How good were the shooters in DP?

[Pat Speer]

Mr. Purvis, I am interested in reading that article, but for some reason I can see only one page of it.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

How good were the shooters is the questions.

Let's look at it from a shooters perspective.

The shooters were firing on a moving target at varying speeds at varying angles of lateral and horizontal placement. The shooters had to get off their shots and escape undetected (and I will not even address the issue of suppressors). The shooters had to cause as little damage outside of the target as possible (only JFK and Connally were hit).

Were these professionals? You bet your ass. When I term "professionals", I am not referring to Italian or French mobsters. I am talking about professionals in terms of military snipers. I have posted time and again on this here and at Lancer. I have introduced the term "Canyon Shoot" to those outside the military sniper realm. I have talked about gravitational pull issues, panning and recovery of sight alignment after the shot.

I see no need to go into again as the challenges I have received have been from those who have shot stationary fixed targets on a controlled range. Apples and oranges.

Al

Al,

Much appreciated. A concise evaluation of how good the shooters needed to be (from someone with knowledge in this area) was what I was trying to obtain. (although the opinions expressed by others have also been helpful).

So despite the fact that the organisers made every effort to accomodate the shooters, the shooters were required to be among the very best in their field. Probably obvious in light of the importance of their job, but I was curious about this aspect of the assassination. Thanks again.

Might I recommend: ayoob@attglobal.net

Or else search: Massad Ayoob

or else: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/biblio.html

Ayoob, Massad

The Ayoob Files - The JFK Assassination: A Shooter's Eye View

in: American Handgunner, March/April 1993

Gun experts examine a number of issues related to Oswald's MC rifle, his shooting skill, ballistics, and the reaction of Kennedy to the shots. The single-assassin theory is found to be well within the limits of plausibility.

Perhaps Mr. Simkin will approach Massad and see if he will discuss the accuracy; integrity; capability; reliability; operating speed; etc; of the Carcano Rifle.

Then again, Mr. Massad Ayoob may just tell everyone to read and review what he wrote for American Handgunner some 13 years ago.

Once again I am shaking my head at the likes of Mr. Purvis. In the fifteen or so odd years that I have been researching the JFK Assassination and the six or so years that I have been public with my research, I have found that the majority of my time has been spent wasted on the likes of Mr. Purvis and others who have deemed themselves worthy to interpret data and challenge those who have a background in such matters that are capable of intepreting data. The Mr. Purvis types will always find some prostitute to call an expert to drive their THEORY home while interpreting video and testimony to fit their THEORY when they have no clue as to what they are talking about as they have no background or hands-on experience to relate to what they are saying. I bring out issues such as how the MC had a considerable percentage of non-existent resistant trigger travel before the break, that would make this weapon a poor choice for a precision rifle. I also bring out that the weapon has a short stock and long bolt which would make target reaquisition extremely difficult. I also brought out how a heavy long bullet fired from a low level velocity cartridge would create considerable difficulty in adapting to elevation and changes in a moving target. These issues go on deaf ears when dealing with the Tom Purvis' of the research community because they cannot begin to understand what I am talking about. If one would take the time to study Craig Robert's recreation or look into Carlos Hathcock's interpretation of the likelihood of the official scenario, then this might come together. But what the hell does Roberts, Hathcock or I know beyond the expertise in weapons and certification and documentation of being a proven scout sniper?

An example of the prostitute to prove a point issue, lets take Mr. Ayoob since Mr. Purvis has used him here to prove his point. Masad Ayoob is a Reserve Police Officer who boasts of an extensive background in the Middle East and runs a shooting academy where he makes large sums of money from in-bread red-necked derelicts from both the civilian and LE market, that like Mr. Purvis believe what they read when they wished to believe it. Before one takes too much credibility from anything the likes of Ayoob says, I would recommend they ask someone from a military or LE firearms background on their take of Mr. Ayoob.

In 1991, my agency transitioned from a .357 magnum revolver to a semi-automatic pistol. I took part in a committiee to test various semi-autos on the market and we went unanimously with the Glock Model 22 which is a full sized handgun chambered for the .40S&W cartridge. by this time Glock had been on the American Market for about two years and had already grabbed onto roughly 40% of the LE market in semi-auto handguns. The FBI did a study and developed the 10mm which the .40S&W evolved from as it was just a cut down cartridge, lower velocity version of the 10mm. The FBI denounced the Glock and the .40S&W and armed their agents with the 10mm in two versions produced by S&W, which were stainless, large bulky framed handguns. (Shortly after my agency transitioned to the Glock, I was involved in a shooting where I was the first LE officer in the state of Iowa to shoot an individual with the Glock. I was successful in stopping the individual who was attacking me with a knife with a three shot placement to the pelvic girdle.)

