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Thomas H. Purvis

Survey: Where to look?

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http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464a.htm

Here, one will reportedly find a copy of Mr. West Survey Plat for the WC re-enactment.

Not likely that anyone can make much of this, which of course is a portion of the intent.

Little would one know that alteration to the survey data block had occurred, even when looking at the WC version of this document.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464b.htm

Unless of course they had a little drafting experience/aka "leroy set" time on their hands and recognized as I did that there was something slightly amiss with a few of the numbers.

As a few additional notes:

1. The first line drawn from the sixth floor window of the TSDB down to the street has nothing to do with any shots.

It is drawn to the hypothetical position "A" as discussed by Shaneyfelt & Frazier in their testimony as regards the WC assassination re-enactment.

2. There is only one single trajectory drawn in. That being the headshot at Z313.

3. As previously stated, the WC did no survey work down Elm St. past the Z313 headshot. This shot was relatively accurately placed, with a "rifle to Kennedy" distance of 265.3 feet, which compensated for the height of JFK above the pavement of Elm St.

4. Previous survey work for the US Secret Service had placed this distance at 267 feet, as the SS did not have Mr. West add in the correction factor for the height of JFK above the pavement, and their work was to the point on the street at which JFK was located at the time/impact of the shot.

And although I possess Mr. West's survey notes for each of those positions surveyed by the WC, his typwritten listing of frames surveyed is considerably more encompassing as one can see the Position "A" as well as compare this entire listing with the altered survey data block which Arlen Specter and his "slight" sleight-of-hand technique of admitting evidence pulled off.

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A most critical item of evidence in regards to survey work in Dealy Plaza prior to the WC, as well as exactly why the Edgewood Arsenal Master Marksmen had such difficulty in achieving the three hits with the Carcano.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

And, one truly should read up on THE SHOT THAT MISSED, if they are to understand the often "circular" reasoning of the WC and how it went out of it's way to confuse the issue.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...eport_0068a.htm

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A most critical item of evidence in regards to survey work in Dealy Plaza prior to the WC, as well as exactly why the Edgewood Arsenal Master Marksmen had such difficulty in achieving the three hits with the Carcano.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

And, one truly should read up on THE SHOT THAT MISSED, if they are to understand the often "circular" reasoning of the WC and how it went out of it's way to confuse the issue.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...eport_0068a.htm

The "Eisenberg" drawing provides answers to a variety of questions related to the assassination, in that:

1. The date of this drawing is 3/27/64. Therefore, the distances, elevations, etc; could not have been from the WC survey and re-enactment of May 1964.

(actually, this information is from the FBI re-enactment of February 1964, which was merely a revision to the SS Survey plat of 12/05/63.)

2. This information continues to demonstrate the "First Shot" impact point at elevation "423" (423.07) which happens to be the elevation on Elm St. for the position of JFK at the impact of the first shot, as determined by the US Secret Service on 12/05/63, and repeated in the FBI survey and re-enactment work of 02/07/64.

3. Street elevation of 418 is given for the THIRD shot on this revised shot sequencing, which is of course the location and elevation (418.48) for the position of JFK at the time of the Z313 shot.

Therefore, quite unlike the complex testimony as regards the "how" the WC located JFK's position on Elm St.,

this position already existed, marked with a nail in the Street, as done by Mr. West long before the WC came down the pike with their sack full of obfuscation.

4. The location/impact point for the "Second" shot has for some reason not been presented on Mr. Eisenberg's drawing. Even though the FBI Survey plat (revised SS Survey) of February 1964, had conveniently eliminated the position of the actual third shot* down in front of Mr. Altgens, effectively made Z313 the third/last shot, and moved a shot impact point in between the two positions as shown in Mr. Eisenberg's drawing.

5. The Eisenberg drawing provides additional information relative to "Time of Flight" information in which Mr. Eisenberg even made a graph.

This information becomes an EEI (essential element of information) when one takes into consideration that Impact point as seen in the Z-film IS NOT exact firing time for the rifle.

And, although the elapsed time of flight/Z-frame exposure time is small, it nevertheless provides additional information necessary when one is attempting to correlate such items as reactions of persons to the noise/sound of the shot as well as the "jiggle analysis" and the speed of the sound of the shot reaching the position of Mr. Zapruder.

6. Mr. Eisenberg essentially tells us of the unliklihood that any of the Z-frames from approximately Z210/212 to the head shot at Z313 are missing.

In his calculations for vehicle speed, Mr. Eisenberg gives us the "5.5" seconds of elapsed time between the two referenced points (90 feet), with a vehicle speed of 16.3 feet per second (11.11 mph)*

* Actually, Mr. Eisenberg did not carry this to the exact accuracy which would be 16.363636 feet per second, or 11.15 mph average speed.

