Bradley Ayers' THE ZENITH SECRET is out..

[Thomas Graves]

Modified. See next post, below...

Edited March 14, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Bill,

In reference to your fascinating post #10 on the first "page" of this thread, has the CIA changed its policy regarding identifying its officers and agents? I thought it was CIA policy to neither confirm nor deny it's employing of any particular person... (except, of course, in denying that the November '63 post-assassination FBI memo mentioning a "Mr. George Bush of the CIA" actually referred to one George Herbert Walker Bush, who, according to the CIA, wasn't working for the CIA at that time...) Right.

--Thomas

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________________________________________

Anyone?

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[Miles Scull]

Hello ("I can see for...") Miles Scull,

[...]

BK

_______________________________

William,

You wouldn't be making a "play on words" regarding Mr. Scull's first name and the title of a song by the proto punk-rock English band "The Whom," would you?

--Thomas

_______________________________

Senile sillies:

Atty boy, Tommy... Uh, no reference to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Atta) nor to The Who's rock opera "Tommy" (Tommy).

Thomas Graves & William Kelly = Atta boys = senile sillies:

[James Richards]

And after a phone conversation with Ayers, I can say that he too is disapointed in his book, and he did not write the captions to the photos, and the photo on p. 130 is not of "Karl." (Bill Kelly)

Bill,

Regarding this character Karl, was there a date given when he was supposedly thrown from the plane?

Also, is anyone in a position to scan this image and post it? It would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

James

[Ron Ecker]

Regarding this character Karl, was there a date given when he was supposedly thrown from the plane?

Ayers doesn't give the date, but based on his narrative of events it happened at most only a few days before Ayers completed a letter of resignation from the Regular Army, dated November 20, 1964.

[Miles Scull]

And after a phone conversation with Ayers, I can say that he too is disapointed in his book, and he did not write the captions to the photos, and the photo on p. 130 is not of "Karl." (Bill Kelly)

Bill,

Regarding this character Karl, was there a date given when he was supposedly thrown from the plane?

Also, is anyone in a position to scan this image and post it? It would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

James

James,

Karl was not thrown from the copter; he auto ejected; i.e., he rolled out unaided. That's Bradley's point!

Miles

Edited March 15, 2007 by Miles Scull

[William Kelly]

Thomas,

I don't know what the CIA's policies on employee acknowledgement are, now or before; why don't you call Paul Gimigliano, DDMPACIA - Deputy Director Media Public Affairs Central Intelligence Agency (703) 482-7677 - and ask him.

Phrase the question nicely and don't ask him why the CIA killed the President and his brother.

From what I recall however, didn't the CIA deny Frank Forini Sturgis was an employee right after Watergate, and in fact he was a Contract Agent, not a salaried employee, and Sturgis confirmed that.

Big difference. More than just medical benefits.

That's how come BEA, contracted out from USA, didn't have to have his book vetted by the CIA PRB, much to the dismay of Mr. Gimigliano.

As for character "Karl," the caption under the photo on p. 130 reads: "Karl was a wapons expert and logistics planner. Soon after witnessing his mysterious death, I resigned from the CIA and Army."

Nor am I convinced that "Karl" actually died, as I was told of an American special ops torture technique where they throw subjects out of helicopters that are only flying a yards above the ground. Maybe they just wanted BEA to think "Karl" died.

The photo shows a kneeling man with what appears to be a map giving instructions to two other faceless men. The man who is not "Karl" who you can see looks a little like Alan Arkan.

The photo of the man on p. 94 has a caption that reads: "The Cuban exiles who volunteered their services to the CIA were idealistically motivated but, as a general rule, pitifully unprepared for the dangers and physical demands of clandestine warfare."

The photo of a jungle fighter is of a man who looks like actor Richard Boon in fatigues.

