The Crash of the U-2 on November 20, 1963

[Len Colby]

I'm puzzled Marshall should have advanced such a fantastic argument - he seriously thought wrecking the Paris summit between Ike and Khrushchev was a solid demonstration of CIA judiciousness in the deployment of the U-2?

Paul, what evidence do you have that the CIA aranged for Powers' plane to be downed?

[Evan Burton]

A second thought occurs: Does the Pedlow/Welzenbach tome omit all reference to Scoville's resignation? Surely not?!

It mentions that he resigned because he was "...frustrated with the lack of support from the DCI and the other directorates..."

[Paul Rigby]

I'm puzzled Marshall should have advanced such a fantastic argument - he seriously thought wrecking the Paris summit between Ike and Khrushchev was a solid demonstration of CIA judiciousness in the deployment of the U-2?

Paul, what evidence do you have that the CIA aranged for Powers' plane to be downed?

Len,

Nothing less than a signed confession from Dulles. He was generous like that. As soon as the tippex is dry, I'll scan it and post.

Paul

[Greg Parker]

I still don't see anything linking the crash to the events of JFK. U2s crashed before and after the events, and under similar circumstances. What's the deal?

U2s were shot down or crashed before the USA-USSR summit, which caused its cancelation, during the Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis, and now, as Robert points out, within days of JFK's assassination.

I would say the loss of a U2 is a harbanger of things to come.

BK

Bill do you think anything sinister was at play?

before the USA-USSR summit

The summit had already been planned, though I guess the possibility that the PTB wanted to sabotage the summit can’t de totally discounted. Is there any evidence Ike and Krushev might have reached a break though that would have challenged their interests. The Cockburn-Ridgeway article seem to suggest the Russians might have sabotaged Powers’ plane.

during the Bay of Pigs

nope no U-2’s were shotdown during the BOP

Cuban Missile Crisis

Anderson was shot down well into the crisis the superpowers reached a deal the next day. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/cuba-62.htm

I am now in correspondence with Joe Hyde III, he told me the following (he gave me permission to quote anything he writes me):

regarding the shoot down of Rudy Anderson a year earlier: That was a catalyst for resolving the Cuban Missile Crisis. What the US didn't know at the time was that the Soviets had a brigade of their army in Cuba armed with tactical nukes. The Soviets did not want to have to deal with a small scale nuclear war over the shoot down of Rudy Anderson. And, the shoot down was conducted WITHOUT the consent of the Kremlin. All of these facts came out in the CIA symposium in 1998 where they declassified the U-2 program. There were some former (retired) Soviet generals attending and participating in panel discussions a la CSPAN.

Does anybody know anything more about the symposium?

within days of JFK's assassination

But Robert has been unable to come up with any reason to believe the events were linked.

And hey Bill don't forget the U-2 that crashed near Oruro, Bolivia (see earlier post) a few months before and about 200 miles from Che's capture and execution in Valle Grande

I asked Hyde:

I also wonder even if someone wanted to sabotage the plane how exactly they'd do it. I image they'd had to have corrupted several members of the ground crew and do so in a way that your dad would not have noticed during his pre-flight check and the investigators and divers not discovered (unless they were in on it too).

And he replied:

There is a book written called "Me and U-2" http://www.habu.org/meandu2/. The author was a member of my dad's ground crew. My dad was well liked and respected. I am confident none of them would be in on a conspiracy.

Apperently the book mentions the Hyde crash if anyone's interested.

Hyde also told me:

In 1993 and 1996 I attended the 4080 SRW reunion in Del Rio where I spoke with the Deputy Commander of Operations at the time who headed the safety and accident investigation. He told me exactly what I wrote. I believe him.

Regarding the possibility that his dad’s plane had been made to crash as an aborted pretext for an invasion he wrote (emphasis Hyde's):

If it was, the crash occurred at a really silly place to make a connection. He went down 40 miles NORTHWEST of Key West, far away from the shores of Castro's Cuba.

Len, from the DMN story 11.21.63 originally posted by Robert: Military sources in Washington said the U-2 pilot did not radio any indication of trouble before the crash and the plane presumably went down due to mechanical trouble. However they said the crash could have been the result of a Cuban attack. Obviously then, the Military did not think it entirely preposterous that the Cubans would down a plane 100 or 180 miles (depending on which story, if any, had the distance right) from Cuba's coastline.

Additionally, in the context of a Northwoods type operation, it made no sense to bring it down over Cuba as they would have every right to do that - and had done so already. In any event, U2 flights did not have to actually fly over the exact locations of interest. Quality images could be obtained from 100's of miles away.

Also, the U-2 was flimsy and the thin air would amplify the damage, surely downing the plane near the point of impact (or proximity explosion which took out Rudy Anderson and Gary Powers). If ANYTHING exploded near it, it went down immediately. There was no "nursing" the plane back. Therefore, if you are going to make a crash of a U-2 a credible reason to invade Cuba, wouldn't it make sense to explode it OVER the island, not northwest of Key West?

He wrote the following regarding Cuba’s “Gringo” “on the rocks” story:

No, it would not make more sense. See above as to why. However, even shooting down the U2 in neutral or US waters may not, in isolation, have been sufficient to launch an attack on the tiny island. To quote from the Northwoods document: Such a plan would enable a logical build-up of incidents to be combined with other seemingly unrelated events to camoflage the ultimate objective and create the necessary impression of Cuban rashness and irresponsibility on a large scale...The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba... . The shoot-down, followed by an attempted or actual assassination of the President though, would surely have seemed sufficient. Then Oswald got arrested. Too bad.

There are numerous suggested plans listed in Northwoods involving planes, including, creating an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack. Other suggestions include a simulated shootdown with a sub or small surface boat distributing "wreckage".

“We had a Georgia US Congressman look into this for us in 1977. In fact, my grandfather, Joe Hyde, Sr was all over it (I was in 7th grade). There never was any U-2 pilot in ice in Cuba. They did retrieve a body or two of some Bay of Pigs mercenaries, but not US G.I.'s

I followed up on this story again in 1987 and talked via phone to a lawyer involved in this trip. I believe he was from Denver. He said the newspapers got it all wrong and never followed up. The body was of a B-25/26 mercenary pilot or crew member. No U-2 pilot; no US GI.

Also, it would be quite remarkable for the Cubans to retrieve the body of a U-2 pilot 40 miles NORTHWEST of Key West when US military search and rescue craft and personnel were in the vicinity within 10 minutes of the crash!”

They claimed they had a "Johnson", though no one by that name was shot down. What would be their purpose in lying about having a pilot, given the difficulties you point out? Let's just say that at least one plan in Northwoods involved supplying pilots with false ID.

I will add that Northwoods, as an idea, had been circulating since toward the end of Eisenhower's presidency. I believe there were aborted attempts, or attempts gone awry, at providing Northwoods style pretexts for invasion both before and after the Northwoods document was authored in March, 1962.

If you contact JH III for comment, please do post them here. I'd surely appreciate his take on my 2.83 cents worth.

Len

[Thomas Graves]

News did not travel as fast in 1963 as it does in the third millenium. For that development, Technological advancements in the realm of Fiber Optics have created a culture where incredibly detailed stories and events are transmitted in seconds or even less. The crash of the U-2 near Key West on Wednesday November 20, 1963 did not register in some locales until quite some time had elapsed.

The following are three newspoaper stories of the crash of the U-2 piloted by Capt Joe Hyde as transmitted via the wire service's AP & UPI.

DMN 11-21-1963

U-2 Plane Reported in Crash

KEY WEST, Fla - (UPI)

A U-2 "spy" plane believed to be on a reconnaissance mission over Communist Cuba crashed Wednesday in the Gulf of Mexico Wednesday, 40 miles northwest of here. Military sources in Washington said the U-2 pilot did not radio any indication of trouble before the crash and the plane presumably went down due to mechanical trouble. However they said the crash could have been the result of a Cuban attack.

The pilot of the U-2 was identified as Capt. Joe E. Hyde Jr., 33 of La Grange, Ga

DMN 11-22-1963

Wreckage of Pilotless U-2 Located

KEY WEST, Fla - (AP) The wreck of a U-2 plane was found Thursday on the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico. But its cockpit was empty, holding out hope that its pilot Capt. Joe G. Hyde Jr., might have survived the crash.

