Shooter, Radioman, Spotter

[Craig Lamson]

Waste of time perhaps - this is a comparison using a high res scan from 4 Dark Days [crop on the top]. I think that it is a compelling comparison, even if it isn't conclusive.

Anyone have any ideas on how to acquire a high res scan of the original Moorman polaroid?

- lee

Lee,

Gary Mack sent me this:

"Craig, you should mention that the negative is slightly out of focus,

so some of the detail isn't very sharp. Many of the 60s era UPI prints

are quite a bit sharper than Tink's negative (he has two and it was the

sharper one that he scanned)."

On the Moorman original it's my impression that the original is now very faded and of not much value as far as a new copy/scan. Perhaps Gary can comment.

[Lee Forman]

Mr. Weitzman told Dr. Laburda that he believes positively there were two people shooting. That he saw some men crouching behind some bushes. Now he does not know who it was, but after the shooting the man was not there. I asked him at the time that it could have been somebody from the police and he said it could have been but then he said he found a spent cartridge at that time, and it was from a Mauser rifle 7.65 in that area. I suspect that these things are partly elaboration of somewhat what he had heard, what other people said, and speculation that had been advanced in the last ten years, so I could not say that this was the idea that he had at that time, but he told me that he believed from the beginning that there was more than one person shooting.

Quoted before elsewhere, should probably be repeated here. 'Which bushes' continues to be the question. It also curiously rings a note with Sam Pate's email - "There were several bullets and hulls around the Plaza. Several more than just three."

Waste of time perhaps - this is a comparison using a high res scan from 4 Dark Days [crop on the top]. I think that it is a compelling comparison, even if it isn't conclusive.

Anyone have any ideas on how to acquire a high res scan of the original Moorman polaroid?

- lee

Lee,

Gary Mack sent me this:

"Craig, you should mention that the negative is slightly out of focus,

so some of the detail isn't very sharp. Many of the 60s era UPI prints

are quite a bit sharper than Tink's negative (he has two and it was the

sharper one that he scanned)."

On the Moorman original it's my impression that the original is now very faded and of not much value as far as a new copy/scan. Perhaps Gary can comment.

Thanks for that Craig. It's like a vicious cycle. Can't seem to find my way out of it. I will ask Mark Oakes about a copy I have seen for sale that apparently came from his collection. I bought an alleged 'high quality print' from eBay for $85 once - I could have done better myself using an internet acquired version and a dot matrix printer.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

The area marked blurred is the fedora of the man Hoffman saw. Ed confirmed this for me. The wind was moving from the northwest, thus the light area marked smoke is on the wrong side of Hat Man for that alleged smoke to be accurate. Instead it appears to be the high Dallas sky seen across the RR yard.

Bill

Hoffman never said anything about a 'fedora' that I am aware of.

In his account of watching the events behind the Stockade Fence, Hoffman discusses the characters "businessman" and "train man." "Businessman" is described as "neatly attired in a dark business suit, complete with white shirt, necktie, and short-brimmed black hat." "Train man" is described as wearing "striped overalls and a cap andlooked to be a railroad worker going about his duties.

His 'short brimmed black hat, seen from the rear, would do nicely for a DPD hat.

What did Ed confirm? If it is the location, then I am within inches of the same location.

If the shot was taken moments before the shutter in the polaroid closed, this would be smoke being forcefully ejected from the rifle itself - but I would require a ruling on that from an expert.

The attached represents an overlay at 50% - Jack White's rendering of the crop, with mine layered in beneath - I increased the saturation to pull out Jack's lines. Worth noting is that he has the area of your 'fedora' as a man's arm. He also identifies smoke where in the same location. The inset is taken from a still that was on the History Channel. I have attempted to validate this man's position in every high quality Moorman I have come across - including book and magazine scans, DVD rips, email attachments, etc.

Do you have a suggestion for resolution?

In the meantime - I will see if I can circle back around with Ed Hoffman.

