Lee Harvey Oswald

[Antti Hynonen]

First of all I would like to thank Mr. Simkin for his contributions towards us having such a high quality forum available. Secondly it has been a pleasure to read the findings and opinions of so many seasoned Kennedy assassination specialists.

Further I would like to point out that what I will write next is purely my opinion, which has been formed over the years during which I have been interested in this case. I have tried to be as objective as possible in assessing all the information that I have read about.

My interest in the Kennedy assassination started in 1991 when I first saw Stone's movie JFK. I have been intensively reading and studying this issue for about one year now, although I have had somewhat limited time to invest in the matter I believe I have some foundation for my views. Due to limited time I haven't focused on examining what seems obvious about the case. Instead the issues which, as far as I know, remain unanswered are the most interesting ones. To me seems as the majority of the individuals focused on the Kennedy assassination can agree on some general, well-known basic (obvious) facts:

• JFK was murdered by a number of assassins greater than one. This implies a conspiracy.

• There was a serious attempt to frame Lee Harvey Oswald as the (sole) assassin.

• A spectacular cover-up attempting to hide the true facts and witnesses of the murder-case started probably already well before November 22nd 1963.

• In order for the cover-up to have been as successful as it was, it must have involved elements of the following: the media, the CIA, the Warren Commission, the conspirators and possibly the organized crime figures presented in many of the proposed theories. As we know their work wasn't perfect.

• Unfortunately it is true that many high ranking US government officials, government related law enforcement institutions (and other) less official organizations have been heavily involved in the cover-up process. Not to mention the organized crime figures of that era.

• A lot of false information is available. Most of it but not all of it has been generated by some of the institutions referred to above, in the hopes that it would create enough confusion and mistrust to undermine the truth, in case it should ever become known. Naturally also many individuals somehow related to Dallas or New Orleans in 1963, and their next-of-kin and associates have also played a part in falsely claiming foreknowledge of the event and/or actually having had a part in the crime of the century. The desire for money makes people do crazy stuff.

I don't know if there are other's out there who have looked into Lee Harvey Oswald, and particularly how he was framed so cleverly, but I'm hoping someone can answer some of the questions that I have concerning his involvement. More precisely I'm interested in facts that helped such a vast number of the general public of the time become convinced that LHO was the sole assassin.

1. Who was LHO's CIA and mob contact? DeMohrenschildt? Ruby? Phillips?

2. Who put LHO up to shooting at General E. Walker? DeMohrenschildt?

3. Why did LHO agree to bring in the Mannlicher Carcano to work?

4. Why did LHO ask his wife to take the infamous backyard photos?

5. In case LHO knew what was going to go down, how did he expect to interfere and then escape unharmed?

6. Isn't it funny that a "high-society" man in his fifties is the best friend of LHO, who is 24 and unemployed or a laborer?

Some other thoughts:

Here's my view of how Ruby got involved:

Ruby owed somebody in the mob big time, whether it was money or whether someone saved his life after he messed something up, I don't know. This probably happened a while back, before 1963, possibly already when he was in Chicago.

November 24th 1963, was the day when it was time for Ruby to pay back.

He had been told about what was going to go down in advance, and in case Oswald was arrested it would be Ruby's duty to go "take care of it". LHO had to be done because there was a risk that he might talk, since he knew way too much (much more than Ruby).

Of course to make it more interesting for Ruby, he was told: "if you won't do it right, we'll start by getting your sister, then your brother and then everyone else. So don't miss."

Ruby of course was relieved when he heard Oswald was dead, now he didn't have to fear for the lives of his family. Well, as long as he didn't talk himself. He considered spilling the beans when he spoke to the commission in jail. Well, we all know the rest...

I think Jim Garrison was on the right tracks; however I believe he encountered the figures who were more involved in the sheep dipping. I think that's what the whole New Orleans thing had to do with. As if it wasn't enough that LHO had already "defected" to Russia, he had to be made to seem like a full blown commie to the public. I wonder why he went along with that, so far?

The Conspirators:

Well, for me this would be the hardest to explain (due to lack of evidence, if you don't include individual statements). However, if you take some select members of the John Birch Society (Dallas, Texas mostly), wealthy (Dallas) Texas oil men, their friends in Washington DC you will probably have at least some of the high level organizers.

There's a definite link from Oswald to DeMohrenschildt, from DeMohrenschildt to Murchison, from Murchison to Hunt etc. etc. to Washington DC. The men with money financed the entire deal.