In 1993, a cable network television news magazine came out with an hour long episode entitled, "GLock, a Dangerous Weapon". In this episode, they introduced the public to four lawsuites being filed against Glock where LE Officers supposedly were involved in wrongful (accidental) shootings. Ayoob followed the money in line with the FBI and took part in this news magazine and made the statement that "You cannot train LE officers to keep their finger off the trigger of the weapon under stress." The Glock has three internal safeties and no external safeties and many in the lawsuites were claiming that the weapon just went off. Ayoob is a prostitute but not an idiot so he took up the stance that the accidental shootings were the cause of impossible training to keep the officers fingers off the triggers until ready to shoot. He then put on a rediculous demonstration where he held a Glock pointed at a target with his finger on the trigger. He then struck his forearm in the region of the radial nerve and the gun went off. When one slowed down the video, they would see that the Glock fired before he struck his forearm. The point being, most competion with Glock at the time were the S&W second and third generation, the Beretta and Sig which had either an external safety on the lower receiver or the slide. He was saying that LE officer could be trained to manually manipulate the external safety under stress, but could not be trained to keep their finger off the trigger. Both are what is defined as fine muscle group obedience and either can only be mastered by the same repetative training. What the prostitute Ayoob failed to tell the news magazine either because of his ignorance or because of his alterior motives, is that officers who carried weapons with external safeties were in large part trained to disengage the safety before initial holstering, so that they did not have to deal with this issue under stress. Under stress of drawing and firing, the ten year standard at the time of this study showed that LE officers had 2.5 seconds from beginning to end of a LE gunfight. He also relayed the light trigger on the Glock when the Glock produced weapons with a standard 5lb trigger, NY#1 8lb trigger and NY#2 12lb trigger. A revolver double action trigger is in the range of 9-11lbs.

In 1998, the FBI, DEA and Boarder Patrol all began transitioning their agencies to the Glock .40S&W. The 10mm is a round of the past as the frame was too large for most officers and almost all female officers/agents and the recoil was difficult to say the least for most. Even S&W pistols chambered for .40S&W were too bulky and the trigger pull too difficult especially for multiple shot placement. Glock published their annual magazine that year with the FBI's article on going to their weapon. The following article was written by Massad Ayoob, backing the Glock weapon! Prostitute?

In conclusion, believe what you will and trust who you will. But please look a little deeper than what the wanna-bes are producing at face value. I do not have the time and strength to continue to argue with the Purvis' of the community. My silence is not a sign of defeat to their challenges, just a reluctance to continue to fight against their hollow challenges that they produce.

Al

Masad Ayoob is a Reserve Police Officer who boasts of an extensive background in the Middle East and runs a shooting academy where he makes large sums of money from in-bread red-necked derelicts from both the civilian and LE market, that like Mr. Purvis believe what they read when they wished to believe it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

Massad F. Ayoob (b. July 20, 1948) is an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor. He is the Director of the Lethal Force Institute in Concord, New Hampshire, has taught police techniques and civilian self-defense in numerous venues since 1974, and has appeared as an expert witness in several trials. He has served as a police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and currently holds the rank of Captain in the Grantham, New Hampshire police department.

Massad Ayoob has authored several books and over 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues, and has served in an editorial capacity for Guns Magazine, American Handgunner, Gun Week and Combat Handguns.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

AMMUNITION FOR THE SELF-DEFENSE FIREARM

This is a guide to help you select the best ammunition for your defensive firearm. Most of these opinions are based upon the work of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow, police officers who have extensively studied the issue of firearms, ammunition and stopping power. I refer all interested parties to the excellent series by Ayoob ('In the Gravest Extreme,''Stressfire,' 'The Semi-Automatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense', 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun') and the comprehensive book 'Stopping Power' by Marshall and Sanow.

These three policemen are the world's foremost authorities on choosing ammunition for real-world defensive use. Their views are based on exhaustive review of thousands of police and civilian shooting incidents, autopsies, and ballistic tests.

For this reason, I have chosen to rely on Ayoob, Marshall, and Sanow when it comes to selecting my ammunition and strongly advise you do the same.

Unfortunately, I cannot teach you tactics in this short essay, only recommend proven ammunition. You MUST seek out competent training in tactics and marksmanship from a qualified instructor in your area. In the meanwhile, studying Ayoob's great book 'Stressfire' will get you off to an excellent start.

I invoke the Ascended Master, Massad Ayoob

I refer all interested parties to Ayoob's excellent and comprehensive book 'The Truth About Self-Protection' (truly the best $8.95 investment you'll ever make),

and gun enthusiasts should rely on Ayoob's in-depth expertise.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.backwoodshome.com/store/files/cd-ayoob.htm

Massad Ayoob on Firearms

Massad Ayoob is one of America's leading firearms and self-defense experts and trainers

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

please look a little deeper than what the wanna-bes are producing

[Jim Feemster]

I have been reading this post thru out and so far have not read anywhere or heard anyone explain, who, if Oswald was the lone shooter with no help, who ,i ask again, PAINTED THE STRIPES ?

Jim feemster

[Al Carrier]

How good were the shooters is the questions.

Let's look at it from a shooters perspective.

The shooters were firing on a moving target at varying speeds at varying angles of lateral and horizontal placement. The shooters had to get off their shots and escape undetected (and I will not even address the issue of suppressors). The shooters had to cause as little damage outside of the target as possible (only JFK and Connally were hit).

Were these professionals? You bet your ass. When I term "professionals", I am not referring to Italian or French mobsters. I am talking about professionals in terms of military snipers. I have posted time and again on this here and at Lancer. I have introduced the term "Canyon Shoot" to those outside the military sniper realm. I have talked about gravitational pull issues, panning and recovery of sight alignment after the shot.

I see no need to go into again as the challenges I have received have been from those who have shot stationary fixed targets on a controlled range. Apples and oranges.

Al

Al,

Much appreciated. A concise evaluation of how good the shooters needed to be (from someone with knowledge in this area) was what I was trying to obtain. (although the opinions expressed by others have also been helpful).

So despite the fact that the organisers made every effort to accomodate the shooters, the shooters were required to be among the very best in their field. Probably obvious in light of the importance of their job, but I was curious about this aspect of the assassination. Thanks again.

