J. Walton Moore (CIA agent in Dallas)

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, what I've been trying to show with this is that Moore was simply doing the routine job you would expect from DCS, just as the FBI agents that contacted Oswald on his return from Russia were doing their routine day job.  Its not necessary to add any mystery now that we have learned a good a bit about how these agencies work.  Oswald should have been contacted and he and Marina should have been monitored - which they were. The Dallas CIA DC office was clearly informed as was the Dallas SAC/FBI office...and they initiated standard protocols.  It appears CIA may have been a little more circumspect with Oswald, but then he had come home with a Russian wife who had associations with Russian intelligence via her Uncle (at a minimum). 

As I tried to show in the various links, this sort of thing was routine work for DCS.  Of course the question is, did either CIA or FBI decide to carry their relationship with Oswald further, knowingly or not.  Its pretty clear FBI did,  whether both agencies did is a good question and I've speculated they did so in conjunction with their joint AMSANTA program targeting the FPCC and intel collection inside Cuba. 

What I've been trying to emphasize with this though is that it would have been routine to find CIA/DCS files on Oswald - and FBI Division 5 files on Oswald.  The fact that we don't suggests that those records had to be removed, destroyed, whatever. Hosty revealed Oswald had been under special subversive contact observation in Dallas...those records disappeared.  Bottom line to me is the disappearance of both DCS contact records and FBI records clearly shows that Oswald was a far better known figure to the intel agencies than they wanted to admit after assassination.

[Craig Carvalho]

Ron,

These entries are from Mailer's Oswald's Tale.

'On February 13, (1963) De Mohrenschildt arranged an evening in his home between Oswald and a young geologist named Volkmar Schmidt, who had studied psychology at Heidelberg. The two men, having been brought together, talked for hours over the kitchen table.'   

According to (Edward) Eptstein: 'Schmidt ... tried to win his confidence by appearing to be in sympathy with his political views and making even more extreme statements. In an intentionally melodramatic way Schmidt brought up the subject of General Edwin A. Walker, who had been forced to resign from the Army because of his open support for the John Birch Society.'

'Schmidt could see that he had finally gotten through to Oswald. As he listened to Oswald define more closely his political ideas, he began to work out his "psychological profile," as he called it. Oswald seemed to be a "totally alienated individual,"  obsessed with political ideology and bent on self-destruction... a Dostoyevskian character impelled by his own reasoning toward a "logical suicide," '

As we can observe De Mohrenschildt is not only providing information to the CIA about Oswald, he is also acting as a catalyst for future events which will put Oswald on the path to murder. The moment Oswald pulls the trigger of his Carcano on the night of April 10, 1963 there will be no going back. Forces were unleashed that neither Oswald, nor his svengali De Mohrenschildt, could have anticipated.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Craig Carvalho

[Ron Bulman]

On 10/28/2019 at 5:18 PM, Craig Carvalho said:

Ron,

These entries are from Mailer's Oswald's Tale.

'On February 13, (1963) De Mohrenschildt arranged an evening in his home between Oswald and a young geologist named Volkmar Schmidt, who had studied psychology at Heidelberg. The two men, having been brought together, talked for hours over the kitchen table.'   

According to (Edward) Eptstein: 'Schmidt ... tried to win his confidence by appearing to be in sympathy with his political views and making even more extreme statements. In an intentionally melodramatic way Schmidt brought up the subject of General Edwin A. Walker, who had been forced to resign from the Army because of his open support for the John Birch Society.'

'Schmidt could see that he had finally gotten through to Oswald. As he listened to Oswald define more closely his political ideas, he began to work out his "psychological profile," as he called it. Oswald seemed to be a "totally alienated individual,"  obsessed with political ideology and bent on self-destruction... a Dostoyevskian character impelled by his own reasoning toward a "logical suicide," '

As we can observe De Mohrenschildt is not only providing information to the CIA about Oswald, he is also acting as a catalyst for future events which will put Oswald on the path to murder. The moment Oswald pulls the trigger of his Carcano on the night of April 10, 1963 there will be no going back. Forces were unleashed that neither Oswald, nor his svengali De Mohrenschildt, could have anticipated.