The Mob:

In addition to having Ruby by the balls, they could have provided one or more shooters for the plaza. Lt. Col. Dan Marvin said something to this effect; "in the US the mafia would take care of the hits".

In my view whether the actual shooters were ex-military, current military or purely mafia trained sharpshooters isn't that significant.

If anyone would like to comment or provide answers to one or more of the questions that I have, I would be grateful.

Antti Hynönen

Helsinki, Finland

[McGoo]

I read your opinions with interest and as always on this subject, become increasingly confused by the never ending web of possible scenarios, motives, conspirators etc.

The 'cover up' comes from the top in my opinion. LBJ, Hoover, CIA etc.

Take any 'run of the mill' murder. In most cases you have a victim, a likely motive, at most 2 or 3 main suspects and where there is no immediate conclusion, an investigating team of police etc. The JFK murder required all of the usual ingredients to be diluted beyond belief to effectively cover the tracks of the true conspirators.

To do this requires long term maticulous planning, financing, media control, government involvement, dummy leads, witnesses with conflicting stories, rumours, more rumours, a few more rumours etc.

Who could achieve this level of deceit? Probably all the very people who benefitted most from the assassination. I believe we will never know the truth and to a great extent, we will only ever know what the powers that be want us to know.

Disinformation, drip feeding, evidence being witheld and ignored at the time, seemingly sloppy police work, etc. The perfect crime.

The countries top pathologists couldn't even agree on where the back wounds were, whether the throat wound was a bullet hole or the result of a trachaeostomy. Have you ever heard of anything so ridiculous?

Edited April 23, 2004 by McGoo

[John Simkin]

1. Who was LHO's CIA and mob contact? DeMohrenschildt? Ruby? Phillips?

2. Who put LHO up to shooting at General E. Walker? DeMohrenschildt?

3. Why did LHO agree to bring in the Mannlicher Carcano to work?

4. Why did LHO ask his wife to take the infamous backyard photos?

5. In case LHO knew what was going to go down, how did he expect to interfere and then escape unharmed?

6. Isn't it funny that a "high-society" man in his fifties is the best friend of LHO, who is 24 and unemployed or a laborer?

1. Who was LHO's CIA and mob contact? DeMohrenschildt? Ruby? Phillips? 1. Who was LHO's CIA and mob contact? DeMohrenschildt? Ruby? Phillips?

1. I don’t believe the evidence allows us to answer that question. However, his likely mob contact was Charles (Dutz) Murret. His wife, Lillian Murret, was the sister of Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. When Oswald was a child he lived with the Murret family. Oswald returned to the Murret home after arriving back from the Soviet Union in 1962.

In the Warren Commission Murret was portrayed as a steamship clerk. However, the House Select Committee on Assassinations discovered that Murret was an illegal bookmaker. Murret was also an associate of Sam Saia, one of the leaders of organized crime in New Orleans. Saia was also a close friend of Carlos Marcello. Another of Murret's associates, Nofio Pecora, was linked to Jack Ruby. According to a FBI informant in 1979 Marcello admitted having known both Murret and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Murret’s was very unconvincing when interviewed by Albert Jenner on behalf of the Warren Commission. He seemed to be unable to remember very much about his contacts with Oswald. He was not asked about his links to organized crime.

2. Who put LHO up to shooting at General E. Walker? DeMohrenschildt?

2. It is highly unlikely that Oswald did shoot at Walker. There was a witness to the shooting. Kirk Coleman saw two men making their escape, one stopped to place something in the back of his Ford sedan, then they both drove off in different cars. As Oswald could not drive this has raised serious doubts if he could have been involved in this attempt on Walker's life.

The evidence against Oswald mainly came from his wife Marina. She told the FBI: “she "asked him what happened, and he said that he just tried to shoot General Walker. I asked him who General Walker was. I mean how dare you to go and claim somebody's life, and he said "Well, what would you say if somebody got rid of Hitler at the right time? So if you don't know about General Walker, how can you speak up on his behalf?." Because he told me... he was something equal to what he called him a fascist."

Why would Marina implicate her husband in a crime he did not commit? I will answer that in the answer to Q4.

It was very important to the Warren Commission that Oswald had tried to kill Walker. In its report it said that one of the major reasons they believed Oswald was capable of killing Kennedy was “his capacity for violence as evidenced by his attempt to kill General Walker.”