Might I recommend: ayoob@attglobal.net

Or else search: Massad Ayoob

or else: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/biblio.html

Ayoob, Massad

The Ayoob Files - The JFK Assassination: A Shooter's Eye View

in: American Handgunner, March/April 1993

Gun experts examine a number of issues related to Oswald's MC rifle, his shooting skill, ballistics, and the reaction of Kennedy to the shots. The single-assassin theory is found to be well within the limits of plausibility.

Perhaps Mr. Simkin will approach Massad and see if he will discuss the accuracy; integrity; capability; reliability; operating speed; etc; of the Carcano Rifle.

Then again, Mr. Massad Ayoob may just tell everyone to read and review what he wrote for American Handgunner some 13 years ago.

Once again I am shaking my head at the likes of Mr. Purvis. In the fifteen or so odd years that I have been researching the JFK Assassination and the six or so years that I have been public with my research, I have found that the majority of my time has been spent wasted on the likes of Mr. Purvis and others who have deemed themselves worthy to interpret data and challenge those who have a background in such matters that are capable of intepreting data. The Mr. Purvis types will always find some prostitute to call an expert to drive their THEORY home while interpreting video and testimony to fit their THEORY when they have no clue as to what they are talking about as they have no background or hands-on experience to relate to what they are saying. I bring out issues such as how the MC had a considerable percentage of non-existent resistant trigger travel before the break, that would make this weapon a poor choice for a precision rifle. I also bring out that the weapon has a short stock and long bolt which would make target reaquisition extremely difficult. I also brought out how a heavy long bullet fired from a low level velocity cartridge would create considerable difficulty in adapting to elevation and changes in a moving target. These issues go on deaf ears when dealing with the Tom Purvis' of the research community because they cannot begin to understand what I am talking about. If one would take the time to study Craig Robert's recreation or look into Carlos Hathcock's interpretation of the likelihood of the official scenario, then this might come together. But what the hell does Roberts, Hathcock or I know beyond the expertise in weapons and certification and documentation of being a proven scout sniper?

An example of the prostitute to prove a point issue, lets take Mr. Ayoob since Mr. Purvis has used him here to prove his point. Masad Ayoob is a Reserve Police Officer who boasts of an extensive background in the Middle East and runs a shooting academy where he makes large sums of money from in-bread red-necked derelicts from both the civilian and LE market, that like Mr. Purvis believe what they read when they wished to believe it. Before one takes too much credibility from anything the likes of Ayoob says, I would recommend they ask someone from a military or LE firearms background on their take of Mr. Ayoob.

In 1991, my agency transitioned from a .357 magnum revolver to a semi-automatic pistol. I took part in a committiee to test various semi-autos on the market and we went unanimously with the Glock Model 22 which is a full sized handgun chambered for the .40S&W cartridge. by this time Glock had been on the American Market for about two years and had already grabbed onto roughly 40% of the LE market in semi-auto handguns. The FBI did a study and developed the 10mm which the .40S&W evolved from as it was just a cut down cartridge, lower velocity version of the 10mm. The FBI denounced the Glock and the .40S&W and armed their agents with the 10mm in two versions produced by S&W, which were stainless, large bulky framed handguns. (Shortly after my agency transitioned to the Glock, I was involved in a shooting where I was the first LE officer in the state of Iowa to shoot an individual with the Glock. I was successful in stopping the individual who was attacking me with a knife with a three shot placement to the pelvic girdle.)

In 1993, a cable network television news magazine came out with an hour long episode entitled, "GLock, a Dangerous Weapon". In this episode, they introduced the public to four lawsuites being filed against Glock where LE Officers supposedly were involved in wrongful (accidental) shootings. Ayoob followed the money in line with the FBI and took part in this news magazine and made the statement that "You cannot train LE officers to keep their finger off the trigger of the weapon under stress." The Glock has three internal safeties and no external safeties and many in the lawsuites were claiming that the weapon just went off. Ayoob is a prostitute but not an idiot so he took up the stance that the accidental shootings were the cause of impossible training to keep the officers fingers off the triggers until ready to shoot. He then put on a rediculous demonstration where he held a Glock pointed at a target with his finger on the trigger. He then struck his forearm in the region of the radial nerve and the gun went off. When one slowed down the video, they would see that the Glock fired before he struck his forearm. The point being, most competion with Glock at the time were the S&W second and third generation, the Beretta and Sig which had either an external safety on the lower receiver or the slide. He was saying that LE officer could be trained to manually manipulate the external safety under stress, but could not be trained to keep their finger off the trigger. Both are what is defined as fine muscle group obedience and either can only be mastered by the same repetative training. What the prostitute Ayoob failed to tell the news magazine either because of his ignorance or because of his alterior motives, is that officers who carried weapons with external safeties were in large part trained to disengage the safety before initial holstering, so that they did not have to deal with this issue under stress. Under stress of drawing and firing, the ten year standard at the time of this study showed that LE officers had 2.5 seconds from beginning to end of a LE gunfight. He also relayed the light trigger on the Glock when the Glock produced weapons with a standard 5lb trigger, NY#1 8lb trigger and NY#2 12lb trigger. A revolver double action trigger is in the range of 9-11lbs.

In 1998, the FBI, DEA and Boarder Patrol all began transitioning their agencies to the Glock .40S&W. The 10mm is a round of the past as the frame was too large for most officers and almost all female officers/agents and the recoil was difficult to say the least for most. Even S&W pistols chambered for .40S&W were too bulky and the trigger pull too difficult especially for multiple shot placement. Glock published their annual magazine that year with the FBI's article on going to their weapon. The following article was written by Massad Ayoob, backing the Glock weapon! Prostitute?

