How good were the shooters in DP?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mark;

Although fully aware that in all probability you (& most others) will neither accept nor believe it, for the record:

1. There was only ONE shooter.

2. Despite what many will state to the contrary, the 6.5mm Carcano Rifle (in relatively good condition), coupled with the WCC 6.5mm ammo, is a deadly combination.

Accuracy wise, the US Army Ballistics Research Laboratory compared the accuracy as being equivelant to our current US military weapons.

Armed with "match" quality weapons, the Italian Olympics Team had always done quite well and ranked quite high in Olympics Competition, with this weapon.

3. The planning was in fact quite thorough, which included the equi-distant yellow marks painted onto the curb of Elm Street through the "Kill Zone". Which, any shooter would easily recognize as "Range Markers".

Many will attempt to "Sell" this off as some sort of traffic control marking which was utilized by the Dallas Street Department.

Sounds good! However, since these yellow marks were painted only on the downrange & visible (from the TSDB) side of Elm St, and were exactly in the kill zone, and there were no other similar stripes painted onto the curbs of any other streets anywhere in the vicinity, then the "Traffic Control" scenario is a no-floater.

One could add to this the unconfirmed rumor that (I believe it was Jean Hill) got some of this yellow paint on her shoe, from it's being so freshly painted, and the purpose of these yellow marks becomes even more evident.

4. Were we to attempt to "stuff" all three shots fired in to the WC scenario with the Z-312/313 head shot being the Last/Final shot of the three, then the shooting sequence would obviously have to be rushed.

In that regard, exactly why would anyone believe much of anything as stated by the WC?

The Z-312/313 head shot being the SECOND shot, thereby gave the shooter, approximately 5.8 seconds from first shot to second shot.--------Run that one by your "Experts" and see how difficult they claim it is.

Thereafter, the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot came about, just about as fast as the weapon could be operated, which is of course in the 2.3 (+/-) interval, for a total shooting time of approximately 8.1 to 8.4 seconds.

Give that data to any true "shooter", and you may find that all of the garbage relative to the impossibility of the shots will go back into the garbage can.

In conclusion, anyone who attempts to resolve the issues by searching for the mythical "multiple assassin", will, if age permits, be here for another 40 + years.

The shooting sequence was not difficult, even without the range markers/aka yellow stripes.

The weapon and ammo were entirely capable of the accuracy which it achieved, which by the way was a relatively short distance.

The "target" in moving away from the shooter, virtually guaranteed a "hit", however one must also note that the second shot/aka Z-312/313 shot to the Cowlick area of the back of the head almost went high.

Since you claim to not be a "shooter", then might I recommend that you read up on the works of those such as Ayoob Massad in "AMERICAN HANDGUNNER" magazine.

And, even the resident Chiropractor on the John McAdams site, with relatively little experience, has managed to get off three shots in the 5.8 to 5.9 second time of the WC scenario.

So, would the shooting sequence, as presented by the WC be somewhat difficult?------Yes

Exactly why was it that you believed this BS in the first place?

As a final comment, might I recommend the 10 pages of the WC "circular reasoning" which deals with the "SHOT THAT MISSED", when in fact, other than the fragment strike on the curbe (Tague), there is no indication of any shot having missed.

The "Magic Bullet" did not miss.----Neither is it CE399, as CE399 has not pulled a disappearing act.

Tom

Here's Hoover's version of the shooting event.

How in the world did Hoover come to the conclusion that Connally got in between the shooter and JFK?

He is saying JFK would have been shot 3 times, if Connally had not turned around, thereby placing himself between the shooter and JFK, right?

So, how do we have shots coming from the front, and from the rear, with only one shooter?

I know enough to know that nobody is ever going to admit what really happened in Dallas that day.

One thing is very clear. We are being lied to, have been lied to, and will continue to be lied to about that days events.

Once convinced of the truth of that statement....What else needs to be said regarding what happened in Texas that day?

Look where we are now. A Texan running our country into the ground.

Bleeding our economy, and mortgaging our very future, to overfill the pockets of people who already have more money than they know what to do with.

JFK was going to put an end to the Federal Reserve System.

He was ridding our nation of the parasites who print our "money", at no more cost to them than the price of ink and paper, and who then "loan" this worthless paper to our govt. at face value PLUS INTEREST!

Here's the trick... The interest being charged? It is never printed as money. The result? Never ending inflation.

We are now 8 trillion dollars in debt. The first Bush (with Reagan), for the first time in history, pushed us over the trillion dollar debt mark.

Do you like subsidizing the ultra rich by playing their shell game? I sure don't.

This is a train wreck in motion. When we collectively reach the end of the line, when other nations call in their markers, we have world war III.

Sorry for the rant.

Chuck

How in the world did Hoover come to the conclusion that Connally got in between the shooter and JFK?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this, one must understand the genesis of the shooting scenario's.

After the SS had completed their work on December 5, 1963, this shooting sequence created many questions of which someone did not want to have to answer.

Therefore, the last/third/final shot which actually occurred some 30+ feet past the Z-312/313 headshot, and struck JFK when he was down there in front of Mr. Altgens, was "erased" by a variety of means.

Hoover and the FBI then did a re-enactment in which they moved this shot up to the Z-234 vicinity, when JBC does his turning to the right scenario.

In Hoover's scenario, this shot did not strike JFK, and only struck JBC.

Unfortunately, the time constraints of a first shot having been fired just as JFK went behind the sign, and then a second shot fired at/around Z-234 or so, could not have been fired from the Carcano as this placed the elapsed time between shots at/about 1.3 seconds.