Presumably returning from a mission over Fidel Castro's Communist Cuba, the high flying reconnaissance aircraft suddenly vanished from radar scopes at 10:32 AM. Wednesday, some 40 miles northwest of Key West and 188 miles north of the Cuban coast. It was there that debris was sighted Thursday morning by the searching Coast Guard cutter Nemesis. By 11:30 A.M. divers from the Navy salvage vessels Petrel and Shrike were on the wreckage in 100 foot-deep water and had confirmed that the pilot was not in the cockpit. At La Grange, Ga., Hyde's home his mother clung desperately to the belief that her 33 year-old son was still "living somewhere."

Navy and Coast Guard planes and surface craft plunged into a search for the pilot. But a Navy spokesman said, "I don't hold much hope for him."

The Navy denied a rumor that a parachute had been sighted. Both the Defense Department and the Strategic Air Command headquarters at Omaha, Nebraska said that there was no evidence that the sleek one man plane which flies at admitted heights of 75,000 feet had met with hostile action over Cuba.

This is the last of the three stories which ran in late 1963.....

DMN 12-2-1963

U-2 Pilot Dead AF Discloses

LaGrange, Ga., - (AP) The Air Force has disclosed that a U-2 plane pilot died in the crash of his plane which went down in the Gulf of Mexico Nov. 20, after a mission over Cuba.

A Coast Guard cutter found the plane's wreckage about 40 miles northwest of Key West, Fla., the following day.

The Air Force notified the family Saturday that it had substantiated that Capt. Joe G. Hyde Jr. the pilot, went down with the plane. Notification was in the form of a telegram. Cause of the crash has not been announced. The victims wife said plans are being made for a memorial service at LaGrange.

Ponder for a moment the fact that when the U-2 was shot down before the diffusing of the Cuban Mussile Crisis in October 1962, the story was common knowledge, while the downing of Hyde's U-2 recieved markedly less coverage

While there has not been, to my knowledge, any clarification on the part of our Government as to the circumstances which led to the U-2 crash on Nov. 20, 1963and it's aftermath; the point that should be rasied is, why did a very similar scenario to the one detailed in the historical record of October of 1962 garner only three wire-service reports and then vanish as a news story, to the degree that it was practically, as if it never happened?

The question is a valid one, and the answers invariably enter into that very unpopular realm known as "conspiracy theory."

It is my assertion that "conspiracy theories" thrive and flourish in an informational vacuum, inversely if an issue is addressed in a manner befitting a culture known for placing a premium on the "truth" and a fully informed body politic, then if there is no merit to conspiratorial speculation, it will simply collapse under the weight of its own lack of validity. If, however the topic is one that is addressed in a manner that is not truthful or, forthright, then the gas is added to the fire in a time-released manner so to speak in which the questions and speculations never go away, they just smolder and eventually die out.

Their is a body of thought which asserts in relation to the U-2 crash near Key West that the reason the story was buried, [for the most part] was that "it" was a stand-by event, in which, if the linking of the assassination of JFK was made with the connivance of the Castro government then the "downing" of Capt. Hyde's U-2 could have been added on to the "flow of news stories" emaniating in the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination, which could have helped present a de facto causus belli for the annihilation of the Castro Regime, either by invasion or massive retaliatory air-strikes.

In the revelation that the new-President "did not warm" to either idea, presented in the last paraagraph. So the question beg's to be asked.....Was the burying of the news surrounding the loss of the U-2, part of the abandoning of the "plan to invade and/or unleash a massive air to ground assault on Cuba, once it was apparent that LBJ was not going to do anything rash?"

With the aid of hindsight, the argument can be made that the reason

__________________________________

Robert,

IMO, there is a very good reason why the alleged shootdown of the U2 over Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis got more press than the reported disappearance of a U2 two days before the hit on JFK. At the time of the former, the world was on the edge of nuclear Armageddon and knew it... I was 12 years old in October of 1962 and I'll always remember one of my "middle school" teachers' bringing a radio to class at the beginning of the crisis and telling us how we were witnessing the making of history and also how incredibly critical the next few days would be to the survival of life on planet Earth. In that kind of environment, you practically jump out of your skin when somebody sneezes. Now given that, just imagine hearing during the crisis itself that a US airplane has just disappeared from radar screens over the "hot spot" itself.... Yowie Zowie!!!

The horrible and tragic events of November 22, 1963 naturally diverted whatever (little?) attention the world, and we Americans in particular, had been paying to the disappearance of the U2 near Cuba on November 20, first reported in the press on November 21.

What's so mysterious or suspicious or devious about that?

--Thomas

__________________________________

Edited April 27, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

News did not travel as fast in 1963 as it does in the third millenium. For that development, Technological advancements in the realm of Fiber Optics have created a culture where incredibly detailed stories and events are transmitted in seconds or even less. The crash of the U-2 near Key West on Wednesday November 20, 1963 did not register in some locales until quite some time had elapsed.

The following are three newspoaper stories of the crash of the U-2 piloted by Capt Joe Hyde as transmitted via the wire service's AP & UPI.

DMN 11-21-1963

U-2 Plane Reported in Crash

KEY WEST, Fla - (UPI)

A U-2 "spy" plane believed to be on a reconnaissance mission over Communist Cuba crashed Wednesday in the Gulf of Mexico Wednesday, 40 miles northwest of here. Military sources in Washington said the U-2 pilot did not radio any indication of trouble before the crash and the plane presumably went down due to mechanical trouble. However they said the crash could have been the result of a Cuban attack.

The pilot of the U-2 was identified as Capt. Joe E. Hyde Jr., 33 of La Grange, Ga

DMN 11-22-1963

Wreckage of Pilotless U-2 Located

KEY WEST, Fla - (AP) The wreck of a U-2 plane was found Thursday on the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico. But its cockpit was empty, holding out hope that its pilot Capt. Joe G. Hyde Jr., might have survived the crash.

Presumably returning from a mission over Fidel Castro's Communist Cuba, the high flying reconnaissance aircraft suddenly vanished from radar scopes at 10:32 AM. Wednesday, some 40 miles northwest of Key West and 188 miles north of the Cuban coast. It was there that debris was sighted Thursday morning by the searching Coast Guard cutter Nemesis. By 11:30 A.M. divers from the Navy salvage vessels Petrel and Shrike were on the wreckage in 100 foot-deep water and had confirmed that the pilot was not in the cockpit. At La Grange, Ga., Hyde's home his mother clung desperately to the belief that her 33 year-old son was still "living somewhere."

Navy and Coast Guard planes and surface craft plunged into a search for the pilot. But a Navy spokesman said, "I don't hold much hope for him."

The Navy denied a rumor that a parachute had been sighted. Both the Defense Department and the Strategic Air Command headquarters at Omaha, Nebraska said that there was no evidence that the sleek one man plane which flies at admitted heights of 75,000 feet had met with hostile action over Cuba.

This is the last of the three stories which ran in late 1963.....

DMN 12-2-1963

U-2 Pilot Dead AF Discloses

LaGrange, Ga., - (AP) The Air Force has disclosed that a U-2 plane pilot died in the crash of his plane which went down in the Gulf of Mexico Nov. 20, after a mission over Cuba.

A Coast Guard cutter found the plane's wreckage about 40 miles northwest of Key West, Fla., the following day.

The Air Force notified the family Saturday that it had substantiated that Capt. Joe G. Hyde Jr. the pilot, went down with the plane. Notification was in the form of a telegram. Cause of the crash has not been announced. The victims wife said plans are being made for a memorial service at LaGrange.

Ponder for a moment the fact that when the U-2 was shot down before the diffusing of the Cuban Mussile Crisis in October 1962, the story was common knowledge, while the downing of Hyde's U-2 recieved markedly less coverage

While there has not been, to my knowledge, any clarification on the part of our Government as to the circumstances which led to the U-2 crash on Nov. 20, 1963and it's aftermath; the point that should be rasied is, why did a very similar scenario to the one detailed in the historical record of October of 1962 garner only three wire-service reports and then vanish as a news story, to the degree that it was practically, as if it never happened?

