If the CIA was involved at all, in any way...

[Terry Mauro]

................Hunt, Morales and Robertson had huge emotional investments in the anti-Castro cause. Barnes hated Kennedy for blaming Dulles and Bissell for the Bay of Pigs. Barnes sent guns to anti-Trujillo forces in a diplomatic pouch and gave orders to the embassy not to tell the state department. Robertson, without receiving any orders to do so, bombed a British ship during the Guatemalan operation. These men were cowboys..............

__________________________

"Rip" Robertson was never a pilot, nor did he "sink a ship in Guatemala" (1954 Guatemaltazo)!!

Jerry Fred DeLarm was initially blamed for the sinking of the Brit "Coffee" merchantman, but in reality it was "Freddy" Shoup who dive-bombed the vessel and sent it to the bottom of the harbor-port at San Jose. Worse, this port is on the Pacific Ocean side of Guatemala, NOT the Caribbean side -- where a ship from Europe would be offloading, i.e., at either Puerto Barrios or Matias de Gálvez !!

As you will see below, when the "Soccer War" (El Salvador vs: Honduras) got underway during 1969, all of the "good ol' boys were back in action once again.

Chairs,

GPH

---------------------------------------------

http://www.statecraft.org/chapter5.html

On 18 June, Castillo Armas crossed into Guatemala from Honduras at the head of a force probably numbering less than 300 men. Although well-armed with Bren guns, mortars, and even flamethrowers, the unopposed "Liberation Army" halted just inside Guatemala in the town of Esquipulas, known then for its shrine to the Black Christ (and later also as a place of pilgrimage to honor the "Liberation").13

The Liberacionistas waited in Esquipulas while the real "war" was waged by American pilots and assorted mercenaries in aircraft. Those in charge included Whiting Willauer, a World War II veteran of irregular air warfare who had served as General Claire Chennault's deputy in the Flying Tigers. 14 At dawn on 18 June, a group of B-26 bombers and three P-47 fighters appeared above Guatemala City, dropped leaflets, and then began strafing and bombing runs.

Targets were selected largely for their psychological effect: military drill areas, ammunition dumps, oil storage tanks. One of the pilots, American Jerry DeLarm, later told NBC's John Chancellor how he "blew up the government oil reserves and subsequently when the political situation was up in the air and required decisive action-the main powder magazine of the army."15

Although unable to induce the Guatemalan army to fight, apart from some desultory antiaircraft fire, Arbenz held on to his precarious office for nine days. Castillo Armas and his "army" stayed put in Esquipulas unmolested, while U.S. air power continued a steady diet of harassing raids on the capital and the port of San José (sinking the British freighter Springfjord in the process).

Despite the lack of opposition in the air, the small "Liberation" air wing suffered from attrition in the first days of the operation, with several aircraft crash-landing (some sources refer to two having been shot down, although no casualties were ever acknowledged). CIA requests for replacements required a presidential decision, although U.S. Air Force planes were standing by in Nicaragua, apparently for just such a contingency. Rapidly "reflagged," the aircraft were soon in the air over Guatemala City keeping up the pressure.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_162.shtml

The rebel „air force“ came into existence during March 1954, when two C-47s were provided „on loan“ from Civilian Air Transport (CAT) – a CIA-owned airline – and another one purchased in Washington DC. All three Dakotas were flown to Managua, in Nicaragua, from where they were used for flying supply missions for the „Liberation Army“, as the CIA-controlled rebel force became known.

As next, a number of surplus combat and transport aircraft was acquired through a front company set up as „charitable foundation“ in Miami, including one Lockheed P-38 Lightning, a Cessna 140 and 180 each, and a Consolidated PBY-5A flying boat. The aircraft were flown to a small airfield in Honduras, and the CIA then began searching for pilots, eventually recruiting Fred Sherwood, former US Air Attaché with the US Embassy in Guatemala and ex-UFC pilot, as the chief of the new force. Sherwood was soon joined by two other pilots, Fred DeLarm and Carlos Cheeseman, both veteran Republic P-47 Thunderbolt-pilots from the Pacific theatre in WWII.

..........................................................

Meanwhile, Guatemala was put under a sea blockade by the US Navy warships. Already in May, the USN was searching for SS Alfhem, a ship loaded with Czech weapons for the Guatemalan Army that reached Puerto Barrios nevertheless. Subsequently, the blockade was improved and the Government found it impossible to import any kind of weapons or ammunition: even if the Army managed to round up many of subversive elements, the net around President Arbenz was becoming tighter.

