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John Simkin

The Yankee and Cowboy War: Debate

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Two coups in one day for John Simkin. Mr. Ogleby's arrival on the forum is very welcome indeed. It is only right and proper that he joined on the Fourth of July.
Carl...on the recommendation of Mary Ferrell, I purchased and read your fantastic book when it first appeared. It changed my entire way of thinking about the JFK assassination.

Before reading the YACW, I thought of the assassination as being THE GOOD GUYS VS THE BAD GUYS. You opened my eyes to the fact that the struggle is BETWEEN THE BAD GUYS AND OTHER BAD GUYS. The only good guys are us, the public, who are the victims of their warfare.

It is clear in recent years, some Yankees have become pseudo-Cowboys by establishing Texas roots...but their Yale elitism still rules. Both the Yankees, Cowboys and Pseudo-Cowboys are all still BAD GUYS.

Thanks for your posting. You are one of my heros.

I must say Mr. Oglesby, that your presentation ranks as one of the most succinct analysis on the history of America's political landscape I have ever read, and is a refreshing difference from the divisive and confrontation oriented polemics which appear in one form or another, in virtually the entire medium of televised news. It is my perception, that the current epoch in American politics has become so blatantly corrupt that it's only precedent would be the era historically chronicled in the Warren Harding/Herbert Hoover Era.

The comparison is offered by the dynamics of a compromised media, and wholesale scandal on the part of the current Republican Administration, although I certainly feel that the Democratic Party is not exactly a paragon of virtue either; in fact, the current situation with regards to the geopolitical factors, has been viewed by such figures as the late Pope John Paul II, as a crisis of the moral order, which he categorized as 'moral relativism.' I also fear personally that the right-wing in American politics has throttled 'religion' as an issue [wading into the waters of separation of church and state] to the point, that secular culture, to some degree regards the same as perhaps part of the problem, instead of offering hope to many American's who are discouraged by the current situation.

While the Era of the Teapot Dome Scandal is a historical reality, the current imbroglio is in the present, and subsequently, the final resolution is somewhat, up in the air.

Additionally, the Era of Teapot Dome was significantly less threatening, in the fact that, that era of American politic's did not feature the erosion of constitutional governance, as currently witnessed by virtue of the use or abuse of Executive Order's, a relatively new [historically speaking] phenomena, nor the fact that American foreign policy in that era was, more enshrined in an isolationist foreign policy, which died more or less, after 1945.

I am very glad that you have joined the Forum and look forward to your posts.

Another voice, here, of welcome to the Forum and of thanks for the analysis supplied above and in your most interesting and important book TYACW! I read it long ago and as with Jack, it started me on a new path of analysis which I think is worthy of exploration. For all too many citizens the mysteries of 'random events' in the political history are just that - mysteries and isolated and without context - one at which they are only spectators of some struggle under the surface of powerful forces and persons. As you say, it is time we the people take control again before we loose it once and for all. I was wondering if your analysis can be applied to new forms of 'frontiers' - such as outerspace domination (star wars type programs), conquest of 'our oil under their soil' frontiers, nuclear weapon frontiers, other weapon frontiers, etc. Welcome, Welcome. Welcome, the level of conversation will definitey take a turn for the better if you stick around. Peter
"But these two events represent neither isolated disasters nor a generalized failure of American institutions but something almost beyond the ability of ordinary people even to see, much less control. The two events - Dallas and Watergate - are actually concrete links in a chain of related and ominous events passing through the entire decade in which they occurred and beyond. And this chain of events itself represents only the violent eruptions of a deeper struggle of rival power elites identified here as Yankees and Cowboys."

America is an IDEA. It's a mythical solution to those who live outside of the United States of America. Perhaps this is easier understood by the very millions of 'Americans' who have never been USA citizens. (Ho Chi Minh for example, a great admirer of the US constitution whose overtures to the US were rebuffed early on) The USA still contains frontiers. I don't think the physical frontier is gone, Rather, it's locked up in regulations. That can change, so 'easy riders' take heart.

There are other frontiers. These have been deeply penetrated by much older nations in the mists of written history. The mind and Buddha, the spirit and Christ for example. Keourac, Cassady, Ram Das, Janov, and many others have wandered these paths and rediscovered some of these things and put them in a modern context. This work continues today.

