Allen W. Dulles

[Guest Robert Morrow]

It makes little difference whether the Dulles/LBJ photo was late July or early November...THE PLOT WAS ALREADY

WELL UNDERWAY. The patsy was already being set up. The major players were playing their roles. The chief

plotters met for a briefing. THE ASSASSINATION WAS NOT A PLAN HATCHED ON THE SPUR OF THE MOMENT.

Jack

I totally agree. JFK's assassination had been in the works for months and possibly by some for years. My personal belief is that BOTH Lyndon Johnson and Allen Dulles were coordinating on the details and particulars of the JFK murder. And I do believe as Lyndon Johnson headed down Main street in his Lincoln he knew death waited for JFK on Elm Street and Dealey Plaza.

[Guest Tom Scully]

In June of 1963, meeting in El Paso, Texas, Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson

tried to pin Connally down to a date; Connally, as Governor of the state, was

expected to host the visit. Kennedy suggested four fund-raising affairs .

The Texas trip was being planned in June of 1963. Once it was certain that there would

be A TEXAS TRIP (where things could be CONTROLLED), a July meeting between the

cabal principals at the LBJ ranch fits right in. If the El Paso meeting was in June, it is

certain that planning for it was much earlier. Getting JFK to Texas was essential to

the plot. Getting him to Dallas was necessary, because the scenario was already

being written and the patsy was being set up with faked photos, etc.

Jack

Jack, JFK went nowhere near El Paso, or anywhere else in Texas in June, 1963. Connally approved

the November trip in a discussion with JFK "late in the summer" in Washington. Drew Pearson reported that LBJ was not in the loop. Can you post a main stream press account, dated in the 1960's that describes another scenario?

Compared to you, I am a novice in this study and discussion.

I try to go in the same direction the information I can dig up or receive from others and verify, takes me towards Jack. In case you haven't read my posts on how I got interested in these crimes, after believing since grade school that there were more talented people than I, questioning and challenging the official line, I dived in only after reading that one of Obama's oldest and wealthiest backers was Lester Crown. I was surprised I had never heard of this man with more than $5 billion in assets, and a former chairman of General Dynamics, to boot. Inquiring about Lester led me to Henry, and

Henry's background led me to Albert Jenner, Patrick Hoy, Hoy's boss, Ernest Byfield, Jr., Byfield's mother, Gladys Tartiere, owner of Glen Ora, leased to JFK, and 88 year old McNamara marrying Byfield's widow.

My hunch is that this photo of Dulles watching LBJ on his horse was taken by a Johnson friend, family member or an employee, on 28 July, 1960, and offered to the press for the 1963 article on Lady Bird Johnson. This copy appears in an August 15, 1963 article, I posted a version of it from a page of a 22 November, 1963, Michigan newspaper, and there is the better known mid November, 1963 publication of it in the Fort Worth newspaper. The photo is not attributed to AP, UPI, or any other news service. The random dates of its publication clearly indicate it was not associated with a current or a timely news report.:

Edited August 24, 2010 by Tom Scully

[Jack White]

5 June 1963

Decision for Texas trip made at meeting with Kennedy, Johnson, and Connally at the Cortez hotel in El Paso Texas.

From a JFK timeline. I do not understand anyone refuting this established fact.

Jack

[Guest Tom Scully]

5 June 1963

Decision for Texas trip made at meeting with Kennedy, Johnson, and Connally at the Cortez hotel in El Paso Texas.

From a JFK timeline. I do not understand anyone refuting this established fact.

Jack

I am wrong, Jack. Please accept my apology. I recall now that I have posted about Sorrel's role

in the El Paso trip. I read Pearson's account yesterday and I guess reading his version of events clouded my recall. JFK, LBJ, and Connally were indeed at the Hotel Cortez on El Paso on June 5/ Pearson, in his 1967 piece, does not even mention it....hmmmmm!

[Guest Tom Scully]

There is more than one source for Dulles being in Dallas in November.

One is himself: "Dulles joked in private that the JFK conspiracy buffs would have had a field day if they had known....he had actually been in Dallas three weeks before the murder...."

