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GPFLOOR / Project Oswald?


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James,

Mr. Davis was Calvin Davis a polygraph examiner.

GPFLOOR was assigned on the 27th of November, 1963.

James

SE stood for?

It's interesting that the cryptonym was assigned on November 27th, but the file wasn't opened until December 12th. Everything in the 200-5-41 file was reclassified to Oswald's 201 file.

See the document cited by Chuck Robbins in this thread and then this document:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

The other day, I ran across a document that said most of Oswald's stuff was in the files pertaining to the WH and SE divisions. I know that WH stodd for Western Hemisphere. Do you know what SE stood for?

Steve Thomas

There is mention of a 200-5-40 file which is not mentioned as being included in LHO's file.

Also, the document you provided mentions "wrong dates". What were these wrong dates and how did they

determine that they were the wrong dates?

So much nonsense is in these files that I don't trust them at all.

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  • 1 year later...

There are only 2 individuals [to the best of my knowledge] that used the terms Oswald Project and Project Oswald in the HSCA investigation into the assassination of Pres. Kennedy. One was Richard Helms and the other was James Wilcott, who, ironically worked at a Florida CIA station after leaving Atsugi. Among the many fence straddling and closed-ended investigations was the very real maneuvering to destroy Wilcott's credibility, which was more than successfully accomplished. Nevertheless, if one reads Wilcott's HSCA Testimony with an open mind the question that begs to be asked is, if Wilcott was lying why are Helm's and Wilcott the only individuals familiar with the term?

Although Blakey and Company are not reticent in their statements that Wilcott's testimony was unreliable, the reasoning and explanation is far from convincing for myself, and, I would suspect others.

Therefore, as I have perused the declassified files I have been very interested in anything that mentions the words Project Oswald.......

While I share a certain amount of skepticism regarding whether the various agencies would stoop so low as to place "false or fake" documents at NARA, there is at least one document that references "Project Oswald," and it is from the LA Division files, it is not a lot of help, as documents go, but there is an interesting document that provides a linkage of sorts to JMWAVE.

The document is entitled

CABLE - REQUEST VERY DISCREET CHECK TO LEARN WHETHER ((DELETION)0 HAS VISITED MEXICO SINCE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

See

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

First, the document is dated January 6, 1964 [2nd page of document, not the RIF page] and is from the Director.......

1. Request very discreet check to learn whether AMPALM-26 [iden] unwitting Cuban writer for AMPALM Project at WAVE has visited Mexico since assassination of President Kennedy. AMPALM-26 has originated a report that OSWALD had a long conference with the Cuban Amb in Mexico in restaurant on outskirts of Mexico City. AMPALM 26 Report has found its way into unofficial analysis of whole case prepared by Cuban psychologist JOSE I. LASAGA in Miami.

2. Do not wish AMPALM 26 to learn his identity as source this info has been divulged by LASUGA. Please check Immigration Records and local sources who might know.

It doesent take a rocket scientist to figure out that AMPALM is an important name to remember, as even mentioning it is really needed, I suppose forgot how many genuises reside here on the Forum....At any rate LITEMPO-4 reported.......

that AMPALM 26 was in Mexico on November 21, 1963 to attend "Colegio Nacional de Periodistas" to assist in series of meetings held by that group according to L-4......

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

History Lessons Over

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Wansn't there a Lobster magazine article in the 1980s that claimed that Verson was an asset of David Phillips?

Robin,

I'm not sure about the Lobster article but I seem to remember that Diaz Verson was one who supported the David Phillips directed information that Oswald had stayed at the home of Sylvia Duran in Mexico City.

James

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Wansn't there a Lobster magazine article in the 1980s that claimed that Verson was an asset of David Phillips?

To backtrack for a moment, before reading this you might want to go back to page 1 of this thread, and read Shanet Clark's post where he mentions........

