Jump to content
The Education Forum
Evan Marshall

Blood in Dealey Plaza

Recommended Posts

I think Len only keeps the current year show links up, so I believe that link (to a 2015 show) is now out of date. I will check out the YouTube... thanks!

Edited by Greg Wagner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This transcript from the posted video should appear in this thread as well.

Thanks to @Denny Zartman

 

 

Len Osanic – Mr. Coley has indicated that he has some first-hand knowledge, and you were interviewed before and somehow they got to tell only half the story.

Jerry Coley - Yes, sir.

Osanic – So I’d love to hear the whole thing.

 Coley – Okay. I’ll recount it as best I can, that was what, like… I was in the advertising department. I usually got there about 8 o’clock. We had a little cafeteria, and on Friday I would go down and my cohort that handles food and drug advertising with me, Don Campbell, he and I usually would meet for coffee. And on Fridays, usually Jack Ruby would come in to place his weekend advertising, and he would join us for coffee, and that Friday morning he did, on November the 22, about 8 o clock or so. 

When I got there, he was in the cafeteria with Don Campbell, they were having coffee. I sat down with them, and Jack was his usual self. He liked to talk about his strippers and how tough he was, and he flashed his brass knuckles that he had in his suit coat and bragged about toughness. But he usually came in and he placed his weekend advertising on Friday with our department for his strip joint there, along with another nightclub he owned, and he always paid in cash, and he kept the money rolled up in his pocket, and, uh, he always bragged about the money he had and about the gun he carried under the front seat of his car, but, it was a normal morning. And then I left the coffee shop I guess and came on in to my office and left my office about 9 o’clock to go out and make my advertising calls.

I came back into the office probably sometime after 11 o’clock, and Jack Ruby was still sitting at John Noonan’s desk, who sat directly behind me, John handled the downtown advertising where his club was.

About 11:30 or so I got Charlie Mulkey, one of my advertising friends, and we went down to our personnel office to redraw some parking spaces they were doing that day, and then walked three and a half blocks over to try to get a good spot on the corner of Main and Houston to watch the parade as it come by and turn there.

We couldn’t get that spot on the corner of Main and Elm, it was already too crowded, so we moved down about half way down Houston street, from the corner of Main, between Main and Elm. Front of the county jail there, and they were just unloading a No Parking sign set in a big concrete bowl there, so I got up on that concrete so I could see over the crowd, and had a good view.

And just about a few minutes, about 12:15, 12:20 by then, across the street on Houston, on the sidewalk, in front of this reflecting pool that’s there, a man had an epileptic fit. And I remember him writhing around on the ground, and just almost out of nowhere, here come this ambulance, turn the corner off, loaded the man in there, and then took off down Houston street, over the Houston street viaduct toward Methodist hospital, we supposed. And the thing I remember so much about it now, then was that of all the documentaries that we’ve seen on JFK that I have, and the shows, there’s only been one that depicted that thing that happened, and I was really impressed by that particular show.

But in any case, right after that happened, within seemed like two or three minutes, the parade came, and passed by in front, and I remember Jackie waving and seeing the president.

And as they turned the corner on Elm street, in front of us which was just a half a block down and started down that Elm street in front of the book depository, we heard all these noises, and I couldn’t tell you to this day, I couldn’t then were there was one shot, ten, or five or whatever. It was just an echoing noise. To me it was no definite gunshots and I did not recall any three shots, it was echoing so.
In any case, I crossed Houston street between some parade cars, over to that reflecting pool, and I could see people running down towards the grassy knoll and the railroad tracks, so I started down the esplanade which part of it runs parallel to the book depository down towards that fence. And down when I got nearly to the fence, a policeman in brown, we called them County Mounties in Dallas, at that time stopped me. And he had a shotgun. And Charlie was behind me, and he said, “Where do you guys think you’re going?” and we said, “We’re going back to where all these people are running,” which was back towards the fence and this parking lot, or that area on top of the grassy knoll. He told us to get the hell out of there, so Charlie I guess left me at that point. I don’t know where he went, but I went ahead and started down that esplanade, made a left, started down towards the side, the picket fence corner there, and at the top of those steps that go down the grassy knoll. And it was there that I saw people laying all over and the median grass between there, couple motorcycles up on the, laying on the side of the hill, people and police running up towards the picket fence, to the right of me. I looked down at the top of those steps before you take the top step, there was a huge puddle that I thought was blood.

