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Ashton Gray

The Oak Cliff "Safe Houses"

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Posted (edited)

Thank you once again. That helps. A lot. 1963.

When only have had the time to dip down into the surface of the ocean, that this subject is, - I probably only have read , or re-read what would amount to one drop of it.

A number of details rings a bell, - but getting an overview of this puzzle, will take time. Every single time additional inputs, - from such knowledgeable people as you, - is received, - - - time and energy is saved/spared. So being grateful is in order.

Only this last post of yours, - will most certainly initiate searching-frenzies , - when the time and energy is available. The passage of time, - and fading of memory, -  makes one uncertain of even whether one once knew some things, - re-learning them, - or if they are new alltogether. It really doesn't matter.

Bells ring, regarding the activity at the house, - some of the names mentioned, - the hierarchy within , - the undercover-initiative to expose arms-purchasing , - the Odio-issue, - and so forth. But the ringing is so faint. One thing is details,- but seeing them in different contexts, - trying to get some sort of overview of certain areas, - is another matter. Maybe there is a limit of how much one can simplify something being this complex of nature.

Analyzing everything drain energy. I.e. - every time an action is taken, one try to see it from all possible perspectives, - - understanding the purpose / intention / reason, behind it. Like the action taken,  -  writing a report, for instance. 

I see now , it would seem logical, - with the examples given of said reasons, ---- why the FBI would approach him. Seen from the perspective of the Bureau. They seem to have collective weight, - sitting here and reading about them. Additionally answering my question of "common practice" in part.

Can't remember that it (the house) could have been under surveillance, - but as I'm writing this, - I struggle to form sentences. For all I know, - it is mentioned in this thread earlier.

Time for sleep.

Probably dreaming about Orcarberrio's  own initiative to the February 10th, - interview, the purpose thereof (trying to be objective, is a challenge, - being a subject) --- which role he had at that point in time, --------- as well as tracking down his maybe alive daughter, - I seem to remember reading about, - who would have been born in 1960/61.

Edited by Trygve V. Jensen

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1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

There are a number of points that might have led the FBI to interview Orcarberrio during 1963, related both the the people involved with the House on Harlandale, to weapons purchasing activities in Dallas and after the assassination in regard to both reports about the house and Oswald and issues like Sylvia Odio's statements.

 

Larry,

 

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. It seems like there was a push by the anti-Castro Cuban exile community to establish a presence in the Dallas area in the May-June, 1963 time frame. JURE, DRE, Alpha-66.

Do you see any significance to this?

 

Steve Thomas

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I suspect some of it, particularly for those exiles who wanted to continue military action against Castro, had to do with the increasing pressure that was being placed on them by the FBI, ATF, INS etc to interdict operations.  That was especially true in Miami and south Florida and there was escalating surveillance by several law enforcement agencies not to mention the new Cuban Intelligence Service operated by JM/WAVE.

New Orleans had been the first fall back position, with efforts to set up training camps there, but based on informants in Miami, several of those operations were exposed and the crack downs began to make that area less attractive. 

What we don't really know is whether or not there were efforts to regroup in the Texas port cities such as Houston or Galveston,  Dallas may seem to stand out because we simply know more of what was going on based on information revealed in the various JFK investigations.

Another factor in the whole thing was the simple fact that the Kennedy administration was putting lots of support and lots of money behind the off shore Artime/AMWORLD project, essentially freezing out groups they had been supporting, such as DRE. The independent groups were becoming even more stressed for funds - that's why I write about the whole context changing in 1963, between insiders and outsiders. Bottom line was that one apparent source of funds were the ultra right, big money oil and ranching people in Texas - some of the first to have committed money to covert CIA ops back in 1960.  No doubt the exiles thought it might be a good place to raise money - although I don't think that really worked out for them, they were certainly trying to get money out of Texas though, that's clear.

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8 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Bottom line was that one apparent source of funds were the ultra right, big money oil and ranching people in Texas

Ah yes, money. That makes sense. That and politics, I suppose. For some reason Dallas seemed to be a black hole for extremist political thought.

What was it JFK said, "We're heading into nut country today"?

 

Steve Thomas

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On 4/13/2018 at 1:37 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Larry,

 

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. It seems like there was a push by the anti-Castro Cuban exile community to establish a presence in the Dallas area in the May-June, 1963 time frame. JURE, DRE, Alpha-66.

Do you see any significance to this?

 

Steve Thomas

The OSWALD Project started just around that time...  and if Alpha-66 was truly run by the CIA...

Tosh talks of visiting the 1026 safe house April - June 1963....