Ayers' description of the physical condition of the Cubans he was training does not jive with Bill Tuner/Hickle version of the "Mambasies" being low paid, highly trained and motivated commandos, but I side with Ayers as he was there, and these guys were, after all, professionals turned nijas - doctors, lawyers, teachers and editors. Dr. Bosch, Prof. Cubella, publisher Fernandez. Well educated, but sloth, not fit.

Other photos of interest include the gatehouse to Zenith Technical Enterprises, BEA/aka Daniel B. Williams (1963), the v-hulled 20' V20 runabout, The Rex, Dynamite Pier/Key Largo, a 40' Chris Craft, an oil rig patrol craft, the pirate's lair safe house/Linderman Key from the water, BEA (1963) standing next to a single engine plane with tail # ?233U, Morales grave/ Wilcox, Az.

"Karl" is described as being Eastern European, as a lot of those JMWAVE guys seem to have worked together earlier in Berlin - Harvey, Parrott, Barnes, Bender,.....

BK

[James Richards]

Thanks, Guys, for the information.

Interesting.

Bill, I know the images you are talking about now.

BTW, does anyone have any solid information on a character named Karl Roher? This guy worked closely with Artime out of JM/WAVE and was close to Morales and Campbell. He may also have reported directly to Raul Hernandez but I am speculating there.

He used the alias Mike someone. Last name escapes me for now.

Might this be our mystery 'Karl'?

James

Edited March 15, 2007 by James Richards

[William Kelly]

The Zenith Secret – A CIA Insider Exposes the Secret War Against Cuba and the Plot that Killed the Kennedy Brothers, by Bradley E. Ayers (Vox Pop/Drench Kiss Media Corportation, 1022 Corelyou Road, Brooklyn, NY 11218. [www.voxpopnet.net]

A somewhat expanded and updated version of Bradley E. Ayers' "The War That Never Was" (Bobbs-Merrell, 1976), The Zenith Secret takes it's name from the Zenith Technical Enterprises, the cover company for the CIA's Miami, Florida, JMWAVE station at a remote part of the University of Miami campus.

As acknowledged by the CIA, since Ayers was a military officers assigned to covert work at the CIA and not a CIA officer, he did not sign a CIA secrecy oath and therefore his published work did not have to be vetted by the CIA's Publication Review Board (PRB), which did review and apparently approve other recently published books about William Harvey and by E. Howard Hunt.

I'm sure it is just a coincidence that both Harvey's biographer Bayard Stockton and Hunt both died of natural causes after completing their manuscripts but before their books were published.

So it is quite fitting and safe that Bradley Ayers would be holed up in a wilderness cabin with his dogs, and without a computer or contact with anyone other than his New York attorney, leaving us with book to ponder. And there is much to ponder if you can get past the small type, typos and errors that have Ayers threatening to sue his Vox Pop for going to print before he approved it.

Unlike Vox Pop, a radical, alternative coffeeshop/publishing operation run out of Brooklyn, New York, Bobbs-Merrill is a mainstream company. In 1973, Ayers' manuscript was reviewed by the managing editor, Tom Gervasi.

"Unbeknownst to me," writes Ayers, "…upon retirement from the CIA, bill Harvey went to work for Bobbs-Merrill. Apparently my manuscript was intercepted and the book's contents carefully reviewed by the agency and some of its entities. For the next two and a half years, I made revisions and rewrites of the manuscript at the suggestion of Gervasi. The pattern was one of whittling away at those parts that were the most sensitive or potentially embarrassing to the agency. Gervasi explained that Bobbs-Merrill could not accept the libel risks that portions of the book presented. One of the requirements set by Gervasi was that I change all the names of the major figures. Also excised was text on David Morales, and Ferrie's presence at JM/WAVE….just getting the book into print was better than no book at all."

I remember reading "The War that Never Was," and sharing Ayers' feelings that the operations he was connected with at JMWAVE were somehow connected to the assassination of President Kennedy, but it was hard to put a finger on exactly what that point was.