Walker plays an important role in the assassination of Kennedy. Walker was a strong supporter of the far-right John Birch Society. In April 1961 Walker was accused of indoctrinating his troops with right-wing literature. With the agreement of President John F. Kennedy, Defence Secretary Robert S. McNamara relieved Walker of his command and announced an investigation into the affair. Kennedy was accused of trying to suppress the anti-Communist feelings of the military. Walker resigned from the army in protest about the way he had been treated.

One of the soldiers who Walker successfully indoctrinated was Larrie Schmidt. After the leaving the army he settled in Dallas. He was a member of the John Birch Society in Dallas. His brother worked as Walker’s chauffeur. Schmidt later invited Bernard Weissman to Dallas. Weissman was then introduced to Joe Grinnan, another member of the John Birch Society. Grinnan was involved in organizing protests against the visit of John F. Kennedy. Grinnan seemed to know about the visit before it was officially announced to the public. Grinnan suggested that they should place a black-bordered advert in the Dallas Morning News on 22nd November, 1963. The advert cost $1,465. Grinnan supplied the money. He claimed that some of this came from Nelson Bunker Hunt, the son of Haroldson L. Hunt. Weissman was given the task of signing the advert and taking it to the newspaper office.

After the assassination, Walker, Grinnan, Weissman and Schmidt all fled from Dallas.

3. Why did LHO agree to bring in the Mannlicher Carcano to work?

3. It is debateable whether Oswald did take the rifle into work. Only two people saw him take the package into the Texas Book Depository. Wesley Buell Frazier and his sister, Linnie Mae Randle.

In September, 1963, Frazier began work at the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas. The following month, Ruth Paine, a neighbour of Linnie Mae Randle, told her that Lee Harvey Oswald was going to work at the same building. The two men became friends and Frazier agreed to give Oswald a lift to work when he was staying at Paine's house in Irving.

On 22nd November, 1963, Frazier gave Oswald a lift to the Texas Book Depository. He told the Warren Commission that Oswald took a package into work that day that he claimed contained curtain rods. In his book The Kennedy Conspiracy, Anthony Summers, points out: "Ironically, it was Frazier and his sister who created a slight doubt that Oswald had, in fact, been carrying the murder weapon rather than his "curtain rods." Both insisted Oswald's parcel was a good eight inches shorter than the disassembled Mannlicher-Carcano. Frazier demonstrated this by showing that Oswald could not physically have carried a 35-inch rifle tucked into his armpit with the base cupped in his hand, as Frazier remembered."

Only Jack Dougherty saw Oswald enter the Texas Book Depository on 22nd November, 1963. However, he told the Warren Commission that Oswald was not carrying "anything in his hands" when he arrived that morning.

A group of Dallas Police Department detectives, including Will Fritz, Seymour Weitzman, Roger Craig, Eugene Boone and Luke Mooney searched the Texas School Book Depository soon after the assassination of John F. Kennedy. On the sixth floor they discovered a rifle hidden beneath some boxes. At first the detectives identified it as a 7.65 Mauser. The officers had no doubts about their identification and affidavits were drawn up by Boone and Weitzman, who described the weapon in detail, noting the colour of the sling and the scope. District Attorney Henry M. Wade, in a television interview, referred to the sixth-floor discovery and quoted the weapon as a Mauser, a statement picked up by the press and reported widely.

It was the FBI who announced that the officers had been mistaken. According to them it was a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano, an Italian bolt-action rifle used in the Second World War. All the detectives agreed to change their mind about the rifle except Roger Craig. He appears to have been the only honest police in Dallas. He also testified at the Warren Commission that he thought shots had been fired from the Grassy Knoll and that he had seen Oswald get into a car soon after the assassination. Craig was forced to resign from the Dallas Police Department and after several attempts to murder him, he took his own life.

The FBI claimed that the rifle had been purchased from Klein's sporting goods in Chicago on 12th March, 1963, by a man using the name, A. J. Hiddell. When Oswald was arrested he was carrying a forged identity card bearing the name Alek J. Hiddell. This is in itself very strange. In Texas at that time it was possible to buy guns in shops without having to show any identification. Why did Oswald buy a rifle with a false name by mail order that could be traced back to him? Once again, Oswald appears to have been set-up as the assassin.