In conclusion, believe what you will and trust who you will. But please look a little deeper than what the wanna-bes are producing at face value. I do not have the time and strength to continue to argue with the Purvis' of the community. My silence is not a sign of defeat to their challenges, just a reluctance to continue to fight against their hollow challenges that they produce.

Al

Masad Ayoob is a Reserve Police Officer who boasts of an extensive background in the Middle East and runs a shooting academy where he makes large sums of money from in-bread red-necked derelicts from both the civilian and LE market, that like Mr. Purvis believe what they read when they wished to believe it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

Massad F. Ayoob (b. July 20, 1948) is an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor. He is the Director of the Lethal Force Institute in Concord, New Hampshire, has taught police techniques and civilian self-defense in numerous venues since 1974, and has appeared as an expert witness in several trials. He has served as a police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and currently holds the rank of Captain in the Grantham, New Hampshire police department.

Massad Ayoob has authored several books and over 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues, and has served in an editorial capacity for Guns Magazine, American Handgunner, Gun Week and Combat Handguns.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

AMMUNITION FOR THE SELF-DEFENSE FIREARM

This is a guide to help you select the best ammunition for your defensive firearm. Most of these opinions are based upon the work of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow, police officers who have extensively studied the issue of firearms, ammunition and stopping power. I refer all interested parties to the excellent series by Ayoob ('In the Gravest Extreme,''Stressfire,' 'The Semi-Automatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense', 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun') and the comprehensive book 'Stopping Power' by Marshall and Sanow.

These three policemen are the world's foremost authorities on choosing ammunition for real-world defensive use. Their views are based on exhaustive review of thousands of police and civilian shooting incidents, autopsies, and ballistic tests.

For this reason, I have chosen to rely on Ayoob, Marshall, and Sanow when it comes to selecting my ammunition and strongly advise you do the same.

Unfortunately, I cannot teach you tactics in this short essay, only recommend proven ammunition. You MUST seek out competent training in tactics and marksmanship from a qualified instructor in your area. In the meanwhile, studying Ayoob's great book 'Stressfire' will get you off to an excellent start.

I invoke the Ascended Master, Massad Ayoob

I refer all interested parties to Ayoob's excellent and comprehensive book 'The Truth About Self-Protection' (truly the best $8.95 investment you'll ever make),

and gun enthusiasts should rely on Ayoob's in-depth expertise.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.backwoodshome.com/store/files/cd-ayoob.htm

Massad Ayoob on Firearms

Massad Ayoob is one of America's leading firearms and self-defense experts and trainers

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

please look a little deeper than what the wanna-bes are producing

I am sorry because I cannot argue with those who have no idea what they are talking about. Anyone can keep searching websites and find favorable on persons who have become legends in their own minds and made a tremendous amount of money off those who are looking for an "expert". I refer back to my original post. I will add to this by stating a challenge I ask anyone in the know to sound off against. In the case of Ayoob and the "ideal handgun load", does it make a difference? Handgun ammunition does not reliably expand and it is a proven fact by the likes of Dr. Fackler and the ongoing tests produced by the DOJ. It comes down realistically to not what is fired, but shot placement and in the case of handguns, multiple shot placement. We are not dealing with pinpoint accuracy but a spread placement into the central cavity to ensure that the low range velocity projectiles disrupt and penetrate major organs and vessels. Thus creating significant trauma and bleeding which would evenutally disable the perp through bleeding out and shock. Whether I fire a Federal bonded Tactical load or FMJ range load, it accomplishes the same in the case of handgun loads. The key is multiple shot placement that can only be taught on the range through realistic scenarios. And one does not have to attend the prostitute Ayoobs "Lethal Force Institute" to accomplish this. They only need to find a realistic firearms instructor who has been around a bit to know what the hell they are talking about.

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

[Bill Miller]

I have been reading this post thru out and so far have not read anywhere or heard anyone explain, who, if Oswald was the lone shooter with no help, who ,i ask again, PAINTED THE STRIPES ?

Jim feemster

Jim, if you are talking about the yellow stripes on the curb ... they had been there as far back as the mid to late 50's before JFK was ever elected President. I have questioned several old time cab and bus drivers in Dallas and their remarks were consistent. Such stripes were painted on the curbs in and around Dallas where there were bends in the road. The stripes were to alert drivers at night that the road curves.

Bill

Edited June 1, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Thomas H. Purvis]

"Masad Ayoob is a Reserve Police Officer who boasts of an extensive background in the Middle East and runs a shooting academy where he makes large sums of money from in-bread red-necked derelicts from both the civilian and LE market, that like Mr. Purvis believe what they read when they wished to believe it."

Al Carrier

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.criticalreaction.com/INSTRUCTOR...sad%20Ayoob.htm

Massad Ayoob has been a sworn police officer for more than 26 years, serving the last ten as a captain and prosecutor with a municipal department in Northern New Hampshire, and two years as co-vice chair of the forensic evidence committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. For more than a decade he has chaired the firearms/deadly force training committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers. He has lectured repeatedly for the International Homicide Investigators’ Seminar and the International Association for the Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors. Named the Outstanding American Handgunner in 1998, Ayoob is the holder of multiple national, regional, and state combat handgun championship titles. Ayoob developed the StressFire combat shooting system that was adopted in the 80's by the United States Army as their course of instruction.