The question is a valid one, and the answers invariably enter into that very unpopular realm known as "conspiracy theory."

It is my assertion that "conspiracy theories" thrive and flourish in an informational vacuum, inversely if an issue is addressed in a manner befitting a culture known for placing a premium on the "truth" and a fully informed body politic, then if there is no merit to conspiratorial speculation, it will simply collapse under the weight of its own lack of validity. If, however the topic is one that is addressed in a manner that is not truthful or, forthright, then the gas is added to the fire in a time-released manner so to speak in which the questions and speculations never go away, they just smolder and eventually die out.

Their is a body of thought which asserts in relation to the U-2 crash near Key West that the reason the story was buried, [for the most part] was that "it" was a stand-by event, in which, if the linking of the assassination of JFK was made with the connivance of the Castro government then the "downing" of Capt. Hyde's U-2 could have been added on to the "flow of news stories" emaniating in the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination, which could have helped present a de facto causus belli for the annihilation of the Castro Regime, either by invasion or massive retaliatory air-strikes.

In the revelation that the new-President "did not warm" to either idea, presented in the last paraagraph. So the question beg's to be asked.....Was the burying of the news surrounding the loss of the U-2, part of the abandoning of the "plan to invade and/or unleash a massive air to ground assault on Cuba, once it was apparent that LBJ was not going to do anything rash?"

With the aid of hindsight, the argument can be made that the reason

__________________________________

Robert,

IMO, there is a very good reason why the shootdown of the U2 over Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis got more press than the reported disappearance of a U2 two days before the hit on JFK. At the time of the former, the world was on the edge of nuclear Armageddon and knew it... I was 12 years old in October of 1962 and I'll always remember one of my "middle school" teachers' bringing a radio to class at the beginning of the crisis and telling us how we were witnessing history in the making and also how incredibly critical the next few days would be to the survival of life on planet Earth. In that kind of environment, you practically jump out of your skin when somebody sneezes. Now given that, just imagine hearing during the crisis itself that a US airplane has just disappeared from radar screens over the "hot spot" itself.... Yowie Zowie!!!

The horrible and tragic events of November 22, 1963 naturally diverted whatever (little?) attention the world, and we Americans in particular, had been paying to the disappearance of the U2 near Cuba on November 20.

What's so mysterious or suspicious or devious about that?

--Thomas

__________________________________

Improved and bumped.

__________________________________

Edited April 29, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

I still don't see anything linking the crash to the events of JFK. U2s crashed before and after the events, and under similar circumstances. What's the deal?

U2s were shot down or crashed before the USA-USSR summit, which caused its cancelation, during the Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis, and now, as Robert points out, within days of JFK's assassination.

I would say the loss of a U2 is a harbanger of things to come.

BK

Bill do you think anything sinister was at play?

before the USA-USSR summit

The summit had already been planned, though I guess the possibility that the PTB wanted to sabotage the summit can’t de totally discounted. Is there any evidence Ike and Krushev might have reached a break though that would have challenged their interests. The Cockburn-Ridgeway article seem to suggest the Russians might have sabotaged Powers’ plane.

during the Bay of Pigs

nope no U-2’s were shotdown during the BOP

Cuban Missile Crisis

Anderson was shot down well into the crisis the superpowers reached a deal the next day. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/cuba-62.htm

I am now in correspondence with Joe Hyde III, he told me the following (he gave me permission to quote anything he writes me):

regarding the shoot down of Rudy Anderson a year earlier: That was a catalyst for resolving the Cuban Missile Crisis. What the US didn't know at the time was that the Soviets had a brigade of their army in Cuba armed with tactical nukes. The Soviets did not want to have to deal with a small scale nuclear war over the shoot down of Rudy Anderson. And, the shoot down was conducted WITHOUT the consent of the Kremlin. All of these facts came out in the CIA symposium in 1998 where they declassified the U-2 program. There were some former (retired) Soviet generals attending and participating in panel discussions a la CSPAN.

Does anybody know anything more about the symposium?

within days of JFK's assassination

But Robert has been unable to come up with any reason to believe the events were linked.

And hey Bill don't forget the U-2 that crashed near Oruro, Bolivia (see earlier post) a few months before and about 200 miles from Che's capture and execution in Valle Grande

I asked Hyde:

I also wonder even if someone wanted to sabotage the plane how exactly they'd do it. I image they'd had to have corrupted several members of the ground crew and do so in a way that your dad would not have noticed during his pre-flight check and the investigators and divers not discovered (unless they were in on it too).

And he replied:

There is a book written called "Me and U-2" http://www.habu.org/meandu2/. The author was a member of my dad's ground crew. My dad was well liked and respected. I am confident none of them would be in on a conspiracy.

Apperently the book mentions the Hyde crash if anyone's interested.

Hyde also told me:

In 1993 and 1996 I attended the 4080 SRW reunion in Del Rio where I spoke with the Deputy Commander of Operations at the time who headed the safety and accident investigation. He told me exactly what I wrote. I believe him.

Regarding the possibility that his dad’s plane had been made to crash as an aborted pretext for an invasion he wrote (emphasis Hyde's):

If it was, the crash occurred at a really silly place to make a connection. He went down 40 miles NORTHWEST of Key West, far away from the shores of Castro's Cuba.

Len, from the DMN story 11.21.63 originally posted by Robert: Military sources in Washington said the U-2 pilot did not radio any indication of trouble before the crash and the plane presumably went down due to mechanical trouble. However they said the crash could have been the result of a Cuban attack. Obviously then, the Military did not think it entirely preposterous that the Cubans would down a plane 100 or 180 miles (depending on which story, if any, had the distance right) from Cuba's coastline.

Additionally, in the context of a Northwoods type operation, it made no sense to bring it down over Cuba as they would have every right to do that - and had done so already. In any event, U2 flights did not have to actually fly over the exact locations of interest. Quality images could be obtained from 100's of miles away.

Since both Len and Joe Hyde's son place so much import on where the wreckage was found, I am kind of surprised to go back to this thread and not see any replies to my points.

Here's another quote from a contemporaneous report:

"Military sources in Washington did not discount entirely the possibility of a Cuban attack on the U2. If it had been shot over Cuba, the high-flying plane could have glided as far as the area where it crashed." Panama City Herald, Nov 21, 1963

Also, the U-2 was flimsy and the thin air would amplify the damage, surely downing the plane near the point of impact (or proximity explosion which took out Rudy Anderson and Gary Powers). If ANYTHING exploded near it, it went down immediately. There was no "nursing" the plane back. Therefore, if you are going to make a crash of a U-2 a credible reason to invade Cuba, wouldn't it make sense to explode it OVER the island, not northwest of Key West?

He wrote the following regarding Cuba’s “Gringo” “on the rocks” story:

No, it would not make more sense. See above as to why. However, even shooting down the U2 in neutral or US waters may not, in isolation, have been sufficient to launch an attack on the tiny island. To quote from the Northwoods document: Such a plan would enable a logical build-up of incidents to be combined with other seemingly unrelated events to camoflage the ultimate objective and create the necessary impression of Cuban rashness and irresponsibility on a large scale...The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba... . The shoot-down, followed by an attempted or actual assassination of the President though, would surely have seemed sufficient. Then Oswald got arrested. Too bad.

There are numerous suggested plans listed in Northwoods involving planes, including, creating an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack. Other suggestions include a simulated shootdown with a sub or small surface boat distributing "wreckage".

“We had a Georgia US Congressman look into this for us in 1977. In fact, my grandfather, Joe Hyde, Sr was all over it (I was in 7th grade). There never was any U-2 pilot in ice in Cuba. They did retrieve a body or two of some Bay of Pigs mercenaries, but not US G.I.'s

I followed up on this story again in 1987 and talked via phone to a lawyer involved in this trip. I believe he was from Denver. He said the newspapers got it all wrong and never followed up. The body was of a B-25/26 mercenary pilot or crew member. No U-2 pilot; no US GI.

Also, it would be quite remarkable for the Cubans to retrieve the body of a U-2 pilot 40 miles NORTHWEST of Key West when US military search and rescue craft and personnel were in the vicinity within 10 minutes of the crash!”