A Certain Arrogance, p. 230

Jim, I wonder what Dulles meant to infer in his private joke, considering his presence in Dallas was public knowledge in Texas at the time he was there?

[Guest Tom Scully]

You expect me to understand a guy as twisted as Dulles?

No, I don't. He probably said publicly, the opposite of what he believed, but when he wasn't speaking propaganda he was speaking in riddles. We know he was a thoughtful man; he came to the first executive session of the WC with a book for each of his fellow commissioners extolling

the history of LN assassins.

This doesn't prove or disprove that LBJ was in Texas on October 29 when Allen Dulles was. The article gives the impression LBJ arrived from and was returning to Washington, just a day later, on Wednesday the 30th. It looks like Dulles did not stick around for Sen. Tom Connally's funeral service.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Tom Scully

[Bernice Moore]

lbj's announcing the texas trip 43 days it says before kennedy agreed to the trip... :blink:from Newcomb info..

Edited August 25, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[B. A. Copeland]

There is more than one source for Dulles being in Dallas in November.

One is himself: "Dulles joked in private that the JFK conspiracy buffs would have had a field day if they had known....he had actually been in Dallas three weeks before the murder...."

A Certain Arrogance, p. 230

Jim, I wonder what Dulles meant to infer in his private joke, considering his presence in Dallas was public knowledge in Texas at the time he was there?

I means that those "conspiracy theorists" would have rightly connected some dots lol....

[Karl Kinaski]

You expect me to understand a guy as twisted as Dulles?

I fear we have to:

quote Prouty "The secret team":

Typical of his (Dulles) method is the way in which he organized his book in 1962. The only intelligence function of general significance not covered in the language of the National Security Act of 1947 was that of collection. Characteristically, the only intelligence function given any chapter heading emphasis -- and it is given two chapters -- in his book, The Craft of Intelligence, is collection. This was so typical of the man. He would have everyone believe that if he repeated something often enough and if he pounded something out often enough, sooner or later everyone else would give up, and he would have what he wanted. His book would convince anyone that the most important Congressional mandate to the CIA was that of collection; yet that function was not named and was specifically omitted in the law. The CIA most certainly did get into the collection business and has augmented the collection capability of the military and of the State Department.

It was this same bulldog ability of Allen Dulles that brought the CIA into the clandestine operations business, and once in, that made it the primary business of the Agency. Here he was, working against all of the constraints that had been set up against him. He simply worked like the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon; he eroded all opposition.

close quote

One of the reasons Dulles was in Texas was to promote "The Craft of Intelligence"...a book of zero value...

KK

Edited August 26, 2010 by Karl Kinaski

[Jack White]

THE SECRET TEAM is one of THE most valuable books to aid understanding events of the 1960s as well as today.

It was written by an INSIDER with no ax to grind. Fletch was a true patriot.

Karl just does not "get it".

Jack

[Karl Kinaski]

THE SECRET TEAM is one of THE most valuable books to aid understanding events of the 1960s as well as today.

It was written by an INSIDER with no ax to grind. Fletch was a true patriot.

Karl just does not "get it".

Jack

SRY, a lapse in my last sentence: I meant "Craft of Intelligence" is of zero value...( I corrected it...)

To me too "The Secret Team" is the most valuable book, not only to understand the events of the 60, but to understand how the United States Government works down to the present day!

I posted the passage(of The Secret Team), because the book contains, IMO, the best description of the Chameleon Allan Dulles ever...but the pieces of the characterization of that man are spread out all over it´s several hundred pages, and it is not easy to find em and put em together...if anybody wants to know who Allan Dulles really was, I recommend to read the text online...

KK

Edited August 26, 2010 by Karl Kinaski

[William Kelly]

SUN TZU THE ART OF WAR THE DIVINE SKEIN

Allen Dulles took a book with him to the first meeting of the Warren Commission, a book about American assassins and how they, historically, all appear to be psychologically deranged lone-nuts, which he recommended the other commissioners read. If he was more interested in determining the truth about the assassination he would have them read his own book, "The Craft of Intelligence," in which he promotes Sun Tzu's ancient manual "The Art of War."

In the chapter "The Employment of Secret Agents," Sun Tzu says, "Now the reason the enlightened prince and the wise general conquer the enemy wherever they move, and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men, is foreknowledge."