You will find he astutely mentions.....Its interesting that the only two GP crypts are Oswald and Kennedy,

GP / FLOOR

and

GP / IDEAL

--------------also the recent thread about the 5412 committee had important crypts

RU/EPIA

RU/MSMA

RU/EPCR

RU/EPDA

RU/EPIC (CIA)

RU/EKPA (joint chiefs of staff)

for top secret 5412 and executive action limited release memos

between M. BUNDY FITZGERALD TAYLOR HELMS and MCCONE

Now flash forward to the ARRB's Final Report

In it we read......

Within the McCone papers, the Review Board noticed several file folders with notations or sheets indicating documents on a wide variety of subjects which are either missing or were destroyed. Of the missing or destroyed documents, two refer to the Kennedy assassination. One document from a 1963 listing is described as "Date of Meeting26 Nov; Participants DCI & Bundy; Subjects Covered Msg concerning Pres. Kennedy's assassination." The second document is described as "Date of Meeting19 May 64; Participants DCI, J.J. McCloy; Dinner at Residence Re: Oswald." This document is annotated "Destroyed 12872." CIA historians noted that both documents were missing when they reviewed the files in 1986. The Review Board designated as assassination records all relevant documents from the McCone files including the notations on the destroyed and missing records.

See

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/arrb98/part08.htm

Lastly, no one has ever been very willing to step up to the plate and speculate about Project Oswald, and bear in mind, this is sheer speculation......I insist that it be taken with a grain of salt.......

Q. What is the most puzzling and mystifying element of the Kennedy Assassination

A. While I again emphasize this is a very, very speculative comment, and should be taken as such......

The truly myriad amount of Oswald sightings, is at least one aspect of the post-assassination confusion that seems to be more than just "a lot of benign persons who really thought they saw Lee Harvey Oswald."

Some veteran researchers will postulate that some of these impersonations were deliberate attempts to sow confusion, as I believe is the case. The ultimate example would be the Bolton Ford Dealership incident, in which paperwork was actually signed with the name Oswald, while he was ostensibly in Russia. Other more obvious manipulations were the Peace March which started in Canada, and the Oswald in Algiers incident......

So.....is it possible that there was a component of Project Oswald that lent itself to the actualization of "creating" Oswald sightings in places he could not possibly have been with the deliberate goal of creating a mass of confusion......

I mention this not to promote the idea as a bona fide reality, but to get people to ponder the issue. We have it from a pretty good source that Ruth Paine is on record, according to researchers, as having requested information from the government about Lee Harvey Oswald possibly as early as 1957. George Michael Evica proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that our government has used religious groups as a cover for intelligence gathering, in this case the Quaker Young Friends Committee.

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Wansn't there a Lobster magazine article in the 1980s that claimed that Verson was an asset of David Phillips?

To backtrack for a moment, before reading this you might want to go back to page 1 of this thread, and read Shanet Clark's post where he astutely mentions.....

Its interesting that the only two GP crypts are Oswald and Kennedy,

GP / FLOOR

and

GP / IDEAL

--------------also the recent thread about the 5412 committee had important crypts

RU/EPIA

RU/MSMA

RU/EPCR

RU/EPDA

RU/EPIC (CIA)

RU/EKPA (joint chiefs of staff)

for top secret 5412 and executive action limited release memos

between M. BUNDY FITZGERALD TAYLOR HELMS and MCCONE

Now flash forward to the ARRB's Final Report

In it we read......

Within the McCone papers, the Review Board noticed several file folders with notations or sheets indicating documents on a wide variety of subjects which are either missing or were destroyed. Of the missing or destroyed documents, two refer to the Kennedy assassination. One document from a 1963 listing is described as "Date of Meeting26 Nov; Participants DCI & Bundy; Subjects Covered Msg concerning Pres. Kennedy's assassination." The second document is described as "Date of Meeting19 May 64; Participants DCI, J.J. McCloy; Dinner at Residence Re: Oswald." This document is annotated "Destroyed 12872." CIA historians noted that both documents were missing when they reviewed the files in 1986. The Review Board designated as assassination records all relevant documents from the McCone files including the notations on the destroyed and missing records.