They claimed they had a "Johnson", though no one by that name was shot down. What would be their purpose in lying about having a pilot, given the difficulties you point out? Let's just say that at least one plan in Northwoods involved supplying pilots with false ID.

I will add that Northwoods, as an idea, had been circulating since toward the end of Eisenhower's presidency. I believe there were aborted attempts, or attempts gone awry, at providing Northwoods style pretexts for invasion both before and after the Northwoods document was authored in March, 1962.

If you contact JH III for comment, please do post them here. I'd surely appreciate his take on my 2.83 cents worth.

Len

[John Dolva]

re Che':

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2local.html

{ed : - Lost on 28 July 1966 near Oruro, Bolivia. USAF Pilot: Robert D. Hickman became unconscious and his plane flew out over the Gulf of Mexico, eventually crashing into the side of a mountain, destroying the plane. Robert Hickman died in the crash.

- Lost on 19 December 1956. Pilot: Bob Ericson survived. Also (???) this a/c has been attributed to a crash on 8 Oct. 1966, see 390/6950)

______________

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/index.html#chron

"...

FALL, 1966: Che Guevara arrives in Bolivia sometime between the second week of September and the first of November of 1966, according to different sources. He enters the country with forged Uruguayan passports to organize and lead a communist guerrilla movement. Che chooses Bolivia as the revolutionary base for various reasons. First, Bolivia is of lower priority than Caribbean Basin countries to US security interests and poses a less immediate threat, "... the Yanquis wouldn’t concern themselves... ." Second, Bolivia’s social conditions and poverty are such that Bolivia is considered susceptible to revolutionary ideology. Finally, Bolivia shares a border with five other countries, which would allow the revolution to spread easily if the guerrillas are successful. (Harris, 60, 73; Rojo 193-194; Rodríguez:1, 157;Rodríguez:1, 198)

SPRING, 1967: From March to August of 1967, Che Guevara and his guerrilla band strike "pretty much at will" against the Bolivian Armed Forces, which totals about twenty thousand men. The guerrillas lose only one man compared to 30 of the Bolivians during these six months. (James, 250, NYT 9/16/67)

APRIL 28, 1967: General Ovando, of the Bolivian Armed Forces, and the U.S. Army Section signed a Memorandum of Understanding with regard to the 2nd Ranger Battalion of the Bolivian Army "which clearly defines the terms of U.S.-Bolivian Armed Forces cooperation in the activation, organization, and training of this unit."

MAY 11, 1967: Walt Rostow, presidential advisor to Lyndon B. Johnson, sends a message to the President saying that he received the first credible report that "Che" Guevara is alive and operating in South America, although more evidence is needed. (Rostow 05/11/67)

JUNE, 1967: Cuban-American CIA agent Félix Rodríguez receives a phone call from a CIA officer, Larry S., who proposes a special assignment for him in South America in which he will use his skills in unconventional warfare, counter-guerrilla operations and communications. The assignment is to assist the Bolivians in tracking down and capturing Che Guevara and his band. His partner will be "Eduardo González" and Rodríguez is to use the cover name "Félix Ramos Medina." (Rodríguez:1, 148)

JUNE 26-30, 1967: Soviet Premier Aleksey Kosygin visits Cuba for discussions with Fidel Castro. According to a CIA intelligence cable, the primary purpose of his "trip to Havana June 26-30, 1967 was to inform Castro concerning the Middle East Crisis...A secondary but important reason for the trip was to discuss with Castro the subject of Cuban revolutionary activity in Latin America." The Soviet Premier criticizes the dispatch of Che Guevara to Bolivia and accuses Castro of "harming the communist cause through his sponsorship of guerrilla activity...and through providing support to various anti-government groups, which although they claimed to be "socialist" or communist, were engaged in disputes with the "legitimate" Latin American communist parties, those favored by the USSR." In reply Castro stated that Cuba will support the "right of every Latin American to contribute to the liberation of his country." (CIA Intelligence Information Cable, 10/17/67)

AUGUST 2, 1967: Rodríguez and González arrive in La Paz, Bolivia. They are met by their case officer, Jim, another CIA agent, and a Bolivian immigration officer. The CIA station in La Paz is run by John Tilton; eventually the CIA’s Guevara task force is joined by another anti-Castro Cuban-American agent, Gustavo Villoldo. (Rodríguez:1, 162)

(ed : - U2 : Originally built as a U-2R, first flew as N803X on 28 Aug 1967)

AUGUST 31, 1967: The Bolivian army scores its first victory against the guerrillas, wiping out one-third of Che’s men. José Castillo Chávez, also known as Paco, is captured and the guerrillas are forced to retreat. Che’s health begins to deteriorate. (James, 250, 269)

SEPTEMBER 3, 1967: Félix Rodríguez flies with Major Arnaldo Saucedo from Santa Cruz to Vallegrande to interrogate Paco. (Rodríguez: 1, 167)

SEPTEMBER 15, 1967: The Bolivian Government air-drops leaflets offering a $4,200 reward for the capture of Che Guevara. (NYT 9/16/67)

SEPTEMBER 18, 1967: Fifteen members of a Communist group, who were providing supplies to the guerrillas in the southeastern jungles of Bolivia, are arrested. (NYT 9/19/67)

SEPTEMBER 22, 1967: Che’s guerrillas arrive at Alto Seco village in Bolivia. Inti Peredo, a Bolivian guerrilla, gives the villagers a lecture on the objectives of the guerrilla movement. The group leaves later that night after purchasing a large amount of food. (Harris, 123) According to Jon Lee Anderson’s account, Che takes the food from a grocery store without paying for it after discovering that the local authorities in Alto Seco have left to inform the army about the guerrilla’s position. (Anderson, 785)

SEPTEMBER 22, 1967: Guevara Arze, the Bolivian Foreign Minister, provides evidence to the Organization of American States to prove that Che Guevara is indeed leading the guerrilla operations in Bolivia. Excerpts taken from captured documents, including comparisons of handwriting, fingerprints and photographs, suggests that the guerrillas are comprised of Cubans, Peruvians, Argentineans and Bolivians. The foreign minister’s presentation draws a loud applause from the Bolivian audience, and he gives his assurance that "we’re not going to let anybody steal our country away from us. Nobody, at any time." (NYT 9/23/67)

SEPTEMBER 24, 1967: Che and his men arrive, exhausted and sick, at Loma Larga, a ranch close to Alto Seco. All but one of the peasants flee upon their arrival. (Harris, 123)

SEPTEMBER 26, 1967: The guerrillas move to the village of La Higuera and immediately notice that all the men are gone. The villagers have previously been warned that the guerrillas are in the area and they should send any information on them to Vallegrande. The remaining villagers tell the guerrillas that most of the people are at a celebration in a neighboring town called Jahue. (Harris, 123)

1 p.m.: As they are about to depart for Jahue, the rebels hear shots coming from the road and are forced to stay in the village and defend themselves. Three guerrillas are killed in the gun battle: Roberto (Coco) Peredo, a Bolivian guerrilla leader who was one of Che’s most important men; "Antonio," believed to be Cuban; and "Julio," likely a Bolivian. Che orders his men to evacuate the village along a road leading to Rio Grande. The army high command and the Barriento government consider this encounter a significant victory. Indeed, Che notes in his diary that La Higuera has caused great losses for him in respect to his rebel cell. (Harris 123,124; NYT 9/28/67))

CIA agent, Félix Rodríguez, under the alias, "Captain Ramos," urges Colonel Zenteno to move his Rangers battalion from La Esperanza headquarters to Vallegrande. The death of Antonio, the vanguard commander [also called Miguel by Rodríguez], prompts Rodríguez to conclude that Che must be close by. Colonel Zenteno argues that the battalion has not yet finished their training, but he will move them as soon as this training is complete. Convinced that he knows Che’s next move, Rodríguez continues pressuring Zenteno to order the 2nd Ranger battalion into combat. (Rodríguez:1, 184)

SEPTEMBER 26-27, 1967: After the battle of La Higueras, the Ranger Battalion sets up a screening force along the river San Antonio to prevent exfiltration of the guerrilla force. During the mission, the troops captures a guerrilla known as "Gamba." He appears to be in poor health and is poorly clothed. This produces an immediate morale effect on the troops because they notice that the guerrillas are not as strong as they thought. "Gamba" says that he had separated from the group and was traveling in hope of contacting "Ramón" (Guevara). (Dept. of Defense Intelligence Information Report - 11/28/67).