(emphasis added)

I would suppose that Mr. Ayoob must have developed some means of teaching all of those old "red-necked

derelicts" a thing or two in regards to combat pistol courses.

[Craig Clark]

Hello, my first post.

I've really enjoyed the information here and Teacher Simkin has performed a great service, as most of you perhaps.

If, as I suspect, the assassination was primarily acted out by Military Intelligence (utilizing other like-minded Intelligence folk, and a slew of other sources: Mafia, Cubano, Corsican, White Russian, Texas Oil, Permindex,etc., until the whole apparatus becomes what one researcher coined [i quote from memory, excuse errors]: 'the conspiracy itself is the cover-up'); I take that to mean that so many threads were employed and so many trails were spun-off, that the sheer dizzying effect would cause even the most level-headed researcher to go vertigo, or stop, 'Aha!, at just one or two threads.

I think the guy in the beret, his mentality is sadly still in Viet Nam.

Perhaps we all should go to Viet Nam now and help take out some of those landmines there, or help all the Viet Namese children, deformed (Agent Orange babies), maybe we should all spend a vacation making ammends to the people of Viet Nam, because after all the smoke and bulls--t has cleared, the real freedom fighters were the Ho Chi Minh supporters, and not even the American Empire could still that fervent call to freedom from Western colonialists.

I'm sorry TP had to go, I wasn't in diapers, but that doesn't matter, that comment just shows how much pain TP is in.

It's hard to look at ourselves, our history of genocide, oppression, and murder, and still feel proud about the uniform.

America has a terrible case of amnesia! Read Zinn's 'People's History of the United States' for God's sake.

Part of our mission here could be to go a little bit public, to organize or join a 11/22 memorial ceremony (preferebly outside, but esp. in DC at the flame, and Dallas, LA, Memphis at the shooting sites).

Just my 2 sense.

btw:God bless America and God bless the rest of the world (incl. our enemies)!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Hello, my first post.

I've really enjoyed the information here and Teacher Simkin has performed a great service, as most of you perhaps.

If, as I suspect, the assassination was primarily acted out by Military Intelligence (utilizing other like-minded Intelligence folk, and a slew of other sources: Mafia, Cubano, Corsican, White Russian, Texas Oil, Permindex,etc., until the whole apparatus becomes what one researcher coined [i quote from memory, excuse errors]: 'the conspiracy itself is the cover-up'); I take that to mean that so many threads were employed and so many trails were spun-off, that the sheer dizzying effect would cause even the most level-headed researcher to go vertigo, or stop, 'Aha!, at just one or two threads.

I think the guy in the beret, his mentality is sadly still in Viet Nam.

Perhaps we all should go to Viet Nam now and help take out some of those landmines there, or help all the Viet Namese children, deformed (Agent Orange babies), maybe we should all spend a vacation making ammends to the people of Viet Nam, because after all the smoke and bulls--t has cleared, the real freedom fighters were the Ho Chi Minh supporters, and not even the American Empire could still that fervent call to freedom from Western colonialists.

I'm sorry TP had to go, I wasn't in diapers, but that doesn't matter, that comment just shows how much pain TP is in.

It's hard to look at ourselves, our history of genocide, oppression, and murder, and still feel proud about the uniform.

America has a terrible case of amnesia! Read Zinn's 'People's History of the United States' for God's sake.

Part of our mission here could be to go a little bit public, to organize or join a 11/22 memorial ceremony (preferebly outside, but esp. in DC at the flame, and Dallas, LA, Memphis at the shooting sites).

Just my 2 sense.

btw:God bless America and God bless the rest of the world (incl. our enemies)!

I'm sorry TP had to go

It would appear that you should back up and review "old postings".

TP did not have to go! He was safe at home in the MS National Guard as well as in college.

In fact, in 1965, he and the remainder of his unit were doing such dasterdly deeds as protecting the property of MS Gulf Coast Residents due to a hurricans that hit.

After college, he voluteered for active duty, as this happens to be one of those "family" things of serving in wartime, and he thereafter volunteered for sevice in Vietnam. (not that it matters as rest assured the US Army had full intentions of that anyway).

It's hard to look at ourselves, our history of genocide, oppression, and murder, and still feel proud about the uniform.

Well, in event that you ever served, and you take no pride in the uniform, then I must assume that you did something in which you are ashamed of.

As to myself, I neither dishonored myself or my uniform, whether in Vietnam or stateside, and in that regards continue to maintain my own standard of personal integrity which I had long before entering military service.

Might I recommend that you go stand in front of some of the returning Iraqi veterans and ask them how they can take any "pride" in having served their country, and especially how they could have any pride in wearing those "uniform" symbols of genocide; oppression, and murder, home.

Tom

P.S. In event the Presbyterian Church needs you as a Pastor, then I most certainly must take a long and serious look at my membership in the Presbyterian Church.

[David G. Healy]

'Craig Clark' wrote:

Hello, my first post.

I've really enjoyed the information here and Teacher Simkin has performed a great service, as most of you perhaps.

If, as I suspect, the assassination was primarily acted out by Military Intelligence (utilizing other like-minded Intelligence folk, and a slew of other sources: Mafia, Cubano, Corsican, White Russian, Texas Oil, Permindex,etc., until the whole apparatus becomes what one researcher coined [i quote from memory, excuse errors]: 'the conspiracy itself is the cover-up'); I take that to mean that so many threads were employed and so many trails were spun-off, that the sheer dizzying effect would cause even the most level-headed researcher to go vertigo, or stop, 'Aha!, at just one or two threads.