..........................................................

The situation worsened through the 28th: in one instance a single strafing attack by a FAG AT-6 scrambled from Puerto Barrios to intercept a rebel Cessna 180, was sufficient to scatter a whole rebel column. Nevertheless, the Liberation Air Force then staged its best-known operation of this war, when the battered – but repaired once again – P-38M, flown by Ferdinand Schoup, attacked the British ship SS Springfjord that carried a load of weapons (including rumoured ex-Czech Spitfires), in the port of San Jose. Springfjord was sunk, but the ship carried a load of coffee and no weapons at all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_156.shtml

El Salvador vs Honduras, 1969: The 100-Hour War

By Tom Cooper with March Coelich

........ By the morning of 17 July 1969, the Salvadoran and Honduran Army troops became entangled in a meeting engagement between Nueva Ocotopeque and Santa Rosa de Copan. The Salvadorans advanced in good spirits, but Honduran Guardia de Honor Battalion – readily supported by Corsairs from Toncontin and La Mesa – put up spirited resistance.

........ Varela’s loss hit the FAS particularly hard. The air force was already short on experienced pilots. Even if a number of experienced reserve fliers was mobilized, there was not enough pilots for all Mustangs and Corsairs, and consequently El Salvador had to hire five mercenaries – including Jerry DeLarm and “Red” Gray. The later were to prove not especially eager to engage Honduran Corsairs in air combat: in fact, according to surviving FAS veterans, both DeLarm and Gray preferred to climb and escape when encountering FAH fighters – often enough leaving behind Salvadoran pilots they should have protected.

_____________________________________

Welcome back, Gerry!.....thanks for the above input. While you were gone there was some buzz about some CIA dudes who might have been at the Ambassador hotel the night RFK died. Could you comment on the photos of them in the Hotel and what you recall you were doing that night as an LAPD man. Thanks much in advance. Peter

--------------------------

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry85319

Welcome back, Gerry!.....thanks for the above input. While you were gone there was some buzz about some CIA dudes who might have been at the Ambassador hotel the night RFK died. Could you comment on the photos of them in the Hotel and what you recall you were doing that night as an LAPD man. Thanks much in advance. Peter

-------------------------------------------

Peter:

So as to save you from drudging thru all of my previous postings, slithering thru the Google crap, and worse yet -- the linear miles of Khazar Weberman's fantasy prolix ["Noduroids"]; I will attempt a clear, short and concise response ?? Yupp !!

From 1968 thru 1970, I worked part-time as a Special Agent for the "Special Problems Unit", City of Los Angeles. The "Unit" was the creation of the then Mayor Sam Yorty, and "belonged to" his Staff Intelligence Squad, which worked out of City Hall -- rather than at the L.A.P.D. Parker Center Police Headquarters -- and reported only to him, not to Chief Tom Reddin nor his successor Gates.

Officially, we worked for the Recreation & Parks Dept. and were paid out of their funds. We always went on patrol in a supervisor Sergeant's stationwagon, rather than in the 4-door "Adam" black & whites (2-man patrol "Basic" cars). The TV series "Adam 12" taught viewers that "One-Adam-12" signified that:

"(1) One" as a prefix meant "Central Division", and this was the #12 vehicle on that shift.

I always worked out of Hollenbeck Division (East Los Angeles), and prefix assigned was "4-Adam, 1 thru 12" for the sedans, while the Sergeant's wagons were 4-L-10, 4-L-20, 4-L-30. [The wagons carried a "mini-command post" in the rear compartment, with maps, riot equipment, and had four seperate VHF radios.]

The now famous author Joe Wambaugh was just finishing his first novel ("The New Centurions") whilst he worked as a Robbery/Homicide Detective on the 2nd floor of the station-house during those days.

Late afternoon, June 5th 1968, I was working with "Metro" and "Gang Squad" a few blocks from the Lincoln Heights Jail -- which required cooperation with Ramparts Division next door. We expected yet another "Chicano" gang shootout that night, having been tipped off by youngsters at a city recreation center the night before; either because they wanted no part of it -- or didn't want to lose a family member of friend, which was frequently the end result.

Just after sundown, the radio beeped and the dispatcher advised my Sergeant to "...have the S.P.U. Special Agent call the Station from the nearest "Gamewell".....and not by payphone...!!