See

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/arrb98/part08.htm

Lastly, no one has ever been very willing to step up to the plate and speculate about Project Oswald, and bear in mind, this is sheer speculation......I insist that it be taken with a grain of salt.......

Q. What is the most puzzling and mystifying element of the Kennedy Assassination

A. While I again emphasize this is a very, very speculative comment, and should be taken as such......

The truly myriad amount of Oswald sightings, is at least one aspect of the post-assassination confusion that seems to be more than just "a lot of benign persons who really thought they saw Lee Harvey Oswald."

Some veteran researchers will postulate that some of these impersonations were deliberate attempts to sow confusion, as I believe is the case. The ultimate example would be the Bolton Ford Dealership incident, in which paperwork was actually signed with the name Oswald, while he was ostensibly in Russia. Other more obvious manipulations were the Peace March which started in Canada, and the Oswald in Algiers incident......

So.....is it possible that there was a component of Project Oswald that lent itself to the actualization of "creating" Oswald sightings in places he could not possibly have been with the deliberate goal of creating a mass of confusion......

I mention this not to promote the idea as a bona fide reality, but to get people to ponder the issue. We have it from a pretty good source that Ruth Paine is on record, according to researchers, as having requested information from the government about Lee Harvey Oswald possibly as early as 1957. George Michael Evica proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that our government has used religious groups as a cover for intelligence gathering, in this case the Quaker Young Friends Committee.

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Here I plug the book again. Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong. My probable theories:

1. Did the "birth" Oswald leave his family and go to Russia and never came back?

2. Instead a Russian "agent" came back and pretended he was Marguerite's son and the Oswalds had to accept him as family. To cover up the difference in appearance, Robert Oswald said (paraphrase), "I couldn't believe how much hair he lost!"

3. Over the years, Robert Oswald has never contacted Marina or her kids by the Russian Harvey. Because Robert is not related to those kids. A blood test would prove this.

4. We have few pictures, if any, of Lee Oswald, brother to Robert.

5. Marguerite has said that her son worked for Intelligence and died for his country. I believe at one point she said it wasn't her son in that grave.

6. Donald Norton portraying Lee Oswald? Or actually being Lee Oswald? The resemblance is scant.

These are the things I turn over in my head everyday. I would enjoy anyone's input.

Kathy Collins

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Here I plug the book again. Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong. My probable theories:

1. Did the "birth" Oswald leave his family and go to Russia and never came back?

2. Instead a Russian "agent" came back and pretended he was Marguerite's son and the Oswalds had to accept him as family. To cover up the difference in appearance, Robert Oswald said (paraphrase), "I couldn't believe how much hair he lost!"

3. Over the years, Robert Oswald has never contacted Marina or her kids by the Russian Harvey. Because Robert is not related to those kids. A blood test would prove this.

4. We have few pictures, if any, of Lee Oswald, brother to Robert.

5. Marguerite has said that her son worked for Intelligence and died for his country. I believe at one point she said it wasn't her son in that grave.

6. Donald Norton portraying Lee Oswald? Or actually being Lee Oswald? The resemblance is scant.

These are the things I turn over in my head everyday. I would enjoy anyone's input.

Kathy Collins

This subplot, to the assassination, if you will is one that is typical of the assassination, facts, [as in government documents,] mixed with accounts of persons, in this particular case "Donald Norton," whom the Central Intelligence Agency disavows as being a "CIA Agent," but there is the proverbial disclaimer that just because the CIA say's he wasn't an agent, does not mean he did not have a relationship with them, whether as a contract agent or an informant or even working on their behalf in an unofficial capacity, all that is needed to cover up an operation is the exercising of plausible deniability, and that's the rub.......Personally, I think logic dictates the fact that "something" out of the ordinary transpired at Botkinskaya Hospital, it is in declassified documents or an interview that the Russian physicians stated quite clearly that they knew Oswald understood Russian while they spoke to him there, but he pretended not to understand what they were saying to him; that is my understanding......I personally do not believe a Soviet assassin returned from the USSR in place of Oswald, and that the real Oswald remained there, but obviously, that is just my opinion, and ultimately in many way's that is the uneven playing field JFK researchers have been battling on for 44 years, battling not only, informational black holes, if you will but deliberate attempts to obfuscate the truth, or, at the very least to muddy the waters.