- lee

[Bill Miller]

Hoffman never said anything about a 'fedora' that I am aware of.

In Ed's "TMWKK" inmterview he took BOTH hands and demonstrated how the guy adjusted the brem of his hat. Hat's with a brim all the way around them were fedoras. I showed Ed the fedora and asked him if that was the guy he had seen and the type of hat he had wore and he pointed to it and shook his head "YES". Ed is only deaf - not stupid. Ed knows the difference between a policemans hat and a fedora.

His 'short brimmed black hat, seen from the rear, would do nicely for a DPD hat.

Ed saw the man from the rear - the side - and the front as the guy walkewd to the steam pipe.

What did Ed confirm? If it is the location, then I am within inches of the same location.

You are at the right location in Moorman's photo, but you have people near the Hat Man ... so close that you are claiming they would be seen above the fence line. That is not what Ed described, nor Bowers as to the other man's locatgion. The man in the RR clothes was said to be waiting on the west side of the steam pipe which is about 90 - 100 feet away from Hat Man's location.

If the shot was taken moments before the shutter in the polaroid closed, this would be smoke being forcefully ejected from the rifle itself - but I would require a ruling on that from an expert.

3.6/18s of a second to be exact.

If the shot was taken moments before the shutter in the polaroid closed, this would be smoke being forcefully ejected from the rifle itself - but I would require a ruling on that from an expert.

Who needs an expert to tell them that the smoke would be propelled in the direction of the President when the gun discharged? Please take note where JFK is in Moorman's photo. Draw a line from the Hat to the limo and see what you get. Again, you are seeing the Dallas sky across the RR yard.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Lee Forman]

Hoffman never said anything about a 'fedora' that I am aware of.

In Ed's "TMWKK" inmterview he took BOTH hands and demonstrated how the guy adjusted the brem of his hat. Hat's with brems all the way around them were fedoras. I showed Ed the fedora and asked him if that was the guy he had seen and the type of hat he had wore and he pointed to it and shook his head "YES". Ed is only deaf - not stupid. Ed knows the difference between a policemans hat and a fedora.

His 'short brimmed black hat, seen from the rear, would do nicely for a DPD hat.

Ed saw the man from the rear - the side - and the front as the guy walkewd to the steam pipe.

What did Ed confirm? If it is the location, then I am within inches of the same location.

You are at the right location in Moorman's photo, but you have people near the Hat Man ... so close that you are claiming they would be seen above the fence line. That is not what Ed described, nor Bowers as to the other man's locatgion. The man in the RR clothes was said to be waiting on the west side of the steam pipe which is about 90 - 100 feet away from Hat Man's location.

If the shot was taken moments before the shutter in the polaroid closed, this would be smoke being forcefully ejected from the rifle itself - but I would require a ruling on that from an expert.

3.6/18s of a second to be exact.

If the shot was taken moments before the shutter in the polaroid closed, this would be smoke being forcefully ejected from the rifle itself - but I would require a ruling on that from an expert.

Who needs an expert to tell them that the smoke would be propelled in the direction of the President when the gun discharged? Please take note where JFK is in Moorman's photo. Draw a line from the Hat to the limo and see what you get. Again, you are seeing the Dallas sky across the RR yard.

Let's wait to see if I hear anything back from Ed?

On the smoke - I was assuming that it would be a matter of model and make and where the gas vents were located on the weapon. Maybe Ryan Crowe could tell us something here. I remember we once hashed out reasons for why a weapon would produce such smoke - can't remember what they were.

- lee

BTW - it's 'brim' - and any hat can have a brim all the way around it without making it a fedora.

[Ryan Crowe]

Lee,

Sorry I didnt see this earlier when I was on, been pretty busy..

As for the smoke, imho it came from a oiled rifle barrel, this is done after ones cleans a barrel to keep it from pitting etc. ive seen it hundreds of times, think of a car that is burning oil....Ive actually done this (by mistake) with a M1 Garand, fired two close shots almost in a rapid fire and it looked as if I was shooting black powder...pretty neat at first, until the guy next to me gave me a look of disgust lol..