Nevertheless, the Eisenberg "5.5" seconds provides us with the information that as early as March 1964, the number of frames of the Z-film exposed between impact point for the first shot and impact point for the Z313 shot was approximately 5.5 seconds of elapsed frames. (100.65 elapsed frames of the film).

This information serves to not only indicate the relative intact number of frames of the Z-film which we now see between these two points, but also serves to indicate that the WC was completely knowledgeable of the number of frames per second of exposure which the Z-film operated at, as well as the potential problem that this information created when one took the information and compared it with the FBI "revised" re-enactment which placed a distance of only 25 feet between impact point for two of the shots fired.

At 16.36 feet per second, this would equate to an elapsed tim of only 1.528 seconds between shots, were the FBI revised survey and survey plat to be accepted as factual.*

*Due to the intentional deletion of this "moved" (by the FBI) impact point, this appears to be the first indicator in which the WC/and/or others were fully aware of the timing problem with the FBI's "moved" impact point for shot#2 which effectively placed it in a point at which the shot could not have come from the TSDB/Carcano due to elapsed frame/weapon operating time.

(This will be further expounded on and examined once we leave the Eisenberg drawing).

Herein lies the basis for the WC's information and knowledge as relates to speed of the vehicle; exposed frames of the Z-film, and why the lies as told to date could not be made to work.

The provided information also provided that data necessary to "shoot down" the data.

Must be time for a "New Lie"/aka the SBT!

Quetions??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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Although previously provided, this "watch us/watch our hand" information may also serve to indicate the various "slight" sleight-of-hand" maneuvers of the WC/aka Specter & Company.

While the world was watching the questioning of the autopsy surgeons, Mr. West was in Dealy Plaza getting the information required to insure that no one could later observe when JFK was hit by the first shot.

Even though:

A. Time/Life appeared to figure it out on 11/26/63

B. The US SS appeared to figure it out on 12/5/63

C. The FBI agreed with the SS on 02/07/64

D. Melvin Eisenberg agreed with "B" & "C" above on 03/27/64.

Then of course, we have to poor ole WC/aka Specter & Company, who with all of the above stated information in their pocket, could not resolve the impact point of the first shot during their May 1964 re-enactment.

Perhaps they should have "axed" Mr. West, as he could have easily pointed to the nail in Elm Street which he had previously installed as the impact position for shot#1.

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As a Professional Land Surveyor with a fascination for the assassination (poetry too?), I am very interested in any and all surveying information relating to Dealy Plaza. I’ve been looking for any survey information I can find, copies of field books, any and all plans of Dealy plaza would be great but I seem to be having trouble locating this information online. I would have thought that it'd be easy but it sure doesn’t seem to be. The plans that Tom linked are nice…but not detailed and apparently have no geometry on them, bearings, distances, arcs, etc. Land Surveying has changed drastically in the past 40 years. Not only in the methods of data collection but in the ability to manipulate the data using CAD software. When I was young and just starting in the profession an old surveyor I knew was convinced that just about any problem could be solved by a good survey. He often said all they really needed to solve the Middle East conflict was an accurate survey. Although I don’t quite go that far, and even he was only half joking, I do believe an updated survey of Dealy Plaza utilizing CAD and modern collection methods is an essential first step to any possible conclusion to the mystery of the assassination. The buildings haven’t changed…yet. The curb and cartway lines (I hope) haven’t changed nor the manholes, sewer inlets and other utilities, for the most part. Using existing plans and field book information gathered during the original surveys in the sixties combined with some minimal field work today one could arrive at a point where they could have a 3 dimensional virtual model of Dealy Plaza. This model would not be a toy or a rough sketch but an exact (within 0.10’ or less) 3-D representation of Dealy Plaza as it is now and, utilizing the old data, as it was in 1963. A signed and sealed Survey and Plan made by a licensed professional is a legal document. With this model one could positively end most trajectory questions, at the least. It could also serve as a scale and a basis for any photogrammetric work that one may want to use for various types of testing and speculation (which might be the most important thing of all). I am not an author or a researcher, I am a Surveyor. Writing is not my forte, that's obvious from the few poorly written posts I have made on the forum. I would love to be able to contribute something to the forum, which has given me hours and hours of pleasurable reading. I believe a digitized accurate land survey done with modern equipment and techniques would great help in solving this thing. If anyone knows of where I can get more survey information on Dealy Plaza, please let me know. Also if anyone has any survey related questions, I would be more then happy to lend my expertise in attempting to help answer them.