"What is called foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits, nor from the gods, nor by analogy with past events, nor from calculations. It must be obtained from men who know the situation."

"Now there are five sorts of agents to be employed. These are: native, inside, double, expendable and living." A native agent is one of the nationality of the enemy. An inside agent is one who lives and works in the enemy's camp. A double agent is an enemy agent who works for both sides. An expendable agent is one that can be cut loose after achieving his goal, while a living agent is one that can get into the enemy camp and return with information."

Sun Tzu writes: "When these five types of agents are all working simultaneously and none knows their message of operation, they are called 'The Divine Skeim," and are the treasure of the sovereign."

And even today in the world of satellite and communication intelligence, human intelligence is still an indispensable method of determining motives and anticipated action, and the nature of the clandestine network in action is still the most reliable means of learning the intentions of other people and governments.

In the case of the assassination of President Kennedy, individuals had foreknowledge of the event because of their affiliation with such a network, and such foreknowledge itself is evidence that there was a conspiracy behind the assassination.

In this regard, little has changed. The same type of agents are classified and utilized today as they were in Sun Tsu's day, as well as at Dealey Plaza. Their method of operation is known as compartmentalization, where each man knows only his job, and may not even know who is paying him to do it.

Thus, if the assassination of JFK was the work of a covert action team, the men who pulled the triggers probably didn't know who they were working for, and did it because they were well trained, paid professional marksmen and killers.

Those who maintain Oswald was the lone-assassin also portray him as a low life loser, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and hated authority and society, while actually, if he was the lone-gunman, was, if nothing else, and as Sam Giancana more correctly described him, a great marksman and assassin.......

Edited August 26, 2010 by William Kelly

[Karl Kinaski]

SUN TZU – THE ART OF WAR – THE DIVINE SKEIN

Allen Dulles took a book with him to the first meeting of the Warren Commission, a book about American assassins and how they, historically, all appear to be psychologically deranged lone-nuts, which he recommended the other commissioners read. If he was more interested in determining the truth about the assassination he would have them read his own book, "The Craft of Intelligence," in which he promotes Sun Tzu's ancient manual "The Art of War."

In the chapter "The Employment of Secret Agents," Sun Tzu says, "Now the reason the enlightened prince and the wise general conquer the enemy wherever they move, and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men, is foreknowledge."

"What is called foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits, nor from the gods, nor by analogy with past events, nor from calculations. It must be obtained from men who know the situation."

"Now there are five sorts of agents to be employed. These are: native, inside, double, expendable and living." A native agent is one of the nationality of the enemy. An inside agent is one who lives and works in the enemy's camp. A double agent is an enemy agent who works for both sides. An expendable agent is one that can be cut loose after achieving his goal, while a living agent is one that can get into the enemy camp and return with information."

Sun Tzu writes: "When these five types of agents are all working simultaneously and none knows their message of operation, they are called 'The Divine Skeim," and are the treasure of the sovereign."

And even today in the world of satellite and communication intelligence, human intelligence is still an indispensable method of determining motives and anticipated action, and the nature of the clandestine network in action is still the most reliable means of learning the intentions of other people and governments.

In the case of the assassination of President Kennedy, individuals had foreknowledge of the event because of their affiliation with such a network, and such foreknowledge itself is evidence that there was a conspiracy behind the assassination.

In this regard, little has changed. The same type of agents are classified and utilized today as they were in Sun Tsu's day, as well as at Dealey Plaza. Their method of operation is known as compartmentalization, where each man knows only his job, and may not even know who is paying him to do it.

Thus, if the assassination of JFK was the work of a covert action team, the men who pulled the triggers probably didn't know who they were working for, and did it because they were well trained, paid professional marksmen and killers.

Those who maintain Oswald was the lone-assassin also portray him as a low life loser, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and hated authority and society, while actually, if he was the lone-gunman, was, if nothing else, and as Sam Giancana more correctly described him, a great marksman and assassin.......