The "Hoover Lie" was caught, and therefore, the WC to explain it all to us in order that we would understand.

[Lee Forman]

Thanks to those who have offered their opinions. Tom, your thoughts are appreciated but I really only wanted to determine the skill level which would be required of the team assuming there were three (or more) shooters.

Lee, the link is interesting. It's hard to disagree with the author's choosing the eastern end of the fence as the ideal shooting point. Target is approaching not receeding, it's a flat trajectory so the downward angle allowance becomes unnecessary and the car park and railroad yard deliver the all-important escape route. A trained sniper's opinion.

It's still not clear to me the skill level required to accomplish the ambush. Obviously they needed to be experienced shooters but did they need to be world class? Thanks to Pat and Chuck for the input.

The JFK assassination was a rare example of a long range execution. Most assassinations have been short range, as far as I'm aware. I think the assassination of Sadat in 1981 was probably mid-range (30 feet or so), ditto for MLK in 1967. It seems to me that the JFK hit would have been the most difficult of these modern assassinations to accomplish with certainty. Of course, the shooters within or on top of the buildings were long range. Shooters located behind the fence or elsewhere much shorter in range. Or to experienced snipers, would all this be considered quite a close range assignment?

Mark,

I respect Tom's opinion - but as per witness testimony, the curb marks [plural], the round collected by the mystery man, the HSCA testimony about the round the struck the motorcop's fender, the accounts of rounds striking Elm, the possible Stemmon's Sign [the smaller Route 77? sign beneath], the furrows in the grass, the skull fragments, the smoke on the knoll, earwitnesses, etc. etc. etc. - I lean towards Corsicans, ex-Cuban Exiles and ?, without skill sets qualifying for 'professional Sniper' engagements / assignments - no 'one shot one kill' assignment here. Behind the fence near the corner [GKS], behind the retaining wall, behind the Pergola #3 [NCG], Pergola Gardens, DalTex 2nd floor, North Peristyle, 5th Floor East TSBD, 6th Floor West, 7th Floor east. No South Knoll shooter taking 100+ yard shots at a target through a windshield [ludicrous]. And only God knows what the man on the stairs was doing if he wasn't a spotter. Plus there's really no way of knowing how many may have held their fire, been chased off, or choked.

Not professional snipers - but many professional killers. That's just my opinion. Office buildings combined with ground forces. And the limo stop was when the third fusilade was released. But we'll have to go along with the BS until someone has the balls to allow one of the films or some of the REAL photos to be released.

- lee

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thanks to those who have offered their opinions. Tom, your thoughts are appreciated but I really only wanted to determine the skill level which would be required of the team assuming there were three (or more) shooters.

Lee, the link is interesting. It's hard to disagree with the author's choosing the eastern end of the fence as the ideal shooting point. Target is approaching not receeding, it's a flat trajectory so the downward angle allowance becomes unnecessary and the car park and railroad yard deliver the all-important escape route. A trained sniper's opinion.

It's still not clear to me the skill level required to accomplish the ambush. Obviously they needed to be experienced shooters but did they need to be world class? Thanks to Pat and Chuck for the input.

The JFK assassination was a rare example of a long range execution. Most assassinations have been short range, as far as I'm aware. I think the assassination of Sadat in 1981 was probably mid-range (30 feet or so), ditto for MLK in 1967. It seems to me that the JFK hit would have been the most difficult of these modern assassinations to accomplish with certainty. Of course, the shooters within or on top of the buildings were long range. Shooters located behind the fence or elsewhere much shorter in range. Or to experienced snipers, would all this be considered quite a close range assignment?

Mark,

I respect Tom's opinion - but as per witness testimony, the curb marks [plural], the round collected by the mystery man, the HSCA testimony about the round the struck the motorcop's fender, the accounts of rounds striking Elm, the possible Stemmon's Sign [the smaller Route 77? sign beneath], the furrows in the grass, the skull fragments, the smoke on the knoll, earwitnesses, etc. etc. etc. - I lean towards Corsicans, ex-Cuban Exiles and ?, without skill sets qualifying for 'professional Sniper' engagements / assignments - no 'one shot one kill' assignment here. Behind the fence near the corner [GKS], behind the retaining wall, behind the Pergola #3 [NCG], Pergola Gardens, DalTex 2nd floor, North Peristyle, 5th Floor East TSBD, 6th Floor West, 7th Floor east. No South Knoll shooter taking 100+ yard shots at a target through a windshield [ludicrous]. And only God knows what the man on the stairs was doing if he wasn't a spotter. Plus there's really no way of knowing how many may have held their fire, been chased off, or choked.

Not professional snipers - but many professional killers. That's just my opinion. Office buildings combined with ground forces. And the limo stop was when the third fusilade was released. But we'll have to go along with the BS until someone has the balls to allow one of the films or some of the REAL photos to be released.

- lee

Yep! And as recalled, there are those who have been chasing similar scenario's for some 40+ years now.

Certainly satisfying to see exactly how much progress has been made along this "multiple assassin" line.

[Lee Forman]

Yep! And as recalled, there are those who have been chasing similar scenario's for some 40+ years now.

Certainly satisfying to see exactly how much progress has been made along this "multiple assassin" line.

Agreed. A pity that the cover-up was so well funded, albeit poorly organized.

'Produce the assassin' was just more rubbish. That should have been his job, since the shooters were, IMO, not US Citizens.