SEPTEMBER 29, 1967: Colonel Zenteno is finally persuaded by Rodríguez, and he moves the 2nd Ranger battalion to Vallegrande. Rodríguez joins these six hundred and fifty men who have been trained by U.S. Special Forces Major "Pappy" Shelton. (Rodríguez:1, 184)

SEPTEMBER 30, 1967: Che and his group are trapped by the army in a jungle canyon in Valle Serrano, south of the Grande River. (NYT 10/1/67)

OCTOBER 7, 1967: The last entry in Che’s diary is recorded exactly eleven months since the inauguration of the guerrilla movement. The guerrillas run into an old woman herding goats. They ask her if there are soldiers in the area but are unable to get any reliable information. Scared that she will report them, they pay her 50 pesos to keep quiet. In Che’s diary it is noted that he has "little hope" that she will do so. (Harris, 126; CIA Weekly Review, "The Che Guevara Diary," 12/15/67) Evening: Che and his men stop to rest in a ravine in Quebrada del Yuro. (Harris, 126)

OCTOBER 8, 1967: The troops receive information that there is a band of 17 guerrillas in the Churro Ravine. They enter the area and encounters a group of 6 to 8 guerrillas, opens fire, and killed two Cubans, "Antonio" and "Orturo." "Ramon" (Guevara) and "Willy" try to break out in the direction of the mortar section, where Guevara is wounded in the lower calf. (Dept. of Defense Intelligence Information Report - 11/28/67)

OCTOBER 8, 1967: A peasant women alerts the army that she heard voices along the banks of the Yuro close to the spot where it runs along the San Antonio river. It is unknown whether it is the same peasant woman that the guerrillas ran into previously. (Rojo 218) By morning, several companies of Bolivian Rangers are deployed through the area that Guevara’s Guerrillas are in. They take up positions in the same ravine as the guerrillas in Quebrada del Yuro. (Harris,126) About 12 p.m.: A unit from General Prado’s company, all recent graduates of the U.S. Army Special Forces training camp, confronts the guerrillas, killing two soldiers and wounding many others. (Harris, 127) 1:30 p.m.: Che’s final battle commences in Quebrada del Yuro. Simon Cuba (Willy) Sarabia, a Bolivian miner, leads the rebel group. Che is behind him and is shot in the leg several times. Sarabia picks up Che and tries to carry him away from the line of fire. The firing starts again and Che’s beret is knocked off. Sarabia sits Che on the ground so he can return the fire. Encircled at less than ten yards distance, the Rangers concentrate their fire on him, riddling him with bullets. Che attempts to keep firing, but cannot keep his gun up with only one arm. He is hit again on his right leg, his gun is knocked out of his hand and his right forearm is pierced. As soldiers approach Che he shouts, "Do not shoot! I am Che Guevara and worth more to you alive than dead." The battle ends at approximately 3:30 p.m. Che is taken prisoner. (Rojo, 219; James, 14) Other sources claim that Sarabia is captured alive and at about 4 p.m. he and Che are brought before Captain Prado. Captain Prado orders his radio operator to signal the divisional headquarters in Vallegrande informing them that Che is captured. The coded message sent is "Hello Saturno, we have Papá !" Saturno is the code for Colonel Joaquin Zenteno, commandant of the Eighth Bolivian Army Division, and Papá is code for Che. In disbelief, Colonel Zenteno asks Capt. Prado to confirm the message. With confirmation, "general euphoria" erupts among the divisional headquarters staff. Colonel Zenteno radios Capt. Prado and tells him to immediately transfer Che and any other prisoners to La Higuera. (Harris, 127) In Vallegrande, Félix Rodríguez receives the message over the radio: "Papá cansado," which means "Dad is tired." Papá is the code for foreigner, implying Che. Tired signifies captured or wounded. (Rodríguez:1, 185) Stretched out on a blanket, Che is carried by four soldiers to La Higuera, seven kilometers away. Sarabia is forced to walk behind with his hands tied against his back. Just after dark the group arrives in La Higuera and both Che and Sarabia are put into the one-room schoolhouse. Later that night, five more guerrillas are brought in. (Harris, 127) Official army dispatches falsely report that Che is killed in the clash in southeastern Bolivia, and other official reports confirm the killing of Che and state that the Bolivian army has his body. However, the army high command does not confirm this report. (NYT 10/10/67)

OCTOBER 9, 1967: Walt Rostow sends a memorandum to the President with tentative information that the Bolivians have captured Che Guevara. The Bolivian unit engaged in the operation was the one that had been trained by the U.S. (Rostow 10/9/67)

OCTOBER 9, 1967: 6:15 a.m.: Félix Rodríguez arrives by helicopter in La Higuera, along with Colonel Joaquín Zenteno Anaya. Rodríguez brings a powerful portable field radio and a camera with a special four-footed stand used to photograph documents. He quietly observes the scene in the schoolhouse, and records what he sees, finding the situation "gruesome" with Che lying in dirt, his arms tied behind his back and his feet bound together, next to the bodies of his friends. He looks "like a piece of trash" with matted hair, torn clothes, and wearing only pieces of leather on his feet for shoes. In one interview, Rodríguez states that, " I had mixed emotions when I first arrived there. Here was the man who had assassinated many of my countrymen. And nevertheless, when I saw him, the way he looked....I felt really sorry for him." (Rodríguez:2) Rodríguez sets up his radio and transmits a coded message to the CIA station in either Peru or Brazil to be retransmitted to Langley headquarters. Rodríguez also starts to photograph Che’s diary and other captured documents. Later, Rodríguez spends time talking with Che and takes a picture with him. The photos that Rodríguez takes are preserved by the CIA. (Anderson, 793; Rodríguez:1, 193) 10 am: The Bolivian officers are faced with the question of what to do with Che. The possibility of prosecuting him is ruled out because a trial would focus world attention on him and could generate sympathetic propaganda for Che and for Cuba. It is concluded that Che must be executed immediately, but it is agreed upon that the official story will be that he died from wounds received in battle. Félix Rodríguez receives a call from Vallegrande and is ordered by the Superior Command to conduct Operation Five Hundred and Six Hundred. Five hundred is the Bolivian code for Che and six hundred is the order to kill him. Rodríguez informs Colonel Zenteno of the order, but also tells him that the U.S. government has instructed him to keep Che alive at all costs. The CIA and the U.S. government have arranged helicopters and airplanes to take Che to Panama for interrogation. However, Colonel Zenteno says he must obey his own orders and Rodríguez decides, "to let history take its course," and to leave the matter in the hands of the Bolivians. (Anderson, 795; Harris 128, 129; Rodríguez:1, 193; Rodríguez:2) Rodríguez realizes that he cannot stall any longer when a school teacher informs him that she has heard a news report on Che’s death on her radio. Rodríguez enters the schoolhouse to tell Che of the orders from the Bolivian high command. Che understands and says, "It is better like this ... I never should have been captured alive." Che gives Rodríguez a message for his wife and for Fidel, they embrace and Rodríguez leaves the room. (Rodríguez:2; Anderson, 796) According to one source, the top ranking officers in La Higuera instruct the noncommissioned officers to carry out the order and straws are drawn to determine who will execute Che. Just before noon, having drawn the shortest straw, Sergeant Jaime Terán goes to the schoolhouse to execute Che. Terán finds Che propped up against the wall and Che asks him to wait a moment until he stands up. Terán is frightened, runs away and is ordered back by Colonel Selich and Colonel Zenteno. "Still trembling" he returns to the schoolhouse and without looking at Che’s face he fires into his chest and side. Several soldiers, also wanting to shoot Che, enter the room and shoot him. (Harris, 129) Félix Rodríguez has stated that, "I told the Sargento to shoot....and I understand that he borrowed an M-2 carbine from a Lt. Pérez who was in the area." Rodríguez places the time of the shooting at 1:10 p.m. Bolivian time. (Rodríguez:2) In Jon Lee Anderson’s account, Sergeant Terán volunteers to shoot Che. Che's last words, which are addressed to Terán, are "I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, you are only going to kill a man." Terán shoots Che in the arms and legs and then in Che's thorax, filling his lungs with blood. (Anderson, 796)