I think the guy in the beret, his mentality is sadly still in Viet Nam.

Perhaps we all should go to Viet Nam now and help take out some of those landmines there, or help all the Viet Namese children, deformed (Agent Orange babies), maybe we should all spend a vacation making ammends to the people of Viet Nam, because after all the smoke and bulls--t has cleared, the real freedom fighters were the Ho Chi Minh supporters, and not even the American Empire could still that fervent call to freedom from Western colonialists.

___________

dgh:******Oh brother -- 'another' closet Viet Cong... next we'll hear about all those malcontents the 'Crown' sent sailing west to populate and tame the new world.

Hang in there, the end of the world is coming we'll make sure you get to the head of the line... but we won't guarantee HIS judgement.***********

I'm sorry TP had to go, I wasn't in diapers, but that doesn't matter, that comment just shows how much pain TP is in.

dgh:******* I'm not sorry he went. Hell of a lot of guys made the *round* trip because he DID go, which leads to a question I won't ask. Btw, I made a round trip, too!

As a practicing member of the Roman Catholic flavor, I can only imagine what will come out of the mouths of babes next *********

It's hard to look at ourselves, our history of genocide, oppression, and murder, and still feel proud about the uniform.

America has a terrible case of amnesia! Read Zinn's 'People's History of the United States' for God's sake.

Part of our mission here could be to go a little bit public, to organize or join a 11/22 memorial ceremony (preferebly outside, but esp. in DC at the flame, and Dallas, LA, Memphis at the shooting sites).

Just my 2 sense.

dgh:******** would you like any change with that, sir? *************

btw:God bless America and God bless the rest of the world (incl. our enemies)!

dgh:************ don't look for quick fixes -- you're in-charge ************

Edited May 20, 2006 by David G. Healy

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

[Al Carrier]

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

Mr Purvis went out and contacted the legend in his own mind Ayoob and posted a reply from him on the forum. He waited until I was missing from the forum to do so. I have never said that Ayoob has not estabilished himself with the clueless agencies who reach out for a paper trail for training instead of establishing realistic training. That is what he has been good for. In the television magazine of some fifteen years ago (Glock, A Dangerous Weapon) the Master Ayoob jumps on the money trail bandwagon and attacks the now most popular law enforcement handgun on the market. A few years ago, he realizes his errors and has the gaul to write an article which I was appalled that was excepted by Glock in their own magazine that backs this state of the art weapon. In the television news magazine, he places his finger in the trigger of the Glock and strikes his forearm and detonates the weapon. If you slow the tape down, you see that he detonates the weapon prior to striking his forearm. The Glock has three internal safeties and no external. This was a too much for the prostitute to understand but instead chose to jump on the Smith and Wesson bandwagon to slam their competitor. I have a copy of the video and the magazine. I will produce it if necessary. He is a prostitute and nothing more.

I am tired of dealing with the likes of Purvis who I compare to the Jimmie Files followers who reach out and find their so-called experts to prove their points. Hell, I can go out into the cyberspace world and find experts who can put up and arguement that the world is flat. If one cannot understand the concept, then they will find followers on forums to eat it up. I am preaching to persons who cannot understand what is realistic expert background and what is bullxxxx. Therefore, I am wasting my breath.

Ayoob can contact me at my home address at polinst@mchsi.com if he really wishes to get into this.

Al

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

Mr Purvis went out and contacted the legend in his own mind Ayoob and posted a reply from him on the forum. He waited until I was missing from the forum to do so. I have never said that Ayoob has not estabilished himself with the clueless agencies who reach out for a paper trail for training instead of establishing realistic training. That is what he has been good for. In the television magazine of some fifteen years ago (Glock, A Dangerous Weapon) the Master Ayoob jumps on the money trail bandwagon and attacks the now most popular law enforcement handgun on the market. A few years ago, he realizes his errors and has the gaul to write an article which I was appalled that was excepted by Glock in their own magazine that backs this state of the art weapon. In the television news magazine, he places his finger in the trigger of the Glock and strikes his forearm and detonates the weapon. If you slow the tape down, you see that he detonates the weapon prior to striking his forearm. The Glock has three internal safeties and no external. This was a too much for the prostitute to understand but instead chose to jump on the Smith and Wesson bandwagon to slam their competitor. I have a copy of the video and the magazine. I will produce it if necessary. He is a prostitute and nothing more.

I am tired of dealing with the likes of Purvis who I compare to the Jimmie Files followers who reach out and find their so-called experts to prove their points. Hell, I can go out into the cyberspace world and find experts who can put up and arguement that the world is flat. If one cannot understand the concept, then they will find followers on forums to eat it up. I am preaching to persons who cannot understand what is realistic expert background and what is bullxxxx. Therefore, I am wasting my breath.

Ayoob can contact me at my home address at polinst@mchsi.com if he really wishes to get into this.

Al

Mr Purvis went out and contacted the legend in his own mind Ayoob and posted a reply from him on the forum.

Actually, Tom, who has known of Mr. Ayoob's whereabouts (email address) for a long, long time, sent the article to Mr. Ayoob.

Directly, as well as indirectly, there has been contact for a long time as there were other items of his American Handgunner article of which I had great interest and wanted to verify.

Which, was in fact verified.

He waited until I was missing from the forum to do so

Actually, Tom did not "wait" for anything, other than for Mr. Ayoob to respond to your ignorance.

Which he did, and then when he could not gain admission to the Forum (for whatever reason), he asked that I post his response.