It's the loss oif spirit that would cement the Cowboy-Yankee conflict into a fully dominant theme. The assassination of Kennedy was a retaking of this frontier by those who felt their control slipping. Subsequent strife and assassinations were in a sense a theatrical production that left the observer with little doubt about his/her role.

This forum for example demonstrates that this spirit is not dead. I don't know what it would take for the Americans who happen to be living in the northern half of the American continent to continue the march westwards. I think a spirit of unity and caring, within a philosophy of the global yankee like Kennedy, is integral. At the moment I see the USA ruled by pirates with little regard for good. The more civilized world is probably more concerned about the morals of those who wield the weapons of these modern day pirates. The boarding party has been replaced by indoctrinated, compromised, sometimes by drugs, button pushing techno warriors so separated by dogma from their true selves that swatting a bunch of arab villagers with smart bombs means nothing anymore....Except it does, it's the sort of behaviour that ultimately carries the seed of its own destruction. When, not if, that happens. I think the country capable of the best and the worst, the USA, will find that true friends is a good thing.

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Sorry for the confusion everyone. Carl is not online, but I have called him and read all these great posts. I

am also printing off same to send by snail mail. Should anyone have a question for Carl I will print off same and do both call and mail to him.

Harvey (Yazijian) and I are trying to get him online but he's afraid he'd never get any work done.

(I can hardly argue with that objection!!) :)

Should anyone have a question they would like to ask privately of Carl please feel free to Pm me and I will call Carl with it and respond as quickly as I am able.

Carl has been working on an SDS book for the past several years and is in the process of finishing same for Cornell, who is going to publish it.

Hopefully then Harv and I will be successful in our efforts to get him on the net and he can participate here w/o an intermediary.

I am just so happy to see his book being scanned here. For all to read. (Jack White, I tried to PM you, re this, but your box is full) . Thus this post.

Dawn

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I am just so happy to see his book being scanned here. For all to read. (Jack White, I tried to PM you, re this, but your box is full) . Thus this post.

Dawn

Dawn...I NEVER utilize the forum mailbox. Anyone who wishes

to email me may do so at jwjfk@flash.net

Anyone who emails me c/o the forum is wasting their time.

Jack

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I wonder if Carl or anybody else has any thoughts on the Bush family as a sort of synthesis of the Yankees and Cowboys, the product of a truce of sorts. The family hails from Connecticut, with granddad Prescott more Yankee than Cowboy. But George Sr. branched out to Texas and the oil business, while being deeply connected to CIA which has been traditionally more on the Yankee side. George Jr. seems to be more Cowboy than Yankee, which is indicative of the tip in the balance of power in this conflict.

Rex Bradford

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I wonder if Carl or anybody else has any thoughts on the Bush family as a sort of synthesis of the Yankees and Cowboys, the product of a truce of sorts. The family hails from Connecticut, with granddad Prescott more Yankee than Cowboy. But George Sr. branched out to Texas and the oil business, while being deeply connected to CIA which has been traditionally more on the Yankee side. George Jr. seems to be more Cowboy than Yankee, which is indicative of the tip in the balance of power in this conflict.

I have raised this issue here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7294

On the surface, the last six years has suggested the dominance of the Cowboys. It is clearly no coincidence that a Texas based company, Halliburton, has done extremely well out of Bush’s aggressive foreign policy. However, like presidents before him, has not Bush been forced to provide lucrative military contracts to the Yankees?

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[quote name='Rex Bradford' date='Jul 7 2006, 06:12 PM' post='67537']

I wonder if Carl or anybody else has any thoughts on the Bush family as a sort of synthesis of the Yankees and Cowboys, the product of a truce of sorts. The family hails from Connecticut, with granddad Prescott more Yankee than Cowboy. But George Sr. branched out to Texas and the oil business, while being deeply connected to CIA which has been traditionally more on the Yankee side. George Jr. seems to be more Cowboy than Yankee, which is indicative of the tip in the balance of power in this conflict.

Rex Bradford

Rex:

Carl's answer on the phone Sunday was actually a mini speech, so I cannot transcribe it. I will re-ask the question and try to get him to limit his response. I have also mailed him this stuff, snail mail.

He has also asked that I give out his tel no. to anyone with questions or would just like to say hello.

In fact I should probably just post it because as he said "I am in the damn phone book if anyone wants to call me". (I took that as a hint that he'd appreciate a call!! <_<.)