Hope this helps..

Ryan

[Bill Miller]

Let's wait to see if I hear anything back from Ed?

I had spent a lot of time with Ed a few years back and even had Tony Cummings film my time spent with him and his familiy in the RR yard going over ever detail. Ed is also not in good health, so do not be discouraged if he doesn't get back to right away or if at all.

On the smoke - I was assuming that it would be a matter of model and make and where the gas vents were located on the weapon. Maybe Ryan Crowe could tell us something here. I remember we once hashed out reasons for why a weapon would produce such smoke - can't remember what they were.

You will find that the smoke comes out the end of the barrel and is propelled in the direction the gun is pointed. Depending on which way the air is moving will determine which way the smoke will go after that.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Lee Forman]

Lee,

Sorry I didnt see this earlier when I was on, been pretty busy..

As for the smoke, imho it came from a oiled rifle barrel, this is done after ones cleans a barrel to keep it from pitting etc. ive seen it hundreds of times, think of a car that is burning oil....Ive actually done this (by mistake) with a M1 Garand, fired two close shots almost in a rapid fire and it looked as if I was shooting black powder...pretty neat at first, until the guy next to me gave me a look of disgust lol..

Hope this helps..

Ryan

Thanks Ryan.

Out of curiousity and ignorance - is there a difference in the gas vents, depending upon the weapon? Does an M1 Garand, for example, vent differently than a Belgian FAL, or an MK47, or a Remington Fireball? Would this have an impact on what the smoke would look like within an instant of firing? I tried to find examples on the internet - nothing conclusive - I guess these folks knew not to have an over oiled gun.

- lee

[Ryan Crowe]

Lee,

In gas-operated actions, a small amount of gas is bled off into an auxiliary chamber, where it pushes a piston that creates a force to unlock and open the action. The action is closed and locked by a recoil spring that is compressed during the rearward action. Gas-operating systems can use a long-stroke piston or a short-stroke piston.

The long-stroke design siphons off gas under somewhat low pressure via a port near the muzzle. The operating rod is fastened to the piston stem and extends all the way back to the receiver where it engages the breechblock or bolt. The short-stroke design takes its charge of high-pressure gas by means of a port only inches forward of the chamber. ..The operating rod is not attached to the piston stem, rather, it is mounted just behind it. The piston is driven violently to the rear where it hits the forward end of the operating rod. This blow drives the operating rod to the rear causing the same process of unlocking, extracting, ejecting, cocking, reloading, and locking as occurs in the long-stroke design.

The fireball is a bolt gun, meaning one has to operate the bolt to load another round, it does not rely on gas pressure to operate..

The M1 Garand uses what is called a operating rod , AK-47's is called a gas piston and the FAL's is the same, all work on the same principal...

I dont think one could tell by just seeing the smoke as to what weapons were used, if I recall witness said they had seen smoke in the tree's? please correct me if im wrong.

As for not knowing of having a over oiled gun, there are two sides to that coin, these things happen, especially to rifles that are not used alot, shot every once in a while, cleaned, then placed away until next time..

Also, IMHO a shot from the knoll position, one would not use a scope for this location, your FOV is to small at such a short distance on a moving target from this location, if it were me, I would use open sights for this shot....

Hope this helps.

Ryan

[Lee Forman]

Let's wait to see if I hear anything back from Ed?

I had spent a lot of time with Ed a few years back and even had Tony Cummings film my time spent with him and his familiy in the RR yard going over ever detail. Ed is also not in good health, so do not be discouraged if he doesn't get back to right away or if at all.

On the smoke - I was assuming that it would be a matter of model and make and where the gas vents were located on the weapon. Maybe Ryan Crowe could tell us something here. I remember we once hashed out reasons for why a weapon would produce such smoke - can't remember what they were.