4. Why did LHO ask his wife to take the infamous backyard photos?

4. It is highly unlikely that he did. Yet Marina Oswald told the FBI that she did. Why would she do this if it was untrue? It has to be remembered that by this time Oswald was dead. If he had been alive she could not have been forced to testify against him in court. Marina later claimed that the FBI was threatening to have her deported if she not cooperate with their investigation. Oswald was dead and she was still alive. Understandably she told the FBI what they wanted to hear. This also explains why she told the FBI that her husband had tried to kill Walker.

As you probably know, many researchers believe the photograph is a fake. It also seems strange that Oswald would want to pose for such a photograph. He also sent a signed copy (with the words “hunter of fascists”) of the photograph to DeMohrenschildt. They made several mistakes with this set-up. One concerns the two socialist newspapers he was holding. They reflected the views of two opposing groups: one pro Stalin and one pro Trotsky. It is of course impossible to believe that Oswald would have subscribed to both these newspapers.

5. In case LHO knew what was going to go down, how did he expect to interfere and then escape unharmed?

5. The Warren Commission had problems with this. If the evidence presented by the FBI was true, it would seem that Oswald wanted to be caught. Therefore the WC claimed that Oswald killed Kennedy so that he could make his mark in history. They did not try to explain why Oswald always denied he was responsible (he made the valid point about why would a Marxist murder Kennedy in order that he should be replaced with someone following the same anti-Castro policies). In fact, Oswald correctly claimed he was a “patsy”.

6. Isn't it funny that a "high-society" man in his fifties is the best friend of LHO, who is 24 and unemployed or a laborer?

6. George DeMohrenschildt is a crucial figure in the Kennedy assassination. The son of a wealthy noble, he was born in Russia. Both his parents suffered at the hands of the Bolsheviks. He later claimed he had involved in a pro-Nazi plot to kill Joseph Stalin. De Mohrenschildt reached the United States in 1938. The British intelligence services warned the American government that they suspected that De Monrenschildt was working for German intelligence.

DeMohrenschildt went to work for the Shumaker company in New York. He worked under Pierre Fraiss who was connected with French intelligence. De Mohrenschildt agreed to collect information on people involved in "pro-German activity". In 1939 he went to work for Humble Oil, a company founded by Prescott Bush (George Bush’s grandfather with large investments in Nazi Germany).

After the Second World War De Mohrenschildt settled in Dallas where he worked for the oil millionaire, Clint Murchison. During this period he got to know Jackie Kennedy.

In October, 1962 De Mohrenschildt became friends with Lee Harvey Oswald in Fort Worth. He suggested that Oswald should move to Dallas. In February, 1963 he introduced Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald to Ruth Paine. On 24th April, 1963, Marina and her daughter went to live with Paine. Oswald rented a room in Dallas but stored some of his possessions in Ruth Paine’s garage. Ruth also helped Oswald to get a job at the Texas Book Depository.

As you say, the friendship between De Mohrenschildt and Oswald seems a strange one. De Mohrenschildt was on the extreme right and Oswald was a proclaimed Marxist. Ruth Paine was also on the left and was an active member of the American Civil Liberties Union. (In a phone call that J. Edgar Hoover made to LBJ the day after the assassination, he indicated that the American Civil Liberties Union and other civil rights organizations were involved in the killing of Kennedy).

In 1963 De Mohrenschildt moved to Haiti. After the assassination of John F. Kennedy, De Mohrenschildt was recalled to America to testify before the Warren Commission. He was asked about the claim of Marina Oswald that he knew about Oswald's attempt to kill General Edwin Walker. After giving evidence he returned to Haiti.

De Mohrenschildt returned to the United States in 1977. He approached Edward Jay Epstein complaining that he was short of money. Epstein offered him $4,000 for an interview. During their talks De Mohrenschildt admitted that in 1962 he had been contacted by J. Walton Moore, who was employed by the Central Intelligence Agency in Dallas. De Mohrenschildt was asked by Moore to find out about Oswald's time in the Soviet Union. In return he was given help with an oil deal he was negotiating with Papa Doc Duvalier, the Haitian dictator. In March 1963, De Mohrenschildt got the contract from the Haitian government. He had assumed that this was because of the help he had given to the CIA.

On 29th March, 1977, Epstein and De Mohrenschildt, broke for lunch and decided to meet again at 3 p.m. George De Mohrenschildt returned to his room where he found a card from Gaeton Fonzi, an investigator working for the Select House Committee on Assassinations. George De Mohrenschildt's body was found later that day. He had apparently committed suicide by shooting himself in the mouth.