[Gamewell, Inc. is the manufacturer of the steel police telephone boxes sited on every 4th square-block throughout the city.]

I opened the box with my Gamewell Key, called the station -- and the Captain told me to have the Sgt. drive me in the "L" wagon to a popular ("Police") Diner, and "meet" with a Sergeant in an "Adam Unit".

I thought it was about an "IAD" (Internal Affairs) "beef" that I was previously involved in as a witness. Climbed into the 4-door sedan, and the Sergeant radioed in as "4-Xray-1", and advising that we were going "Code-7" [Off Duty]. ("Xray" signified an "Extra/Unassigned Roving or backup Unit")

Next thing I know we are cruising up the Hollywood Freeway northwest-bound. Once back down on the streets, I asked the Sergeant where we were going, and especially WHY we were in Hollywood Division ?? He answered that we had "a meet" at the Ambassador Hotel (which I had never heard of before !!). I later learned that we were about two blocks from the hotel when we ran into a bit of a traffic jam, and spotted numerous "blue-cross" traffic directing cops and "motors" (Motorcycle Units).

Just then the radio dispatcher/girl ordered ".....all units switch to Tac-2 !!" [Tac-2 is the "Tactical Radio Channel used for private or emergency conversations]. On "Tac-2" we heard: "ALL UNITS...ALL UNITS...and Hollywood...Ramparts...and Valley supervisors....shots fired...shots fired...multiple victims down....use caution...plain-clothes officers in the area...!! "All Units...shots fired inside Ambassador Hotel...approach with caution....I say again....approach with caution....both uniformed and plain-clothes officers in the area....unknown the number of shooters.... !!"

The Sergeant slammed on the brakes, went "Code-3" [turned on the lights and siren] -- did a 180, and we sped back towards the Freeway. As I stared at him, he turned slightly and yelled: "...This ain't our call...we are outahere...!!" As we raced back towards East L.A., we observed dozens of police vehicles "Code-3" and barreling in the opposite direction -- both on the Freeway and the city streets.

Within a block from Hollenbeck Station, the Sergeant said that he was dropping me here, that I could walk to my car -- and that he was going to Parker Center (Downtown LAPD/HQ). Climbed into my sedan, headed for home, turned on the CB Radio to the R.E.A.C.T. Channel #9 to listen in for any word on what the hell was going on in Hollywood. The only advisories from the R.E.A.C.T. Monitor was to warn everybody to stay away from the Ambassador Hotel in Hollywood.

Half an hour later, I walked into my apartment to find my wife standing in front of the TV with her mouth agape and white as a sheet. Two minutes later I asked her to calm down, go to the kitchen, pour me a super-size Whiskey Sour while I changed clothes. Tip-toed upstairs and unracked my riot/shotgun and a bandoleer of "00" Buck ammunition, got all of my 6-round speedloaders (.357 Magnum revolver), my .45 Colt automatic with extra magazines -- put everything in a parachute kit-bag and went back downstairs, where I sat with my back to the wall.

A brother called and said he was coming over armed, and would park his car down the street, call from a payphone to alert me to his imminent arrival -- and would check out the neighborhood first.

Around sunup I called my MK/CHAOS duty officer, and was advised to immediately check out the Sirhan residence, which I did.

Shane is in error, none of the photos that I have seen so far match any "Company" dudes that I came across over the years, but then again -- I haven't seen his film yet.

Later, its been a long day for me (since 5 PM yesterday)

GPH

_____________________________________

**************************************************

"...none of the photos that I have seen so far match any "Company" dudes that I came across over the years, but then again -- I haven't seen his film yet."

Thanks for showing up. We thought you'd kicked the bucket or something.

[Pat Speer]

Gerry, you may very well be right about Robertson. I'm pretty sure I read that he was responsible for the bombing but it didn't make a whole lot of sense seeing as he was in charge of PM operations and was not himself a pilot. Was DeLarm working under him? Perhaps what I read was that Robertson was held accountable for the bombing, and only inferred that he'd performed the bombing. In any regard, would you agree with me that the agents I named were on the wild side, and not the "yes sir, anything you say, sir" types?

As far as your work in L.A., I was reading recently (remember, I'm a book reader) about a series of bombings in L.A. from the mid 60's to mid 70's. These bombings were almost exclusively against leftist targets, and were apparently not investigated with the full force of the LAPD. Were you aware of any militant right-wing groups in L.A. during this period? Besides the Minutemen, of course. Were any of them affiliated with any religious groups?