From what I've read Mailer was mistaken.  Oswald never fired a shot.

[Craig Carvalho]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

From what I've read Mailer was mistaken.  Oswald never fired a shot.

Could you give me a list of what you've read? Would be interested in taking a look myself.

[Ron Bulman]

41 minutes ago, Craig Carvalho said:

Could you give me a list of what you've read? Would be interested in taking a look myself.

This will do for starters.

https://kennedysandking.com/

[Ron Bulman]

On 10/27/2019 at 11:44 PM, Larry Hancock said:

Ron, what I've been trying to show with this is that Moore was simply doing the routine job you would expect from DCS, just as the FBI agents that contacted Oswald on his return from Russia were doing their routine day job.  Its not necessary to add any mystery now that we have learned a good a bit about how these agencies work.  Oswald should have been contacted and he and Marina should have been monitored - which they were. The Dallas CIA DC office was clearly informed as was the Dallas SAC/FBI office...and they initiated standard protocols.  It appears CIA may have been a little more circumspect with Oswald, but then he had come home with a Russian wife who had associations with Russian intelligence via her Uncle (at a minimum). 

As I tried to show in the various links, this sort of thing was routine work for DCS.  Of course the question is, did either CIA or FBI decide to carry their relationship with Oswald further, knowingly or not.  Its pretty clear FBI did,  whether both agencies did is a good question and I've speculated they did so in conjunction with their joint AMSANTA program targeting the FPCC and intel collection inside Cuba. 

What I've been trying to emphasize with this though is that it would have been routine to find CIA/DCS files on Oswald - and FBI Division 5 files on Oswald.  The fact that we don't suggests that those records had to be removed, destroyed, whatever. Hosty revealed Oswald had been under special subversive contact observation in Dallas...those records disappeared.  Bottom line to me is the disappearance of both DCS contact records and FBI records clearly shows that Oswald was a far better known figure to the intel agencies than they wanted to admit after assassination.

Hi Larry,

I think by now you know I respect your work and analysis more than just about anybody out there.  Not trying to create any mystery.  I've wondered for years about who set Oswald up.  Somebody had to.  He didn't just wander into the trap.  

Read about Angleton keeping his files close/closed.  Wondered about Bill Harvey's statement about  keeping no records.  Might that principle have applied?  Regarding the lack of files from Moore, and more?

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks Ron, I know I'm a bit conservative and can be a contrarian but my goal is to parse the conspiracy as finely as I can.  My best guess for how Oswald was "tagged" goes line this - first, by the time he got to New Orleans he was a known figure to both the FBI and CIA and was a cooperative source for the FBI.  He was also under consideration for CIA use in propaganda and possibly for joint FBI/CIA use in AMSANTA.   Both of those explain why there are missing records in both agencies.  One of the risks both agencies always face is having their assets turned against them (whether knowingly doubled or patsied).  Both have suffered from that repeatedly and we know they do damage control by destroying records...its just SOP.

But as far as being selected as a patsy, I believe it was Oswald's high profile media visibility as a Castro supporter in New Orleans that got him picked as someone who would point to Castro. We have good evidence that he was being used in some fashion in regard to an incident in the DC area and his own letters verify that and associate him not only with Castro but with CPUSA.  At that point in time he was "tagged" to point to Castro....but unfortunately we have no clear clue by who....Nagell tells us it was Cubans posing as Castro agents, there is some evidence to support that but maybe he was just being told to play with them....in any event that aborted and he ended up in Dallas. 

We have some pretty good leads that in Dallas he was doing some strange things on his own that look a lot like he was voluntarily being a dangle...for the FBI?  That would make a lot of sense given the gun buys going on and the signs they were all over the House on Harlandale. That scenario is also cooperated by Hosty's remarks about Oswald being under surveillance and meeting with subversives..