Thanks for the interesting detail on the yellow paint though. That was new for me and quite interesting. Here's a view from behind the walled walkway / pergola garden area, looking towards the 'x' representing the throat wound.

- lee

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mr. SHANEYFELT

We know from studying the films that just two or three frames before frame 313 we can see a little bit of yellow along the curb, and this checks out because along this area of the photograph from the Zapruder position of the reenactment is a yellow strip.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say this area you are referring to the yellow area which appears on the left-hand curb immediately to the rear of the simulated car?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yellow Stripe# 2---------------Z312/313--------Shot#2.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z357.jpg

Yellow Stripe# 3-------------------------Shot #3

Mr. Altgens standing with camera along curb, approximately 4-feet from the third yellow stripe.

MR. Altgens:

I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For general information, the street lanes along Elm St. were approximately 8-feet width per lane.

Therefore, when 90-degrees straight out from Mr. Altgens, JFK was approximately 12 feet distance from Mr. Altgens position.

Now, reference back to Z-film alteration/or not!

[Lee Forman]

Mr. SHANEYFELT

We know from studying the films that just two or three frames before frame 313 we can see a little bit of yellow along the curb, and this checks out because along this area of the photograph from the Zapruder position of the reenactment is a yellow strip.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say this area you are referring to the yellow area which appears on the left-hand curb immediately to the rear of the simulated car?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yellow Stripe# 2---------------Z312/313--------Shot#2.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z357.jpg

Yellow Stripe# 3-------------------------Shot #3

Mr. Altgens standing with camera along curb, approximately 4-feet from the third yellow stripe.

MR. Altgens:

I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For general information, the street lanes along Elm St. were approximately 8-feet width per lane.

Therefore, when 90-degrees straight out from Mr. Altgens, JFK was approximately 12 feet distance from Mr. Altgens position.

Now, reference back to Z-film alteration/or not!

Thanks for that Tom. Facinating. z310 in support of your post attached [saturation on curb section enhanced].

Worth noting is that a shot from the 'Pergola Gardens' or area between the TSBD and Elm Street would have had a similar trajectory for a shot from the TSBD, although a different elevation.

Newman:

"..that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb."

Also worth noting [again] is Jean Hill's remarks about the shot that landed close to her feet.

Mrs. HILL - Then, he asked me I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?"

- lee

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Yep! And as recalled, there are those who have been chasing similar scenario's for some 40+ years now.

Certainly satisfying to see exactly how much progress has been made along this "multiple assassin" line.

Agreed. A pity that the cover-up was so well funded, albeit poorly organized.

'Produce the assassin' was just more rubbish. That should have been his job, since the shooters were, IMO, not US Citizens.

Thanks for the interesting detail on the yellow paint though. That was new for me and quite interesting. Here's a view from behind the walled walkway / pergola garden area, looking towards the 'x' representing the throat wound.

- lee

The "Rush" is on!

For those who are willing to risk the "arrest"!

Located just right of center of Elm St, in this vicinity, is a large nail driven down into the asphalt.

This nail was placed there by Mr. Robert H. West when he conducted the original survey for Time/Life Magazine, and then for the SS (in which another nail was driven into the asphalt slightly past the first nail.

This is what Surveyors do in roads.

To my knowledge, these nails are still in place and were merely covered over with the re-asphalting of Elm St.

This includes the nail for the SECOND shot to the head at Z-312/313 as well as the THIRD & final shot to the head some 31 feet past the Z312/313 head shot.

These nails can be located with a good metal detector and/or the type detector which a surveyor utilizes to locate survey pins.

In event anyone is up to "dodging traffic", I will provide the survey data and they can risk arrest and vehicle injury if they have interest in locating the impact position of the three shots that were fired in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63.

[Duke Lane]

The "Rush" is on!

For those who are willing to risk the "arrest"!

Located just right of center of Elm St, in this vicinity, is a large nail driven down into the asphalt.

This nail was placed there by Mr. Robert H. West when he conducted the original survey for Time/Life Magazine, and then for the SS (in which another nail was driven into the asphalt slightly past the first nail.

This is what Surveyors do in roads.

To my knowledge, these nails are still in place and were merely covered over with the re-asphalting of Elm St.

This includes the nail for the SECOND shot to the head at Z-312/313 as well as the THIRD & final shot to the head some 31 feet past the Z312/313 head shot.

These nails can be located with a good metal detector and/or the type detector which a surveyor utilizes to locate survey pins.

In event anyone is up to "dodging traffic", I will provide the survey data and they can risk arrest and vehicle injury if they have interest in locating the impact position of the three shots that were fired in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63.

Interesting concepts.

First, that "impact positions" could be determined when the exact trajectory through JFK's body is not known, but is at best only extrapolated, and the point of entry at the rear (back? neck?) is not unquestionable and the hole at the throat cannot definitively be said to be either one of entry or of exit.

Those not being proven scientifically / forensically, we cannot state with 100% certainty - other than based upon a belief - where the shots originated from. That applies equally to both the LN sixth-floor-window-only argument as well as any front-shot (grassy knoll, bridge, sewer drain, etc.) argument.

Robert West could not have been using any more scientific data than is available to the rest of us since it plain ol' doesn't exist. How then a surveyor could determine points of impact when points of origin cannot be determined with certainty is beyond me ... unless, perhaps, he used a metal detector to find bits of metal embedded in the asphalt, which suggests MORE bullets than the ones that hit anybody!