[Cliff Varnell]

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

If you define "the CIA" as Richard Helms and James J. Angleton, which is as high as it

went, imo. The guys with the most experience at over-throwing heads of state would

obviously be CIA -- indeed, Edward Lansdale, David Phillips, and David Morales.

But I don't buy the idea that any particular institution or standing entity "did-it."

The primary goal of the JFK assassination was to establish a pre-text to invade Cuba.

All other agendas were incidental, imo.

That Johnson wanted to avoid being dumped from the ticket and face investigation in

the Bobby Baker scandal was incidental to the murder of JFK.

That Sam Giancana wanted to get Bobby Kennedy off his back -- incidental.

That the Texas oilmen wanted to protect the oil depletion allowance -- incidental.

That Hoover personally detested JFK and feared being fired in the 2nd JFK Adm. -- incidental.

That the military hawks wanted a more aggressive policy in Vietnam -- incidental.

What all the perps and associates had in common was a desire to invade Cuba.

That might not have been the primary motive of those who faced legal problems in a

a 2nd JFK Adm., like Giancana or Johnson, but it was the motive that all shared.

[Ashton Gray]

The primary goal of the JFK assassination was to establish a pre-text to invade Cuba.

For whom "to invade Cuba?" 'Cause after all that gore—"they" forgot to.

Ashton

Edited December 17, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Cliff Varnell]

The primary goal of the JFK assassination was to establish a pre-text to invade Cuba.

For whom "to invade Cuba?"

I should have phrased that with more precision:

The primary goal of the JFK assassination was to establish a pre-text for a military invasion

of Cuba.

Are you familiar with the Operation Northwoods documents, Ashton?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

James Bamford's BODY OF SECRETS (pg 84), emphasis added:

On February 20, 1962, [John]Glenn was to lift off from Cape Canaveral, Florida,

on his historic journey. The flight was to carry the banner of America's virtues of

truth, freedom, and democracy into orbit high over the planet. But [Chairman of the

JCS] Lemnitzer and his Chiefs had a different idea. They proposed to [Operation

Mongoose chief] Lansdale that, should the rocket explode and kill Glenn, "the objective

is to provide irrevocable proof that...the fault lies with the Communists et al Cuba [sic]."

This would be accomplished, Lemnitzer continued, "by manufacturing various pieces of

evidence which would prove electronic interference on the part of the Cubans." Thus, as

NASA prepared to send the first American into space, the Joint Chiefs of Staff were

preparing to use John Glenn's possible death as a pre-text to launch a war.

Robert McNamara shot down Operation Northwoods in March of 1962, but the super-hawks

were persistent.

BODY OF SECRETS (pg 87), Lemnitzer wrote in a memorandum to McNamara,

April 10, 1962, emphasis added:

The Joint Chiefs of Staff believe that the Cuban problem must be solved in

the near future...Further, they see no prospect of early success in overthrowing the

present communist regime either as a result of internal uprising or external political,

economic or psychological pressures. Accordingly they believe that military intervention

by the United States will be required to overthrow the present communist regime...The

Joint Chiefs of Staff believe that the United States can undertake military intervention in

Cuba without risk of general war. They also believe that the intervention can be

accomplished rapidly enough to minimize communist opportunities for solicitation of U.N.

action.

It was the thinking of the super-hawks -- LeMay, Lemnitzer, Lansdale -- that as long as

they could produce "irrevocable proof" that Fidel was a very bad actor, an invasion of

Cuba could commence "without risk of general war."

'Cause after all that gore—"they" forgot to.

Ashton

No, someone "forgot" to ace the patsy right after the assassination. The plot ultimately

failed in its primary objective because the oh-so-carefully sheep-dipped patsy survived

to be captured alive, protesting his innocence.

The captured patsy demolished the "irrevocable proof" standard required for hostile

action by the US military.

Besides, it isn't a mystery who "they" were, is it?

Start with the Generals "L" -- LeMay, Lemnitzer, and Lansdale.

We have our high CIA perps -- Helms and Angleton.

We have the CIA coup-masters who worked alongside Lansdale in the nuts-'n-bolts

orchestration of the assassination -- David Phillips (in charge of sheep-dipping the

patsies -- plural) and David Morales (probably handled the shooters and designed

the ambush).

Hoover had all kinds of ginned up intel purporting Oswald trips to Cuba.

Texas oilmen Hunt and Murchison owned the Dal-Tex Building, which was never searched.