As to your "missing" from the forum. Who are you kidding?

First off, you have been "missing" when dealing with all of the facts related to the assassination of JFK.

Ever heard the old saying "The door is open, but there is no one home"?

In that regards, each time that someone "calls" your hand on the erroneous information which you continue to provide, you "run" to another forum, leaving explanations that you are now conducting a "Peer Review"; that your family has been threatened; that someone has gained access to your computer and is posting messages in your name and in which have no knowledge; etc; etc; etc;

I am tired of dealing with the likes of Purvis who I compare to the Jimmie Files followers who reach out and find their so-called experts to prove their points

Correct me if I am wrong Al, but are you not the same "Al Carrier" who was once the faithful follower and complete convert of the great "Dangerous Dan Marvin", covert warrior extraordinare, AKA retired Quartermaster and Supply Corps Officer.

Or did someone else have your computer again and was lapping up that BS in your name also.

I am preaching to persons who cannot understand what is realistic expert background and what is bullxxxx. Therefore, I am wasting my breath.

Preaching to yourself again, are you?

Tom

[Al Carrier]

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

I stand by my statement that Ayoob is a prostitute and have and will always await his response. Which will never come.

Al

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that "never" has arrived!

Mr Purvis went out and contacted the legend in his own mind Ayoob and posted a reply from him on the forum. He waited until I was missing from the forum to do so. I have never said that Ayoob has not estabilished himself with the clueless agencies who reach out for a paper trail for training instead of establishing realistic training. That is what he has been good for. In the television magazine of some fifteen years ago (Glock, A Dangerous Weapon) the Master Ayoob jumps on the money trail bandwagon and attacks the now most popular law enforcement handgun on the market. A few years ago, he realizes his errors and has the gaul to write an article which I was appalled that was excepted by Glock in their own magazine that backs this state of the art weapon. In the television news magazine, he places his finger in the trigger of the Glock and strikes his forearm and detonates the weapon. If you slow the tape down, you see that he detonates the weapon prior to striking his forearm. The Glock has three internal safeties and no external. This was a too much for the prostitute to understand but instead chose to jump on the Smith and Wesson bandwagon to slam their competitor. I have a copy of the video and the magazine. I will produce it if necessary. He is a prostitute and nothing more.

I am tired of dealing with the likes of Purvis who I compare to the Jimmie Files followers who reach out and find their so-called experts to prove their points. Hell, I can go out into the cyberspace world and find experts who can put up and arguement that the world is flat. If one cannot understand the concept, then they will find followers on forums to eat it up. I am preaching to persons who cannot understand what is realistic expert background and what is bullxxxx. Therefore, I am wasting my breath.

Ayoob can contact me at my home address at polinst@mchsi.com if he really wishes to get into this.

Al

Mr Purvis went out and contacted the legend in his own mind Ayoob and posted a reply from him on the forum.

Actually, Tom, who has known of Mr. Ayoob's whereabouts (email address) for a long, long time, sent the article to Mr. Ayoob.

Directly, as well as indirectly, there has been contact for a long time as there were other items of his American Handgunner article of which I had great interest and wanted to verify.

Which, was in fact verified.

He waited until I was missing from the forum to do so

Actually, Tom did not "wait" for anything, other than for Mr. Ayoob to respond to your ignorance.

Which he did, and then when he could not gain admission to the Forum (for whatever reason), he asked that I post his response.

As to your "missing" from the forum. Who are you kidding?

First off, you have been "missing" when dealing with all of the facts related to the assassination of JFK.

Ever heard the old saying "The door is open, but there is no one home"?

In that regards, each time that someone "calls" your hand on the erroneous information which you continue to provide, you "run" to another forum, leaving explanations that you are now conducting a "Peer Review"; that your family has been threatened; that someone has gained access to your computer and is posting messages in your name and in which have no knowledge; etc; etc; etc;

I am tired of dealing with the likes of Purvis who I compare to the Jimmie Files followers who reach out and find their so-called experts to prove their points

Correct me if I am wrong Al, but are you not the same "Al Carrier" who was once the faithful follower and complete convert of the great "Dangerous Dan Marvin", covert warrior extraordinare, AKA retired Quartermaster and Supply Corps Officer.

Or did someone else have your computer again and was lapping up that BS in your name also.

I am preaching to persons who cannot understand what is realistic expert background and what is bullxxxx. Therefore, I am wasting my breath.

Preaching to yourself again, are you?

Tom

Tom,

First of all, I once went through a similar debate with Wim and his so-called expert Jimmie Files whom he posted his responses through letters from prison and then went onto a gun-nut forum and found derelicts to support his case. I won't do that again here at John's forum as I did at Lancer. If Ayoob wishes to debate, then let him come on this forum instead of going through you. I find Ayoob about as qualified as I did Files and you and Wim are running neck and neck.

I will add this however. In the video I am speaking of, Ayoob takes a Glock 17 and loads and charges it. He then points it at a paper target and then slaps his forearm on the radial nerve, causing the Glock to fire from a nerve reaction on the trigger. If you slow the video down, you will see that the pistol detonates prior to him striking his forearm. A lot of laughs in the law enforecment firearms community when it is pointed out. He can argue any studies, what he cannot argue is that Glock outsells other pistols together 10-1.

In this same video, he speaks of contact causing officers with their fingers in the triggers to detonate the pistol. The contact being their arm or hand struck. He missed the boat on this as it is not the officer being contacted, but the officer contacting the assailant by going hands-on with them. It is called sympathetic nerve reaction. In other words, when the officer grabs an assailant with their off-hand and has their finger on the trigger of the drawn pistol, the strong hand will also flex and squeeze the trigger subconsciously. I know I am speaking over both your and Ayoob's head here, because these are practical issues that have been concluded through realistic studies.