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As a Professional Land Surveyor with a fascination for the assassination (poetry too?), I am very interested in any and all surveying information relating to Dealy Plaza. I’ve been looking for any survey information I can find, copies of field books, any and all plans of Dealy plaza would be great but I seem to be having trouble locating this information online. I would have thought that it'd be easy but it sure doesn’t seem to be. The plans that Tom linked are nice…but not detailed and apparently have no geometry on them, bearings, distances, arcs, etc. Land Surveying has changed drastically in the past 40 years. Not only in the methods of data collection but in the ability to manipulate the data using CAD software. When I was young and just starting in the profession an old surveyor I knew was convinced that just about any problem could be solved by a good survey. He often said all they really needed to solve the Middle East conflict was an accurate survey. Although I don’t quite go that far, and even he was only half joking, I do believe an updated survey of Dealy Plaza utilizing CAD and modern collection methods is an essential first step to any possible conclusion to the mystery of the assassination. The buildings haven’t changed…yet. The curb and cartway lines (I hope) haven’t changed nor the manholes, sewer inlets and other utilities, for the most part. Using existing plans and field book information gathered during the original surveys in the sixties combined with some minimal field work today one could arrive at a point where they could have a 3 dimensional virtual model of Dealy Plaza. This model would not be a toy or a rough sketch but an exact (within 0.10’ or less) 3-D representation of Dealy Plaza as it is now and, utilizing the old data, as it was in 1963. A signed and sealed Survey and Plan made by a licensed professional is a legal document. With this model one could positively end most trajectory questions, at the least. It could also serve as a scale and a basis for any photogrammetric work that one may want to use for various types of testing and speculation (which might be the most important thing of all). I am not an author or a researcher, I am a Surveyor. Writing is not my forte, that's obvious from the few poorly written posts I have made on the forum. I would love to be able to contribute something to the forum, which has given me hours and hours of pleasurable reading. I believe a digitized accurate land survey done with modern equipment and techniques would great help in solving this thing. If anyone knows of where I can get more survey information on Dealy Plaza, please let me know. Also if anyone has any survey related questions, I would be more then happy to lend my expertise in attempting to help answer them.

Bob;

Glad to have your comments.

As someone who also attended survey school, this is how I came to know back in 1989 or so that the person responsible for having conducted the survey work in Dealy Plaza for the WC would have his field notes etc.

Ultimately, this lead me to locate Mr. West, through another Land Surveyor also named West (no relationship) who did work for me in Ft. Stockton, Tx.

Ultimately, this contact resulted in the exposure of many unknown items related to prior assassination surveys as well as the field notes etc; from each of the surveys conducted.

Mr. West (Dallas Surveyor) did an excellent job of locating and placement of TBM's and SCP's (temporary bench marks and survey control points).

And, to this day, utilizing his notes, I could easily locate (within a few inches) the impact points which he ultimately surveyed in.

As you have stated, the art is now far advanced with lasers and Global Positioning. But these modern tools are not required for the short distances and angles which Mr. West established throughout Dealy Plaza and in specific the assassination zone.

And, not unlike any good surveyor, when Mr. West established secondary SCP's, he always turned the angle and distances back to the initial point as well as to any other established SCP's.

So, all those who are going to Dallas and "run with the squirrels" on 11/22/06, take your metal detector along as you can rest assured that Mr. West's nails are still driven down into the asphalt of Elm St.

They may have a few more inches of asphalt over them, but one can rest assured that they still remain.

Along with, no doubt, those which he established in other areas.

Tom

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http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0144b.htm

Under the assumption that it has been observed that this one has three impact positions plotted, I would also assume that it has been noticed that the WC version does not have this, and in fact has only one position (Z313) plotted.

The CE585 drawing which has been conveniently "slipped" in, IS NOT the WC version of the survey.

It is in fact that version after the FBI had taken responsiblity and did their own re-enactment work and had Mr. West re-draw the survey plat.

Those of us who have some experience in drafting/mechanical drawing, are quite familiar with the "Revision" block, as well as what it means.

That the WC reduced in size it's exhibits to the extent that one truly can not make anything of them is to their credit in the obfuscation game.

Nevertheless, in event one could see the entire CE585, they would find the following at the bottom.

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Alright Tom, you got me. You provided 4 links, 3 of which feature plans labeled CE883 which appears once and CE585 which appears twice. As well as a sketch featuring trajectory calculations on graph paper, CE560. Aren’t all these links, both of the plans CE883 and CE585 and the sketch CE560, exhibits, that were submitted to the Warren Commission? I notice that CE883 appears to be an older plan. It lacks a Title Block on the lower right corner of the plan that appears in CE585. It also seems to be missing what appears to be a certification on the lower left corner of the plan that shows up on CE585. I would assume, despite the commission exhibit numbering, that CE883 is an earlier version and CE585 is the revised “dressed up” version with some type of certification? and a nice title block, minus the detail of the knoll. CE585 is a much prettier plan, if you don't mind losng the knoll detail. The revision box with the date of 2/7/64 on CE585 indicates that CE883 was the earlier version of the plan. The revision also seems to indicate that the earlier version either didn’t show something that whoever commissioned the plan wanted to see, or showed something that they wanted left out, as in the missing knoll detail. I can’t see the date on CE883 to be sure. Who knows? They may have just wanted a certification and a Surveyor’s seal, I can’t tell if CE883 is signed and sealed. The signing and sealing is make it an official document. It’s really hard to say much of anything without being able to read the durn thing. What’s the date on CE883? Aren’t all these plans submitted exhibits? They must have digitized this on the cheap. The resolution couldn’t be much worse. Maybe I just need a better pair of glasses. Are full size copies of the plans available? Sure would love to get my hands on both of these. Going price for a print of a survey is about 40 bucks these days, I thought 10 was expensive (imagine that).