You can find further details of all these characters at:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKindex.htm

[Ian Griggs]

Antti,

Concerning the claim that Oswald carried a rifle to work on 22nd November 1963, I think you will find a few of the answers in my extensive article "The Paper Bag That Never Was" in the Articles section of the Dealey Plaza UK website at www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk Please feel free to contact me by private email if I can expand on anything there.

Incidentally, I visited your beautiful city in August 2000, staying at the Torni Hotel at Yrjönkatu 26 - just at Oswald had done back in 1959. I also visited the Klaus Kurki Hotel but was unable to study the hotel books and records as these had been lost when both hotels were sold to their present owners, the Sokos Hotel Group, in the early 1970s. My few days in Helsinki demonstrated to me how odd it was that someone like Oswald - said to be some sort of penniless drifter - was able to stay at two such expensive hotels for five nights.

Regards,

IAN

[Antti Hynonen]

John; thank you for your thorough response. I do agree that the scenarios you present are possibilities. However I do not fully share all your views. I will debate some of the opposing views here.

Also thanks to "McGoo" and to Ian Griggs for contributing their views.

1. Who was LHO's CIA and mob contact? DeMohrenschildt? Ruby? Phillips?

This statement concerning David A. Phillips is what primarily causes me to consider Phillips' involvement at least to the extent stated here:

David Atlee Phillips died of cancer on 7th July, 1988. He left behind an unpublished manuscript. The novel is about a CIA officer who lived in Mexico City. In the novel the character states: "I was one of those officers who handled Lee Harvey Oswald... We gave him the mission of killing Fidel Castro in Cuba... I don't know why he killed Kennedy. But I do know he used precisely the plan we had devised against Castro. Thus the CIA did not anticipate the president's assassination, but it was responsible for it. I share that guilt."

As to Marina Oswald Porter. I do think that she has been honest in her depositions she has given to both the Warren commission and the HSCA, at least when it comes to the photos, the Walker incident and LHO's possessing a rifle. In any case at least since the 90's she has claimed that her former husband is innocent and she would love to do whatever she can to prove him innocent. As far as I know she is still alive and well, living in Flower Mound TX, a "suburb" of Irving or Dallas TX. I recall that she has two phone numbers under her name Marina Porter in Flower Mound TX. I could be mistaken, but I believe it's her in FM. Maybe she's ready for a lie detector test or hypnosis or something so we could establish whether she is speaking the truth. Is anyone down there willing to approach her?

Although she could certainly have lied both to the WC as well as the HSCA, I doubt it. At the HSCA time she was already remarried to another American, spoke the language, meaning she had a better support system and that she was less scared. Also I think she was ready for the truth to come out by the time of the HSCA hearing.

I'm betting on DeMohrenschildt, Ruby and the Cubans as having been LHO's contacts.

2. Who put LHO up to shooting at General E. Walker? DeMohrenschildt?

Excerpt from G. DeMohrenschildt's deposition for the Warner Commission:

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT: And I think Oswald and I were standing near the window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look, George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look?

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?"

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face, you know.

He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question.

Mr. JENNER. He became tense?

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Became tense, you see, and didn't answer anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic, made a peculiar face.

Mr. JENNER. The expression on his face?

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, changed the expression on his face.

Mr. JENNER. You saw that your remark to him----

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had an effect on him.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Had an effect on him. But naturally he did not say yes or no, but that was it. That is the whole incident. I remember after we were leaving, Marina went in the garden and picked up a large bouquet of roses for us. They have nice roses downstairs and gave us the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit.

According to this there were 4 people present when this discussion/incident occurred. I doubt that 3 of them (Mr. and Mrs. DeM and Marina) where in on a conspiracy to incriminate LHO, although possible.

Actually I think George DeM. could have been one of the men driving one of the cars that night.

I'm saying is Lee and probably two other people were in on the Walker shooting (due to witness testimony referring to at least two people leaving in two separate cars). I think Lee was the shooter, though.

As we know he missed, possibly on purpose.

3. Why did LHO agree to bring in the Mannlicher Carcano to work?

I believe Wes Frazier is telling the truth, so is his sister. Of course they can't claim that they (or we) know for sure what was inside the paper bag, but since no one from the Irving residence remembers LHO talking about any curtain rods that he was supposed to take to Dallas, I think it probably did contain the weapon. Let's remember that Wes Frazier described the package as being:

From WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.