So as far as I can tell it was in Dallas, where his movements were being monitored and his own use of alias, post office boxes, fake name and fake ID suggest he was either playing at being an source on his own accord or encouraged to do so - and that was known to the people he was associating with - that he became a true patsy, especially once he went to work at the TSBD. One thing that argues against his being a knowing part of the plan at that point is his continued search for a job including applying for jobs elsewhere after his employment at the TSBD (that application is on record).

So, no, he didn't just wonder into the trap, it was the culmination of his activities over several months by that point. I suspect if we could see the Joinnedes (sp) records we would have some support for that...which is why multiple judges have denied access to them. And if the FBI files in New Orleans had not been destroyed there would be more - ditto for all the FBI subversive division files in Dallas. And ditto for the Domestic Contact files. But up to the day of the assassination it appears the FBI was watching him and viewed him as a window into the subversive activities they were tasked to deal with, and then what had been a useful source turned into a terrible threat for two agencies.   

 

 

[David Boylan]

I would add that William "Oswald was a useful idiot" Kent needs further research. He was George Joannides supervisor and just coincidentally happened to be in New Orleans during the latter half of 1963.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=53424&relPageId=2

[Paul Brancato]

9 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Thanks Ron, I know I'm a bit conservative and can be a contrarian but my goal is to parse the conspiracy as finely as I can.  My best guess for how Oswald was "tagged" goes line this - first, by the time he got to New Orleans he was a known figure to both the FBI and CIA and was a cooperative source for the FBI.  He was also under consideration for CIA use in propaganda and possibly for joint FBI/CIA use in AMSANTA.   Both of those explain why there are missing records in both agencies.  One of the risks both agencies always face is having their assets turned against them (whether knowingly doubled or patsied).  Both have suffered from that repeatedly and we know they do damage control by destroying records...its just SOP.

But as far as being selected as a patsy, I believe it was Oswald's high profile media visibility as a Castro supporter in New Orleans that got him picked as someone who would point to Castro. We have good evidence that he was being used in some fashion in regard to an incident in the DC area and his own letters verify that and associate him not only with Castro but with CPUSA.  At that point in time he was "tagged" to point to Castro....but unfortunately we have no clear clue by who....Nagell tells us it was Cubans posing as Castro agents, there is some evidence to support that but maybe he was just being told to play with them....in any event that aborted and he ended up in Dallas. 

We have some pretty good leads that in Dallas he was doing some strange things on his own that look a lot like he was voluntarily being a dangle...for the FBI?  That would make a lot of sense given the gun buys going on and the signs they were all over the House on Harlandale. That scenario is also cooperated by Hosty's remarks about Oswald being under surveillance and meeting with subversives..

So as far as I can tell it was in Dallas, where his movements were being monitored and his own use of alias, post office boxes, fake name and fake ID suggest he was either playing at being an source on his own accord or encouraged to do so - and that was known to the people he was associating with - that he became a true patsy, especially once he went to work at the TSBD. One thing that argues against his being a knowing part of the plan at that point is his continued search for a job including applying for jobs elsewhere after his employment at the TSBD (that application is on record).

So, no, he didn't just wonder into the trap, it was the culmination of his activities over several months by that point. I suspect if we could see the Joinnedes (sp) records we would have some support for that...which is why multiple judges have denied access to them. And if the FBI files in New Orleans had not been destroyed there would be more - ditto for all the FBI subversive division files in Dallas. And ditto for the Domestic Contact files. But up to the day of the assassination it appears the FBI was watching him and viewed him as a window into the subversive activities they were tasked to deal with, and then what had been a useful source turned into a terrible threat for two agencies.   

 

 

Larry - one thing I’ve never bought into was the idea that Oswald was a legitimate Castro supporter. Do you agree? If so, then his Commie bonafides were paper thin. Doesn’t it make more sense that he was already an intelligence asset when he defected? And that his New Orleans shenanigans were orchestrated?