:cheers

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There is no HUSPETH in Oak Cliff... but there is an ELSBETH...

Trying to find out what the "Hernandez Group of Alpha-66" was... as it seems He/They ran the safehouse behind Beckley

1434498803_1208ElsbethmayhavebeenOrcaberrioaddress-HUSPETHdoesnotexist.thumb.jpg.2eb7692d2dd31d563be20e7fee0cfcad.jpg

 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/0uTDOAkK_W8

The FBI interviewed every Cuban they could find in Sulfur, Oklahoma. They found
a man named Miguel L. DeSocarraz living in the Oklahoma Veterans Hospital, who
said that on Sunday, November 17, he'd been visited by a number of people in a
older, cream-colored station wagon. This group included Manolito Rodriguez, aka
Manuel Rodriguez Occarberro, his wife and young child, two other men, their
wives, and a girl of 13 or 14. DeSoccaraz studied the photograph of Oswald
printed in the Daily Oklahoman, and stated that Rodriguez "possibly did
resemble Oswald," but not identically. "Rodriguez cannot speak English. He
resides at 1208 Huspeth (Oak Cliff) Dallas, Texas, with a telephone number
FR4-5923 . . . Rodriguez is employed as a welder in Dallas." Coincidentally,
Rodriguez, born in Cuba in 1928 and living in the US since 1960, was in 1963
the President of the Dallas Chapter of Alpha-66, the anti-Castro paramilitary
group based in Miami. Rodriguez told the FBI (in Spanish) that Alpha-66 held
meetings at 3126 Hollandale in Oak Cliff, and that he had no contact "with any
American persons or other persons" concerning arms purchases.

The CIA sent a teletype to the Miami FBI office that an informant called "'D'
reports one Manuel Rodriguez (matronym unknown) living in Dallas, Texas, was
known to be violently anti-President Kennedy." The Secret Service also received
this report and rather belatedly issued a Protective Research Memorandum on
Manuel Rodriguez Occarberro, describing him as "violently anti-Kennedy." On the
evening following the assassination, an informant reported to Deputy Sheriff
Buddy Walthers that Oswald had been seen attending meetings of the Alpha-66
group at "3126 Hollandale" in Oak Cliff. Some speculate this could actually
have been John Thomas Masen, who was linked to this group by ATF agent Frank
Ellsworth, and who bore some resemblance to Oswald in 1963, as seen in film
stills (or video captures?) posted to alt.conspiracy.jfk by John Woods II.

The CIA -- Alpha-66's sponsor -- denied that any such address existed. The FBI
revealed in 1975 that the actual address at 3128 Harlandale Street; it had been
vacated about a week before the assassination. The Bureau turned up 1963
Alpha-66 fundraising letters mailed from this address signed by "Manuel
Rodriguez, General Secretary of Alpha-66"
(CIA 88-27; Weberman Web site:
http://www.weberman.com/nodules/nodule16.htm).

 

 

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Thanks David. I must admit that Rodriguez looks like the guy in the brown sport jacket sitting in the front row in Veciana's pictures.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, David Boylan said:

Thanks David. I must admit that Rodriguez looks like the guy in the brown sport jacket sitting in the front row in Veciana's pictures.

 

763722332_OSWALDLOOKLIKEPERFRANKELLSWORTH.jpg.16a420cdaa6eae86b1b16c91dcc7d2ad.jpg

 

Yet Evica is referring to John Thomas Masen - who MAY be this man in one of the photos - front row

465258136_OswaldandMasen-EvicafeelsElsworthistalkingaboutMASENandnotOrcaberrio.jpg.7d54bf0aa72298f1c8e21d2fa9db1f3d.jpg

"And We are all Mortal" p83  https://drive.google.com/file/d/13UcmmGkJpUIaFgMqn-XByNF0AKArhSWd/view 

Ellsworth revealed to reporter Russell that reports of Oswald with alleged Minutemen at a
Dallas area rifle range were actually of his look-alike with known Minutemen friends.
According to Ellsworth, he verified these rifle range appearances with his Other Oswald.
Warren Report supporters have challenged Commission critics to come up with a name to
match the many credible sightings of a ‘second Oswald,’ and now a name and identity can
be supplied. And the most crucial sightings: the rifle range observations, where the Oswald
double fired an Italian carbine and in the company of others, can now be corroborated.
Ellsworth revealed that his Oswald double had been charged with a violation of the National
Firearms Act and was released (after raising bond) on a routine okay from agent Ellsworth,
the arresting Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms officer responsible for the investigation. The
April 16 1964, Commission memo cites ‘the arrest of a local gun shop owner,’ and CD 853
verifies that arrest on National Firearms Act violations.