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Alright Tom, you got me. You provided 4 links, 3 of which feature plans labeled CE883 which appears once and CE585 which appears twice. As well as a sketch featuring trajectory calculations on graph paper, CE560. Aren’t all these links, both of the plans CE883 and CE585 and the sketch CE560, exhibits, that were submitted to the Warren Commission? I notice that CE883 appears to be an older plan. It lacks a Title Block on the lower right corner of the plan that appears in CE585. It also seems to be missing what appears to be a certification on the lower left corner of the plan that shows up on CE585. I would assume, despite the commission exhibit numbering, that CE883 is an earlier version and CE585 is the revised “dressed up” version with some type of certification? and a nice title block, minus the detail of the knoll. CE585 is a much prettier plan, if you don't mind losng the knoll detail. The revision box with the date of 2/7/64 on CE585 indicates that CE883 was the earlier version of the plan. The revision also seems to indicate that the earlier version either didn’t show something that whoever commissioned the plan wanted to see, or showed something that they wanted left out, as in the missing knoll detail. I can’t see the date on CE883 to be sure. Who knows? They may have just wanted a certification and a Surveyor’s seal, I can’t tell if CE883 is signed and sealed. The signing and sealing is make it an official document. It’s really hard to say much of anything without being able to read the durn thing. What’s the date on CE883? Aren’t all these plans submitted exhibits? They must have digitized this on the cheap. The resolution couldn’t be much worse. Maybe I just need a better pair of glasses. Are full size copies of the plans available? Sure would love to get my hands on both of these. Going price for a print of a survey is about 40 bucks these days, I thought 10 was expensive (imagine that).

First off:

The reduction in size and resolultion problems are an apparant means of the WC to, as stated, "Hide in plain Sight" much of that information which they could not risk keeping completely hid.

And although you are most probably not up to date on the altered survey data in the WC Data block, this too was one of their "slight" sleight-of-hand tricks.

CE882 is purportedly* a copy of the survey plat which Mr. West prepared for the WC after their May 1964 re-enactment of the assassination.

CE883 is reported to be a EXACT "cardboard reproduction" of CE882.

Dates on these are May 31, 1964

In order to understand much of the WC, one must also understand their "slight" sleight-of-hand tricks.

The actual survey plat(CE882) was introduced into evidence in a sealed envelope which was never opened.

Thereafter, CE883 (reproduction on cardboard) was introduced as representing what was inside the envelope and never opened for view.

Now! You may find that I often tend to, if you will, see if anyone is paying attention---------to detail.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Rest assured, CE882 IS NOT/WAS NOT produced from the original WC survey plat.

And despite what some at times may think, there is some method to the madness, even if only I understand it at the time.

Over in John Dolva's postings as regards the Tague/Concrete curb strike, I intentionally reproduced directly from my full size copy of the WC survey plat, that portion of the plat which demonstrates the location of the concrete removal section.

This ABSOLUTELY exists on the original of the WC Survey plat, yet it is nowhere to be found and/or seen on either CE882 or CE883.

The Concrete curb removal section was removed from the South curb of Main St. approximately 21 feet before the curb disappears from the drawing as Main St. encountered the overpass.

It absolutely IS NOT seen on either CE882 or CE883. Therefore, neither are direct and unaltered copies of Mr. West survey plat.

(There John, you have your answer as to why I gave you the portion of the drawing with the curb removal section)

And although this would appear to be an irrelevant issue, it is quite relevant if the original West Survey in it's sealed envelope has disappeared, and especially so with the now known altered survey data block.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, to CE585

This exhibit was introduced into evidence during the questioning of Ronald Simmons of the Edgewood Arsenal Weapons Evaluation Branch.

Rest assured that the great majority of researchers were not even aware that such an item existed within the WC documents.

And fewer still would have caught that this document demonstrates a survey which represents three shots fired and three points of impact.

This alone should have opened some eyes, as the WC claimed that only the Z313 shot could be determined from the Z-film, yet Edgewood arsenal was given a drawing with the original date of December 5, 1963, which demonstrated the impact point of each of the three shots fired.