Also interesting to suggest a point of impact just 31 feet after the head shot. Is that a point of impact made before the head shot caused by a missed bullet, or one made after the headshot in the short time span it would take the limo to travel that distance (someone more mathematically inclined can figure that one out if they'd like)? What scientific proof did West apply to determine such a post-headshot impact?

Finally, given that streets in Dallas, in Texas, and throughout the United States are public thoroughfares and wholly unrestricted in their use (provided any such use does not impede the regular flow of traffic or public utilities, or destroy the surface or appurtenances of said streets), why would someone "risk arrest" for walking down Elm Street with a metal detector? It's not even jay-walking (a mere ticketable offense) if the traffic light for oncoming traffic is red!

[Mark Stapleton]

Thanks to those who have offered their opinions. Tom, your thoughts are appreciated but I really only wanted to determine the skill level which would be required of the team assuming there were three (or more) shooters.

Lee, the link is interesting. It's hard to disagree with the author's choosing the eastern end of the fence as the ideal shooting point. Target is approaching not receeding, it's a flat trajectory so the downward angle allowance becomes unnecessary and the car park and railroad yard deliver the all-important escape route. A trained sniper's opinion.

It's still not clear to me the skill level required to accomplish the ambush. Obviously they needed to be experienced shooters but did they need to be world class? Thanks to Pat and Chuck for the input.

The JFK assassination was a rare example of a long range execution. Most assassinations have been short range, as far as I'm aware. I think the assassination of Sadat in 1981 was probably mid-range (30 feet or so), ditto for MLK in 1967. It seems to me that the JFK hit would have been the most difficult of these modern assassinations to accomplish with certainty. Of course, the shooters within or on top of the buildings were long range. Shooters located behind the fence or elsewhere much shorter in range. Or to experienced snipers, would all this be considered quite a close range assignment?

Mark,

I respect Tom's opinion - but as per witness testimony, the curb marks [plural], the round collected by the mystery man, the HSCA testimony about the round the struck the motorcop's fender, the accounts of rounds striking Elm, the possible Stemmon's Sign [the smaller Route 77? sign beneath], the furrows in the grass, the skull fragments, the smoke on the knoll, earwitnesses, etc. etc. etc. - I lean towards Corsicans, ex-Cuban Exiles and ?, without skill sets qualifying for 'professional Sniper' engagements / assignments - no 'one shot one kill' assignment here. Behind the fence near the corner [GKS], behind the retaining wall, behind the Pergola #3 [NCG], Pergola Gardens, DalTex 2nd floor, North Peristyle, 5th Floor East TSBD, 6th Floor West, 7th Floor east. No South Knoll shooter taking 100+ yard shots at a target through a windshield [ludicrous]. And only God knows what the man on the stairs was doing if he wasn't a spotter. Plus there's really no way of knowing how many may have held their fire, been chased off, or choked.

Not professional snipers - but many professional killers. That's just my opinion. Office buildings combined with ground forces. And the limo stop was when the third fusilade was released. But we'll have to go along with the BS until someone has the balls to allow one of the films or some of the REAL photos to be released.

- lee

Yep! And as recalled, there are those who have been chasing similar scenario's for some 40+ years now.

Certainly satisfying to see exactly how much progress has been made along this "multiple assassin" line.

Tom,

Like Lee, I also respect your opinion, despite expressing my disagreement with your LN scenario in the past.

The point is, you are absolutely right. Not much progress has been made on the multiple assassin line and consensus is not likely anytime soon. However, much progress has been made on the LN line. We now know it's crap and there appears to be a general consensus on this.

[Al Carrier]

How good were the shooters is the questions.

Let's look at it from a shooters perspective.

The shooters were firing on a moving target at varying speeds at varying angles of lateral and horizontal placement. The shooters had to get off their shots and escape undetected (and I will not even address the issue of suppressors). The shooters had to cause as little damage outside of the target as possible (only JFK and Connally were hit).

Were these professionals? You bet your ass. When I term "professionals", I am not referring to Italian or French mobsters. I am talking about professionals in terms of military snipers. I have posted time and again on this here and at Lancer. I have introduced the term "Canyon Shoot" to those outside the military sniper realm. I have talked about gravitational pull issues, panning and recovery of sight alignment after the shot.

I see no need to go into again as the challenges I have received have been from those who have shot stationary fixed targets on a controlled range. Apples and oranges.

Al

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The "Rush" is on!

For those who are willing to risk the "arrest"!

Located just right of center of Elm St, in this vicinity, is a large nail driven down into the asphalt.

This nail was placed there by Mr. Robert H. West when he conducted the original survey for Time/Life Magazine, and then for the SS (in which another nail was driven into the asphalt slightly past the first nail.

This is what Surveyors do in roads.

To my knowledge, these nails are still in place and were merely covered over with the re-asphalting of Elm St.

This includes the nail for the SECOND shot to the head at Z-312/313 as well as the THIRD & final shot to the head some 31 feet past the Z312/313 head shot.

These nails can be located with a good metal detector and/or the type detector which a surveyor utilizes to locate survey pins.

In event anyone is up to "dodging traffic", I will provide the survey data and they can risk arrest and vehicle injury if they have interest in locating the impact position of the three shots that were fired in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63.

Interesting concepts.

First, that "impact positions" could be determined when the exact trajectory through JFK's body is not known, but is at best only extrapolated, and the point of entry at the rear (back? neck?) is not unquestionable and the hole at the throat cannot definitively be said to be either one of entry or of exit.