So, I walked on down, around it, down the steps, and I saw people in the median between Main and Elm, laying on the grass, people crying, I looked back and I could still see people headed all around the grassy knoll, in that area. And no one was going towards that book depository, that, no one. There was no one headed in that direction. So, I rushed on back to the News to see if I could find out something.

And as I come in the door, by then it must have been quarter to one, maybe. Maybe a little bit later than that.

Jack Ruby was still at Noonan’s desk. And I said to someone that Connelly might have been shot, and maybe even the president. I remember Jack Ruby jumped up then and ran back to our corner office. Dick Jefferies at that time was our promotion director. He ran in to his secretary’s desk there. He could look out the window directly down at that assassination site. And I remember him on the phone crying and talking.

Well, about that time I saw Jim Hood, who was our ad department photographer, and I went up to him and I said “Jim, I think I’ve seen some blood or something down there where all this stuff took place.” And he said “Well, let me get my camera, we’ll go back down there.” So, he got his camera and we went, rushed back down there. It was probably 1 or a little after by then. And everyone was gathered up around the book depository then.

We came up to this blood area, which now was all crinkly, looked like it had coagulated a little. And he put his little pinky on his right hand into that, and he stuck his tongue to it, and he said, “Why, that’s blood.” And he made a photo with his reflex camera.
We came on back to the News. And of course, we heard then that the president had been shot. And all this, so.

It was Sunday, I guess, when I was home then watching television as they were getting ready to transfer Oswald from the city jail to the county jail. And when Jack Ruby stepped forward, with that hat on he had, and that dark suit, I recognized him instantly as he was shot him [sic].

Well, I come into the office Monday morning, and Hugh Aynesworth, who was a News reporter, was there talking to Don. And Don turned around and said, “Coley there was at breakfast with me, and me and Jack, and we all sat there and talked that morning.” And I said, “Let’s go back over Jim, this morning and look at that blood.” We went back over and then there was no stain to be found anywhere. And it was like someone had cleaned it off very thoroughly. And then I got busy on my daily work that I had, nothing else happened until Tuesday AM.

The next morning when I came in and someone told me that Hugh Aynesworth in our Bulldog edition, which is printed up back, oh back then about 9’o’clock. They were printed for newsstands sale and downtown honor box sales. There was a story written by Hugh that said, “Coley at the News had visited with Jack Ruby that morning.” Someone then showed me that edition. I looked at it, and I said “Wow.”
It wasn’t thirty minutes later while I was preparing to go out, my wife called. And she was hysterical on the phone. And she said “I just received two threatening phone calls. They both have said if you don’t shut your mouth, they’re gonna kill me and our two kids,” a boy and a girl I had at that time. And I said, “What are you talking about?” She said, “That’s what they said.” I said, “Ah, it’s some whack. I don’t know anything, I haven’t said anything.”

So, I made my morning run and I got back probably about 10:30 that morning. At that time as I sat down to begin working on my ads, two men came up in dark suits. They kind of flashed a green ID card and said “We’re the FBI. Are you ‘Coley at the News’ that was mentioned in a story this morning?” And I said, “Well, I’m Jerry Coley.” They said, “Did you have coffee with Jack Ruby Friday morning?” And I said, “Yes, sir.” And they said, “We want to talk in private.” So, I said “Wait just a minute.”

So, I went to the back of the room to our vice president’s office, and I said, “Sy, I’m scared. Would you verify who these people are?” So Sy Wagner came up, he said, “You sit down in my office, and I’ll go up talk to them.” He went up and talked with these two men, and he came back in, oh, a few minutes. And said “Jerry, they’re okay. Go ahead and talk to them.”