You will find that the smoke comes out the end of the barrel and is propelled in the direction the gun is pointed. Depending on which way the air is moving will determine which way the smoke will go after that.

Hello Bill.

Yes - I learned the same of Ed this evening. It may explain why I have not received a reply sooner. A shame - a real hero. My recent email will hopefully be forwarded and perhaps it will receive a response - as you stated, perhaps not. It must have been a pleasure to have had the opportunity to have made his acquaintance.

On the gun, perhaps Ryan can address it - I do not believe that the smoke comes out of the barrel - it would depend upon the weapon, and perhaps the ammunition used. I fired what I believe was a Karabiner 98k? when I was 10 years old. I don't recall the recoil - what I remember was my Mother's reaction when I came to the house with tiny bleeding holes all over my face. Somehow the rifle forced the gases backwards, and the result was as indicated. Sniper rifle designs were also much different than standard issue military rifles. With the need for accuracy, velocity, long distance and the suppression of sound, some strange designs resulted - not my area of expertise by any means.

http://www.gunsworld.com/mauser/g41_us.html

This rifle, chambered for the standard service cartridge, the 8 x 57, was designed by Mauser, and had a most unique gas system. Rather than the usual gas port in the barrel to bleed off gas to function the weapon, the G41 uses gas after it has left the muzzle. When the projectile leaves the muzzle, it passes through a muzzle cone which traps the following gas. This cone deflects the gas to the rear where it acts on a floating piston which sits around the barrel. The piston then pushes a top mounted operating rod rearward, about 30m/m, to drive back the action slide. The bolt is front locking with two pivoting locking lugs that lock into recesses in the receivers As the slide is driven rearward, a projection on its bottom cams the locking lugs forward, unlocking the bolt and allowing a normal reloading cycle to take place.

G41 Muzzel Gas Assembly

When the bolt assembly comes forward again, the locking lugs swing back outward into the receiver locking recesses, creating a very strong action.

This method of trapping gas outside the muzzle was used in several early auto loading firearms. The first experimental semi-auto rifle designed by John Browning used this system.

When the Garand was adopted by the US Army in 1936 It also operated this way. It had no gas port, but the cylinder assembly extended over the front of the muzzle, just like the G41, with a slot to direct the gas down into the gas cylinder. This method was found unsatisfactory, and in 1939 the Garand was modified with a new piston assembly having a gas port near the muzzle.

The gas system on the G41 was found to be not suitable for service use. It was very prone to excessive powder fouling and required frequent cleaning, and from a reliability point of view much inferior to the M40 Tokarev. The G41 was very heavy and expensive to manufacture. All action components other than the trigger guard assembly are made from extensively machined forgings. The 10 round magazine is not detachable.

PRecognising these deficiencies the German army adopted a modified rifle in 1943, which because the G43.

The G43 has a similar bolt mechanism to the G41, but with a much improved gas system based on the Russian Tokarev. In the G43 a gas port halfway down the barrel bleeds gas to a top mounted gas cylinder to function a short stroke operating rod.

Again - just speculation. I can't help but wonder if the man at the pick-up isn't the man in the white shirt seen by Bowers behind the fence, and if the man standing next to him isn't the young man with the tasseled hat seen by Mercer. And the reason I post it is for another reason - since I was able to acquire an 8x10 print made in 1963, and scan it at high res, it became obvious perhaps for the first time that there were three people at the pick-up truck. Same applies, IMO, to what we are doing here - older thinking should be receptive to new ideas, particularly when innovative and new technology and techniques are used. In the case of the Moorman photo - the image provided by Lamson, IMO, as far superior to anything I have ever seen. And I believe it requires further study and consideration.

Aside -

$1,000.00 to anyone that is willing to ANONYMOUSLY provide me with a previously unpublished photo, or unaltered photo of the operation. I can send it by wire, bank check, PayPal, etc. I guarantee anonymity - I only desire to post it here. email me at lforman23@comcast.net if you are interested.