Ellsworth described his covert Treasury Department inquiry into the ‘Other Oswald’ to
Village Voice interviewer Dick Russell, asserting his look-alike and Oswald were exact
duplicates of each other: weight, height, face, and hair, ‘identical twins.’ Ellsworth
confirmed he had been tracking his ‘Oswald’ twin undercover, leading the look-alike to
believe that Ellsworth was a criminal involved in Mexican smuggling. This ‘Oswald’ was a
right-winger and a member of the Minutemen, according to Treasury Agent Frank Ellsworth,
and was eventually convicted on a gun violation. Ultimately released, the Oswald double
has remained in sometime contact with Ellsworth since 1964, reported Dick Russell.
The April 16 Commission memo summarized Ellsworth's testimony:

An organization known as the Minutemen is the right-wing group in Dallas most likely
to have been associated with any effort to assassinate the President.
As a result of (his] undercover activities Agent Ellsworth learned that Manuel O. Rodriguez
...was attempting to purchase arms in Dallas (from a Minutemen-associated gunsmith] for
Alpha 66. Rodriguez is also a member of the DRE.

 

Though Ellsworth did not make the final identification of his ‘Other Oswald’ to Russell by
name, Ellsworth's description and the known facts about the arrested gunsmith cited in CD
853 dovetail exactly, and to reporter Russell, Frank Ellsworth finally admitted that Russell
was pressing him for information which could jeopardize both himself and his ‘agency.’ He
suggested that if Russell found his Oswald twin, the link between Ellsworth's gunsmith and
the look-alike would be readily apparent; when Russell interviewed the gunsmith he found

84

a ‘resemblance.’ According to CD 853, Treasury Agent Frank Ellsworth had gathered
evidence against John Thomas Masen... Dallas, Texas, for violation of National Firearms
Act. Masen informed Ellsworth that (Manuel Orcarberro] Rodriguez...had made purchases
from him; that they (Alpha 66] presently had a large cache of arms somewhere in Dallas...
John Thomas Masen, whose history matches precisely the Ellsworth ‘Oswald’ description.

And who is Manuel Rodriguez? Rodriguez was the head of the Dallas Alpha 66, the anti-
Castro Cuban organization that met at 3126 Harlendale Avenue, reputedly the home of

Jorge Salazar. Rodriguez (also known to federal authorities as Manuel Rodriguez
Orcarberro) was under investigation after the Kennedy assassination by the Protective
Research Division of the Secret Service, that branch charged with probing possible threats
to the life of the president. Rodriguez was known to be violently anti-Castro and to have
made anti-Kennedy statements after the Bay of Pigs defeat.

Edited by David Josephs

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4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

David,

 

1180784081_Orcarberro(2)maybe.jpg.82ddac9ad772f9e38355044937df50ff.jpg

 

CD 853 page 2 of SS Protective Research Referral Memorandum.

Description provided by Immigration and Naturalization Service https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11250#relPageId=7&tab=page

 

A physical description provided, said that Orcarberro was 69” tall, and weighed 145 lbs. He had brown hair and brown eyes.

 

FBI Report of Wallace Heitman May 26, 1964

CD 1085 page 223.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=223&tab=page

page 5 of Heitman's memo.

 

Rodriguez advised that he is 5'11” in height, weighs 158 lbs, has brown hair. It was observed that Rodriguez wears dark glasses and has a dark complexion”

 

I never have been able to reconcile these two descriptions, which is why I didn't mention Orcarberro as possibly being the man in Bart's Alpha 66 picture here in this thread. Plus, I personally don't think the ears or the balding forehead match very well.

 

Steve Thomas

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3 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

I never have been able to reconcile these two descriptions, which is why I didn't mention Orcarberro as possibly being the man in Bart's Alpha 66 picture here in this thread. Plus, I personally don't think the ears or the balding forehead match very well.

I believe I made a mistake Steve...  I think Ellsworth was talking about JOHN MASEN, not this man....

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Hoping for some help...  Found a heavily redacted CIA pdf on Alpha 66...

Could "HERNANDEZ" of the Alpha 66 Hernandez group be FATHER LEON HERNANDEZ?

p12 http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/Alpha-66-1-CIA.pdf  

 

David,

 

Another possibility would be Jesus Hernandez. He was on the Board of Directors.