So, I, they said, “Where can we meet in private?” and I said “Oh, we got a conference room just up here in front of the room.” So, they said, “Let’s go in there and talk.” So, I went in and one of them, the taller guy, was doing all the questions. The other one was making, looked like shorthand notes, but I couldn’t tell what he was doing there for sure. And he asked me to talk about that morning with Jack Ruby. And I did, and about when I was down at the parade area, and then I said, “I want to ask you a question.” And the guy taking notes said, “Wait a minute, we’re not here to answer questions, we’re here to ask,” in a rough kind of way. And I said, “Well, it’s about some blood I saw there.” Right away the man interviewing said “Tell me about this blood.”

So, I told them what I’d seen and that one of my advertising photographers had made a picture of it. And he said, “Is he here now?” and I said “Yes, he’s he sits just outside the door here.” He said, “Go get him, get his camera, his negatives, and any positives that he’s got, and you come back in here.”

So, I went up to Jim’s desk, and I said “Jim, can you please come in here with me and bring your camera and your negative? Did you print that piece out?” And he said, “I just printed out that photo this morning.” He said “You know, I don’t have right way in that photographic lab. The newsroom has first priority. With all that’s been going on, I haven’t been able to print that picture,” he said, “but I just did this morning.”
And I said, “Well, get it and come in here.” So, he brought the camera, the negative, and the positive was in a brown envelope. The FBI man, we went in, and he introduced himself and they had us sit down. The FBI who was doing the question, man, took the negative and then he took the envelope and opened it up and looked at the print, and that was the first time I had seen the print, it was just a print of the blood stain there on the, or the blood there, on top of the steps. And he wanted to know if there were any more prints made. Jim said “No, I’ve just been able to make that one this morning.”

So, then they turned and had some sort of muffled conversation between themselves, and it seemed like after an eternity as they stood there, probably 2 or 3 minutes, but the big guy stood up and then the other one did too. And he put everything in the bag, put it under his arm, then said “Boys, this conversation never took place, if you know what we mean.” And they walked out the door and left.

Jim and I sat in that conference room, and he said “What the hell is going on here? What have you gotten me into? and I said “Jim, I don’t know what’s going on. I just know that my wife’s been threatened. He said “What?!” I said “Yeah.” He said “Well, what are you saying?” I said, “I’m not talking to anybody, Jim.”  He said “Then you should shut your mouth and I’m gonna shut mine. And let’s don’t talk about this blood mess anymore!” And I said, “I won’t.”

Well, we didn’t.

Wasn’t long after that, a few days after that, I received a subpoena to Jack Ruby’s trial. And on the subpoena, which I still have, it’s addressed to “Coley at the News,” which I guess was taken from that news story that ran on that two-star edition only.
Some, I don’t know when it was, in the 70s sometime after that, “Unsolved Mysteries”, an NBC production called and said, “We would like to meet with you after work and listen to your story about Jack Ruby that morning and your association with him.” And I said “Fine.”

And so, they came that afternoon about 6.

About 9 o’clock they took a short break and I called my wife to tell her we’re still going on, and I said “You know what? Everybody that could corroborate my story about the blood now is dead. Jim Hood, Sy Wagner, Don Campbell.” I said, “You know, we’ve never talked about it, and I just gotta tell somebody and to get it off, let it be open.” She panicked. She said, “Don’t do that.” And I said “Well, you know if I talk about this, they’ll think, well at the worst I’m some kind of nut. Nobody’s going to believe me, but at least I told it.”

Well I did, and they nearly flipped out.

They said, “We want to come back the next morning, we want to go over to where this happened, we want to.” And they did. I met them, and we went over there.

This thing went on all morning long.

And, finally, they said “Okay, it’s a wrap. We’ll call you when we get back to California and give you the run show date for when we’re going to run this.”

Well, they called, seemed like two or three days later, and says “We can’t use that blood story. We couldn’t substantiate it.” And I said “I told you that when I told you the story. That’s why I told it to you.” So, they said “Well we can only use the other part about Jack Ruby.”

Then after that I’ve been interviewed by the Japanese, out of Tokyo, Japan. They came over, talked. Of course, they had all kinds of wild theories.