As an example of the last statement, I would cite the JFK/UFO conundrum.......I have personally always had an extreme disdain for dealing with the linkage, as if solving the assassination wasn't difficult enough, throw in "how is the UFO issue relevant," and it is, as much as it pains me to say it, because of the fact that Guy Bannister, Philip Corso Jr and Fred Chrisman all had backgrounds where they were injected into UFO related "incidents" years and years before Dealey Plaza.

Corso even wrote a book entitled "The Day After Roswell," about you know the drill.......My personal view is that while Corso can perhaps be trusted about Roswell, [when you consider he was also a member of the Shickshinny Knights of Malta, which was an actual, as I understand it, Pennsylvania area "branch" if you will, of the very significant Sovereign Military Order of Malta, or SMOM] I personally, with regards to Corso's "take" on the assassination, is about as credible as George Bush stating that Al Qaeda was working with Saddam Hussein to bring about 9-11, that dog just don't hunt, to coin a phrase.....

After years of exploring the various "theories" about the assassination, to me the "best evidence" of a plot can be somewhat proven by documenting the actions and inactions of the following persons both before and after the assassination.......Allen Dulles, J. Edgar Hoover, James Angleton, William Harvey, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Helms, Charles Willoughby, David Atlee Phillips, Richard Nixon, Richard Cain, Jack Ruby ......But, since the onus is on the researchers, to prove a conspiracy, in the mainstream perception you can have 100,000 pages of "circumstantial evidence" to implicate the above persons, if you cant detail "it," meaning "how, what, when where and why the assassination was planned, orchestrated, carried out, and who the gunmen were and how they made their getaway" you flunked, you failed......While the preceding is arguably true, reams of circumstantial evidence are indicative of a complete absence of honesty, and being forthright in resolving the unanswered questions, all the while dealing with official classified documents and evidence either being taken from the National Archives, or never making it to the Archives, in the first place with regards to the former, [see ARRB Final Report] and a plethora of destroyed or altered evidence [washing JFK's death shirt at the cleaners, the broken chain of possession of the shell's at the Tippit crime scene, removing the windshield of the Presidential limousine, and physically dismantling it and "refurbishing" it......If you are a thinking person, all of the above facts comprise the most disgusting episode in American history I have ever seen in my life, and then to add insult to injury, "establishment historians" have the unmitigated gall to suggest that the assassinations JFK, MLK and RFK did not change American history.........

It is no wonder America is in the sorry shape it is now, and it is because of the same people who brought you the Kennedy Assassination

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Personally, I think logic dictates the fact that "something" out of the ordinary transpired at Botkinskaya Hospital, it is in declassified documents or an interview that the Russian physicians stated quite clearly that they knew Oswald understood Russian while they spoke to him there, but he pretended not to understand what they were saying to him; that is my understanding......I personally do not believe a Soviet assassin returned from the USSR in place of Oswald, and that the real Oswald remained there

-- Robert Howard.

While this Adminsitration [illegal and unelected] is an extreme and should have awoken all, this process has been underway overtly since Dallas and covertly before. It will continue no matter who is the next President.

-- Peter Lemkin

Mr. Simkin says we can ask questions here. First, let me say that there is an audio tape of "Harvey" Oswald in Russia, obviously learning English. Three years later, it is the same voice on the 2 radio shows before the assassination and the same voice of the patsy in the Dallas Police Station, as he answered reporter's questions. Only by 1963, he has English down pat for the most part. McAdams might have these audios. This is why I believe Harvey Oswald was Russian and wasn't related to Robert Oswald, etc.