For Bradley E. Ayers, "The chain of events that lead me to [uSArmy Deputy Chief of Staff for Special Operations] Colonel Bond's office....began in the spring of 1963. I had held the rank of captain, and as a senior officer in this grade, nearing promotion to major, I was serving as the executive officer of the Army Ranger Training Camp at Eglin Air Force Base in northwest Florida….The mission of the Ranger Camp was to train volunteer officers and non-commissioned officers in the techniques of clandestine jungle and swamp operations for small units….Lt. Col. Hakala,…commanded the camp…on a sunny April day I made my move and requested a transfer."

Assigned to Colonel Bond, Special Warfare Section, Pentagon, tested by Lt. Colonel Garrett, and placed under General Rosson, deputy chief of staff, Special Warfare, Ayers was paired with Major Roderick, an engineer officer and demolitions expert.

They were ordered to stop saluting and transferred in civilian clothes to the Cuban Operations Center in the basement of the CIA HQ at Langley, Virginia, "We were first taken to a plush first floor office and introduced to the head of the Cuban desk, Mr. Des Fitzgerald,…then escorted to an adjacent office and introduced to Mr. William Harvey and Mr. James O'Connell, both of whom exhibited an unmistakable air of authority."

Flown to Florida, they were met by Bob Wall, assistant chief of operations at the station. "He went on to explain that the Miami headquarters was covered under a civilian corporation known as Zenith Technical Enterprises. The station, or 'company,' was located on the University of Miami's South Campus, adjacent to the abandoned Richmond Naval Air Station, which had been developed by the Navy during World War II as a dirigible base. A hurricane had devastated the immense hangers, and only girders and concrete foundations remained. The airfield was still intact but not open for use, except covertly by the agency….."

Officially attached to the U.S. Army Support Group, "…we met the station chief, Ted Shackley…I saw that they had missed no detail in setting up the false front Zenith Technical Enterprises. There were phony sales and production charts on the walls and businesses licenses from the state and federal governments….Shackley…welcomed us with poise, a Harvard air, and a Bostonian accent…His polished but informal manner put us at ease while his cool professionalism instilled confidence and respect….The station had separate, distinct departments: personnel…intelligence….operations…logistics…cover…security…maritime….communicat

ions…real estate….A separate branch had been set up, to develop training programs for all Cubans and foreign volunteers because of the need for competent agents."

"Bob Wall discussed the control the president's Special Group exercised over all operational activities. The station developed plans for operations and recruited, trained, and equipped Cuban exiles to accomplish specific missions….I was given the fictitious identity of Daniel B. Williams, a former military pilot employed by Paragon Air Service,…a legally chartered Delaware Corporation..."

"One of Bob's 'outside' agents took us to the Homestead marina where we met Rip Robertson, a former Marine. We'd already heard stories about the tall, rawboned man, his daring escapades at the Bay of Pigs, and, more recently, with his Cuban commando group. Rip, in his mid-forties, was a contract employee of fairly long standing with the CIA. Almost everyone held him in high esteem. Like Dave Morales, nicknamed 'the Big Indian' (a.k.a. El Indio), to whom he was directly responsible, Rip was said to be stubborn, independent, and jealously protective of his men…."

"…Rip filled us in on the details of the V-20 boats used in the commando strikes. Their 20 foot V-shaped hulls had been extensively modified and reinforced, at a cost of more than $30,000 each. They were made of double-thick fiberglass to withstand the beating of high speeds on the open seas and to damage from coral and objects submerged in shallow water. Armor plating was embedded in the fiberglass to protect the fuel tanks and the occupants. Plastic foam and rubber, installed in critical places, added protection against the bullets and afforded the crew some cushioning within the open cockpit. Equipped with twin 'souped up' hundred horsepower Greymarine inboard engines with retractable outdrives, the boats could travel 35 miles per hour while using no more than 75 percent of their full power….I recalled Bob telling us that the 'company' was searching for better, stronger craft, and was trying to improve the performance of the V-20…."