Mr. BALL - It was, what part of the back seat was it in?

Mr. FRAZIER - It was in his side over on his side in the far back.

Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?

Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.

Mr. BALL - From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?

Mr. FRAZIER - If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.

In case Frazier was told to make up this story, he probably would have discussed the size of the bag in detail with whoever would have put him up to it.

Additionally, both Marina and Mrs. Paine were asked about the curtain rods.

This is from the Shaw trial, questioning by Mr. Diamond. Marina gave the same answers to the WC.

Q: Now, had you purchased any curtain rods for him?

A: No, sir.

Q: Had he asked you to purchase any curtain rods for him?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did he mention that he had come home to get any curtain rods?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever see any curtain rods in his possession on that night?

A: No.

Q: Did he ever mention to you that he was decorating his apartment in Dallas?

A: No, sir.

Q: To your knowledge, did Mrs. Paine give him any curtain rods on that night?

A: No, sir.

This is Jenner questioning Mrs. Ruth H. Paine for the WC:

Mr. JENNER - Now, that morning--if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine, did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE - I believe there were.

Mr. JENNER - Do you have a recollection?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown paper.

Mr. JENNER - Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - Had you wrapped that package yourself?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow. Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please?

Mrs. PAINE - They were a light weight.

Mr. JENNER - Excuse me; do you still have them?

Mrs. PAINE - I still have them.

Mr. JENNER - All right

I happen to believe in Wes Frazier's statements, although the conspirators probably did get to a number of witnesses, I doubt they asked Wes Frazier to make up this story. Why Dougherty hadn't seen Oswald with the bag, I don't know. Maybe Oswald had placed/hidden it somewhere inside the building before Dougherty actually saw him.

Since Lee sometimes spent time in the garage, he probably saw Mrs. Paine's bag of curtain rods in the garage and thought that might be a good explanation when he needed to take the rifle to work.

The blanket that Marina pointed to in the garage was empty. Or did Marina also plant an empty blanket in the garage to incriminate her husband even more?

Lee's behavior on November 21st and 22nd 1963:

In my view Lee was to play a part in some event that was supposed to take place on Nov. 22nd 1963, why else would he have behaved so differently on Nov. 21st and Nov. 22nd compared to any other week that he had worked for the TSBD? I don't buy the explanation of a birthday party on the week-end as the only reason for coming during the week.

Whether Lee knew of the assassination of the President itself I can't say. I do want to believe the theorists who claim that he was supposed to interfere with the assassination attempt and make sure it would never take place.

Shortly after the shots were fired Lee left the building, went home, changed clothes quickly, took a hand gun and walked to the movie theater were he was arrested. Let's not go into whether or not he shot Tippit. Why did he need a gun, if he was going to the movie theater to watch a show?

He was on the run. Something went really wrong at the TSBD and Dealy Plaza, Lee was now afraid he would be arrested for shooting at the President. After all he did bring a rifle to the building that day...

4. Why did LHO ask his wife to take the infamous backyard photos?

What puzzles me is that since Marina seems cooperative and seems willing to do whatever she reasonably can, why can't the JFK researchers physically closer to her establish what she knows for sure by the means mentioned earlier. It would end a number of puzzling questions.

I do think that the photos are real. I think since the Dallas police was the first to get their hands on them, right after the deed on Nov. 22nd 1963, they were authentic. I doubt that anyone had a chance to enter false evidence into the Paine garage before that time. Had the FBI or CIA gotten there first, I would doubt their authenticity.

The only thing about the photos that makes me somewhat unsure about my claim is why Marina has trouble remembering (HSCA) exactly what she did with one of these photos was it right after? The police had been to the Paine residence the first time. Since she burned one copy, I would think that she would remember that the rest of her life.

In my view Lee agreed on having the photos made on the same grounds that he agreed to give out Free Cuba leaflets in New Orleans, take part in political debates/interviews on the radio and "defect" to Russia etc. Too bad he didn't know what damage they would do to him later.

5. In case LHO knew what was going to go down, how did he expect to interfere and then escape unharmed?

In my view Lee was to play a part in some event that was supposed to take place on Nov. 22nd 1963, why else would he have behaved so differently on Nov. 21st and Nov. 22nd compared to any other week that he had worked for the TSBD?

Whether Lee knew of the assassination of the President itself I don't know. I do want to believe the theorists who claim that he was supposed to interfere with the assassination attempt and make sure it would never take place.