I don’t advance a theory of what I’ve seen other than I know that what I saw, it scared me to death. I know my wife was threatened three times on the phone. For me to shut up, which I haven’t said anything other than that story that Hugh had written about me talking with Jack Ruby that morning.

And I know that when this happened, I was there, I saw the people run towards that picket fence. No one ran towards the book depository.

And that’s all I know first-hand, sir.

Len Osanic – Now, let me just go over, I just have a couple of questions then.

Jerry Coley – Okay.

Osanic - I’m not sure if I was not interpreting, so I just want to ask you, where exactly would you say the blood was? You said on steps, right?

Coley – On the steps, there is an esplanade-looking thing that comes down the hill.

Osanic – Right.

Coley – To Elm street, and there’s steps. It’s almost, it starts almost close to that corner of the picket fence there, just to the right of it. These steps come down to the sidewalk.

Osanic - Well let me ask you this. Did you have a feeling that had something to do with the assassination, that that might have been?

Coley – Well, you know, my personal theory is that it had to have something to do, someone was hit there.

Osanic - And if it was close enough to the street, that’s why you felt it was important, that, we better make a note of this, … the fence is kind of up the hill there, right?

Coley – Right. It’s up that grassy knoll that leads down to Elm street, Elm street kind of makes a semi “s” coming down around that curve, and it’s…

Osanic - It’s up there. Secondly, you’ve felt threatened by these FBI that when they said the interview never happened, they took the picture, they took everything, and that was the end of that?

Coley – Yes sir. It, you know, like Jim and I still remember Jim saying “My God, if we can’t, if we can’t be truthful to the FBI, what’s going on? Whoa. What, how big is this? What’s happening?” And he said, “I don’t know about you but I’m shutting my mouth and I think you better too, since you’re one getting all the threatening calls.” And we both said, “We’re not going to talk about it,” and we didn’t for about 13 years before I talked about it. It was after Don and, as I said, the three people involved that could corroborate my story that morning died, that I, I said I’m going to talk about it.

Osanic - Let me get the, if I have the people that you mentioned straight. Hugh Aynesworth.

Coley – Hugh Aynesworth. He’s one that I don’t quite understand either because he, I read, someone told me that he was speaking somewhere, or maybe he’s written it, I don’t know, said “Oh yeah, I saw that up there, it was a soda pop.” And I thought, “Wow. We… I had a man that I, a photographer who tasted it. It was blood.” But, anyway, so yeah, he can say what he wants, it doesn’t matter.

Osanic - Hugh was the one who wrote…

Coley – He wrote the story about me talking to Ruby, I guess, that got me in all this trouble.

Osanic - And then the name of the photographer that was with you?

Coley – The photographer was Jim Hood. H-o-o-d. And the man that worked with me in my Food and Drug was Don Campbell c-a-m-p-b-e-l-l.

Osanic - Right. The next question would be, that I think a lot of people have an interest about, Jack Ruby, where he was and what he was doing for thoughts that he had some foreknowledge or some planning. You know, going over this again, he was at the News in the morning?

Coley – You know, Jack Ruby and he, and all the stories I have read, and things that I heard even before he died was that he was such a patriot and how he loved the president. And I really found that hard to believe at that time that, if he really loved the president, why would he just be hanging around our office, when he could walk 3 and a half blocks down the street and see him in person, come by, he and his wife? That just never made sense to me.

Osanic – Now, is it your opinion that he was there the whole morning, then?

Coley – Yes, he was, as far as I know.

Osanic - That’s fine, because I think someone, if I’m correct, it would be a woman named Julia Ann Mercer, who thought she saw him in a pickup truck dropping off someone around that area. I don’t want to, I just want to hear your story and your side of it is that…

Coley – He was there from 8 till about I guess it was about 9 that morning. I left, I know he was there then. He was there at 9 while I left to go on my advertising calls. When I came back, around 11 o’clock or so, he was still there, sitting at John Noonan’s desk. He usually came in on Friday, but he normally was never there more than about an hour.