OCTOBER 9, 1967: Early in the morning, the unit receives the order to execute Guevara and the other prisoners. Lt. Pérez asks Guevara if he wishes anything before his execution. Guevara replies that he only wishes to "die with a full stomach." Pérez asks him if he is a "materialist" and Guevara answers only "perhaps." When Sgt. Terán (the executioner) enters the room, Guevara stands up with his hands tied and states, "I know what you have come for I am ready." Terán tells him to be seated and leaves the room for a few moments. While Terán was outside, Sgt. Huacka enters another small house, where "Willy" was being held, and shoots him. When Terán comes back, Guevara stands up and refuses to be seated saying: "I will remain standing for this." Terán gets angry and tells Guevara to be seated again. Finally, Guevara tells him: "Know this now, you are killing a man." Terán fires his M2 Carbine and kills him. (Dept. of Defense Intelligence Information Report - 11/28/67). Later that afternoon: Senior army officers and CIA Agent, Félix Rodríguez, leave La Higuera by helicopter for army headquarters in Vallegrande. Upon landing, Rodríguez quickly leaves the helicopter knowing that Castro’s people will be there looking for CIA agents. Pulling a Bolivian army cap over his face, he is not noticed by anyone. (Rodríguez:1, 12; Harris, 130) Che’s body is flown to Vallegrande by helicopter and later fingerprinted and embalmed. (NYT 10/11/67) General Ovando, Chief of Bolivian Armed Forces, states that just before he died, Che said, "I am Che Guevara and I have failed." (James, 8)

...

"NOVEMBER 8, 1967: The CIA reports that Cuba is threatening assassin a prominent Bolivian figure, such as President Barrientos or General Ovando, in revenge of Che Guevara’s death. ( CIA cable, 11/8/67)"

..."

TIME

"The Quebrada del Yuro, deep in the stifling Bolivian jungle 75 miles north of Camiri, is a steep and narrow ravine that is covered with dense foliage. There, early last week, two companies of Bolivian Rangers totaling more than 180 men split into two columns and quietly stalked a handful of guerrillas. Shortly after noon, the troops spotted their men, and both sides opened up with their rifles and automatic weapons at a withering, point-blank range of 150 feet. After a lengthy fight, four Rangers and three guerrillas lay dead, and four other guerrillas had been captured.

One of the prisoners was no ordinary guerrilla. He was Ernesto ("Che") Guevara, 39, the elusive Marxist firebrand, guerrilla expert and former second in command to Fidel Castro whose name had be come a legend after his disappearance from Cuba 2| years ago. Since that time, much of the world had thought Che dead (perhaps even at Castro's hands) until his presence in Bolivia was dramatically confirmed a short time ago (TIME, Sept. 29)."

"SEPTEMBER 26, 1967: The guerrillas move to the village of La Higuera and immediately notice that all the men are gone. The villagers have previously been warned that the guerrillas are in the area and they should send any information on them to Vallegrande.

CIA agent, Félix Rodríguez, under the alias, "Captain Ramos," urges Colonel Zenteno to move his Rangers battalion from La Esperanza headquarters to Vallegrande. The death of Antonio, the vanguard commander [also called Miguel by Rodríguez], prompts Rodríguez to conclude that Che must be close by.... Convinced that he knows Che’s next move, Rodríguez continues pressuring Zenteno to order the 2nd Ranger battalion into combat. (Rodríguez:1, 184)

SEPTEMBER 29, 1967: Colonel Zenteno is finally persuaded by Rodríguez, and he moves the 2nd Ranger battalion to Vallegrande. Rodríguez joins these six hundred and fifty men who have been trained by U.S. Special Forces Major "Pappy" Shelton. (Rodríguez:1, 184)

SEPTEMBER 30, 1967: Che and his group are trapped by the army in a jungle canyon in Valle Serrano, south of the Grande River. (NYT 10/1/67)

OCTOBER 7, 1967: The last entry in Che’s diary..."

[Len Colby]

Hyde also told me:

In 1993 and 1996 I attended the 4080 SRW reunion in Del Rio where I spoke with the Deputy Commander of Operations at the time who headed the safety and accident investigation. He told me exactly what I wrote. I believe him.

Regarding the possibility that his dad’s plane had been made to crash as an aborted pretext for an invasion he wrote (emphasis Hyde's):

If it was, the crash occurred at a really silly place to make a connection. He went down 40 miles NORTHWEST of Key West, far away from the shores of Castro's Cuba.

Len, from the DMN story 11.21.63 originally posted by Robert: Military sources in Washington said the U-2 pilot did not radio any indication of trouble before the crash and the plane presumably went down due to mechanical trouble. However they said the crash could have been the result of a Cuban attack. Obviously then, the Military did not think it entirely preposterous that the Cubans would down a plane 100 or 180 miles (depending on which story, if any, had the distance right) from Cuba's coastline.

After 2 years it’s hard to remember all the context but I’ll give it a try. I’m willing to concede this point at least partially. Perhaps it was possible that a U-2 could have been shot down near Cuba and crashed where it did. But if the plan was to frame Cuba it would have more sense to have made it crash closer to the island. Also the story was preliminary, the next day the same paper reported (from an AP story) that “the high flying reconnaissance aircraft suddenly vanished from radar scopes at 10:32 AM. Wednesday, some 40 miles northwest of Key West” This better fits what Hyde III and others have said, a U-2 would plummet rather quickly once it had been damaged or destabilized.

The story actually undermines the “theory” a 11/21 story would have been written on 11/20, why would they provoke the crash and kill JFK as a pretext for invading Cuba but immediately back off blaming the Communist government for the former even before the latter took place?

Additionally, in the context of a Northwoods type operation, it made no sense to bring it down over Cuba as they would have every right to do that - and had done so already. In any event, U2 flights did not have to actually fly over the exact locations of interest. Quality images could be obtained from 100's of miles away.

You can change Hyde III’s comments to “close to Cuba” and the point still stands. If "quality images could be obtained from 100's of miles away" why did Maj. Anderson fly over the island during the Missile Crisis?

Since both Len and Joe Hyde's son place so much import on where the wreckage was found, I am kind of surprised to go back to this thread and not see any replies to my points.

Here's another quote from a contemporaneous report:

"Military sources in Washington did not discount entirely the possibility of a Cuban attack on the U2. If it had been shot over Cuba, the high-flying plane could have glided as far as the area where it crashed." Panama City Herald, Nov 21, 1963

See above

Also, the U-2 was flimsy and the thin air would amplify the damage, surely downing the plane near the point of impact (or proximity explosion which took out Rudy Anderson and Gary Powers). If ANYTHING exploded near it, it went down immediately. There was no "nursing" the plane back. Therefore, if you are going to make a crash of a U-2 a credible reason to invade Cuba, wouldn't it make sense to explode it OVER the island, not northwest of Key West?

No, it would not make more sense. See above as to why. However, even shooting down the U2 in neutral or US waters may not, in isolation, have been sufficient to launch an attack on the tiny island. To quote from the Northwoods document: Such a plan would enable a logical build-up of incidents to be combined with other seemingly unrelated events to camoflage the ultimate objective and create the necessary impression of Cuban rashness and irresponsibility on a large scale...The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba... . The shoot-down, followed by an attempted or actual assassination of the President though, would surely have seemed sufficient. Then Oswald got arrested. Too bad.

I don’t want to venture too much into the assassination but according to nearly all theories (other than the WCR) LHO getting arrested was part of the plan. In any case how would having someone who: had defected to Russia, subscribed (supposedly) to Communist publications and been a member of the Fair Play for Cuba committee complicated a plan to blame Cuba? In any case the media and Pentagon were saying the plane probably was NOT shot down even before the assassination let alone by the time of LHO’s arrest.