Those not being proven scientifically / forensically, we cannot state with 100% certainty - other than based upon a belief - where the shots originated from. That applies equally to both the LN sixth-floor-window-only argument as well as any front-shot (grassy knoll, bridge, sewer drain, etc.) argument.

Robert West could not have been using any more scientific data than is available to the rest of us since it plain ol' doesn't exist. How then a surveyor could determine points of impact when points of origin cannot be determined with certainty is beyond me ... unless, perhaps, he used a metal detector to find bits of metal embedded in the asphalt, which suggests MORE bullets than the ones that hit anybody!

Also interesting to suggest a point of impact just 31 feet after the head shot. Is that a point of impact made before the head shot caused by a missed bullet, or one made after the headshot in the short time span it would take the limo to travel that distance (someone more mathematically inclined can figure that one out if they'd like)? What scientific proof did West apply to determine such a post-headshot impact?

Finally, given that streets in Dallas, in Texas, and throughout the United States are public thoroughfares and wholly unrestricted in their use (provided any such use does not impede the regular flow of traffic or public utilities, or destroy the surface or appurtenances of said streets), why would someone "risk arrest" for walking down Elm Street with a metal detector? It's not even jay-walking (a mere ticketable offense) if the traffic light for oncoming traffic is red!

First off, the US Secret Service had in their possession a FIRST generation copy of the Z-film.

Secondly, it doe not take any knowledge of the forensics and/or pathology to recognize the head strike at Z312/313. Therefore, why would one have to know the pathology & forensics of any shot striking.

no picture was taken at 5+00 mark as this was about 4 feet from impact of the third shot."

No one that I know of is speaking of "fragments"

Thanks to those who have offered their opinions. Tom, your thoughts are appreciated but I really only wanted to determine the skill level which would be required of the team assuming there were three (or more) shooters.

Lee, the link is interesting. It's hard to disagree with the author's choosing the eastern end of the fence as the ideal shooting point. Target is approaching not receeding, it's a flat trajectory so the downward angle allowance becomes unnecessary and the car park and railroad yard deliver the all-important escape route. A trained sniper's opinion.

It's still not clear to me the skill level required to accomplish the ambush. Obviously they needed to be experienced shooters but did they need to be world class? Thanks to Pat and Chuck for the input.

The JFK assassination was a rare example of a long range execution. Most assassinations have been short range, as far as I'm aware. I think the assassination of Sadat in 1981 was probably mid-range (30 feet or so), ditto for MLK in 1967. It seems to me that the JFK hit would have been the most difficult of these modern assassinations to accomplish with certainty. Of course, the shooters within or on top of the buildings were long range. Shooters located behind the fence or elsewhere much shorter in range. Or to experienced snipers, would all this be considered quite a close range assignment?

Mark,

I respect Tom's opinion - but as per witness testimony, the curb marks [plural], the round collected by the mystery man, the HSCA testimony about the round the struck the motorcop's fender, the accounts of rounds striking Elm, the possible Stemmon's Sign [the smaller Route 77? sign beneath], the furrows in the grass, the skull fragments, the smoke on the knoll, earwitnesses, etc. etc. etc. - I lean towards Corsicans, ex-Cuban Exiles and ?, without skill sets qualifying for 'professional Sniper' engagements / assignments - no 'one shot one kill' assignment here. Behind the fence near the corner [GKS], behind the retaining wall, behind the Pergola #3 [NCG], Pergola Gardens, DalTex 2nd floor, North Peristyle, 5th Floor East TSBD, 6th Floor West, 7th Floor east. No South Knoll shooter taking 100+ yard shots at a target through a windshield [ludicrous]. And only God knows what the man on the stairs was doing if he wasn't a spotter. Plus there's really no way of knowing how many may have held their fire, been chased off, or choked.

Not professional snipers - but many professional killers. That's just my opinion. Office buildings combined with ground forces. And the limo stop was when the third fusilade was released. But we'll have to go along with the BS until someone has the balls to allow one of the films or some of the REAL photos to be released.

- lee

Yep! And as recalled, there are those who have been chasing similar scenario's for some 40+ years now.

Certainly satisfying to see exactly how much progress has been made along this "multiple assassin" line.

Tom,

Like Lee, I also respect your opinion, despite expressing my disagreement with your LN scenario in the past.

The point is, you are absolutely right. Not much progress has been made on the multiple assassin line and consensus is not likely anytime soon. However, much progress has been made on the LN line. We now know it's crap and there appears to be a general consensus on this.

\

We now know it's crap and there appears to be a general consensus on this.

That one does not even take a knowledgeable and/or smart person to figure out.

The means and methods of the lie are not that difficult to recognize and resolve either.

The exact reason and sequence of shots, on the other hand, continues to mystify and lead many down the rabbit hole of multiple assassins, etc.

[Duke Lane]

Interesting concepts.

First, that "impact positions" could be determined when the exact trajectory through JFK's body is not known, but is at best only extrapolated, and the point of entry at the rear (back? neck?) is not unquestionable and the hole at the throat cannot definitively be said to be either one of entry or of exit.

Those not being proven scientifically / forensically, we cannot state with 100% certainty - other than based upon a belief - where the shots originated from. That applies equally to both the LN sixth-floor-window-only argument as well as any front-shot (grassy knoll, bridge, sewer drain, etc.) argument.