Osanic - You could speak as fact through your observations from 8 till 9, he was there, and then after 11 he was there.

Coley – Yes. He was there when I came back from the assassination site.

Osanic - Wasn’t it until the news was all flashing there that he got up?

Coley – Yes. There’s a tv over in that corner. And he was sitting at that desk, he calls someone, the news is coming out at that time that the president had been shot. And I remember him crying, on the phone. And Jim Hood and I then left the second-floor office to go back over there.

Osanic - The news was being flashed then that Kennedy had been shot, not only governor Connelly, for sure he would have heard that news, is that what you’re telling me then?

Coley – I really believe that. I believe by then he probably had heard the news that the president had been shot. I don’t know at that time they were saying he was dead, but I believe that...

Osanic - And from your opinion, he was in shock. You’re saying to the point of being upset?

Coley – He was upset. I don’t know if it was shock or not. 

Osanic - You’re saying that that was the last time you saw him?

Coley – There that day, yes. That day. I saw him then, next time I saw him was on television as he was shooting Oswald.

Osanic - When did the story come out? Was it Monday that you had…?

Coley – The story came out Tuesday morning, because Monday morning was when Hugh was talking to Don, and Don said “Well, hey, Jerry was there with me. Coley was there with me.” So, in the story, Hugh said “Coley at the News was having coffee with Ruby.”

Osanic - And this newspaper run though was a short one. You mentioned it was only 15 hundred copies, so it would be somewhat rare to find.

Coley – That’s… yes. They’re very hard, in fact, we have tried several times since then to find and could not. They only saved a certain amount of a few papers back then.

Osanic - Right, but someone may find it. Someone may have a copy.

Coley – That’s true.

Osanic - Right. Well, I guess to sum up then, you said this is just recollections and you don’t have, you can’t really draw any conclusions further to who did what, except for just this is what you know.

Coley – Yes, sir.

Osanic - Is there anything else then that, I didn’t want to bring up too much, just exactly wanted to hear what you had to say.

Coley – Okay, that’s all right. No sir, all I’m saying is this is what I know, and it’s not hearsay or hand me down or happenstance. This is what I know. And what happened to me and my family, and of course we’ve all got ideas about things, but this is what happened.

Osanic – Right. Now, your wife didn’t get any threats until after Tuesday?

Coley – That’s right.

Osanic - So it was after that, so it had to be some relation to that.

Coley – Well we really thought so because the first caller, the first one, that caller said, “Is your husband Coley at the News?” So there had to be some correlation to the story. And then again, my subpoena reads “Coley at the News.”

Osanic - Did you feel that any of these people who have subsequently passed away had had a mishap?

Coley – Jim Hood, who made my picture of the blood, left the news not too often long after that, went back to Oklahoma, and I usually saw him once a year, he would call me and say, he was a big Oklahoma fan, and said “I’d like tickets to get them for the Texas Oklahoma game”, and I said, “Sure” and I could get him two tickets every year. Well after a couple three years, he didn’t call. And we began to wonder about him, and so finally we tracked down his wife, and found that he had died strangely in a plane crash. He was a pilot. In a little small plane. It died strangely one day, the plane crash without any kind of provocation. No bad weather. They just didn’t understand, but it crashed.

Osanic - And I guess we’ve heard many people saying that anybody witnessing or having anything to do with it, there’s a lot of untimely deaths. You know, just more than anecdotal, more than you can say, “Well…” I think the British did an analyzation of it, and it was like, you know, astronomical the odds of so many people being involved in some event and all passing away within the 3, 4 year period. Almost as if some effort was done to really make sure that things stay buried.

Coley – Yes, sir. Hearing all those things made us live in fear for about ten years. We… that’s… we were really terrified, we were really scared, my wife and my 2 children. We just kind of shut up and didn’t talk, out of fear, to anybody. We didn’t know what was taking place.

Osanic - If you figured “This has nothing to do with me, there’s no sense stirring up any hornet’s nest.” But then on the other side of the coin, for the Warren Commission to be blaming Oswald, there must have been many people in the Dallas area that were sitting on information, saying “Well if wasn’t Lee Oswald,” I mean, “If it was Lee Oswald, why did, why the big cover up?”