There are just too many events and coincidences occurring on those days which are not favorable to Oswald's total unawareness of at least some of the events which unfolded.

6. Isn't it funny that a "high-society" man in his fifties is the best friend of LHO, who is 24 and unemployed or a laborer?

We agree, weird combination of individuals being friends.... something fishy there!

I have read the police reports of the Palm Beach county Police, regarding DeMohrenschildt's "suicide". It really seems like he did commit suicide, he was under a lot of pressure towards his last years of his life. I have asked Epstein via e-mail (through his website) whether he believes DeM actually committed suicide, no reply yet.

Furthermore, I would like to state that I seriously doubt that the Dallas PD was involved in the conspiracy to a large extent. I think they would have done a good job in solving most of the case if their work hadn't been interfered with. They were getting too close, so the FBI took over.

Any further comments?

As to Mr. Griggs' comment on the Hotels and Helsinki; thank you for your kind comments on my home town!

Yes, it is a little weird that he would choose those particular ones, although they are both relatively centrally located and not far from the Russian Embassy. I remember reading that Oswald had saved his military salary (probably for such a trip) and that the amount was somewhat large (at least compared to the money Oswald normally had available). He may have thought that once he got to Russia, they would receive him with open arms and provide him with the essentials for no cost and also provide him with housing and work if he so desired. After all he had decided to defect to Russia, he wouldn't need western money anymore, so why not blow it on a nice hotel??!!!! Right??!?!

[Jack White]

Reasons why the backyard photographs are faked.

(1) Same Lee Harvey Oswald face on 3 bodies.

(2) Chin is square, not pointed.

(3) Fingers are chopped off.

(4) Shadows are wrong.

(5) Left arm is too short.

(6) Rifle is wrong length

(7) Body is out of balance.

(8) Newspapers are wrong size.

(9) Rifle swivels are in the wrong place.

[Antti Hynonen]

Thank you Mr. White, for posting the conclusions from your research into the photos to this Forum.

For the time being I will assume that the photos are indeed fakes and have been "planted" as evidence to incriminate Lee Harvey Oswald.

As I discussed earlier, the best way to put an end to the claims of all those who state that the photos might not be forged is to go to the person who actually claims, she took the photos.

Have you or any of your research colleagues in the Dallas / Fort Worth area ever attempted to approach Marina with regard to the photos? (As far as I know she still claims she took them, and on the other hand she now claims her ex-husband is innocent).

Not being an expert in the field I don't know what would be the best civilized way to obtain the truth out of a witness. However, I believe something along the lines of a lie detector test or questioning under hypnosis may serve the purpose.

Since many of the witnesses of the time have deceased, some naturally some murdered etc. time is running out. I don't think any new evidence will emerge. The only hopes are to re-question the key witnesses who are still around.

If Marina N. Porter has lied, she holds within her the key witness testimony that would turn the JFK case around once and for all. She claims not only that she took the backyard photos, she also claims Lee confessed to her that he shot at Gen. Walker and that he intended to attend an event where Richard Nixon was present, carrying his hand gun (there never was an event where Nixon was supposed to speak in New Orleans at that time).

Why not go to the "horse's mouth"? Of course perjury may become an issue.

Antti Hynönen

[John Simkin]

As to Marina Oswald Porter. I do think that she has been honest in her depositions she has given to both the Warren commission and the HSCA, at least when it comes to the photos, the Walker incident and LHO's possessing a rifle. In any case at least since the 90's she has claimed that her former husband is innocent and she would love to do whatever she can to prove him innocent. As far as I know she is still alive and well, living in Flower Mound TX, a "suburb" of Irving or Dallas TX. I recall that she has two phone numbers under her name Marina Porter in Flower Mound TX. I could be mistaken, but I believe it's her in FM. Maybe she's ready for a lie detector test or hypnosis or something so we could establish whether she is speaking the truth. Is anyone down there willing to approach her?

This is a very good point. I have posted your comments on a couple of forums for JFK researchers based in the United States. We also have a few members who have interviewed several witnesses in this case (Jack White, Larry Hancock, Martin Shackelford, Ian Griggs). Hopefully, they will reply to your posting.

[Antti Hynonen]

Let us add another living key witness to the list: Buell W. Frazier. He also lives in the Dallas Ft. Worth area.