He is a public person since the Viet Nam war invaded his private life in 1965.

Can be reached at 413-253-7410.

(And if the NSA is still listening he and I just laugh at them> Must be a terribly boring job, so we provide a bit of humor just for them :)

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[quote name='Rex Bradford' date='Jul 7 2006, 06:12 PM' post='67537']

I wonder if Carl or anybody else has any thoughts on the Bush family as a sort of synthesis of the Yankees and Cowboys, the product of a truce of sorts. The family hails from Connecticut, with granddad Prescott more Yankee than Cowboy. But George Sr. branched out to Texas and the oil business, while being deeply connected to CIA which has been traditionally more on the Yankee side. George Jr. seems to be more Cowboy than Yankee, which is indicative of the tip in the balance of power in this conflict.

Rex Bradford

Rex:

Carl's answer on the phone Sunday was actually a mini speech, so I cannot transcribe it. I will re-ask the question and try to get him to limit his response. I have also mailed him this stuff, snail mail.

He has also asked that I give out his tel no. to anyone with questions or would just like to say hello.

In fact I should probably just post it because as he said "I am in the damn phone book if anyone wants to call me". (I took that as a hint that he'd appreciate a call!! :).)

He is a public person since the Viet Nam war invaded his private life in 1965.

Can be reached at 413-253-7410.

(And if the NSA is still listening he and I just laugh at them> Must be a terribly boring job, so we provide a bit of humor just for them :)

***********************************************************

Hey, if someone would send me a copy of this book, I'll guarantee to put up a chapter every weekend until it's completely entered into the database. This is taking too long, already!

Ter

Edited by Terry Mauro

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Geez this book is SO expensive!

I know, it's a scarce resource.

Just had to grumble; I'm looking for a copy to buy and got a severe case of sticker shock.

Wow.

But from what I hear it's a must have.

I'm most compelled by the concept that it's not a matter of good vs evil as much as evil vs evil.

Or so I understand it advances that premise.

Anyway, I've checked all the usual suspects (Abes, Half, Ebay, Amazon, Powell,...) and can't find a cheap copy.

Lookin' to buy, not borrow, if anyone has a hot tip on a cheap copy.

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Myra,

You're well advised to pay a hefty premium for a paperback edition (the hc is commonly offered for 2-3 times the cost of the pb).

I know of no more succinct and encompassing description of the bad v. worse guys who haunt our lives than Oglesby's title. You've inspired me to reread TYCW, which I last reviewed more than 10 years ago.

The Bush family as connective tissue between the factions? It's a concept that has been discussed -- at least privately -- for a while, and I think we should devote a new thread to it.

Of course the Rockefeller family also connects the two worlds.

Off to what in RI is referred to as the "lie-berry."

Charles

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Myra,

You're well advised to pay a hefty premium for a paperback edition (the hc is commonly offered for 2-3 times the cost of the pb).

I know of no more succinct and encompassing description of the bad v. worse guys who haunt our lives than Oglesby's title. You've inspired me to reread TYCW, which I last reviewed more than 10 years ago.

The Bush family as connective tissue between the factions? It's a concept that has been discussed -- at least privately -- for a while, and I think we should devote a new thread to it.

Of course the Rockefeller family also connects the two worlds.

Off to what in RI is referred to as the "lie-berry."

Charles

Thanks for the nudge on TYCW Charles.

Regarding the Rockefeller family, one difference between them and the Bush Effin' Crime Family is that (IMO) the Rockefeller family is harder to trace. Nelson's Willey Coyote-esque attempts to nab the oval office for his own notwithstanding, their fingerprints aren't as easy to see as the Bush family's oily prints.

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The Yankee and Cowboy War is a seminal book -- and beautifully written. A pleasure to re-read across the years.

I worked for years with a photocopy of it -- because the few available books were so expensive.

Then, lo, about 18 months ago, it seems a rumor circled that Y-C would be reprinted, and the old used copies dropped in value and I got one for $10. A prize.

Did you see this interview with Mr O last year:

http://newcombat.net/Conversation/2008/04/...-hot-off-press/

Hats off to him. A patriot who thinks and writes wonderfully about our careering world.

PS: I posted something of substance re Yankee-Cowboy at the other thread John Simkin notes above:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;#entry162640

Edited by William Ney

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