Regards.....B

Edited May 16, 2004 by Bernice Moore

[Lee Forman]

Hello Bernice!

I concede on many of your points, including the size of the opening of the drain, etc.

- I do not know what the height of the Lincoln was, but would caution that the photo detailed may not in fact be high enough for a comparison.

- Back to the original argument as relates to trajectory. Which shot would have come from the storm drain?

I believe that Tom Wilson's work would have us believe that it was a single shot - the head shot. This despite a great amount of evidence otherwise - smoke on the knoll, witnesses, Hill, Files, Ed Hoffman, Lee Bowers, etc.

As I postulated earlier, and I mean no disrespect to the man, when you view the wounds suffered to Kennedy's head as the means to determine trajectory, you have to take into account 2 critical pieces of [contested] evidence:

1. Was there impact to the back of the President's head from a rear shot [Depository, DalTex, Records building, etc.] almost simultaneous with the frontal killing blow? -- As evidenced in Zapruder, and as accounted by Files.

2. How would a dumdum / frangible / sabot / mercury loaded high velocity bullet act upon impact? If it was shell containing a mercury payload, as accounted by Files, would 100% of the mercury simply seek the easiest path of exit? Or would it splatter upon impact, and create a trauma that would make the wound more dificult to analyze? With say, 65% continuing along the line of trajectory, so that the exit threw brain matter 'back and to the left.'

Here's a combination: Let's say that there was a shot that struck Kennedy's head almost precisely prior to the fatal head shot. Let's say it was a loaded shell, containing mercury. Wouldn't the mercury seek the path of least resistance, and blow the area of the other bullet's entry point wide open?

I don't credit the storm drain shot. There was sufficient security involved from all accounts to protect and secure the knoll. Also, from that angle, the top of Kennedy's skull would have lifted right off, if the entry was through the temple.

- lee