He of course witnessed the existence of the brown paper bag which he claims he saw Lee carry to the TSBD. He also said that Lee told him the 2 ft. long bag contained curtain rods. If there never was such a bag or curtain rods, this matter could also be verified by the same means as suggested by me earlier.

There is an Irving and a Lewisville address available for Buell W. Frazier, age 59.

Marina by the way is probably the Marina N. Porter in either Rockwall or Bedford TX, and probably not the Marina Porter of Flower Mound as I stated earlier.

Antti Hynönen

[John Simkin]

Let us add another living key witness to the list: Buell W. Frazier. He also lives in the Dallas Ft. Worth area.

Better still. Invite Marina Oswald and Buell W. Frazier to join the forum so that they can be questioned by members. To important witnesses, Judyth Baker and Adele Edisen are members and are willing to answer questions on what they know.

[John Simkin]

If Marina N. Porter has lied, she holds within her the key witness testimony that would turn the JFK case around once and for all. She claims not only that she took the backyard photos, she also claims Lee confessed to her that he shot at Gen. Walker and that he intended to attend an event where Richard Nixon was present, carrying his hand gun (there never was an event where Nixon was supposed to speak in New Orleans at that time).

Marina Oswald did speak with Oprah Winfrey in 1996, on the thirty-third anniversary of the assassination, to explain her current belief in Oswald's innocence.

A transcript of the interview can be found here:

http://www.jfkresearch.com/marina/marina.htm

[Antti Hynonen]

Also in Nigel Turner's series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy", she tells us her ex-husband could never have done it. She also says something along the lines: "not knowing the truth will destroy this Nation".

As far as I can tell neither in neither Oprah Winfrey's show nor in "The Men who Killed Kennedy" does she claim other than what she testified in front of the WC or the HSCA regarding:

1) Her taking the backyard photos (Oswald claimed that these were fakes)

2) The Gen. Walker incident

3) The Nixon incident

4) Oswald possessing a rifle (To the police Oswald claimed he never owned a rifle)

In fact, just as Marina says in the interview which you kindly posted John; her testimony was probably one of the most destructive in terms of portraying Oswald as the assassin of JFK.

The Truth shall set you free.

Antti Hynönen

Edited April 27, 2004 by John Simkin

[John Simkin]

I have several responses to my posting yesterday on several forums about Marina. Several researchers say she is currently unwilling to talk about the case. What comes out of her interview with Oprah Winfrey is her unwillingness to say she lied to the Warren Commission. Maybe she has been threatened with legal action if she admits she did this? However, what is clear from those like Adele Edisen and Jack White who have spoken to her, is that she does not believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed John F. Kennedy.

[Antti Hynonen]

Well, it would have been too easy. I'm sure I wasn't the first to suggest this.

On the other hand, she has appeared on TV a few times in the 1990's. It seems like her attitude towards the intimidating government agencies is slowly changing.

Maybe the time for an amended statement by her is closer to occurring now than ever before.

Marian Wright Edelman: "You just need to be a flea against injustice. Enough committed fleas biting strategically can make even the biggest dog uncomfortable and transform even the biggest nation."

Antti Hynönen

[John Simkin]

I have had several replies to my question about interviewing Marina Oswald. This is what one contributor wrote:

Marina has zero credibility. I know there are lots of researchers who have met her, like her and believe in her. They see her as a victim, which I think she was, too. I can forgive the ridiculous, unbelievable testimony she gave to the Warren Commission. Undoubtedly, it was coerced and she had good reason to feel threatened and tell the authorities what they wanted to hear. However, by the mid-1970s at the very latest, when there was a critical firestorm brewing around this subject, with all public opinion polls showing the vast majority of Americans thought the official story of the assassination was wrong, Marina should have gone public with her doubts. Even when she finally turned around on the subject in the late 1980s, she refused to explain her inconsistent, highly damaging testimony. She was never grilled on her relationship with Ruth Paine. She has not, to my knowledge, ever admitted that any of her testimony before the Warren Commission was untrue. Not even the Gen. Walker story, or the even more absurd locking Oswald in the bathroom to prevent him from shooting Nixon story. I will believe Marina when she admits that she lied repeatedly to the Warren Commission.

I also spoke to someone yesterday who has interviewed her several times. He points out that it is extremely difficult to get her to say anything of worth about the case. She has also refused large sums of money to tell the real story of what happened. Is it difficult to understand why this is. Maybe she is being paid even larger sums not to talk about the case.