My question concerns Peter's quote above, that it doesn't matter who the President is, it'll still go on, getting control of world govt. Someone told me that during Clinton's Presidency, 200 political murders were committed -- I don't know how accurate that is. I find it hard to believe that the Clintons themselves put this in motion. Vince Foster was probably the first. Now, the Clintons' knowing this, knowing they didn't have control -- why would they want to remain in office? Why seek another term? According to what someone told me, when Clinton took office, he asked Military Brass to inform him as to the Kennedy Assassination and, separately, UFOs. He was told he "didn't have high enough clearance." So Clinton walked into the Presidency wide-eyed and bushy (no pun intended) - tailed. Why seek a second office? Who were they going to kill next?

So, on the same note, why is Hillary running? She must know she would have no power.

If anyone has an answer to this, I'd be willing to read it.

Kathy Collins

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I really have no comment on the current political conundrum except to say that if I had to chose between Hillary and Obama, it would be Obama, he is [as Bobby Kennedy was in 1968] the candidate for change which is why he is taken so very seriously, by the forces around him. A vote for any Republican is a statement that one is not bothered by the disgraceful lies, scandals usurpations of power, and fiddling while Rome burns of the last seven years...Moving on, however, I hope Forum members will read information contained in the following link it is by Peter Dales Scott and documents some of the very convoluted and myriad inter-connections between the powers that be, that were operating in Dallas in 1963.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3t9BYWJD8...pg=PA48&vq=

jack+ruby&sig=nmWA3TW2R4YFpgeYO0coYiU09oI#PPA293,M1

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I really have no comment on the current political conundrum except to say that if I had to chose between Hillary and Obama, it would be Obama, he is [as Bobby Kennedy was in 1968] the candidate for change which is why he is taken so very seriously, by the forces around him. A vote for any Republican is a statement that one is not bothered by the disgraceful lies, scandals usurpations of power, and fiddling while Rome burns of the last seven years...Moving on, however, I hope Forum members will read information contained in the following link, it is by Peter Dale Scott and documents some of the very convoluted and myriad inter-connections between the powers that be, that were operating in Dallas in 1963.

http://books.google.com/

books?id=3t9BYWJD8REC&pg=PA48&vq=jack+ruby&sig=nmWA3TW2R4YFpgeYO0coYiU09oI#PPA293,M1

The URL link does not fit into a single line, that can be copied & pasted therefore simply cut the link URL paste into a document and then paste the URL into your browser....

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Personally, I think logic dictates the fact that "something" out of the ordinary transpired at Botkinskaya Hospital, it is in declassified documents or an interview that the Russian physicians stated quite clearly that they knew Oswald understood Russian while they spoke to him there, but he pretended not to understand what they were saying to him; that is my understanding......I personally do not believe a Soviet assassin returned from the USSR in place of Oswald, and that the real Oswald remained there

-- Robert Howard.

While this Adminsitration [illegal and unelected] is an extreme and should have awoken all, this process has been underway overtly since Dallas and covertly before. It will continue no matter who is the next President.

-- Peter Lemkin

Mr. Simkin says we can ask questions here. First, let me say that there is an audio tape of "Harvey" Oswald in Russia, obviously learning English. Three years later, it is the same voice on the 2 radio shows before the assassination and the same voice of the patsy in the Dallas Police Station, as he answered reporter's questions. Only by 1963, he has English down pat for the most part. McAdams might have these audios. This is why I believe Harvey Oswald was Russian and wasn't related to Robert Oswald, etc.