He wrote the following regarding Cuba’s “Gringo” “on the rocks” story:

“We had a Georgia US Congressman look into this for us in 1977. In fact, my grandfather, Joe Hyde, Sr was all over it (I was in 7th grade). There never was any U-2 pilot in ice in Cuba. They did retrieve a body or two of some Bay of Pigs mercenaries, but not US G.I.'s

I followed up on this story again in 1987 and talked via phone to a lawyer involved in this trip. I believe he was from Denver. He said the newspapers got it all wrong and never followed up. The body was of a B-25/26 mercenary pilot or crew member. No U-2 pilot; no US GI.

Also, it would be quite remarkable for the Cubans to retrieve the body of a U-2 pilot 40 miles NORTHWEST of Key West when US military search and rescue craft and personnel were in the vicinity within 10 minutes of the crash!”

They claimed they had a "Johnson", though no one by that name was shot down. What would be their purpose in lying about having a pilot, given the difficulties you point out? Let's just say that at least one plan in Northwoods involved supplying pilots with false ID.

I will add that Northwoods, as an idea, had been circulating since toward the end of Eisenhower's presidency. I believe there were aborted attempts, or attempts gone awry, at providing Northwoods style pretexts for invasion both before and after the Northwoods document was authored in March, 1962.

Hyde III’s explanation that it was “mercenary pilot or crew member” seems more likely; as he and I pointed it seems very unlikely that the Cubans could have recovered Hyde’s body from the crash location at all even more so without being noticed by the US. Even if he had fake ID they would have figured out his real name due to the press reports. They simply could have been confused / misinformed about the body’s origin or figured they could get more for a “U-2” than a pilot’s cadaver that mercenary’s one. From my understanding of Operation Northwoods fake ID’s would be used in scenarios were no one was killed or prisoners were substituted for other “victims”. In any case how would falsely deniying the body was Hyde’s fit into the “theory”?

Also the burden of proof has become reversed. There is no basis for the crash to be considered suspicious. The main basis for Robert’s “theory” was the supposed under reporting of the Hyde crash which turned out to be a fallacy on his part. Novelty makes stories newsworthy; the whole world watched Apollo 11 but Apollo 13 got almost no coverage and people complained about “I Love Lucy” reruns being interrupted for updates about the 3rd manned mission to the Moon.

Additionally the logic is backwards, the story was supposedly under reported and this is evidence the original plan was to play the incident up as much as possible as a pretext for invasion? They changed their minds for reasons yet to be explained and were called off the media blitz just hours after the incident but not the shootdown?. The “theory” makes no sense and is devoid of any supporting evidence. It also lacks a plausible explaination about how the plane was made to crash.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Len Colby

[John Dolva]

got a bit crosseyed by all the cuban references, so this my have been answwed, if so please direct to post.

re Che':

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2local.html

{ed : - Lost on 28 July 1966 near Oruro, Bolivia. USAF Pilot: Robert D. Hickman became unconscious and his plane flew out over the Gulf of Mexico, eventually crashing into the side of a mountain, destroying the plane. Robert Hickman died in the crash.

( eventually? this is quite a distance)

- >>>Lost<<<(???) on 19 December 1956. Pilot: Bob Ericson survived. Also (???) this a/c has been attributed to a crash on 8 Oct. 1966, see 390/6950) - (how many phoenixes arose, which was really which plane??

______________

Is it possible that the U2 was on the last leg of longer mission, perhaps from Japan to England or Germany or Spain and perhaps also the pilot acted as a courier?. ie not finding his body means not finding anything he may have been carrying.

On a longer mission there may be a more vulnerable pilot subject to the tendency to blackout and then a long glide-path till the 'plummet'?

So, they cobble planes together. id's change.

You gotta think about if the plane had been on a such glide-path to home base, with the pilot blacked out, then the over / under shoot and a line from there (on a globe not an always approximate 2d projection) and home base may yield a possible origin?

[Greg Parker]

After 2 years it’s hard to remember all the context but I’ll give it a try. I’m willing to concede this point at least partially. Perhaps it was possible that a U-2 could have been shot down near Cuba and crashed where it did. But if the plan was to frame Cuba it would have more sense to have made it crash closer to the island. Also the story was preliminary, the next day the same paper reported (from an AP story) that “the high flying reconnaissance aircraft suddenly vanished from radar scopes at 10:32 AM. Wednesday, some 40 miles northwest of Key West” This better fits what Hyde III and others have said, a U-2 would plummet rather quickly once it had been damaged or destabilized.

The story actually undermines the “theory” a 11/21 story would have been written on 11/20, why would they provoke the crash and kill JFK as a pretext for invading Cuba but immediately back off blaming the Communist government for the former even before the latter took place?

Len, I think I answered this previously. The Northwood document says the "attack" would take place in international waters. Cuba had every right to shoot down a plane violating its airspace.

If it disappeared off the radar screen quickly, why was this fact not known by the brass who advised that they "did not discount entirely the possibility of a Cuban attack on the U2 [because] If it had been shot over Cuba, the high-flying plane could have glided as far as the area where it crashed."

You can change Hyde III’s comments to “close to Cuba” and the point still stands. If "quality images could be obtained from 100's of miles away" why did Maj. Anderson fly over the island during the Missile Crisis?

In 1960, the U2's 73-B camera could take photos up to 200 miles from the target. Presumably this range had increased by '63.

As to why Anderson flew over the island, I can only imagine the had no exact locations to photograph from a long range.

I don’t want to venture too much into the assassination but according to nearly all theories (other than the WCR) LHO getting arrested was part of the plan. In any case how would having someone who: had defected to Russia, subscribed (supposedly) to Communist publications and been a member of the Fair Play for Cuba committee complicated a plan to blame Cuba? In any case the media and Pentagon were saying the plane probably was NOT shot down even before the assassination let alone by the time of LHO’s arrest.

Who gives a toss about what most theories advocate? Especially since your take on it seems way off base.

How would all those things you allot to Oswald complicate blaming Cuba with a trial looming? The complication would be this: the fact being uncovered that none of those things were as they seemed on the surface.

As for what the media and Pentagon were saying about Hyde's u2 prior the assassination - you want to highlight the door being half shut on having the appearance of a shootdown. But that's just another way of saying the door was half open to such a suggestion. It was not slammed shut until after 11/22.

[Len Colby]

Before we go any further please answer a few questions:

Do you really believe the theory you seem to be advocating or are you just playing “devil’s advocate”?

In any case can you spell out a rational scenario taking the known facts into account?

What, if anything do you think was suspicious about the incident? The U2 was a crash prone plane and the incident got press coverage comparable to other crashes.

After 2 years it’s hard to remember all the context but I’ll give it a try. I’m willing to concede this point at least partially. Perhaps it was possible that a U-2 could have been shot down near Cuba and crashed where it did. But if the plan was to frame Cuba it would have more sense to have made it crash closer to the island. Also the story was preliminary, the next day the same paper reported (from an AP story) that “the high flying reconnaissance aircraft suddenly vanished from radar scopes at 10:32 AM. Wednesday, some 40 miles northwest of Key West” This better fits what Hyde III and others have said, a U-2 would plummet rather quickly once it had been damaged or destabilized.

The story actually undermines the “theory” a 11/21 story would have been written on 11/20, why would they provoke the crash and kill JFK as a pretext for invading Cuba but immediately back off blaming the Communist government for the former even before the latter took place?

Len, I think I answered this previously. The Northwood document says the "attack" would take place in international waters. Cuba had every right to shoot down a plane violating its airspace.

Note that in light of your comments I refined my position to “near”/”close”/”closer to” rather than over Cuba. Hyde’s plane crashed and seems to have problems only well beyond the range of Cuba anti-aircraft defenses. The S-75 (NATO designation SA-2) anti-aircraft missile only had a range of 19 miles*, Hyde crashed 188 miles from the island, it seems unlikely (if not impossible) for his plane to have flown 170+ miles damaged especially since it seems to have plummeted precipitously and there was no distress call.