Robert West could not have been using any more scientific data than is available to the rest of us since it plain ol' doesn't exist. How then a surveyor could determine points of impact when points of origin cannot be determined with certainty is beyond me ... unless, perhaps, he used a metal detector to find bits of metal embedded in the asphalt, which suggests MORE bullets than the ones that hit anybody!

Also interesting to suggest a point of impact just 31 feet after the head shot. Is that a point of impact made before the head shot caused by a missed bullet, or one made after the headshot in the short time span it would take the limo to travel that distance (someone more mathematically inclined can figure that one out if they'd like)? What scientific proof did West apply to determine such a post-headshot impact?

Finally, given that streets in Dallas, in Texas, and throughout the United States are public thoroughfares and wholly unrestricted in their use (provided any such use does not impede the regular flow of traffic or public utilities, or destroy the surface or appurtenances of said streets), why would someone "risk arrest" for walking down Elm Street with a metal detector? It's not even jay-walking (a mere ticketable offense) if the traffic light for oncoming traffic is red!

First off, the US Secret Service had in their possession a FIRST generation copy of the Z-film.

Secondly, it doe not take any knowledge of the forensics and/or pathology to recognize the head strike at Z312/313. Therefore, why would one have to know the pathology & forensics of any shot striking.

no picture was taken at 5+00 mark as this was about 4 feet from impact of the third shot."

No one that I know of is speaking of "fragments"

So, if I understand, you're suggesting that the original/first generation Z-film shows a shot striking (somewhere) 31 feet (how many Z-frames?) past the Z312/313 head shot and that, since the USSS had a copy of that and (presumably) showed it to Robert West, his survey nail at that location proves an additional shot took place and where it impacted?

Presuming that to be so for the moment, one WOULD need to have knowledge of the forensics if only to know from which direction it came. The sole supporting "evidence" of there being but "ONE shooter" (emphasis yours) cannot be just that it was "possible" for two shots to have been fired from the Italian MC in the time it took for the limo to travel 31 feet at whatever speed it was then going. Because it could have been done that way does not mean that it was done that way!

Hence, if you don't know where the shots originated - the pathology does not tell us conclusively - then you can't posit how many shooters there were or weren't.

Likewise, we can't base the raison d'etre of a (second) survey nail 31 feet from Z312/313 on the presumptiion (assumption?) that the original/1st generation copy of the Z film shows any such thing (since most - if not all - of us have never seen either the original or a first-generation copy), or that, because West did a survey for USSS, that it necessarily showed him such a film.

Z312/313 + 31 feet = how many Z-frames = how many seconds?

So, eliminating (or ignoring, as the case may be) the possibility that West simply made a mistake on either one or both of the two surveys (and, if only one, which one?), what proof exists of another post-Z312 shot? For that matter, while "no one that [you] know of is speaking of 'fragments'" (I don't know who's speaking at all, in this matter; pardon me if I missed that somewhere), even where eyewitnesses have spoken of other impacts, even these don't talk about "fragments" - or even "whole bullets!" - but merely "strikes," so what does "fragments" have to do with anything? Since eyewitness accounts are considered "less than reliable" if not wholly unreliable and are generally discounted (correctly or not), what else is there that's certain?

Tom, I'm asking these things as honest questions, no sarcasm intended ... unless, of course, there are no unassailable answers! Call me "Arlen's Advoc -" ... er, um, I mean "Devil's Advocate!"

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell me approximately where the President's car was when you heard what you later figured was the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, the best I could get right off - I remember it was right about this lightpost right here.

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say when the President was hit in the head he was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post that shows in the picture?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER - That's when he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER - So you had to look up Elm Street?

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture of a renactment of the scene.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time.

Mr. LIEBELER - When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it was coming around - it had just got around the corner,you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I don't think so - I sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER - You don't think he got hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

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Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it seems obvious now, when you think back on it--of course, at the time you don't reason these things out in a state of shock, but it seemed obvious to me afterwards that there wouldn't be another shot if the sniper saw what damage he did. He did enough damage to create enough attention to the fact that everybody knew he was firing a gun. Another shot would have truly given him away, because everybody was looking for him, but as I say, that's an obvious conclusion on my part, but there was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Because as I said before---the way the bullet impact hit the President, it had to come from behind or beside the automobile in order to cause him to move forward a little bit and I didn't expect to find anything up in area, so that is why I was concentrating my observation back in this part, back in the Main---excuse me---back in the Houston-Elm intersection area to see if I could find the rifle.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from.

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http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm

SS Agent Glen Bennett's handwritten notes:

"a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the boss's head"

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Report of SS Agent George Hicky:

At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again. - Possibly four or five seconds elapsed from the time of the first report and the last.

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

"A picture was taken at each point from 0+00 to the 6+25 mark, except no picture was taken at 5+00 mark as this was about 4 feet from impact of the third shot."

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Z-312/313 is located at stationing 4+65.

4-feet from 5+00 gives us stationing 4+96

4+96 minus 4+65 = 31 feet separation from the Z-312/313 head shot to the impact location of the third shot which was considerably farther down the street almost in front of Mr. Altgens, who was just a short distance from the third yellow mark on the curb.

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It is only as difficult as one wants to make it out to be!

It is only as difficult as one wants to make it out to be!

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When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

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Mr. HUDSON: I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - And if we assume that he was shot twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - He was hit again after he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes sir; I do

Mr. LIEBELER - He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you watch the President after he got hit in the head like that?

Mr. HUDSON - Well as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too.

Mr. LIEBELER - So you only saw the President hit once; is that right, sir?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as the second shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

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Mr. HOLLAND - And about that time he went over like that [indicating], and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could tell.