Ruby's connections lead back to the Chicago Outfit and Sam Giancana.

The assassination was organized around a drastic change in US policy toward Cuba -- not

around the individual agendas of the various players.

That's imho, a course.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

IF, in fact, Helms was the orchestrator of the assassination, and McCone was cut out of the loop, what would be Helms' motivation?

Isn't it obvious after reading SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TALKED?

It's really quite simple -- kill Kennedy, blame Castro, invade Cuba.

The collateral damage of good research (as well as direct dis/mis-info) is to make the case

appear far more complex than the evidence indicates.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Stan Wilbourne]

Cliff, throw Allen Dulles in there. For whom did he work, really? And, all the names you mentioned were loyal to Dulles.

I believe all it took was one conversation between one (very rich and powerful) man and Dulles and the whole thing swung into being.

Again, for whom did Allen Dulles work?

Terry said it very well above. Who does the CIA really represent? Who does the U.S. military really represent?

For the extremely wealthy there are no consequences - except, that is, between them and God.

I don't believe now that it really had anything to do with Cuba. It was a battle for control of the government - Cuba was a backdrop just like a lot of the other stuff. JFK was too smart for them, and they (the eastern established ruling class) would not allow everything they had to be taken away. Not one inch. Jack, Bobby, and then Ted? No way.

Also, I think part of this was personal. JFK was slaughtered in public. There were so many other ways they could've taken him out. He dared to take on the powers that be in a very reckless way -- very much like he lived the rest of his life.

The Rockefellers

The Morgans

The Lodges

Dean Acheson

Walt Rostow

The Bundys

Bankers and the War Party.

That's where I am today. FWIW.

[Michael Hogan]

The primary goal of the JFK assassination was to establish a pre-text to invade Cuba.

All other agendas were incidental, imo.

That the military hawks wanted a more aggressive policy in Vietnam -- incidental.

Arthur Schlesinger Jr., A Thousand Days p. 338:

....By now the Pentagon was developing what would become what would become its standard line in Southeast Asia--unrelenting opposition to limited intervention in Southeast Asia--unrelenting opposition except on the impossible condition that the President agree in advance to every further step they deemed sequential, including, on occasion, nuclear bombing of Hanoi and even Peking. At one National Security Council meeting, General Lemnitzer outlined the processes by which each American action would provoke a Chinese counteraction, provoking in return an even more drastic American response. He concluded: "If we are given the right to use nuclear weapons, we can guarantee victory." The President sat firmly rubbing his upper molar, saying nothing. After a moment someone said, "Mr. President, perhaps you could have the General explain to us what he means by victory."

Roger Hilsman, To Move a Nation p. 527:

After President Kennedy's death the pressure [Vietnam] was renewed. General Curtis LeMay, Chief of Staff for the Air Force, was particularly vigorous in advocating the bombing of North Viet Nam. "We are swatting flies," LeMay said, "when we should be going after the manure pile." General Thomas S. Power said that with conventional bombs alone the Strategic Air command could "pulverize North Viet Nam," and he made a special trip to Washington to plead the case for bombing not only North Viet Nam but the Viet Cong and their bases in South Viet Nam.

Jim Garrison, A Heritage of Stone, p.209

But Kennedy was different: he was a President preparing for peace, not war, and he was moving too fast. There had been his refusal to approve American air support at the Bay of Pigs and his refusal to respond to the Cuban missile crisis by bombing Cuba. There had been the signing of the nuclear test ban treaty on September 1, ordered by him over the objection of the Joint Chiefs. Then there had been his initiation of dtente with Cuba and Russia. Now he was blocking the new war in Vietnam.

The Cental Intelligence Agency handled all of the details.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Michael Hogan

[Ashton Gray]

Cliff, throw Allen Dulles in there. For whom did he work, really? And, all the names you mentioned were loyal to Dulles.

I believe all it took was one conversation between one (very rich and powerful) man and Dulles and the whole thing swung into being.

Again, for whom did Allen Dulles work?

You speak sooth, beardless youth.

Terry said it very well above. Who does the CIA really represent? Who does the U.S. military really represent?

Out of the mouth of babes. So to speak. Let no one accuse her of being just another pretty face. (When she ain't "dittoing." I can say that with aplomb because she isn't close enough to punch me.)

For the extremely wealthy there are no consequences - except, that is, between them and God.

I don't believe now that it really had anything to do with Cuba.