[ BK notes: Unknown to Bradley Ayers, at least until the November 1, 1963 New York Times ran a photo of the Rex on its front page, was the fact that the CIA ship was owned by Anastasio Somoza of Nicaragua, "one of the godfathers of the Bay of Pigs" and contracted to the Belcher Oil Company and "leased" as a cover to Collins Radio, of Richardson, Texas. Also unknown to Ayers is the fact that Collins collaborated with the CIA in Operation Paperclip, and utilized one of the former Nazi scientists in developing the swift boats for Cuban commandos in conjunction with General Dynamics. Like automobiles and planes, the boats used by the anti-Castro commandos left a paper trail that leads to the government and corporate defense contractors who participated in these operations. ]

"It took us about 40 minutes to reach Elliot Key…The CIA rented or purchased dwellings for agents' use and were considered safe and secure after being checked for outside surveillance….In one corner of the main room the Cubans had created a small shrine in memory of the men who had been killed or lost on earlier missions…."

"Training did not begin until mid-morning…The class was presented quite informally, in Spanish, by Rip's personal assistant, a Cuban named Felix….Rip showed us their newest piece of equipment, an item called a silent outboard motor which was about 50 percent quieter than the standard outboard. The Navy had developed it for underwater demolition missions…and were not available through civilian channels,…made by the Johnson Company…"

"Under temporary cover as a real estate broker and developer, I began to search for a training area….I was able to narrow down the possibilities to three general areas: upper Key Largo, including Lingerman Key and the 'Pirate's Lair' island safehouse owned by the University of Miami, the Old Card Sound Road area on the west side of upper Key Largo, and the Dynamite Pier area opposite and east of it; the Flamingo-Cape Sable area on the southernmost edge of the Everglades National Park."

At a social gathering at Key Biscayne, "After chatting for a few minutes, Colonel Bond….introduced me to some of the guests. I shook hands with Mr. Harvey and Mr. O'Connell. Both addressed me by my first name. There were several people I recognized from Zenith….I met Mr. Hunt, one of the few present there who looked the part of the classic intellectual espionage type. With Hunt was a Cuban introduced as Mr. Artime. I spotted Mr. Fitzgerald and he acknowledged me with a nod of his head. Colonel Bond told me it was Richard Helms, head of CIA covert operations, standing next to him. Relaxing from the Manhattans, I laughed, realizing that most of the people looked gentle and conservative. Yet when they pulled a string, men lived or died. These men around me were guiding our national policy toward Cuba."

"Suddenly there was a stir of activity near the courtyard door. The reception line was breaking up. Apparently the VIPs, whoever they were, were leaving. As they passed through the living room, they talked amiably with some of the guests. One man, his back to me, caught my eye. He was younger than the rest, and his full head of hair was conspicuously longer, reaching his collar. He was slim, with a wiry, catlike stance. He wore a sports coat and loose, baggy slacks. His hands were thrust into his pockets and his shoulders slumped forward, casual, almost sloppy. There was something about him I remembered from somewhere….It was Robert Kennedy, the president's brother, the attorney general! I wedged my way even closer, and as he began to walk toward the front door, I thrust out my hand, Robert Kennedy shook it, smiling warmly."

"Good to see you."

"It wasn't every day that one met the attorney general of the United States….I believed that President Kennedy's promise to the Bay of Pigs survivors was more than just an effort to pacify the exiles. There was something special going on. I was thrilled to have some small part of it."

"I threw myself into preparing the new training program with gusto after that,… Larry would continue to teach basic weapons, use of compass, land navigation, and other miscellaneous subjects,…Walter, a training instructor and Rudy would continue to teach tradecraft,…Theoretically, after these two phases of basic paramilitary instruction, the volunteer would have enough fundamental knowledge to go into the field. These exiles, whose primary function involved handling larger boats and engines, such as the V-20, would receive specialized training during this concluding period. Ideally, a team would complete training and shortly thereafter embark on a mission while still somewhere near peak."