- lee

[Bill Miller]

On the gun, perhaps Ryan can address it - I do not believe that the smoke comes out of the barrel

There is some HSCA footage out there somewhere that you can view and see where the smoke came out of the gun they used. I am certain that Gary Mack could supply you with the source for that occurence.

Again - just speculation. I can't help but wonder if the man at the pick-up isn't the man in the white shirt seen by Bowers behind the fence,

I am fairly certain the the man behind the pickup truck is the same man who only moments earlier was seen on the Zfilm heading that way. I think he circled around the truck and watched the scene from there.

[Lee Forman]

There is some HSCA footage out there somewhere that you can view and see where the smoke came out of the gun they used. I am certain that Gary Mack could supply you with the source for that occurence.

I would be interested in seeing it - however, I am highly dubious of their selection of weapon used for demonstration purposes. Again, as per the Hemminger letter, and other reasons, I like a 30.06 caliber round from this location. That could mean a variety of different weapons. You can still find those pins...

Again - just speculation. I can't help but wonder if the man at the pick-up isn't the man in the white shirt seen by Bowers behind the fence,

I am fairly certain the the man behind the pickup truck is the same man who only moments earlier was seen on the Zfilm heading that way. I think he circled around the truck and watched the scene from there.

Bill - I have to disagree again. If you increase the saturation on the frame, it's clear that this shirt is not white. Even if you don't fool with the saturation at all, it's still a grey-bluish colored shirt. The samples in the sprocket area were taken from different frames. The inset from the Cancellare. Even if the Cancellare is a B&W, I think it's fairly clear that this is a white shirt? Another item is that this man at the pick-up appears a bit more heavy-set. Also, from following the frames this man doesn't appear to be running in the direction of the pick-up at all. This man could be one of the individuals photographed in the vehicles further up the street beyond the pick-up, for example, or not. But I don't see how he could be the man standing behind the pick-up.

Anyway - it was sheer speculation on my part, and probably not worth posting.

- lee

[Bill Miller]

Bill - I have to disagree again. If you increase the saturation on the frame, it's clear that this shirt is not white. Even if you don't fool with the saturation at all, it's still a grey-bluish colored shirt. The samples in the sprocket area were taken from different frames.

Just so you are aware .. the bluish gray tint is because in the Zfilm the subjects coat is seen on the side away from the sun and the Zfilm is much darker that the latter photograph. Also, colors such as tan, yellow, light blue, light green, light blish gray, and white will all look the same on a B&W photo. Did not Jackie's hot pink suit look to be the same color as the white concrete wall in Moorman's photograph? Is not the white sign on the pole the same bluish color in the Zfilm as the man's shirt/jacket ... of course they are.

Just wanted to give you more to think about.

Bill

Edited May 24, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Lee Forman]

Bill - I have to disagree again. If you increase the saturation on the frame, it's clear that this shirt is not white. Even if you don't fool with the saturation at all, it's still a grey-bluish colored shirt. The samples in the sprocket area were taken from different frames.

Just so you are aware .. the bluish gray tint is because in the Zfilm the subjects coat is seen on the side away from the sun and the Zfilm is much darker that the latter photograph. Also, colors such as tan, yellow, light blue, light green, light blish gray, and white will all look the same on a B&W photo. Did not Jackie's hot pink suit look to be the same color as the white concrete wall in Moorman's photograph? Is not the white sign on the pole the same bluish color in the Zfilm as the man's shirt/jacket ... of course they are.

Just wanted to give you more to think about.

Bill

Here's a blow-up comparison taken from a frame 410 - street sign, man, American flag. The red seems to bleed a bit. I get your point - but the shirt looks blue to me.

Thanks for bringing it up however. It may lead to something...

- lee

[Bill Miller]

I get your point - but the shirt looks blue to me.

And so did Hudson's white cap when Zapruder filmed it from behind.