Trygve V. Jensen Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) Thank you once again. That helps. A lot. 1963. When only have had the time to dip down into the surface of the ocean, that this subject is, - I probably only have read , or re-read what would amount to one drop of it. A number of details rings a bell, - but getting an overview of this puzzle, will take time. Every single time additional inputs, - from such knowledgeable people as you, - is received, - - - time and energy is saved/spared. So being grateful is in order. Only this last post of yours, - will most certainly initiate searching-frenzies , - when the time and energy is available. The passage of time, - and fading of memory, - makes one uncertain of even whether one once knew some things, - re-learning them, - or if they are new alltogether. It really doesn't matter. Bells ring, regarding the activity at the house, - some of the names mentioned, - the hierarchy within , - the undercover-initiative to expose arms-purchasing , - the Odio-issue, - and so forth. But the ringing is so faint. One thing is details,- but seeing them in different contexts, - trying to get some sort of overview of certain areas, - is another matter. Maybe there is a limit of how much one can simplify something being this complex of nature. Analyzing everything drain energy. I.e. - every time an action is taken, one try to see it from all possible perspectives, - - understanding the purpose / intention / reason, behind it. Like the action taken, - writing a report, for instance. I see now , it would seem logical, - with the examples given of said reasons, ---- why the FBI would approach him. Seen from the perspective of the Bureau. They seem to have collective weight, - sitting here and reading about them. Additionally answering my question of "common practice" in part. Can't remember that it (the house) could have been under surveillance, - but as I'm writing this, - I struggle to form sentences. For all I know, - it is mentioned in this thread earlier. Time for sleep. Probably dreaming about Orcarberrio's own initiative to the February 10th, - interview, the purpose thereof (trying to be objective, is a challenge, - being a subject) --- which role he had at that point in time, --------- as well as tracking down his maybe alive daughter, - I seem to remember reading about, - who would have been born in 1960/61. Edited April 13, 2018 by Trygve V. Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said: There are a number of points that might have led the FBI to interview Orcarberrio during 1963, related both the the people involved with the House on Harlandale, to weapons purchasing activities in Dallas and after the assassination in regard to both reports about the house and Oswald and issues like Sylvia Odio's statements. Larry, I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. It seems like there was a push by the anti-Castro Cuban exile community to establish a presence in the Dallas area in the May-June, 1963 time frame. JURE, DRE, Alpha-66. Do you see any significance to this? Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 I suspect some of it, particularly for those exiles who wanted to continue military action against Castro, had to do with the increasing pressure that was being placed on them by the FBI, ATF, INS etc to interdict operations. That was especially true in Miami and south Florida and there was escalating surveillance by several law enforcement agencies not to mention the new Cuban Intelligence Service operated by JM/WAVE. New Orleans had been the first fall back position, with efforts to set up training camps there, but based on informants in Miami, several of those operations were exposed and the crack downs began to make that area less attractive. What we don't really know is whether or not there were efforts to regroup in the Texas port cities such as Houston or Galveston, Dallas may seem to stand out because we simply know more of what was going on based on information revealed in the various JFK investigations. Another factor in the whole thing was the simple fact that the Kennedy administration was putting lots of support and lots of money behind the off shore Artime/AMWORLD project, essentially freezing out groups they had been supporting, such as DRE. The independent groups were becoming even more stressed for funds - that's why I write about the whole context changing in 1963, between insiders and outsiders. Bottom line was that one apparent source of funds were the ultra right, big money oil and ranching people in Texas - some of the first to have committed money to covert CIA ops back in 1960. No doubt the exiles thought it might be a good place to raise money - although I don't think that really worked out for them, they were certainly trying to get money out of Texas though, that's clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 8 hours ago, Larry Hancock said: Bottom line was that one apparent source of funds were the ultra right, big money oil and ranching people in Texas Ah yes, money. That makes sense. That and politics, I suppose. For some reason Dallas seemed to be a black hole for extremist political thought. What was it JFK said, "We're heading into nut country today"? Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 On 4/13/2018 at 1:37 PM, Steve Thomas said: Larry, I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. It seems like there was a push by the anti-Castro Cuban exile community to establish a presence in the Dallas area in the May-June, 1963 time frame. JURE, DRE, Alpha-66. Do you see any significance to this? Steve Thomas The OSWALD Project started just around that time... and if Alpha-66 was truly run by the CIA... Tosh talks of visiting the 1026 safe house April - June 1963.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) There is no HUSPETH in Oak Cliff... but there is an ELSBETH... Trying to find out what the "Hernandez Group of Alpha-66" was... as it seems He/They ran the safehouse behind Beckley https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/0uTDOAkK_W8 The FBI interviewed every Cuban they could find in Sulfur, Oklahoma. They found a man named Miguel L. DeSocarraz living in the Oklahoma Veterans Hospital, who said that on Sunday, November 17, he'd been visited by a number of people in a older, cream-colored station wagon. This group included Manolito Rodriguez, akaManuel Rodriguez Occarberro, his wife and young child, two other men, their wives, and a girl of 13 or 14. DeSoccaraz studied the photograph of Oswald printed in the Daily Oklahoman, and stated that Rodriguez "possibly did resemble Oswald," but not identically. "Rodriguez cannot speak English. He resides at 1208 Huspeth (Oak Cliff) Dallas, Texas, with a telephone number FR4-5923 . . . Rodriguez is employed as a welder in Dallas." Coincidentally, Rodriguez, born in Cuba in 1928 and living in the US since 1960, was in 1963 the President of the Dallas Chapter of Alpha-66, the anti-Castro paramilitary group based in Miami. Rodriguez told the FBI (in Spanish) that Alpha-66 held meetings at 3126 Hollandale in Oak Cliff, and that he had no contact "with any American persons or other persons" concerning arms purchases. The CIA sent a teletype to the Miami FBI office that an informant called "'D' reports one Manuel Rodriguez (matronym unknown) living in Dallas, Texas, was known to be violently anti-President Kennedy." The Secret Service also received this report and rather belatedly issued a Protective Research Memorandum onManuel Rodriguez Occarberro, describing him as "violently anti-Kennedy." On the evening following the assassination, an informant reported to Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers that Oswald had been seen attending meetings of the Alpha-66 group at "3126 Hollandale" in Oak Cliff. Some speculate this could actually have been John Thomas Masen, who was linked to this group by ATF agent Frank Ellsworth, and who bore some resemblance to Oswald in 1963, as seen in film stills (or video captures?) posted to alt.conspiracy.jfk by John Woods II. The CIA -- Alpha-66's sponsor -- denied that any such address existed. The FBI revealed in 1975 that the actual address at 3128 Harlandale Street; it had been vacated about a week before the assassination. The Bureau turned up 1963 Alpha-66 fundraising letters mailed from this address signed by "Manuel Rodriguez, General Secretary of Alpha-66" (CIA 88-27; Weberman Web site:http://www.weberman.com/nodules/nodule16.htm). Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Thanks David. I must admit that Rodriguez looks like the guy in the brown sport jacket sitting in the front row in Veciana's pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) On 6/29/2018 at 1:21 PM, David Boylan said: Thanks David. I must admit that Rodriguez looks like the guy in the brown sport jacket sitting in the front row in Veciana's pictures. Yet Evica is referring to John Thomas Masen - who MAY be this man in one of the photos - front row "And We are all Mortal" p83 https://drive.google.com/file/d/13UcmmGkJpUIaFgMqn-XByNF0AKArhSWd/view Ellsworth revealed to reporter Russell that reports of Oswald with alleged Minutemen at a Dallas area rifle range were actually of his look-alike with known Minutemen friends. According to Ellsworth, he verified these rifle range appearances with his Other Oswald. Warren Report supporters have challenged Commission critics to come up with a name to match the many credible sightings of a ‘second Oswald,’ and now a name and identity can be supplied. And the most crucial sightings: the rifle range observations, where the Oswald double fired an Italian carbine and in the company of others, can now be corroborated. Ellsworth revealed that his Oswald double had been charged with a violation of the National Firearms Act and was released (after raising bond) on a routine okay from agent Ellsworth, the arresting Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms officer responsible for the investigation. The April 16 1964, Commission memo cites ‘the arrest of a local gun shop owner,’ and CD 853 verifies that arrest on National Firearms Act violations. Ellsworth described his covert Treasury Department inquiry into the ‘Other Oswald’ to Village Voice interviewer Dick Russell, asserting his look-alike and Oswald were exact duplicates of each other: weight, height, face, and hair, ‘identical twins.’ Ellsworth confirmed he had been tracking his ‘Oswald’ twin undercover, leading the look-alike to believe that Ellsworth was a criminal involved in Mexican smuggling. This ‘Oswald’ was a right-winger and a member of the Minutemen, according to Treasury Agent Frank Ellsworth, and was eventually convicted on a gun violation. Ultimately released, the Oswald double has remained in sometime contact with Ellsworth since 1964, reported Dick Russell. The April 16 Commission memo summarized Ellsworth's testimony: An organization known as the Minutemen is the right-wing group in Dallas most likely to have been associated with any effort to assassinate the President. As a result of (his] undercover activities Agent Ellsworth learned that Manuel O. Rodriguez ...was attempting to purchase arms in Dallas (from a Minutemen-associated gunsmith] for Alpha 66. Rodriguez is also a member of the DRE. Though Ellsworth did not make the final identification of his ‘Other Oswald’ to Russell by name, Ellsworth's description and the known facts about the arrested gunsmith cited in CD 853 dovetail exactly, and to reporter Russell, Frank Ellsworth finally admitted that Russell was pressing him for information which could jeopardize both himself and his ‘agency.’ He suggested that if Russell found his Oswald twin, the link between Ellsworth's gunsmith and the look-alike would be readily apparent; when Russell interviewed the gunsmith he found 84 a ‘resemblance.’ According to CD 853, Treasury Agent Frank Ellsworth had gathered evidence against John Thomas Masen... Dallas, Texas, for violation of National Firearms Act. Masen informed Ellsworth that (Manuel Orcarberro] Rodriguez...had made purchases from him; that they (Alpha 66] presently had a large cache of arms somewhere in Dallas...John Thomas Masen, whose history matches precisely the Ellsworth ‘Oswald’ description. And who is Manuel Rodriguez? Rodriguez was the head of the Dallas Alpha 66, the anti- Castro Cuban organization that met at 3126 Harlendale Avenue, reputedly the home of Jorge Salazar. Rodriguez (also known to federal authorities as Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro) was under investigation after the Kennedy assassination by the Protective Research Division of the Secret Service, that branch charged with probing possible threats to the life of the president. Rodriguez was known to be violently anti-Castro and to have made anti-Kennedy statements after the Bay of Pigs defeat. Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Hoping for some help... Found a heavily redacted CIA pdf on Alpha 66... Could "HERNANDEZ" of the Alpha 66 Hernandez group be FATHER LEON HERNANDEZ? p12 http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/Alpha-66-1-CIA.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 4 hours ago, David Josephs said: David, CD 853 page 2 of SS Protective Research Referral Memorandum. Description provided by Immigration and Naturalization Service https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11250#relPageId=7&tab=page A physical description provided, said that Orcarberro was 69” tall, and weighed 145 lbs. He had brown hair and brown eyes. FBI Report of Wallace Heitman May 26, 1964 CD 1085 page 223. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=223&tab=page page 5 of Heitman's memo. “Rodriguez advised that he is 5'11” in height, weighs 158 lbs, has brown hair. It was observed that Rodriguez wears dark glasses and has a dark complexion” I never have been able to reconcile these two descriptions, which is why I didn't mention Orcarberro as possibly being the man in Bart's Alpha 66 picture here in this thread. Plus, I personally don't think the ears or the balding forehead match very well. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: I never have been able to reconcile these two descriptions, which is why I didn't mention Orcarberro as possibly being the man in Bart's Alpha 66 picture here in this thread. Plus, I personally don't think the ears or the balding forehead match very well. I believe I made a mistake Steve... I think Ellsworth was talking about JOHN MASEN, not this man.