And when one considers the importance of the impact point of the first shot, as well as the 10 pages of circular reasoning by the WC on THE SHOT THAT MISSED, while having in their possession documents which had originally demonstrated that no shots missed as well as the impact point of all shots fired, then this begins to come into perspective as regards the WC lies and how they manipulated and attempted to hide the evidence which would reveal this.

And again, CE585 IS NOT the original drawing as was made on December 5, 1963, for the US Secret Service re-enactment and survey work which was in fact done on December 2, 3, & 4th.

CE585 is the "next generation"/revision of this drawing as done for the FBI on February 7, 1964, when the FBI took over this work and conducted their own re-enactment and survey work.

And, in this regards, Mr. West actually did very little work other than determine a point on Elm St. at which the FBI directed that impact point of a shot be moved to, and thereafter generate a new survey plat with the revision date of 02/07/64, which effectively changed the impact point of one of the shots fired from that location as determined by the US Secret Service on 12/5/63.

The WC Drawing is not a revision to the US Secret Service Drawing of 12/5/63.

The US Secret Service drawing of 12/5/63 and all of it's revisions are on a scale of 1' = 20 feet.

The WC Drawing is on a scale of 1" - 10 feet.

Hope that answered the questions as regards the WC Survey Plat (CE882/883) and the FBI's revision (02/07/64) to the US Secret Service Survey plat (CE585) of 12/5/63.

As regards the hand made drawing, this comes into play with the Edgewood Arsenal work of attempting to duplicate the shots fired as well as the lie by the FBI and WC as regards impact point for the second shot, and this alone is confusing enough.

Therefore, I will elaborate further on it later.

And, it is most unlikely that you will ever get your hands on any of the survey plats.

Of my knowledge, I am the only person who knew to contact Mr. West and obtain copies of these documents as well as ALL of the survey notes that he could find.

Now, since I long ago began to let this cat out of the bag, there are possibly others who followed through and managed to get some of this from Mr. West prior to his death.

If so, they have kept it quiet, and most probably do not know what to look for anyway.

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Alright Tom, you got me. You provided 4 links, 3 of which feature plans labeled CE883 which appears once and CE585 which appears twice. As well as a sketch featuring trajectory calculations on graph paper, CE560. Aren’t all these links, both of the plans CE883 and CE585 and the sketch CE560, exhibits, that were submitted to the Warren Commission? I notice that CE883 appears to be an older plan. It lacks a Title Block on the lower right corner of the plan that appears in CE585. It also seems to be missing what appears to be a certification on the lower left corner of the plan that shows up on CE585. I would assume, despite the commission exhibit numbering, that CE883 is an earlier version and CE585 is the revised “dressed up” version with some type of certification? and a nice title block, minus the detail of the knoll. CE585 is a much prettier plan, if you don't mind losng the knoll detail. The revision box with the date of 2/7/64 on CE585 indicates that CE883 was the earlier version of the plan. The revision also seems to indicate that the earlier version either didn’t show something that whoever commissioned the plan wanted to see, or showed something that they wanted left out, as in the missing knoll detail. I can’t see the date on CE883 to be sure. Who knows? They may have just wanted a certification and a Surveyor’s seal, I can’t tell if CE883 is signed and sealed. The signing and sealing is make it an official document. It’s really hard to say much of anything without being able to read the durn thing. What’s the date on CE883? Aren’t all these plans submitted exhibits? They must have digitized this on the cheap. The resolution couldn’t be much worse. Maybe I just need a better pair of glasses. Are full size copies of the plans available? Sure would love to get my hands on both of these. Going price for a print of a survey is about 40 bucks these days, I thought 10 was expensive (imagine that).

First off:

The reduction in size and resolultion problems are an apparant means of the WC to, as stated, "Hide in plain Sight" much of that information which they could not risk keeping completely hid.

And although you are most probably not up to date on the altered survey data in the WC Data block, this too was one of their "slight" sleight-of-hand tricks.

CE882 is purportedly* a copy of the survey plat which Mr. West prepared for the WC after their May 1964 re-enactment of the assassination.

CE883 is reported to be a EXACT "cardboard reproduction" of CE882.

Dates on these are May 31, 1964

In order to understand much of the WC, one must also understand their "slight" sleight-of-hand tricks.

The actual survey plat(CE882) was introduced into evidence in a sealed envelope which was never opened.

Thereafter, CE883 (reproduction on cardboard) was introduced as representing what was inside the envelope and never opened for view.

Now! You may find that I often tend to, if you will, see if anyone is paying attention---------to detail.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Rest assured, CE882 IS NOT/WAS NOT produced from the original WC survey plat.

And despite what some at times may think, there is some method to the madness, even if only I understand it at the time.

