Wim Dankbaar Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 (edited) http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/NSA.htm Who of the researchers here has ever seen these documents? Was it a mistake to declassify them? Or are they just fake? In both cases they don't seem to be very known among researchers. I would expect they were. Anyone who can shed a light? Wim PS: And why are a lot of names still redacted? Edited May 12, 2004 by dankbaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 William, just to make sure I understand, the header on your site above the documents seems to me to say that someone send Files the original letters (one to someone in Wy and a reply to someone in Fla) along with the official memos essentially showing the NSA bringing a mail intercept of these letters inside the U.S. to the attention of the FBI so that they could bring it to the attention of a JFK investigation (from the date, apparently the HSCA). Am I reading the header correctly? Are you able to state when Files received all the items including the confidential memos and were they from a Goverment agency or an anonymous source? Have you been able to verify the documents are held by NARA or were ever turned over to the HSCA or more recently to NARA via the ARRB - or does it appear someone essentially lifted the documents from FBI and NSA files and just sent them to Files? Before commenting on the documents themselves - which certainly don't seem to have been investigated by HSCA or brought to their attention - it would help to understand how Files received them (not only the letters but classified documents about them which seem to reveal a possibly illegal mail intercept program by NSA among other things). -- thanks, Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 (edited) William, just to make sure I understand, the header on your site above the documents seems to me to say that someone send Files the original letters (one to someone in Wy and a reply to someone in Fla) along with the official memos essentially showing the NSA bringing a mail intercept of these letters inside the U.S. to the attention of the FBI so that they could bring it to the attention of a JFK investigation (from the date, apparently the HSCA). Am I reading the header correctly? Hi Larry, I need to get your book, I guess. Is it available in Europe or do I have to go thru Amazon.com? NO, I don't think you read the header correctly. Someone (and I don't know who and I haven't asked yet) mailed the entire set of ducuments that you see on that webpage to James Files in prison with the question if he was the author of the letter. I doubt if Files got the originals, I don't think so, he must have received copies I guess. I'm not sure how you conclude they were also sent to someone in Wy? Are you able to state when Files received all the items including the confidential memos and were they from a Goverment agency or an anonymous source? Have you been able to verify the documents are held by NARA or were ever turned over to the HSCA or more recently to NARA via the ARRB - or does it appear someone essentially lifted the documents from FBI and NSA files and just sent them to Files? Well, as I understand, these memos are not confidential any longer. They have been declasssiified, as you can see by the stripes thru the words 'confidential." As to the date that they were declassified and/or Files received them I can only give you Files' own words at this time: "just declassified about a year ago from the NSA". He wrote this in 1999. See page three of his letter here: http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/letters.htm Before commenting on the documents themselves - which certainly don't seem to have been investigated by HSCA or brought to their attention - it would help to understand how Files received them (not only the letters but classified documents about them which seem to reveal a possibly illegal mail intercept program by NSA among other things). I can ask how he received them, but I'm not sure if he will answer it. He is pretty sensitive about his sources and lately he is simply fed-up with wise guys doubting his story, and he doesn't seem to care either, which doesn't make my job any easier by the way. Wim -- thanks, Larry Edited May 12, 2004 by dankbaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 PS: The third document on that webpage shows a cover letter signed by Daniel B. Silver. A quick Google search reveals that Mr. Silver is now a senior partner in a Washington lawfirm and was indeed the General Counsel of the NSA in 1978. Yesterday I left a message for Mr. Silver who was so nice to respond to me by email just a few minutes ago, that he has absolutely no recollection of the document and that, as a matter of protocol, he was often required to sign such transmittal letters, prepared by his lawyers. Wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 (edited) By the way Larry. Half of the time I cannot access the lancer forum (website goes fine, just the forum). This is probably a typical "dutch" problem, because I know that other people can access it when I cannot, I receive the emails from subscribed threats. Any ideas? Like right now I get this: Warning: main(dcsetup.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 33 Warning: main(): Failed opening 'dcsetup.php' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php') in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 33 Warning: main(INCLUDE_DIR/dclib.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 38 Warning: main(): Failed opening 'INCLUDE_DIR/dclib.php' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php') in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 38 Warning: main(INCLUDE_DIR/dcinit.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 39 Warning: main(): Failed opening 'INCLUDE_DIR/dcinit.php' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php') in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 39 Warning: main(INCLUDE_DIR/dchtmllib.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 40 Warning: main(): Failed opening 'INCLUDE_DIR/dchtmllib.php' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php') in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 40 Warning: main(INCLUDE_DIR/dcfilterlib.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 41 Warning: main(): Failed opening 'INCLUDE_DIR/dcfilterlib.php' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php') in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 41 Warning: main(INCLUDE_DIR/mysqldb.