Kathy Collins

Kathy, there's a longer version of this tape, easily found on the web, which has Oswald speaking in his normal American accent as well as his rather poor imitation of an upper class English accent on the same tape. The longer version makes it more obvious, IMO, that Oswald is just fooling around. Its been suggested by some that this recording is really "Oswald" being taught how to speak English, if this was true I dont belive his KGB "teacher" would have handed the tapes over. Just my opinion. When it comes to Norton all common sense seems to fly out the window. Had LHO survived he would have been taken back to Russia and "got rid of", at the very least he would have been hidden away somewhere very remote. The Russians would have 100% definitely NOT have allowed him to go back to the USA, let alone start talking to JFK researchers. Rethink Armstrong, his theories are so ludicous I wouldn't be surprised if the guy was pure disinformation, this is certainly the kind of whacko book that gets researchers laughed at by the public. And no politician will ever support the research community whilst nonsense like that is being supported. Denis

Edited by Denis Pointing
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I respect your opinion Peter of course, as for my comment re getting support from politicians, I was not speaking of financial support but rather support in opening a new investigation. And I dont belive any politician would touch a researcher who backed Armstrong's theory with a barge pole. Thinking "outside the box" in one thing, but thinking too far out the box only alienates JFK researchers. I also find it incredible that not all forum members are as discriminating as your self and treat every word Armstrong utters as the JFK assassination Gospel. Denis.

Edited by Denis Pointing
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  • 11 years later...
On 1/22/2008 at 8:59 PM, Robert Howard said:

To backtrack for a moment, before reading this you might want to go back to page 1 of this thread, and read Shanet Clark's post where he astutely mentions.....

Its interesting that the only two GP crypts are Oswald and Kennedy,

GP / FLOOR

and

GP / IDEAL

--------------also the recent thread about the 5412 committee had important crypts

RU/EPIA

RU/MSMA

RU/EPCR

RU/EPDA

RU/EPIC (CIA)

RU/EKPA (joint chiefs of staff)

for top secret 5412 and executive action limited release memos

between M. BUNDY FITZGERALD TAYLOR HELMS and MCCONE

Now flash forward to the ARRB's Final Report

In it we read......

Within the McCone papers, the Review Board noticed several file folders with notations or sheets indicating documents on a wide variety of subjects which are either missing or were destroyed. Of the missing or destroyed documents, two refer to the Kennedy assassination. One document from a 1963 listing is described as "Date of Meeting26 Nov; Participants DCI & Bundy; Subjects Covered Msg concerning Pres. Kennedy's assassination." The second document is described as "Date of Meeting19 May 64; Participants DCI, J.J. McCloy; Dinner at Residence Re: Oswald." This document is annotated "Destroyed 12872." CIA historians noted that both documents were missing when they reviewed the files in 1986. The Review Board designated as assassination records all relevant documents from the McCone files including the notations on the destroyed and missing records.

See

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/arrb98/part08.htm

Lastly, no one has ever been very willing to step up to the plate and speculate about Project Oswald, and bear in mind, this is sheer speculation......I insist that it be taken with a grain of salt.......

Q. What is the most puzzling and mystifying element of the Kennedy Assassination

A. While I again emphasize this is a very, very speculative comment, and should be taken as such......

The truly myriad amount of Oswald sightings, is at least one aspect of the post-assassination confusion that seems to be more than just "a lot of benign persons who really thought they saw Lee Harvey Oswald."

Some veteran researchers will postulate that some of these impersonations were deliberate attempts to sow confusion, as I believe is the case. The ultimate example would be the Bolton Ford Dealership incident, in which paperwork was actually signed with the name Oswald, while he was ostensibly in Russia. Other more obvious manipulations were the Peace March which started in Canada, and the Oswald in Algiers incident......

So.....is it possible that there was a component of Project Oswald that lent itself to the actualization of "creating" Oswald sightings in places he could not possibly have been with the deliberate goal of creating a mass of confusion......

I mention this not to promote the idea as a bona fide reality, but to get people to ponder the issue. We have it from a pretty good source that Ruth Paine is on record, according to researchers, as having requested information from the government about Lee Harvey Oswald possibly as early as 1957. George Michael Evica proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that our government has used religious groups as a cover for intelligence gathering, in this case the Quaker Young Friends Committee.

This is a really interesting older thread. Seems at that time they were only aware of two GP's, JFK and Oswald.

Oops.  Meant to link this in the CIA Codenames thread.

Edited by Ron Bulman
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