Over in John Dolva's postings as regards the Tague/Concrete curb strike, I intentionally reproduced directly from my full size copy of the WC survey plat, that portion of the plat which demonstrates the location of the concrete removal section.

This ABSOLUTELY exists on the original of the WC Survey plat, yet it is nowhere to be found and/or seen on either CE882 or CE883.

The Concrete curb removal section was removed from the South curb of Main St. approximately 21 feet before the curb disappears from the drawing as Main St. encountered the overpass.

It absolutely IS NOT seen on either CE882 or CE883. Therefore, neither are direct and unaltered copies of Mr. West survey plat.

(There John, you have your answer as to why I gave you the portion of the drawing with the curb removal section)

And although this would appear to be an irrelevant issue, it is quite relevant if the original West Survey in it's sealed envelope has disappeared, and especially so with the now known altered survey data block.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, to CE585

This exhibit was introduced into evidence during the questioning of Ronald Simmons of the Edgewood Arsenal Weapons Evaluation Branch.

Rest assured that the great majority of researchers were not even aware that such an item existed within the WC documents.

And fewer still would have caught that this document demonstrates a survey which represents three shots fired and three points of impact.

This alone should have opened some eyes, as the WC claimed that only the Z313 shot could be determined from the Z-film, yet Edgewood arsenal was given a drawing with the original date of December 5, 1963, which demonstrated the impact point of each of the three shots fired.

And when one considers the importance of the impact point of the first shot, as well as the 10 pages of circular reasoning by the WC on THE SHOT THAT MISSED, while having in their possession documents which had originally demonstrated that no shots missed as well as the impact point of all shots fired, then this begins to come into perspective as regards the WC lies and how they manipulated and attempted to hide the evidence which would reveal this.

And again, CE585 IS NOT the original drawing as was made on December 5, 1963, for the US Secret Service re-enactment and survey work which was in fact done on December 2, 3, & 4th.

CE585 is the "next generation"/revision of this drawing as done for the FBI on February 7, 1964, when the FBI took over this work and conducted their own re-enactment and survey work.

And, in this regards, Mr. West actually did very little work other than determine a point on Elm St. at which the FBI directed that impact point of a shot be moved to, and thereafter generate a new survey plat with the revision date of 02/07/64, which effectively changed the impact point of one of the shots fired from that location as determined by the US Secret Service on 12/5/63.

The WC Drawing is not a revision to the US Secret Service Drawing of 12/5/63.

The US Secret Service drawing of 12/5/63 and all of it's revisions are on a scale of 1' = 20 feet.

The WC Drawing is on a scale of 1" - 10 feet.

Hope that answered the questions as regards the WC Survey Plat (CE882/883) and the FBI's revision (02/07/64) to the US Secret Service Survey plat (CE585) of 12/5/63.

As regards the hand made drawing, this comes into play with the Edgewood Arsenal work of attempting to duplicate the shots fired as well as the lie by the FBI and WC as regards impact point for the second shot, and this alone is confusing enough.

Therefore, I will elaborate further on it later.

And, it is most unlikely that you will ever get your hands on any of the survey plats.

Of my knowledge, I am the only person who knew to contact Mr. West and obtain copies of these documents as well as ALL of the survey notes that he could find.

Now, since I long ago began to let this cat out of the bag, there are possibly others who followed through and managed to get some of this from Mr. West prior to his death.

If so, they have kept it quiet, and most probably do not know what to look for anyway.

Over in John Dolva's postings as regards the Tague/Concrete curb strike, I intentionally reproduced directly from my full size copy of the WC survey plat, that portion of the plat which demonstrates the location of the concrete removal section.

This ABSOLUTELY exists on the original of the WC Survey plat, yet it is nowhere to be found and/or seen on either CE882 or CE883.

The Concrete curb removal section was removed from the South curb of Main St. approximately 21 feet before the curb disappears from the drawing as Main St. encountered the overpass.

It absolutely IS NOT seen on either CE882 or CE883. Therefore, neither are direct and unaltered copies of Mr. West survey plat.

(There John, you have your answer as to why I gave you the portion of the drawing with the curb removal section)

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464a.htm

Rather than behave in the manner of the WC and continually reference some item which is hidden away somewhere else, and was most assuredly an efficient means of adding to the obfuscation, here it is again.

Anyone see the "curb removal section" on CE882?

Guess what!------------You have been lied to (by the WC) again.

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Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits. As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

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Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits. As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits.

My problem is found within the lies of the WC and their misrepresentation of the facts as relates to the position of JFK at the time/impact of the shots fired in the assassination.

Since you no doubt just got on board, then you are probably not aware that Time/Life started this survey work with Mr. West and he completed a survey plat for them on 11/26/63.

Thereafter, survey work and a survey plat were completed for the US Secret Service during December 2, 3, 4, with the survey plat completed the 5th, and then additional survey work and re-enactment for the FBI was completed on 02/07/64.