"…It was summer now and the heat and mosquitoes were even more intense. Jose Clark and I had to devise and construct all of our own charts and training aids. I would sketch them out….Jose would then translate them to Spanish…Dewey, a former Navy warrant officer, was responsible for the small boat training. He had been working with two to five man infiltration teams for nearly a year….Before leaving for the Keys, I stopped by the station to pick up a few supplies. There was a note on my desk. I was to see Gordon Campbell, the deputy chief of station, before leaving. I'd never met him….Shackley's secretary Maggy told me to go to the second floor of the old barracks, a floor above my own office in the training branch. I'd never been in that area of the building."

"…Campbell's office was well-decorated, with all sorts of Zenith Technical Enterprise corporate plaques…his secretary buzzed him to my arrival and I was escorted into his plush office. Campbell came around his desk, introduced himself, and shook my hand. I judged his age to be around 40 and he appeared to be in robust physical condition. Dressed as if he had just come off the golf course, tanned, clean shaven, with trim build, balding blond hair, and penetrating blue eyes, he greeted me cordially. I liked him immediately."

"My good friend Ed Roderick….was coming for dinner….Rod had been drinking before he got to the house that night. In fact, he confided, he and the recently arrived Colonel Rosselli were working on a plan to ambush Fidel Castro and had been on a weekend binge together. They'd become close friends as they spent time together; their drinking friendship was a natural extension of their on-duty relationship."

"…He told me Rosselli had high level Mafia and Havana connections….The last American attempts to penetrate with larger craft such as the Rex and Leda had ended in disaster….In the future, Rod said, operations hoped to rely on smaller, faster, lightly armed boats that could make it all the way across the Florida Straights…Several new V-20s had been developed with a fuel capacity sufficient to assure at least a one way crossing of the straights…."

"About 30 minutes before we were scheduled to sail, two fish delivery trucks pulled into the warehouse, and, after the overhead doors rolled closed, men began jumping out. It was the commando team, previously hidden somewhere in Tampa. I was surprised to see familiar faces among the team and to be greeted again by my old friend Julio from the Point Mary safehouse…Martinez and Julio gave the commandos their ship bulleting assignments…..we were turning eastward off the Dry Tortugas and heading toward Cay Sal. Julio the commando team leader, had lived in the Isabela area and knew the…surrounding terrain…."

"…Bosch, with non-attributable CIA support, had a base of operations and a safehouse just north of Key West, near Oceanside Marina. He kept his boats there…a big, old decaying two-story stucco mansion a short distance from the marina….The V-20s were docked at the marina and could be brought around to the canal for lading. On arrival I was delighted to find my old friend Julio Fernandez the man in charge…."

[ BK notes: Now the name Fernandez might be as common as Smith or Kelly, but those familiar with JFK assassination lure know the name very well. It was on the evening of the assassination, November 22, 1963, that Clare Booth Luce received a telephone call from Fernandez. In the summer of 1963 she wrote an article about her sponsorship of an anti-Castro Cuban exile commando boat team, lead by Fernandez. Now with the President's murder, Fernandez told her that his group had information on Lee Harvey Oswald, the accused assassin. Also recall the extended search House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) investigator Gaeton Fonzi spent in pursuit of Julio Fernandez, who Clare Booth Luce later told him was probably a "war name," and not his real name, causing Fonzi to give up the search, despite the evidence of a real person by that name.]

[ Part 1 – More to come. BK Comments apprecaited.]

Edited March 16, 2007 by William Kelly

[William Kelly]

I originally misread this as "THE Army Ranger Training Camp at Eglin Air Force Base," as if Eglin Air Force Base was THE location for the training of Army Rangers, which would be odd. Still, why would an Army Ranger Training Camp be located at an Air Force base? A detached unit that couldn't find a favorable swampy Regular Army environment? Or one in closer proximity to Cuba? (Also, wouldn't "the techniques of clandestine jungle and swamp operations for small units" be more likely the specialty of the Special Forces/Green Berets --- or were they all too busy in Vietnam?)