Of course it didn't. Never had diddly to do with Cuba. Nor was the Bay of Pigs "invasion" for any of the reasons the CIA ever trotted out. Nor was there ever any CIA program to assassinate Castro. All long-after-the-fact dog-and-pony-show patented CIA limited hangout BS to cover what they really had been doing. If anybody thinks one syllable in this paragraph is sarcastic or facetious in the slightest, better pause and think again. Real hard.

It was a battle for control of the government - Cuba was a backdrop just like a lot of the other stuff. JFK was too smart for them, and they (the eastern established ruling class) would not allow everything they had to be taken away. Not one inch. Jack, Bobby, and then Ted? No way.

Also, I think part of this was personal. JFK was slaughtered in public. There were so many other ways they could've taken him out. He dared to take on the powers that be in a very reckless way -- very much like he lived the rest of his life.

The Rockefellers

The Morgans

The Lodges

Dean Acheson

Walt Rostow

The Bundys

Bankers and the War Party.

That's where I am today. FWIW.

Ahhhhhhh, I love the smell of CIA disinformation going up in smoke like a tire fire in the morning.

You the man, Stan.

Ashton

Edited December 18, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Terry Mauro]

Cliff, throw Allen Dulles in there. For whom did he work, really? And, all the names you mentioned were loyal to Dulles.

I believe all it took was one conversation between one (very rich and powerful) man and Dulles and the whole thing swung into being.

Again, for whom did Allen Dulles work?

Terry said it very well above. Who does the CIA really represent? Who does the U.S. military really represent?

For the extremely wealthy there are no consequences - except, that is, between them and God.

I don't believe now that it really had anything to do with Cuba. It was a battle for control of the government - Cuba was a backdrop just like a lot of the other stuff. JFK was too smart for them, and they (the eastern established ruling class) would not allow everything they had to be taken away. Not one inch. Jack, Bobby, and then Ted? No way.

Also, I think part of this was personal. JFK was slaughtered in public. There were so many other ways they could've taken him out. He dared to take on the powers that be in a very reckless way -- very much like he lived the rest of his life.

The Rockefellers

The Morgans

The Lodges

Dean Acheson

Walt Rostow

The Bundys

Bankers and the War Party.

That's where I am today. FWIW.

***********************************************

The Rockefellers

The Morgans

The Lodges

Dean Acheson

Walt Rostow

The Bundys

And, lest we not forget those glad-handing, back-stabbers, the Harrimans.

"Bankers and the War Party."

Probably where the term "War Chest" originated. JMHO

You know, it never ceases to amaze me of the lengths people will go to in their efforts to continually skirt the issue of naming the REAL perps, the REAL people who had the supreme and uncontested monumental control of the financial assets SO VERY NECESSARY in guaranteeing that they would never be held accountable, nor a bloody trail EVER be allowed traceable back to their financial establishments and houses of the holy. It literally boggles the mind [at least, my mind], at how even after all we've discovered regarding Operation Mockingbird, which is something I've been screaming about for years, and to which I'll be eternally grateful to Simkin for putting a label on, that this unholy alliance of corporatchiks, military aparatchiks, pseudo- Federale Banking aparatchiks, are allowed to continually conglomerate their assets unquestioned, unsuspected, unaccountable, uncontested, and at most times appear to be revered and absolved of any egregious wrong-doing or subsequent agrievances they're allowed to inflict on the general populace, albeit unnoticed by the dumbed-down citizenry they've manipulated and hypnotized into a state of mass lethargy and ineptitude [it's Super [stupid] Bowl season, again].

Ah, but let me caution you on the better side of prudence Stan, lest you risk being labelled as merely another hysterical, hallucinating, malcontented miscreant, reprobate of a CT'er, such as myself. I, adamantly refuse to be pidgeon-holed or stifled into a politically correct, euphemism- spouting, semantically adept [verbal trickery], double-talking syncophant, just because the sheeple and the ostriches find my "point-blank" analyses and attack of this case to be somehow distasteful, or harsh to their finer sensibilities. Henceforth, by validating my views, you make alot of enemies, my friend. As for me, I don't give a rat's ass, nor do I have that much to lose. But for you, any risk or loss of credibility may not be conducive to someone who may be the sole support or breadwinner of his family. Therefore, proceed at your own risk. And, thank you for your kind words.

Ter

Edited December 17, 2006 by Terry Mauro

[Terry Mauro]

"(When she ain't "dittoing." I can say that with aplomb because she isn't close enough to punch me.)"