EACH and EVERY one of these surveys plotted an impact point for the first shot fired in the assassination.

Yet the WC just could not determine this point, and in fact left us with 10 pages of circular reasoning as regards THE SHOT THAT MISSED and how it may have been the first shot fired.

Without these surveys and their corresponding information, one is not even aware of the trail of lies which ultimately gave us the WC BS. Not to mention that they will never be able to progressively prove these lies.

As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

First off, you seem to be unaware as to exactly how many persons are searching for the answers to the questions of the JFK assassination.

And, rest assured that many are doing so for the "big bucks" involved, as well as the personal fame and glory.

So, let me assure you that there are those who would grab any such information and run with it, thereafter to claim it as their own work.

Having already experienced this on more than one occassion, I long ago learned that the information must be delved out in a manner that all who care can gain access to this data.

And, even though some of the "big boys" of the JFK assassination follow closely on this forum, there are also those completely honest persons such as Josiah Thompson, who deserve the final answers to the questions which their work brought out long ago.

Having set in Mr. West's home in Dallas, TX on more than one occassion and discussed the survey work as well as the various re-enactments, as well as presenting Mr. West with that information relative to the altered survey data which the WC did and then introduced into evidence, I must assume that if Mr. West wanted the world to know then he could have provided the information himself.

However, I also recognized that the County Surveyor position is also frequently as much a "political" position as it is a position of qualification.

Personally, I would like to think that it was due to my open and honest discussions with Mr. West that he felt that I was even worthy of providing a safe haven for that information which he had, as he certainly went out of his way to locate and make a copy of everything which he could find, as well as tell me all that he could recall in regards to the survey/re-enactment work in Dealy Plaza.

To include the garbage of what the WC did which ultimately resulted in what we see from their mouth now.

When I also took the time to explain to Mr. West exactly what it was all about, not only did he then fully place the pieces of the puzzel together and recognize the WHY?, but he literally broke out in laughter at what he and his personell had gone through for the WC to further confuse the issue.

The information as regards the survey work in Dealy Plaza as well as what it represents, has, for the most part been kept in my possession since then, with ONLY that information which I deemed necessary being allowed to "leak" out through sources such as Chuck Marler.

And, it was not until such time as I found out of the death of Mr. West that it was determined to re-enter this gallery of rabbit holes and begin to re-introduce a few facts as relates to the assassination of JFK.

Mr. West passed away a few years ago, and upon learning of his death I decided to openly begin to reveal those secrets which apparantly only he and I shared.

As I made no attempt to place any restrictions on the information which I shared and/or gave to him as regards the assassination re-enactments and survey work, neither did Mr. West place any restrictions on me.

And since he continued to live for many years after those early 1990's meetings at his home and telephone calls, then it is assumed that Mr. West could have openly provided ALL of the information which you ask for at any time that he so deemed.

Were it not for the internet and the ability to share this information with those persons who came before me and made honest and rational attempts to resolve the issues of the assassination of JFK, then I would be out planting flowers or doing some other endeavor which is far more rewarding.

However, those such as Mr. Thompson and a few others, have/had taken this subject matter as far as it could be taken at the time, and just as with the true background of LHO, it is now time to share the information with those who are not completely lost in the rabbit holes of multiple assassins and body kidnappings.

It will take "history" a considerable time to absorb, digest, and understand the significance of the West Survey data and it's correlation to the lies of the WC.

And, not unlike any learning proceess, one must understand the basics first.

Already, on this forum, portions of this information have been reporduced and presented with completely false information, to accomodate and buttress the "multiple assassin" theory.

So, the "complete" West Survey's will not be forthcoming, and just as I told John Dolva long ago, I certainly do not have the capability to scan or reproduce a survey plat which measures some 40" X 60" in size (the WC Survey Plat), and thereafter post it on the internet.

And although much of the survey notes could be reproduced, they would merely become another "pawn" in the game of continuation of confusion by those who either intentionally or unknowingly continue to confuse the issue.

The West Survey data is the single most factual pieces ('s) of evidence which exist that can prove absolute and intentional deception on the part of the WC.

It is for a governmental investigative body to see as well as the general world population, at a time (if & when) the US Population is willing to cease to expend their monies on "Alice in Wonderland" theories/books/etc; on the assassination, and recognize exactly, the exact amount of wool that "Specter & Company" pulled over the eyes of the world.

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I'm following this with great interest Tom. No doubt many are. Please continue. One big question that looms closer is 'why?'. Why would there be a need to confuse this on the part of the 'powers that be'? Perhaps you've given the answer in the past and could restate or direct to the relevant topic/post?

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top post:

excellent summary Tom......

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits. As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits.