Shackley's secretary Maggy told me to go to the second floor of the old barracks, a floor above my own office in the training branch. I'd never been in that area of the building."

DWD,

BEA was Captain in the US Army Rangers, which are an airborne division, jump out of planes, and such, so why is BEA's station at an AFB unusual? What's your point?

I don't think Vietnam was in full swing yet, we're talking about summer, '63.

If you just focus on what happened that summer you can figure out the assassination.

BK

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas,

[...] "Karl" is described as being Eastern European, as a lot of those JMWAVE guys seem to have worked together earlier in Berlin - Harvey, Parrott, Barnes, Bender,.....

BK

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There was Karl Novak, the mysterious Czech lad of Interpen fame. Hmm.....

--Thomas

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Edited March 18, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[John Dolva]

BK "I don't think Vietnam was in full swing yet, we're talking about summer, '63."

"Vietnam" had been in "full swing," with intensity and lull for decades.(one could argue centuries.)

1941 - Communist activist Ho Chi Minh secretly returns to Vietnam after 30 years in exile and organizes a nationalist organization known as the Viet Minh (Vietnam Independence League).

After Japanese troops occupy Vietnam during World War II, the U.S. military intelligence agency Office of Strategic Services (OSS) allies with Ho Chi Minh and his Viet Minh guerrillas to harass Japanese troops in the jungles and to help rescue downed American pilots.

Sep 1945 - Ho Chi Minh proclaims the independence of Vietnam by quoting from the text of the American Declaration of Independence which had been supplied to him by the OSS --

"We hold the truth that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among them life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This immortal statement is extracted from the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. These are undeniable truths."

Ho declares himself president of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and pursues American recognition but is repeatedly ignored by President Harry Truman.

December 1946 - In Hanoi, 30,000 Viet Minh launch their first large-scale attack against the French. Thus begins an eight year struggle known as the First Indochina War.

"The resistance will be long and arduous, but our cause is just and we will surely triumph," declares Viet Minh military commander Vo Nguyen Giap. "If these [people] want a fight, they'll get it," French military commander Gen. Etrienne Valluy states.

July 1950 - United States military involvement in Vietnam begins as President Harry Truman authorizes $15 million in military aid to the French. American military advisors will accompany the flow of U.S. tanks, planes, artillery and other supplies to Vietnam. Over the next four years, the U.S. will spend $3 Billion on the French war and by 1954 will provide 80 percent of all war supplies used by the French. General Giap begins his main attack against French outposts near the Chinese border. As the outposts fall, the French lose 6000 men and large stores of military equipment to the Viet Minh. The U.S. establishes a Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) in Saigon to aid the French Army.

( http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ic=9360&hl= )

Edited March 18, 2007 by John Dolva

[William Kelly]

DWD,

BEA was Captain in the US Army Rangers, which are an airborne division, jump out of planes, and such, so why is BEA's station at an AFB unusual? What's your point?

I don't think Vietnam was in full swing yet, we're talking about summer, '63.

If you just focus on what happened that summer you can figure out the assassination.

BK

BK,

I gotta admit that your last sentence threw me, since at this point I'm more than just a little skeptical that I (or the larger "we in general") "can figure out the (JFK) assassination" by "just focusing," much less by just focusing on the Summer of '63. (The Spring of that year also seems to contain some pertinent background issues, like the accused's abrupt departure to make a public spectacle of himself in New Orleans; the possibly staged attempt on the life of General Walker; and the mail order purchase of the same high quality weapon the Italian armies used when they nearly conquered the world.) But oh well, guess that's what I get for stupidly venturing into the JFK labyrinth again.