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 42 Warning: main(): Failed opening 'INCLUDE_DIR/mysqldb.php' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php') in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 42 Fatal error: Call to undefined function: db_connect() in /home/d2654c/public_html/dc/dcboard.php on line 45 Edited May 12, 2004 by dankbaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Hi William, first, sorry for the confusion, I was not referring to originals but rather the fact that the copies included copies of the original letter pages not just memoranda about them. The reference to Wyoming is because the first page of the letter appears to have an inside address to a VA hospital in Wyoming even though the second page refers to the recepient being in Florida? As to the classification, I see the strike outs but I don't see any sign of either the standard classification/declassification block which removes a classification nor of any release stamp which designates when and who released the document from a file. The "letter" refers to the incident no longer being classified but in regards to the official memos and letter the NSA counsel cautioning that distribution and handling be restricted to personnel carrying appropriate security classifications. If this document was sent directly from someone to files it would be very good to know if it actually is released or declassifed as files says because otherwise it could still be classified and legallay actionable. I will have to read this through several times before I could be comfortable in commenting on it but I very much doubt that it is in the HSCA collection; it could be in NSA documents released to NARA due to the action of the ARRB and that would make sense of the 1999 date - and you should be able to verify that through the archives. I'm a little skeptical that NSA counsel could have written and signed a letter in 1978 during the HSCA investigation on this explosive subject and not remember it at all - I've seen one letter written from Justice and one from the IRS in the same period, both bringing serious information to the HSCA and you can tell those Agencies took it seriously. I would expect NSA would have as well (and actually they should have written Justice not FBI I think but that's another story). I was amazed to see a detailed acknowledgement about NSA monitoring activities overseas including actual comm links, I can't belive that was routine NSA correspondance - hard enough to get them to talk about such things under legally binding orders. I think a key to this will be determing if this was really part of a NSA release to NARA based on the ARRB; if that is confirmed then this gets really interesting. Although since the letter and documents seem to refer to Security Service perssonnel, most likey Air Force stationed in Scotland I'm not sure why anybody would have seriously thought Files was the writer? Oh, on my book, I'm afraid Amazon would indeed be your option - on the Lancer site, I really don't have any operational involvement in that although occasionally I try to answer questions Debra sends my way. I'm having the same problem this morning that you see and can't do much other than drop Debra a note or call her. It may be back up now, hope so. -- Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 (edited) I will have to read this through several times before I could be comfortable in commenting on it but I very much doubt that it is in the HSCA collection; it could be in NSA documents released to NARA due to the action of the ARRB and that would make sense of the 1999 date - and you should be able to verify that through the archives. I doubt with you that it will be in the HSCA collection. If this is a genuine document (and I don't see why not, unless it was designed to fool Files) it was sent to the FBI. I have yet to discover anything from them to help the investigation. Unless we're talking about retired agents. Wim Edited May 12, 2004 by dankbaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 (edited) "I'm a little skeptical that NSA counsel could have written and signed a letter in 1978 during the HSCA investigation on this explosive subject and not remember it at all -" Can't blame you! I felt the same. I just tried to find on Google if there was a NSA monitoring station in Kirknewton, Scotland. It turns out there was. Numerous links on this search: http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=%2Bkir...land+%2BNSA&lr= http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/d.f.j.wood/thesis_files/5-6.pdf ... telecommunications monitoring station at Kirknewton in Scotland were officially closed and all tasks transferred to the National Security Agency (NSA) to be ... http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/s_ech03.htm Thus, in 1965, while intercept operators at the NSA's Chicksands station in England focussed on the radio messages of Warsaw Pact air forces, their colleagues 200 kilometres north at Kirknewton, Scotland were covering "ILC" traffic, including commercially run radio links between major European cities. These networks could carry anything from birthday telegrams to detailed economic or commercial information exchanged by companies, to encrypted diplomatic messages. In the intercept rooms, machines tuned to transmission channels continuously spewed out 8-ply paper to be read and marked up by intelligence analysts Edited May 12, 2004 by dankbaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 William, I am attempting to determine something about the NSA documents you have posted. To date the results are minimal but I can confirm that they would be consistent with a box of NSA files released in 1998 to NARA due to the work of the ARRB. Two problems, first I have a friend who went through that whole release and certainly would have been struck by such documents, he recalls nothing like these. Second these do not have the declassification and release stamps that should be routinely found on such documents. If they truly released NSA documents they should be found at NARA and I encourage serious researchers to try and locate them, I'll do what I can. There are still a host of "missing" NSA documents, some still classified from the WC period, many still classified from the Church committee and some - primarily interviews with Watch list personnel - just flat missing. Without doubt the most sensitive (and missing) ones seem to have to do with possible monitoring of Oswald's calls from Russia. Everyone should be on the lookout for this stuff - one reason for keeping it off the record is clear - if NSA was monitoring Oswald overseas it would have been really hard to explain the lack of any interview or official contact after his return. Anyway these particular documents deserve some real work and I will post anything I find, would love to hear more about them. Knowing exactly when Files received them and how he knew they were declassified would be of real help. -- Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted May 14, 2004 Author Share Posted May 14, 2004 (edited) Well.. I've lost your email address. Can you send me an email at info@jfkmurdersolved.com? Edited May 14, 2004 by dankbaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 It's a busy day but these documents are looking more and more valid and internally they seem to be very consistent. It's totally understandable that an AF MSGT would turn over any such letter to OSI and that OSI would investigate. That file would be really interesting. And as William pointed out it looks like somebody at Kirknewton could indeed have pulled up a commercial link and hit a name on a Watch List, the Watch Lists are key, we know they included lists targeted US citizens as well as others and major crime figures could indeed have been on the list. Interestingly it sounds from the letter like the writers military supervisor did not allow that particular intercept to be reported up to NSA or perhaps just not highlighted in the routine message traffic. Which means NSA may never have had a record. Of course the ex-serviceman in Wyoming clearly was trying to scam some disability to a certain extent, how reliable was he? Hard to say, if only we could get unredacted copies of those documents or somebody could try a little graphic work on the mark outs to see if anything is legible. In any event, this one is certainly new and pretty interesting at this point..thanks William. -- Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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