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 1 hour ago, David Josephs said: Hoping for some help... Found a heavily redacted CIA pdf on Alpha 66... Could "HERNANDEZ" of the Alpha 66 Hernandez group be FATHER LEON HERNANDEZ? p12 http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/Alpha-66-1-CIA.pdf David, Another possibility would be Jesus Hernandez. He was on the Board of Directors. REPORT: JUNTA REVOLUCIONARIA CUBANA; SEGUNDO FRENTE DE ESCAMBRAY (OPERATION ALPHA 66); DIRECTORIO REVOLUCIONARIO ESTUDIANTIL; MOVIMIENTO REVOLUCIONARIO 30 DE NOVIEMBRE; FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE NARA Record Number: 104-10320-10070 See page 5 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726#relPageId=5&tab=page Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 (edited) On 6/29/2018 at 12:47 PM, David Josephs said: David, CD 853 page 2 of SS Protective Research Referral Memorandum. Description provided by Immigration and Naturalization Service https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11250#relPageId=7&tab=page Born 11/8/28 in Santiago Cuba. Report dated 3/9/64, which would make him 35 years old at the time. On 2/10/64, Wallace Heitman interviewed Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro, at which time Orcarberro said that he was born 11/8/28 in Santiago de Cuba, Oriente (Province?), Cuba. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=221&tab=page Do either of these two men look 35? That's why I'm not sure in my own mind that that's a picture of Orcarberro Steve Thomas Edited December 13, 2019 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 On 6/29/2018 at 1:06 PM, David Josephs said: There is no HUSPETH in Oak Cliff... but there is an ELSBETH... Trying to find out what the "Hernandez Group of Alpha-66" was... as it seems He/They ran the safehouse behind Beckley https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/0uTDOAkK_W8 The FBI interviewed every Cuban they could find in Sulfur, Oklahoma. They found a man named Miguel L. DeSocarraz living in the Oklahoma Veterans Hospital, who said that on Sunday, November 17, he'd been visited by a number of people in a older, cream-colored station wagon. This group included Manolito Rodriguez, akaManuel Rodriguez Occarberro, his wife and young child, two other men, their wives, and a girl of 13 or 14. DeSoccaraz studied the photograph of Oswald printed in the Daily Oklahoman, and stated that Rodriguez "possibly did resemble Oswald," but not identically. "Rodriguez cannot speak English. He resides at 1208 Huspeth (Oak Cliff) Dallas, Texas, with a telephone number FR4-5923 . . . Rodriguez is employed as a welder in Dallas." Coincidentally, Rodriguez, born in Cuba in 1928 and living in the US since 1960, was in 1963 the President of the Dallas Chapter of Alpha-66, the anti-Castro paramilitary group based in Miami. Rodriguez told the FBI (in Spanish) that Alpha-66 held meetings at 3126 Hollandale in Oak Cliff, and that he had no contact "with any American persons or other persons" concerning arms purchases. The CIA sent a teletype to the Miami FBI office that an informant called "'D' reports one Manuel Rodriguez (matronym unknown) living in Dallas, Texas, was known to be violently anti-President Kennedy." The Secret Service also received this report and rather belatedly issued a Protective Research Memorandum onManuel Rodriguez Occarberro, describing him as "violently anti-Kennedy." On the evening following the assassination, an informant reported to Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers that Oswald had been seen attending meetings of the Alpha-66 group at "3126 Hollandale" in Oak Cliff. Some speculate this could actually have been John Thomas Masen, who was linked to this group by ATF agent Frank Ellsworth, and who bore some resemblance to Oswald in 1963, as seen in film stills (or video captures?) posted to alt.conspiracy.jfk by John Woods II. The CIA -- Alpha-66's sponsor -- denied that any such address existed. The FBI revealed in 1975 that the actual address at 3128 Harlandale Street; it had been vacated about a week before the assassination. The Bureau turned up 1963 Alpha-66 fundraising letters mailed from this address signed by "Manuel Rodriguez, General Secretary of Alpha-66" (CIA 88-27; Weberman Web site:http://www.weberman.com/nodules/nodule16.htm). Anyone have access to a 1963 city directory for Dallas? Might find Rodriguez's address there, especially if the phone numbers are the same. That would take care of the Huspeth/Elsbeth question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mark Knight said: Anyone have access to a 1963 city directory for Dallas? Might find Rodriguez's address there, especially if the phone numbers are the same. That would take care of the Huspeth/Elsbeth question. This might get you to the 1961 directory, which might help. Perhaps from there you can get to the 1963 directory. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24124-dallas-city-directory-1961/ and, I'll ping Ashton, perhaps he has more to add to this thread @Ashton Gray Edited June 30, 2018 by Michael Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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