I do recall the mission of the US Army Rangers from my stay at "The Home of the Infantry" some 20 years ago. The building I stayed in the first few days (a lot of paperwork) before reporting to my permanent party was right next to an Airborne Rangers' "jump school," where unusually gung ho guys who apparently hadn't had enough boot camp were there for the specific purpose of training to jump out of planes. (Hence the name "jump school." I particularly recall that these guys liked, for no apparent reason, to drop and knock out pushups and shout "Airborne!" as they jumped back up.) So I guess my specific point here would be that jump-training (as of circa 1987) didn't initially require access to airplanes. Maybe it was different back in '63, but I find it unlikely that paratroopers would be expected to learn to jump the short distances expected of them by starting off jumping out of actual airplanes. That would tend to injure and/or kill much of the potential graduating class.

That's a little beside the point, of course, since apparently the training being conducted at Elgin was not directly related to jumping out of planes and was geared to "small units" learning commando-type ops in "jungle" and "swamp" environments. My apologies for the parenthetical speculation: Rangers would of course also be specialists in commando ops, but when I read "small units" and "jungle" I automatically thought of Special Forces as opposed to the typical mission of Rangers (dropping behind enemy lines in large-scale invasions). On the other hand, the Special Forces would have been involved quite a bit in Southeast Asia in the Summer of 1963, part of the 16,000 or so US advisors there, as their mission was specifically created for counterinsurgency warfare. (And for such warfare IN Southeast Asia, as I recall.)

My general point is that training conducted by elements of the US Army would ordinarily be expected to take place at US Army facilities -- unless there was some logistical and/or mission-specific need to conduct training at an Air Force base. For instance, that there were no US Army facilities with a sufficiently swampy environment and/or a close enough proximity to Cuba, so instead the training was conducted at an Air Force base. There could be other reasons as well. Since I couldn't fathom what the reason might be, I openly wondered about it by way of making a comment, as you suggested that comments would be appreciated. Maybe they're not, or maybe it depends on who makes the comments, but surely it's not impermissible to openly wonder about such things?

No need to worry, though. Starting tomorrow I have a brand-new entry-level factory job to go to. So this particular potential bad person/disinformationist/CIA apologist/Mockingbird asset/pro-Zionist/Friend-to-Negroes-and-Jews and whatever else I'm supposed to be or suspected of being in these parts will be even less trouble to you all than I've been lately. Good luck all.

DWD

DWD,

Thanks for the response. I will ask BEA about Elgin AFB assignment when I get the opportunit, among other questions of my own. He does mention the commanding officer there - Lt. Colonel Hakala, whose name doesn't appear in the index, and says this: "Vietnam was just beginning to receive serious attention fro mthe military extablishment and the demand for highly-skilled Ranger-trained officers to serve as advisors in Southeast Asia was increasing day by day. This fact eventually had an unfortuante impact on my status at the camp. As the executive officer I was responsible for the overall administration of the installation. soon found myself spending more time tha I liked supervising mess halls and barracks, making routine inspections, completing reports, directing building programs, and managing paperswork. I found less time to participate in the tactical traingin and, more often than not, was tied to my office and desk back at camp. I would have much rather been in the field. To complicate matters, Lieutenant Colonel Hakala, who commanded the camp, insisted the executive officer keep his nose out of training and stick almost entirely to managing administration of the installation....I failed to understand the reasons for the camp commander's attitude, and it continued to be a sore point between us.....On a sunny April day I made my move and requested a transfer....."

As a veteran with military experience, your review and comments are welcome, it's just the real action and evidence in the assassination comes after BEA left Elgin, in April, 1963. Indeed, that is when a potshot is taken at Walker, LHO leaves for NO, and Col./Dr. Jose Rivera (USA Reserves) in DC expresses foreknowledge of LHO activities. And are you accusing yourself of being a "disinformation/CIA/Mockingbird asset"? No one else has.

And John D., while BEA does mention the move of Ranger trainers to SEA, I think, in the overall scheme of things, 1963 is pretty early in the Vietnam debacle.

Thomas, thanks for your mention of Interpen "Karl," as more on "Karl' coming.

BK

Edited March 18, 2007 by William Kelly

[John Dolva]

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, William. I guess I have a different perspective on the Vietnam issue.

I see a debacle that stretched over centuries.