My problem is found within the lies of the WC and their misrepresentation of the facts as relates to the position of JFK at the time/impact of the shots fired in the assassination.

Since you no doubt just got on board, then you are probably not aware that Time/Life started this survey work with Mr. West and he completed a survey plat for them on 11/26/63.

Thereafter, survey work and a survey plat were completed for the US Secret Service during December 2, 3, 4, with the survey plat completed the 5th, and then additional survey work and re-enactment for the FBI was completed on 02/07/64.

EACH and EVERY one of these surveys plotted an impact point for the first shot fired in the assassination.

Yet the WC just could not determine this point, and in fact left us with 10 pages of circular reasoning as regards THE SHOT THAT MISSED and how it may have been the first shot fired.

Without these surveys and their corresponding information, one is not even aware of the trail of lies which ultimately gave us the WC BS. Not to mention that they will never be able to progressively prove these lies.

As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

First off, you seem to be unaware as to exactly how many persons are searching for the answers to the questions of the JFK assassination.

And, rest assured that many are doing so for the "big bucks" involved, as well as the personal fame and glory.

So, let me assure you that there are those who would grab any such information and run with it, thereafter to claim it as their own work.

Having already experienced this on more than one occassion, I long ago learned that the information must be delved out in a manner that all who care can gain access to this data.

And, even though some of the "big boys" of the JFK assassination follow closely on this forum, there are also those completely honest persons such as Josiah Thompson, who deserve the final answers to the questions which their work brought out long ago.

Having set in Mr. West's home in Dallas, TX on more than one occassion and discussed the survey work as well as the various re-enactments, as well as presenting Mr. West with that information relative to the altered survey data which the WC did and then introduced into evidence, I must assume that if Mr. West wanted the world to know then he could have provided the information himself.

However, I also recognized that the County Surveyor position is also frequently as much a "political" position as it is a position of qualification.

Personally, I would like to think that it was due to my open and honest discussions with Mr. West that he felt that I was even worthy of providing a safe haven for that information which he had, as he certainly went out of his way to locate and make a copy of everything which he could find, as well as tell me all that he could recall in regards to the survey/re-enactment work in Dealy Plaza.

To include the garbage of what the WC did which ultimately resulted in what we see from their mouth now.

When I also took the time to explain to Mr. West exactly what it was all about, not only did he then fully place the pieces of the puzzel together and recognize the WHY?, but he literally broke out in laughter at what he and his personell had gone through for the WC to further confuse the issue.

The information as regards the survey work in Dealy Plaza as well as what it represents, has, for the most part been kept in my possession since then, with ONLY that information which I deemed necessary being allowed to "leak" out through sources such as Chuck Marler.

And, it was not until such time as I found out of the death of Mr. West that it was determined to re-enter this gallery of rabbit holes and begin to re-introduce a few facts as relates to the assassination of JFK.

Mr. West passed away a few years ago, and upon learning of his death I decided to openly begin to reveal those secrets which apparantly only he and I shared.

As I made no attempt to place any restrictions on the information which I shared and/or gave to him as regards the assassination re-enactments and survey work, neither did Mr. West place any restrictions on me.

And since he continued to live for many years after those early 1990's meetings at his home and telephone calls, then it is assumed that Mr. West could have openly provided ALL of the information which you ask for at any time that he so deemed.

Were it not for the internet and the ability to share this information with those persons who came before me and made honest and rational attempts to resolve the issues of the assassination of JFK, then I would be out planting flowers or doing some other endeavor which is far more rewarding.

However, those such as Mr. Thompson and a few others, have/had taken this subject matter as far as it could be taken at the time, and just as with the true background of LHO, it is now time to share the information with those who are not completely lost in the rabbit holes of multiple assassins and body kidnappings.

It will take "history" a considerable time to absorb, digest, and understand the significance of the West Survey data and it's correlation to the lies of the WC.

And, not unlike any learning proceess, one must understand the basics first.

Already, on this forum, portions of this information have been reporduced and presented with completely false information, to accomodate and buttress the "multiple assassin" theory.

So, the "complete" West Survey's will not be forthcoming, and just as I told John Dolva long ago, I certainly do not have the capability to scan or reproduce a survey plat which measures some 40" X 60" in size (the WC Survey Plat), and thereafter post it on the internet.

And although much of the survey notes could be reproduced, they would merely become another "pawn" in the game of continuation of confusion by those who either intentionally or unknowingly continue to confuse the issue.

The West Survey data is the single most factual pieces ('s) of evidence which exist that can prove absolute and intentional deception on the part of the WC.

It is for a governmental investigative body to see as well as the general world population, at a time (if & when) the US Population is willing to cease to expend their monies on "Alice in Wonderland" theories/books/etc; on the assassination, and recognize exactly, the exact amount of wool that "Specter & Company" pulled over the eyes of the world.

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