If anyone has the capability of transferring VHS onto digital video, I will gladly send them the video of Ayoob's comic show on the Glock and will also scan the article in the Glock magazine of several years later when he became a supporter of the now profitable weapon.

How much a year does Ayoob make at his school? Once a prostitute...

Enough said on this.

Al

[Chris Brown]

Mark;

Although fully aware that in all probability you (& most others) will neither accept nor believe it, for the record:

1. There was only ONE shooter.

2. Despite what many will state to the contrary, the 6.5mm Carcano Rifle (in relatively good condition), coupled with the WCC 6.5mm ammo, is a deadly combination.

Accuracy wise, the US Army Ballistics Research Laboratory compared the accuracy as being equivelant to our current US military weapons.

Armed with "match" quality weapons, the Italian Olympics Team had always done quite well and ranked quite high in Olympics Competition, with this weapon.

3. The planning was in fact quite thorough, which included the equi-distant yellow marks painted onto the curb of Elm Street through the "Kill Zone". Which, any shooter would easily recognize as "Range Markers".

Many will attempt to "Sell" this off as some sort of traffic control marking which was utilized by the Dallas Street Department.

Sounds good! However, since these yellow marks were painted only on the downrange & visible (from the TSDB) side of Elm St, and were exactly in the kill zone, and there were no other similar stripes painted onto the curbs of any other streets anywhere in the vicinity, then the "Traffic Control" scenario is a no-floater.

One could add to this the unconfirmed rumor that (I believe it was Jean Hill) got some of this yellow paint on her shoe, from it's being so freshly painted, and the purpose of these yellow marks becomes even more evident.

4. Were we to attempt to "stuff" all three shots fired in to the WC scenario with the Z-312/313 head shot being the Last/Final shot of the three, then the shooting sequence would obviously have to be rushed.

In that regard, exactly why would anyone believe much of anything as stated by the WC?

The Z-312/313 head shot being the SECOND shot, thereby gave the shooter, approximately 5.8 seconds from first shot to second shot.--------Run that one by your "Experts" and see how difficult they claim it is.

Thereafter, the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot came about, just about as fast as the weapon could be operated, which is of course in the 2.3 (+/-) interval, for a total shooting time of approximately 8.1 to 8.4 seconds.

Give that data to any true "shooter", and you may find that all of the garbage relative to the impossibility of the shots will go back into the garbage can.

In conclusion, anyone who attempts to resolve the issues by searching for the mythical "multiple assassin", will, if age permits, be here for another 40 + years.

The shooting sequence was not difficult, even without the range markers/aka yellow stripes.

The weapon and ammo were entirely capable of the accuracy which it achieved, which by the way was a relatively short distance.

The "target" in moving away from the shooter, virtually guaranteed a "hit", however one must also note that the second shot/aka Z-312/313 shot to the Cowlick area of the back of the head almost went high.

Since you claim to not be a "shooter", then might I recommend that you read up on the works of those such as Ayoob Massad in "AMERICAN HANDGUNNER" magazine.

And, even the resident Chiropractor on the John McAdams site, with relatively little experience, has managed to get off three shots in the 5.8 to 5.9 second time of the WC scenario.

So, would the shooting sequence, as presented by the WC be somewhat difficult?------Yes

Exactly why was it that you believed this BS in the first place?

As a final comment, might I recommend the 10 pages of the WC "circular reasoning" which deals with the "SHOT THAT MISSED", when in fact, other than the fragment strike on the curbe (Tague), there is no indication of any shot having missed.

The "Magic Bullet" did not miss.----Neither is it CE399, as CE399 has not pulled a disappearing act.

Tom

Hi Tom,

No one (not even master marksmen) have duplicated L O Oswald’s alleged performance.

The late Carlos Hathcock an ex marine sniper & instructor could not duplicate it. Craig Roberts (A former marine sniper) after studying the alleged snipers lair said it was impossible.

Tom, have you ever duplicated Oswald's ALLEGED shooting performance.

Chris Brown.

[Jack White]

I have been reading this post thru out and so far have not read anywhere or heard anyone explain, who, if Oswald was the lone shooter with no help, who ,i ask again, PAINTED THE STRIPES ?

Jim feemster

Jim, if you are talking about the yellow atripes on the curb ... they had been there as far back as the mid to late 50's before JFK was ever elected President. I have questioned several old time cab and bus drivers in Dallas and their remarks were consistent. Such stripes were painted on the curbs in and around Dallas where there were bends in the road. The stripes were to alert drivers at night that the road curves.

Bill

This is STUPID! The plaza is lighted at night by numerous streetlights.

It is never dark. I have driven all over Dallas for years and have

never seen such curb stripes. There are no others in Dealey Plaza

except the four on Elm Street. If they warned of a curve, they are

on the wrong side of the street, as it curves AWAY to the left, not

as drivers are headed toward the curb at the right. The stripes

would have been on BOTH SIDES of the street if they signified

a curve, BUT WERE ONLY ON THE LEFT GOING WEST! Old-time

cab drivers? Gimme a break! Hardly a job where there are

long-time professionals!

Where did Beverly Oliver step in the same color wet yellow paint

that day?

Why were the stripes painted a foot longer sometime after

that day?

Lone Nutters will make up anything.

Jack