Mostly the topic 'Ho Chi Minh'* covers the period from early 1940's to middle 1960's. In it I see a deep US involvement, particularly the 'eight year war' when the US almost totally financed (in the order of billions of dollars) and armed the French's fight with the Viet Minh.

Trumans rejection of Ho's approaches is perhaps a moment one can say is the beginning of the Vietnam Debacle I think you refer to.

The total victory of the Viet Minh at Dien Bien Phu and the French withdrawal, put an end to a phase in an almost total US financed war against the Viets'.

During this period various structures had been set up by the US that then formed a basis for the US troops taking over where the French troops had left off.

It wasn't until 1965 that a massive increase in US troop deployment started.

Much happened before and after.

Eventually the Vietcong were victorious, and after further wars with China and the Khmer Rouge, and the US reneging on its billion dollar reparation parts of the Paris peace accord, Vietnam seems to have finally consolidated as a strong independent nation.

As I said my perspective is a series of huge debacles over a very long period, what exactly is the 'debacle' that you speak of?

I'm just curious so I can fully understand the overall meaning of your posts on this matter.

*( http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ic=9360&hl= )

Edited March 18, 2007 by John Dolva

[William Kelly]

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, William. I guess I have a different perspective on the Vietnam issue.

I see a debacle that stretched over centuries.

Mostly the topic 'Ho Chi Minh'* covers the period from early 1940's to middle 1960's. In it I see a deep US involvement, particularly the 'eight year war' when the US almost totally financed (in the order of billions of dollars) and armed the French's fight with the Viet Minh.

Trumans rejection of Ho's approaches is perhaps a moment one can say is the beginning of the Vietnam Debacle I think you refer to.

The total victory of the Viet Minh at Dien Bien Phu and the French withdrawal, put an end to a phase in an almost total US financed war against the Viets'.

During this period various structures had been set up by the US that then formed a basis for the US troops taking over where the French troops had left off.

It wasn't until 1965 that a massive increase in US troop deployment started.

Much happened before and after.

Eventually the Vietcong were victorious, and after further wars with China and the Khmer Rouge, and the US reneging on its billion dollar reparation parts of the Paris peace accord, Vietnam seems to have finally consolidated as a strong independent nation.

As I said my perspective is a series of huge debacles over a very long period, what exactly is the 'debacle' that you speak of?

I'm just curious so I can fully understand the overall meaning of your posts on this matter.

*( http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ic=9360&hl= )

John,

In 1969, while still a teenager, I took a class at Antioch College in Yellow Springs, Ohio on the History of Vietnam taught by a former CIA officer stationed in Siagon, who acknowledged then that Vietnam was experiencing a civil war and that we were fighting on the wrong side.

Ayers says: "As 1964 drew on, the focus of attention was shifting even more to Vietnam. The miliary, virtually ignored at the Bay of Pigs, and given false starts at the 1962 missile crisis and the French colonial adventre in Algeria, ambitiously sought an outlet for its pent-up frustraiton. In the evolving age of "limited, non-nuclear war," it sought desperately for a 'brush fire' to extinguish. The proponents of a paramilitery and counter-guerilla warfare, represented by the Green Berets who had contrived to impress President Kennedy, carried on a sales campaign for the United States involvement in Vitnam that would have put any public relations firm to shame....There was unlimited opportunity for promotion and comand empire-building. There was something for everyone in Vietnam, and it was far enough away to virtually eleminate the possiblitly of war reaching U.S. soil. more important, Vietnam was remote enough, culturally and racially, so that war there could be staged and looked upon in a detached fashion by the American public..."

Now Vietnam is another subject. Start a thread on that if you want.

I am trying to focus on the period of April - November 1963, and show how Bradley E. Ayers' personal experiences in Florida in that time period - unvetted by the CIA censors, were as he believes, directly connected to what happened at Dealey Plaza and Oak Cliff, Dallas, Texas on Novemmber 22, 1963. But apparently nobody's interested in that.

BK