I stumbled over these passage in CIA (Wikipedia)

Quote

The Office of Training begins with the Junior Officer Training program for new employees, but it also conducts courses in a wide range of specialized professional disciplines. So that the initial course might be taken by employees who had not received final security clearance and thus were not permitted unescorted access to the Headquarters building, a good deal of basic training has been given at office buildings in the urban areas of Arlington, Virginia...

For a later stage of training of student operations officers, there is at least one classified training area at Camp Peary, near Williamsburg, Virginia. Students are selected, and their progress evaluated, in ways derived from the OSS, published as the book The assement of men...Assessment of Men, Selection of Personnel for the Office of Strategic Services.

Close quote

This book was written 65 years ago, and is still in use in the CIA Training! Has anybody read it? Is there a reference in that book to Sun Tzus ART OF WAR?

KK

[William Kelly]

SUN TZU – THE ART OF WAR – THE DIVINE SKEIN

Allen Dulles took a book with him to the first meeting of the Warren Commission, a book about American assassins and how they, historically, all appear to be psychologically deranged lone-nuts, which he recommended the other commissioners read. If he was more interested in determining the truth about the assassination he would have them read his own book, "The Craft of Intelligence," in which he promotes Sun Tzu's ancient manual "The Art of War."

In the chapter "The Employment of Secret Agents," Sun Tzu says, "Now the reason the enlightened prince and the wise general conquer the enemy wherever they move, and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men, is foreknowledge."

"What is called foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits, nor from the gods, nor by analogy with past events, nor from calculations. It must be obtained from men who know the situation."

"Now there are five sorts of agents to be employed. These are: native, inside, double, expendable and living." A native agent is one of the nationality of the enemy. An inside agent is one who lives and works in the enemy's camp. A double agent is an enemy agent who works for both sides. An expendable agent is one that can be cut loose after achieving his goal, while a living agent is one that can get into the enemy camp and return with information."

Sun Tzu writes: "When these five types of agents are all working simultaneously and none knows their message of operation, they are called 'The Divine Skeim," and are the treasure of the sovereign."

And even today in the world of satellite and communication intelligence, human intelligence is still an indispensable method of determining motives and anticipated action, and the nature of the clandestine network in action is still the most reliable means of learning the intentions of other people and governments.

In the case of the assassination of President Kennedy, individuals had foreknowledge of the event because of their affiliation with such a network, and such foreknowledge itself is evidence that there was a conspiracy behind the assassination.

In this regard, little has changed. The same type of agents are classified and utilized today as they were in Sun Tsu's day, as well as at Dealey Plaza. Their method of operation is known as compartmentalization, where each man knows only his job, and may not even know who is paying him to do it.

Thus, if the assassination of JFK was the work of a covert action team, the men who pulled the triggers probably didn't know who they were working for, and did it because they were well trained, paid professional marksmen and killers.

Those who maintain Oswald was the lone-assassin also portray him as a low life loser, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and hated authority and society, while actually, if he was the lone-gunman, was, if nothing else, and as Sam Giancana more correctly described him, a great marksman and assassin.......

I stumbled over these passage in CIA (Wikipedia)

Quote

The Office of Training begins with the Junior Officer Training program for new employees, but it also conducts courses in a wide range of specialized professional disciplines. So that the initial course might be taken by employees who had not received final security clearance and thus were not permitted unescorted access to the Headquarters building, a good deal of basic training has been given at office buildings in the urban areas of Arlington, Virginia...

For a later stage of training of student operations officers, there is at least one classified training area at Camp Peary, near Williamsburg, Virginia. Students are selected, and their progress evaluated, in ways derived from the OSS, published as the book The assement of men...Assessment of Men, Selection of Personnel for the Office of Strategic Services.

Close quote

This book was written 65 years ago, and is still in use in the CIA Training! Has anybody read it? Is there a reference in that book to Sun Tzus ART OF WAR?

KK

I haven't read that one, but I do know, from having read the autobios of many of the men who were in OSS, that you couldn't just join, you had to be recommended, and you had to pass a series of tests, not just intelligence tests, but tests to see how you would react in certain situations. They say it was very rigiorous but it stretched the limits, physically and mentally.

David Atlee Phillips, who wasn't in OSS, but Army Air Corps, also wrote a recruitment book about the type of men needed for intelligence work, and Ian Fleming once gave a speech on the attributes needed by secret agents in the field.