Mr. STERN - Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward and raised your right hand?

Mr. HOLLAND - Pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily.

Mr. STERN - With his right hand?

Mr. HOLLAND - His right hand; and that was the first report that I heard.

Mr. HOLLAND - Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that [indicating] with his hand out, and another report.

Mr. STERN - With his right hand out?

Mr. HOLLAND - Turning to his right.

Mr. STERN - To his right?

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z313.jpg

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http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/brehm.htm

When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot sounded. According to BREHM, the President seemed do to stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President appeared to be badly hit in the head. BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction.

BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots.

After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

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Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).

Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.

Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it

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http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm

SS Agent Paul Landis

All during this time I continued to scan the crowd, returning my gaze towards the President's car. It must have been another second or two before the next shot was fired because, as I recall having seen nothing out of the ordinary, I then thought that maybe one of the cars in the motorcade had had a blowout that had echoed off the buildings. I looked at the right front tire of the President's car and saw it was all right. I then glanced to see the right rear tire, but could not because the Follow-up car was too close.

It was at this moment that I heard a second report and it appeared that the President's head split open with a muffled exploding sound. I can best describe the sound as I heard it, as the sound you would get by shooting a high powered bullet into a five gallon can of water or shooting into a melon. I saw pieces of flesh and blood flying through the air and the President slumped out of sight towards Mrs. Kennedy.

The time lapse between the first and second report must have been about four or five seconds.

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...eport_0068a.htm

The Shot That Missed

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Mr. SPECTER. I ask you to state what that album depicts.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is an album that I prepared of black and white photographs made of the majority of the frames in the Zapruder film----

Mr. SPECTER. Starting with what frame number?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Starting with frame 171, going through frame 334.

Mr. SPECTER. And why did you start with frame 171?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the frame that the slides start from. This was an arbitrary frame number that was decided on as being far enough back to include the area that we wanted to study.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a frame where President Kennedy comes into full view after the motorcade turns left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how was the ending point of that frame sequence, being No. 334, fixed?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was fixed as several frames past the shot that hit the President in the head. Frame 313 is the frame showing the shot to the President's head, and it ends at 334.

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2.3 seconds (+/-) operating time of weapon X 18.3 frames pers second (speed of Z-film) =

42 elapsed frames of the film.

Z313 (headshot) + 42 additional elapsed frames of the film = Z355 (+/-)

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http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z355.jpg

And there we have Mr. Altgens, as well as the third yellow stripe.

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And although THIS Z355 is not the exact and true Z355, it nevertheless demonstrates:

1. Why the WC attempted to avoid even having Mr. Altgens testify, and only called him after the WC enquiry was completed, when an article in the paper criticized them for their failure to call such a key witness.

2. Why the WC decided on their own that there was nothing worth seeing past Z334 of the film, which is the last frame of the film placed into evidence during the WC hearings.

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Tom knows such a feat was unlikely, which is why he adds extra seconds onto the scenario.

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NAH!-----------Tom just likes to evaluate ALL of the facts and then make the most rational and logical decision based on these facts.

And Tom is fully cognizant that the US Secret Service & the FBI, who both at one time plotted the impact position of the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot, down by Mr. Altgens position on Elm St, are far more qualified than he is (Tom) in determination of the facts of the assassination.

Especially when one considers that these persons had in their possession a first generation copy of the Z-film.

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Mr. KELLERMAN. No: it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Interesting concepts.

First, that "impact positions" could be determined when the exact trajectory through JFK's body is not known, but is at best only extrapolated, and the point of entry at the rear (back? neck?) is not unquestionable and the hole at the throat cannot definitively be said to be either one of entry or of exit.

Those not being proven scientifically / forensically, we cannot state with 100% certainty - other than based upon a belief - where the shots originated from. That applies equally to both the LN sixth-floor-window-only argument as well as any front-shot (grassy knoll, bridge, sewer drain, etc.) argument.

Robert West could not have been using any more scientific data than is available to the rest of us since it plain ol' doesn't exist. How then a surveyor could determine points of impact when points of origin cannot be determined with certainty is beyond me ... unless, perhaps, he used a metal detector to find bits of metal embedded in the asphalt, which suggests MORE bullets than the ones that hit anybody!

Also interesting to suggest a point of impact just 31 feet after the head shot. Is that a point of impact made before the head shot caused by a missed bullet, or one made after the headshot in the short time span it would take the limo to travel that distance (someone more mathematically inclined can figure that one out if they'd like)? What scientific proof did West apply to determine such a post-headshot impact?

Finally, given that streets in Dallas, in Texas, and throughout the United States are public thoroughfares and wholly unrestricted in their use (provided any such use does not impede the regular flow of traffic or public utilities, or destroy the surface or appurtenances of said streets), why would someone "risk arrest" for walking down Elm Street with a metal detector? It's not even jay-walking (a mere ticketable offense) if the traffic light for oncoming traffic is red!

First off, the US Secret Service had in their possession a FIRST generation copy of the Z-film.

Secondly, it doe not take any knowledge of the forensics and/or pathology to recognize the head strike at Z312/313. Therefore, why would one have to know the pathology & forensics of any shot striking.

no picture was taken at 5+00 mark as this was about 4 feet from impact of the third shot."

No one that I know of is speaking of "fragments"

So, if I understand, you're suggesting that the original/first generation Z-film shows a shot striking (somewhere) 31 feet (how many Z-frames?) past the Z312/313 head shot and that, since the USSS had a copy of that and (presumably) showed it to Robert West, his survey nail at that location proves an additional shot took place and where it impacted?