* http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheet...heet.asp?id=334

GREG: "If it disappeared off the radar screen quickly, why was this fact not known by the brass who advised that they

"did not discount entirely the possibility of a Cuban attack on the U2 [because] If it had been shot over Cuba, the high-flying plane could have glided as far as the area where it crashed.""

What is your basis for assuming the people who spoke anonymously to the press were “brass”? They seem to have spoken to the press with in a few hours of the attack, they might not have been aware of the radar data or the U2’s vulnerabilities. They might not have wanted to make public how unstable the plane was. Hyde’s account matches a news account from the next day, do think he is lying or simply misinformed? Do you presume to understand what happened better than he does?

You can change Hyde III’s comments to “close to Cuba” and the point still stands. If "quality images could be obtained from 100's of miles away" why did Maj. Anderson fly over the island during the Missile Crisis?

In 1960, the U2's 73-B camera could take photos up to 200 miles from the target. Presumably this range had increased by '63.

The Blackbirds site lists four U2 crashes (in addition to Powers’ and Anderson’s) over enemy territory (the 1st 3 were Taiwanese):

56-6688 art.#355 Crashed in 1 November 1963 near Jiangxi, China

56-6691 art.#358 Lost on 10 January 1965 near Peking, China

56-6695 art.#362 Crashed on 7 July 1964 near Fujian, China

56-6950 art.#390 Lost on 8 October 1966 near Bein Hoa, Vietnam

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2local.html

So it seems they repeatedly flew over enemy territory why would they do so if they had no reason to? Can you site a source for your claims bout the 73-B? What ever the camera’s capabilities the closer it got to its subject the better the images.

GREG: "As to why Anderson flew over the island, I can only imagine the had no exact locations to photograph from a long range."

This makes no sense IF the U2 could safely take good photos from international airspace the only reason to risk it being shot down would be to take close ups of specific targets that would not be possible otherwise.

I don’t want to venture too much into the assassination but according to nearly all theories (other than the WCR) LHO getting arrested was part of the plan. In any case how would having someone who: had defected to Russia, subscribed (supposedly) to Communist publications and been a member of the Fair Play for Cuba committee complicated a plan to blame Cuba? In any case the media and Pentagon were saying the plane probably was NOT shot down even before the assassination let alone by the time of LHO’s arrest.

Who gives a toss about what most theories advocate? Especially since your take on it seems way off base.

How would all those things you allot to Oswald complicate blaming Cuba with a trial looming? The complication would be this: the fact being uncovered that none of those things were as they seemed on the surface.

Now you’ve got me confused, YOU were the one who suggested Oswald’s arrest would have spoiled a plot to blame Cuba. I’m not the only person who ‘allots’ such things to LHO even John (Simkin) says he was a longtime Marxist sympathizer who was a member of Fair Play for Cuba*. None of this is under dispute. Why does my “take on it [seem] way off base”?

Perhaps my historiography is off but it’s my impression that just as press accounts were always dismissive of the possibility Hyde was shot down there was no attempt (in the MSM) to link Cuba to the assassination. To the contrary the “official story” from the get go was that Oswald was a ‘lone nut’.

* http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKoswald.htm

GREG: "As for what the media and Pentagon were saying about Hyde's u2 prior the assassination - you want to highlight the door being half shut on having the appearance of a shootdown. But that's just another way of saying the door was half open to such a suggestion. It was not slammed shut until after 11/22."

Let’s look at the relevant portions of the press accounts (emphasis added):

DMN 11-21-1963 : “Military sources in Washington said the U-2 pilot did not radio any indication of trouble before the crash and the plane presumably went down due to mechanical trouble. However they said the crash could have been the result of a Cuban attack.”

DMN 11-22-1963: the high flying reconnaissance aircraft suddenly vanished from radar scopes at 10:32 AM. Wednesday, some 40 miles northwest of Key West and 188 miles north of the Cuban coast…Both the Defense Department and the Strategic Air Command headquarters at Omaha, Nebraska said that there was no evidence that the sleek one man plane which flies at admitted heights of 75,000 feet had met with hostile action over Cuba.

DMN 12-2-1963: “Cause of the crash has not been announced”

It would be fairer to say ¾ or 7/8 shut and the door (as far as I’m aware) was never “slammed shut”. In post #8 I linked some NYT articles about the crash if you are willing to pay for the privilege you can read them but I assume the language in them was similarly dismissive. So starting the day after the incident well before JFK was killed the Pentagon and press were discounting the possibility of a shoot down. The press accounts all indicated the plane HAD over flown Cuba which would have been a mitigating factor in a shoot down’s value as a casus belli.

EDIT - Formmated for clarity

Edited February 11, 2009 by Len Colby

[William Kelly]

Have you guys seen this? If so, sorry.

Memo for the White House Situation Room.

Various drafts of a press release, finally approved by the President,announcing that a U-2 aircraft was down near Key West. There was no evidence ofhostile action.

http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa....pl?item=105319

And this:

http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa....pl?item=105332

This JCS message to major military commands announces that on 8 March 1963 the President approved a comprehensive U.S. program dealing with the movement ofsubversives and subversive trainees. Actions to be taken include continuing airand sea surveillance, development of communications in Latin America, andestablishment of two more intelligence centers.

Tentative Agenda JCS - 15 April 1963 Re:

1) Comanders

2) Support of Military Budget

3) U-2 Flights - Cuba Contingency Plans

http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa...18,36-1734A.GIF

http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa...18,36-1730A.GIF

Tentative Agenda - JCS meeting with Sec Def. 1430, Monday, 11 Feb 1963

1. Low Level Photo Recognaissance - Cuba.

(No other items on the agenda - BK)

Edited February 12, 2009 by William Kelly

[Robin Unger]

Credit: John Woods Collection.

[Len Colby]

Have you guys seen this? If so, sorry.

Memo for the White House Situation Room.

Various drafts of a press release, finally approved by the President,announcing that a U-2 aircraft was down near Key West. There was no evidence ofhostile action.

http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa....pl?item=105319

Thanks for that Bill though there was a problem with your link the (hopefully) working url is: http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa....pl?item=105319

The documents are yet more evidence against an already far-fetched “theory”. On the day of the incident JFK approved a press release to be released by the SAC stating that “It is believed the cause of the crash was mechanical failure. There is no indication or evidence that any hostile action was involved”

Draft version: http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa...15,42-1430A.GIF

Final? version: http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa...15,42-1428A.GIF

There was debate about whether to use the word “believed” or "assumed" in the 1st sentence quoted above. The doubt was not over whether or not the crash was due to hostile action but rather whether of not “the pilot had a heart attack” (or presumably a similar health problem).

Just out of curiosity the memo is unsigned and addressed to “Mr. Smith” do any members know who that was or who the author was?

http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa...15,42-1429A.GIF

The day after JFK received a memo from the ‘National Military Command Center’ indicating that “At 201529z” (3:29 PM GMT) the plane was “observed in a rapid descent from 69,000 feet” and “faded from scope at 1633z”. The 6 was an obvious typo since it later says “an oil and fuel slick” with wreckage was located at 1537z. Thus the it only took 4 minutes for the plane to fall 69,000 feet (an average vertical speed of about 200 MPH). It also stated that “Divers reported ejection seat missing”

http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isa...15,42-1427A.GIF

PS: GREG

Can you provide a source for and/or a more complete version of the following quote?

"Military sources in Washington did not discount entirely the possibility of a Cuban attack on the U2. If it had been shot over Cuba, the high-flying plane could have glided as far as the area where it crashed." Panama City Herald, Nov 21, 1963

I searched for it with Google, Dogpile and Mamma and in the paper’s archives to no avail. I tried Newsbank as well but it only goes back to 1977. Obviously that was preceded by a sentence or two indicating that the presumed cause was mechanical (or pilot) failure. Indeed I found a partial version of the quote on a site of questionable reliability which attributes it to a Louisiana paper:

“The crux of the stories was what while the Strategic Air Command (SAC) theorized that the plane had experienced mechanical difficulties, military sources in Washington "...did not discount entirely the possibility of a Cuban attack on the U2,..””

http://codxxxx.blogspot.com/2005_12_01_codxxxx_archive.html

EDIT - typos fixed and blue text added

Edited February 12, 2009 by Len Colby