Yeah, and I bet you're just so "ecstatic" that they got rid of the "color coding" so now I can't distinguish my answers to the "color-coded" comments, either. Aren't ya?

Remember, I was raised with brothers who wanted to make sure I could take care of myself. Especially, due to my "UNBRIDLED LOUD-MOUTHED" way of expressing [my] opinions, AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT, Pal!

[Cliff Varnell]

And, lest we not forget those glad-handing, back-stabbers, the Harrimans.

Bingo! And let's not forget another little name that fits in there -- Joe Kennedy.

Joe Kennedy and W. Averell Harriman were pillars of the Eastern Establishment.

"Bankers and the War Party."

Probably where the term "War Chest" originated. JMHO

You know, it never ceases to amaze me of the lengths people will go to in their efforts to

continually skirt the issue of naming the REAL perps, the REAL people who had the supreme

and uncontested monumental control of the financial assets SO VERY NECESSARY

that they would never be held accountable, nor a bloody trail EVER be allowed traceable

back to their financial establishments and houses of the holy.

This is where the Carl Oglesby Yankee-Cowboy dichotomy applies, imo.

John Kennedy was a product of the Eastern Establishment. W. Averell Harriman was

the architect of State Dept policy in Southeast Asia -- got his way in Laos, and he got

his way in the overthrow of Diem in Vietnam.

W. Averell Harriman was a man used to getting his way. As long as he continued

to get his way I doubt that he'd want JFK murdered.

But, Terry, I'm open minded. If you can make a case for John Kennedy getting into

hot water with Harriman in 1963, I'd like to see it.

[Cliff Varnell]

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

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The CIA is the armed forces, police officers, goon-squad, and/or private security services of the Old Guard, the Eastern Establishment, the Aristocratic Blue-Bloods, the financial houses and/or holding companies, aka banks, of the Anglo-American power bases located on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean and which comprise those districts subject to the prevailing markets of New York City and London, and dictate who's to win and who's to lose, who's to live and who's to die. It's been carved in stone that way since the first money-lenders hit these shores in the 1500's, and started buying up the place with beads.

What about the oil industry?

What about the illicit drug trade?

The CIA has never operated in those people's interests?

The great thing about Oglesby's Yankee/Cowboy model is that one realizes that

"the CIA" was not a monolithic entity, but was indeed riven with factions, some

of which were aligned with the Eastern Establishment Yankees, and some aligned

with the oil industry/aeronautic operators like Hunt or Hughes -- the Cowboys.

I'll argue the "conservative" Cowboys killed Kennedy.

Edited December 19, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

I don't believe now that it really had anything to do with Cuba.

Of course it didn't. Never had diddly to do with Cuba. Nor was the Bay of Pigs "invasion" for any of the reasons the CIA ever trotted out. Nor was there ever any CIA program to assassinate Castro. All long-after-the-fact dog-and-pony-show patented CIA limited hangout BS to cover what they really had been doing. If anybody thinks one syllable in this paragraph is sarcastic or facetious in the slighest, better pause and think again. Real hard.

And when you're done thinking real hard about all that please note that I based my case

on PENTAGON documents. I hope no one here is denying the super aggressive posture

toward Cuba betrayed by Generals Lansdale, Lemnitzer, and LeMay.

I love it when people pooh-pooh my argument without ever addressing a single point I

raise.

Operation Northwoods connected to the CIA through Lansdale.

I'm looking forward to hearing an actual argument -- as opposed to righteously repeated

conclusions -- as to why the Eastern Establishment wanted to kill one of their own.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Michael Hogan]

And when you're done thinking real hard about all that please note that I based my case

on PENTAGON documents. I hope no one here is denying the super aggressive posture

toward Cuba betrayed by Generals Lansdale, Lemnitzer, and LeMay.

I love it when people pooh-pooh my argument without ever addressing a single point I

raise.

Cliff,

I addressed your claim about Vietnam being incidental and you didn't even mention it.

I do think you make many good points, but Cuba was a relative drop in the bucket to these guys. They wanted to nuke

the Soviets and/or Red China. If Cuba could provide a pretext for a larger conflict with the Soviets, all well and good.

The JCS was much more concerned with Mao Tse-tung and Kruschev than they ever were with Castro.

To claim that Vietnam was incidental without presenting a strong case weakens your overall argument, in my opinion.