BK

[Karl Kinaski]

SUN TZU – THE ART OF WAR – THE DIVINE SKEIN

Allen Dulles took a book with him to the first meeting of the Warren Commission, a book about American assassins and how they, historically, all appear to be psychologically deranged lone-nuts, which he recommended the other commissioners read. If he was more interested in determining the truth about the assassination he would have them read his own book, "The Craft of Intelligence," in which he promotes Sun Tzu's ancient manual "The Art of War."

In the chapter "The Employment of Secret Agents," Sun Tzu says, "Now the reason the enlightened prince and the wise general conquer the enemy wherever they move, and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men, is foreknowledge."

"What is called foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits, nor from the gods, nor by analogy with past events, nor from calculations. It must be obtained from men who know the situation."

"Now there are five sorts of agents to be employed. These are: native, inside, double, expendable and living." A native agent is one of the nationality of the enemy. An inside agent is one who lives and works in the enemy's camp. A double agent is an enemy agent who works for both sides. An expendable agent is one that can be cut loose after achieving his goal, while a living agent is one that can get into the enemy camp and return with information."

Sun Tzu writes: "When these five types of agents are all working simultaneously and none knows their message of operation, they are called 'The Divine Skeim," and are the treasure of the sovereign."

And even today in the world of satellite and communication intelligence, human intelligence is still an indispensable method of determining motives and anticipated action, and the nature of the clandestine network in action is still the most reliable means of learning the intentions of other people and governments.

In the case of the assassination of President Kennedy, individuals had foreknowledge of the event because of their affiliation with such a network, and such foreknowledge itself is evidence that there was a conspiracy behind the assassination.

In this regard, little has changed. The same type of agents are classified and utilized today as they were in Sun Tsu's day, as well as at Dealey Plaza. Their method of operation is known as compartmentalization, where each man knows only his job, and may not even know who is paying him to do it.

Thus, if the assassination of JFK was the work of a covert action team, the men who pulled the triggers probably didn't know who they were working for, and did it because they were well trained, paid professional marksmen and killers.

Those who maintain Oswald was the lone-assassin also portray him as a low life loser, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and hated authority and society, while actually, if he was the lone-gunman, was, if nothing else, and as Sam Giancana more correctly described him, a great marksman and assassin.......

I stumbled over these passage in CIA (Wikipedia)

Quote

The Office of Training begins with the Junior Officer Training program for new employees, but it also conducts courses in a wide range of specialized professional disciplines. So that the initial course might be taken by employees who had not received final security clearance and thus were not permitted unescorted access to the Headquarters building, a good deal of basic training has been given at office buildings in the urban areas of Arlington, Virginia...

For a later stage of training of student operations officers, there is at least one classified training area at Camp Peary, near Williamsburg, Virginia. Students are selected, and their progress evaluated, in ways derived from the OSS, published as the book The assement of men...Assessment of Men, Selection of Personnel for the Office of Strategic Services.

Close quote

This book was written 65 years ago, and is still in use in the CIA Training! Has anybody read it? Is there a reference in that book to Sun Tzus ART OF WAR?

KK

I haven't read that one, but I do know, from having read the autobios of many of the men who were in OSS, that you couldn't just join, you had to be recommended, and you had to pass a series of tests, not just intelligence tests, but tests to see how you would react in certain situations. They say it was very rigiorous but it stretched the limits, physically and mentally.

David Atlee Phillips, who wasn't in OSS, but Army Air Corps, also wrote a recruitment book about the type of men needed for intelligence work, and Ian Fleming once gave a speech on the attributes needed by secret agents in the field.

BK

Four OSS tests are explained here:

# The Brook Situation

# The Wall Situation

# The Construction Situation

# Stress Interview

Maybe Oswald did "The stress interview" during his "training"...there was at last one guy who said Oswald acted like a professional during his Dallas-Interrogations...(Oswald was only furious about the unfair line-ups, and the false evidence, they confronted him with. Said Oswald to his brother: Don´t believe in the so called evidence...)

KK

Edited August 27, 2010 by Karl Kinaski