[Larry Hancock]

My cut would be that, as DeMohrenschieldt said, Oswald was something of a proto hippie - interested in a lot of things that were a bit contrarian to his raising and environment.  We know he was more liberal about race, he was interested in things that his peers were not - like socialism, life in Russia, the Cuban revolution. All of which doesn't make him a Communist or a Castro supporter, it means he was curious. His fellow marines testified to those interests.  But Oswald was also quick to pick up on Russian hypocrisy,  you see that in his manuscript were he really guts Russia for using the communist movement for nationalist ends. 

My suspicion is that from the beginning, Oswald managed to combine his curiosity with opportunities....starting with the OSI and communist provocateur bar girls in Japan.  By the time he gets to New Orleans is is walking a tight rope between his own interests and people who are manipulating him for their own agendas. 

So, yes I suspect he was already something of a "source" when he went to Russia, how much knowing vs how much  manipulated is the question - but by the time you get to New Orleans, as you say, his shenanigans were being orchestrated.  On the other hand, I also have a feeling Oswald was bright enough to at least at times thinking he was playing the manipulators for his own interests.  He just got in way over his head, thought he was in control but had no idea how many people were pulling his strings in various ways.  So, interested in Cuba and Castro and the Cuban revolution - yes.  A radical Castro supporter - no.  But very possibly portraying himself differently according to the game he was playing -  anti-communist marine vet to the exiles and fellow traveler to those representing themselves as Cuban agents.

Which left him in a terribly exposed position of being both witting - and unwitting.

[Karl Kinaski]

C.B.Cabell an James Walton Moore Mohrenschild Orlov Oswald.pdf 

JFK fired Charles Cabell over the BOP, Cabell was full of hate for JFK, Cabell knew Walton Moore very well,  Moore knew  Oswalds handler De Mohrenschild and  Moore knew Oswald (called him  "harmless lunatic" prior to the assassination). 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Karl Kinaski

[Benjamin Cole]

On 6/11/2021 at 10:12 PM, Karl Kinaski said:

C.B.Cabell an James Walton Moore Mohrenschild Orlov Oswald.pdf 29.71 kB · 5 downloads  

JFK fired Charles Cabell over the BOP, Cabell was full of hate for JFK, Cabell knew Walton Moore very well,  Moore knew  Oswalds handler De Mohrenschild and  Moore knew Oswald (called him  "harmless lunatic" prior to the assassination). 

Mohrenschildt said he was friends with the Dallas mayor Cabell too. 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Days before Mohrenschildt was scheduled to testify before Congress (on the JFKA), Mohrenschildt "committed suicide".  Just another example of key witnesses to the JFKA meeting unnatural deaths.  Another example is Louisiana Congressman Hale Boggs who died in an airplane accident after saying (about the Warren Commission's lone nut gunman) "that dog don't hunt."  Boggs was actually on the WC and therefore cast grave doubts on its findings.

[Ron Bulman]

On 6/17/2021 at 9:12 AM, Chuck Schwartz said:

Days before Mohrenschildt was scheduled to testify before Congress (on the JFKA), Mohrenschildt "committed suicide".

With Fonzi's card in his pocket, and Bill O'Lielly on the doorstep (not).

[Ron Bulman]

On 6/11/2021 at 10:12 AM, Karl Kinaski said:

C.B.Cabell an James Walton Moore Mohrenschild Orlov Oswald.pdf 29.71 kB · 7 downloads  

JFK fired Charles Cabell over the BOP, Cabell was full of hate for JFK, Cabell knew Walton Moore very well,  Moore knew  Oswalds handler De Mohrenschild and  Moore knew Oswald (called him  "harmless lunatic" prior to the assassination). 

This was an interesting post.  Cabbell referred to Moore as Walt.  Maybe not the best of friends but on friendly terms.  Throw in CIA asset Mayor Earl Cabell, a nice little trifecta of useful local CIA personnel.