 

REPORT: JUNTA REVOLUCIONARIA CUBANA; SEGUNDO FRENTE DE ESCAMBRAY (OPERATION ALPHA 66); DIRECTORIO REVOLUCIONARIO ESTUDIANTIL; MOVIMIENTO REVOLUCIONARIO 30 DE NOVIEMBRE; FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE

NARA Record Number: 104-10320-10070

See page 5

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726#relPageId=5&tab=page

 

Steve Thomas

 

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11 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

763722332_OSWALDLOOKLIKEPERFRANKELLSWORTH.jpg.16a420cdaa6eae86b1b16c91dcc7d2ad.jpg

 

 

David,

 

image.png.99729f5f289bdac7701596d1ce1bd4f0.png

CD 853 page 2 of SS Protective Research Referral Memorandum.

Description provided by Immigration and Naturalization Service https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11250#relPageId=7&tab=page

Born 11/8/28 in Santiago Cuba. Report dated 3/9/64, which would make him 35 years old at the time.

 

On 2/10/64, Wallace Heitman interviewed Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro, at which time Orcarberro said that he was born 11/8/28 in Santiago de Cuba, Oriente (Province?), Cuba.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=221&tab=page

 

Do either of these two men look 35? That's why I'm not sure in my own mind that that's a picture of Orcarberro

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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On 6/29/2018 at 1:06 PM, David Josephs said:

There is no HUSPETH in Oak Cliff... but there is an ELSBETH...

Trying to find out what the "Hernandez Group of Alpha-66" was... as it seems He/They ran the safehouse behind Beckley

1434498803_1208ElsbethmayhavebeenOrcaberrioaddress-HUSPETHdoesnotexist.thumb.jpg.2eb7692d2dd31d563be20e7fee0cfcad.jpg

 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/0uTDOAkK_W8

The FBI interviewed every Cuban they could find in Sulfur, Oklahoma. They found
a man named Miguel L. DeSocarraz living in the Oklahoma Veterans Hospital, who
said that on Sunday, November 17, he'd been visited by a number of people in a
older, cream-colored station wagon. This group included Manolito Rodriguez, aka
Manuel Rodriguez Occarberro, his wife and young child, two other men, their
wives, and a girl of 13 or 14. DeSoccaraz studied the photograph of Oswald
printed in the Daily Oklahoman, and stated that Rodriguez "possibly did
resemble Oswald," but not identically. "Rodriguez cannot speak English. He
resides at 1208 Huspeth (Oak Cliff) Dallas, Texas, with a telephone number
FR4-5923 . . . Rodriguez is employed as a welder in Dallas." Coincidentally,
Rodriguez, born in Cuba in 1928 and living in the US since 1960, was in 1963
the President of the Dallas Chapter of Alpha-66, the anti-Castro paramilitary
group based in Miami. Rodriguez told the FBI (in Spanish) that Alpha-66 held
meetings at 3126 Hollandale in Oak Cliff, and that he had no contact "with any
American persons or other persons" concerning arms purchases.

The CIA sent a teletype to the Miami FBI office that an informant called "'D'
reports one Manuel Rodriguez (matronym unknown) living in Dallas, Texas, was
known to be violently anti-President Kennedy." The Secret Service also received
this report and rather belatedly issued a Protective Research Memorandum on
Manuel Rodriguez Occarberro, describing him as "violently anti-Kennedy." On the
evening following the assassination, an informant reported to Deputy Sheriff
Buddy Walthers that Oswald had been seen attending meetings of the Alpha-66
group at "3126 Hollandale" in Oak Cliff. Some speculate this could actually
have been John Thomas Masen, who was linked to this group by ATF agent Frank
Ellsworth, and who bore some resemblance to Oswald in 1963, as seen in film
stills (or video captures?) posted to alt.conspiracy.jfk by John Woods II.

The CIA -- Alpha-66's sponsor -- denied that any such address existed. The FBI
revealed in 1975 that the actual address at 3128 Harlandale Street; it had been
vacated about a week before the assassination. The Bureau turned up 1963
Alpha-66 fundraising letters mailed from this address signed by "Manuel
Rodriguez, General Secretary of Alpha-66"
(CIA 88-27; Weberman Web site:
http://www.weberman.com/nodules/nodule16.htm).

 

 

Anyone have access to a 1963 city directory for Dallas? Might find Rodriguez's address there, especially if the phone numbers are the same. That would take care of the Huspeth/Elsbeth question.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

Anyone have access to a 1963 city directory for Dallas? Might find Rodriguez's address there, especially if the phone numbers are the same. That would take care of the Huspeth/Elsbeth question.

This might get you to the 1961 directory, which might help. Perhaps from there you can get to the 1963 directory.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24124-dallas-city-directory-1961/

 

and, I'll ping Ashton, perhaps he has more to add to this thread

@Ashton Gray

Edited by Michael Clark

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