Presuming that to be so for the moment, one WOULD need to have knowledge of the forensics if only to know from which direction it came. The sole supporting "evidence" of there being but "ONE shooter" (emphasis yours) cannot be just that it was "possible" for two shots to have been fired from the Italian MC in the time it took for the limo to travel 31 feet at whatever speed it was then going. Because it could have been done that way does not mean that it was done that way!

Hence, if you don't know where the shots originated - the pathology does not tell us conclusively - then you can't posit how many shooters there were or weren't.

Likewise, we can't base the raison d'etre of a (second) survey nail 31 feet from Z312/313 on the presumptiion (assumption?) that the original/1st generation copy of the Z film shows any such thing (since most - if not all - of us have never seen either the original or a first-generation copy), or that, because West did a survey for USSS, that it necessarily showed him such a film.

Z312/313 + 31 feet = how many Z-frames = how many seconds?

So, eliminating (or ignoring, as the case may be) the possibility that West simply made a mistake on either one or both of the two surveys (and, if only one, which one?), what proof exists of another post-Z312 shot? For that matter, while "no one that [you] know of is speaking of 'fragments'" (I don't know who's speaking at all, in this matter; pardon me if I missed that somewhere), even where eyewitnesses have spoken of other impacts, even these don't talk about "fragments" - or even "whole bullets!" - but merely "strikes," so what does "fragments" have to do with anything? Since eyewitness accounts are considered "less than reliable" if not wholly unreliable and are generally discounted (correctly or not), what else is there that's certain?

Tom, I'm asking these things as honest questions, no sarcasm intended ... unless, of course, there are no unassailable answers! Call me "Arlen's Advoc -" ... er, um, I mean "Devil's Advocate!"

First Rule: Approach everything stated by anyone with the "DOUBTING THOMAS" attitude.

One is far less likely to end up looking completely stupid if this approach is taken.

Secondly, despite what some have claimed, Mr. West told me personally that neither he nor his survey crew personnel were allowed access to the films in his work on plotting the positions of JFK/and or the Presidential Limousine. (during any of the multiple survey's)

The "GENESIS" of the survey data is not that complicated to understand when in possession of all of the survey notes as well as the actual survey plats.

1. Time/Life on 11/25/63 (with their original information) managed to accurately plat the impact point of the first shot as well as the Z312/313 headshot.

2. On 12/5/63, the US Secret Service completed their work utililzing the first generation copy of the film which they were in possession of.

In this work, there are the following variations from the Time/Life work:

A. The US Secret Service, as indicated by their notes as given on CE 875, utilized the rear bumper of the re-enactment limousine as their reference point, and the X on the map as well as stationing number are in fact not the exact position of JFK at point of impact.

As example, the X on the SS 12/5/63 survey plat for the second shot, is much closer to Mary Moorman & Jean Hill (&yellow stripe) than was the position of JFK at point of impact for this shot.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

B. All of the work done for Time/Life---The SS-----& the FBI Re-enactment in January 1964, utilized downward firing angles from the TSDB window to the exact point on the street, not the actual elevation of JFK's head.

C. The WC came along, and even though three separate survey re-enactments prior to their work had relatively accurately placed the impact point of the first shot, determined that this position could not be determined. Thus, this point was deleted.

D. The WC decided, against a large amount of evidence otherwise, that the Z312/313 headshot was the LAST shot fired in the sequence.

This BS scenario is in direct contradiction to considerable eyewitness testimony as to the second shot strike to JFK's head as well as the large amount of testimony which indicates the "longer delay" from the first to second shot, as opposed to that delay between the second and third shot.

E. Therefore, the WC decided that there was now nothing relevant in the Z-film past the Z334 point, which is only 21 Z-frames/1.15 seconds past impact of the known headshot. Which by the way is directly contradicted by their multiple pages of "circular reasoning" as regards THE SHOT THAT MISSED.

F. Therefore, impact point for shot# 3 was deleted from existence from survey work, along with shot# 1.

And thereafter, not unlike my friends/comrads/associates who were members of the Son Tay Raid,

Kept in Dark and Fed only Horse xxxx!----------------------aka the mushroom syndrone

Tom

[Mark Stapleton]

How good were the shooters is the questions.

Let's look at it from a shooters perspective.

The shooters were firing on a moving target at varying speeds at varying angles of lateral and horizontal placement. The shooters had to get off their shots and escape undetected (and I will not even address the issue of suppressors). The shooters had to cause as little damage outside of the target as possible (only JFK and Connally were hit).

Were these professionals? You bet your ass. When I term "professionals", I am not referring to Italian or French mobsters. I am talking about professionals in terms of military snipers. I have posted time and again on this here and at Lancer. I have introduced the term "Canyon Shoot" to those outside the military sniper realm. I have talked about gravitational pull issues, panning and recovery of sight alignment after the shot.

I see no need to go into again as the challenges I have received have been from those who have shot stationary fixed targets on a controlled range. Apples and oranges.

Al

Al,

Much appreciated. A concise evaluation of how good the shooters needed to be (from someone with knowledge in this area) was what I was trying to obtain. (although the opinions expressed by others have also been helpful).

So despite the fact that the organisers made every effort to accomodate the shooters, the shooters were required to be among the very best in their field. Probably obvious in light of the importance of their job, but I was curious about this aspect of the assassination. Thanks again.