Coley – You know, the Japanese when they came, they were really nice and they… goodness gracious, the pictures they made. Not with movies but still shots, and it was interesting to hear their view. They said that Jack Ruby, and they said, “Here is what we’re pursuing, Jack Ruby was a little two-bit hood who was used to shut Oswald up as Oswald was about to talk. They used Ruby to do that, and that this thing was so high in the government and so unbelievable that they said that we’ll never hear what really, who was behind all this.” And I said, “You mean like high authorities in our government?” “Oh, yes, yes.” And then they also pointed out to me, which at that time I hadn’t thought much about, that when Oswald left his apartment there on the corner it was Beckley, just off the corner there, and started up the street, why in the world, he turned down Patton street, and he was headed over toward Beckley and Ewing, I guess, going back east on Patton. If he would have gone to the end of Patton there, tuned right on Marsales and gone up a block and a half, he would have been at Ruby’s apartment. They said, “Doesn’t that seem strange to you?” and I said “Well, in a way, probably.” They said, “Had he continued on his way, how…” He went home and changed, jackets or shirts, I don’t remember now, but he changed some clothes, put on a jacket or took off a jacket. Said, “How would the police, police sitting there on a patrol, why would he stop him walking down the street 30 minutes after the, 45 minutes, I guess, after the assassination, on this little quiet street in Oak Cliff?” There’s so much.

Osanic - Yeah. And I guess the only complaint that people would have is that any arm of the government that was supposed to investigate this really failed, the FBI, even the Secret Service is held to blame for some areas, and justice department, and there should have been a trial. I think that it’s fundamentally illegal for the state of Texas not to have a trial, a murder trial, so, as a citizen you’re relying a bit on the government to look into matters and present them. And it’s like when the fox is investigating who raided the henhouse, and it kinda leads you to the conclusion that there is some organized effort here to remove a president, and it wasn’t a lone nut.

Coley – I agree. I think this thing is, in my lifetime I’ll never know. I was real hesitant for a long time to talk about this because I had so many people saying “Oh there’s one of those conspiracy talkers, and he’s always looking for some limelight.” I never wanted any kind… I’ve not written any books, I don’t want to write any books, I’ve never, even when I talk to these various churches and organizations here in east Texas now, I refuse any kind of compensation. I don’t want that. I said, my only interest was one day the truth will be known.

Osanic - Because every agency it seems, is fighting this, and every year some other big publishing firm is publishing another book, just how Lee Oswald did it after all, or they have new videos or, I think that when people are coming up with the conclusion that there was a big government orchestration in this and it doesn’t have to mean that it was sponsored by the government, J. Edgar Hoover or the CIA, but it has to be elements of all of them. At this point in time Kennedy had so many enemies, that when one group went to act out, everyone else in big power was only too happy to accommodate this. So, Lyndon Johnson has a lot of suspicion about him, but the first question when he phoned J. Edgar Hoover was “Were they shooting at me too?” He didn’t say “he,” he said “they.” He was a little worried, like, “Were they shooting at me too?” So it was more like, he heard the bullets going over the top of his head and he knew. And J. Edgar Hoover assured him “No, we have the gunman, we have three shots, we have the whole thing already wrapped up”, and this is like a day or two right after, so, someone had a story ready to go.

Coley – Yes. That’s like the Warren Commission. That was a quick whitewash of everything, and they certainly didn’t talk to a lot of people they should have talked to. And it was just a quick way to get the country, I guess, back on track, and whitewash this whole thing, get it over with. Well, I appreciate the chance to be talking with you, and thank you much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had an experience as a security guard when a preteen reported to me there was blood on a floor. I sent my patrol guard who reported back that it was just soda... Each time I saw the boy again, I thought about Coley’s story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Michael Clark.

Of course I have read the Len Osanic/Jerry Coley interview transcript.

It was this interview that inspired my recent posting about Jack Ruby's out of the ordinary attendance and activity that day centered around the Dallas Morning News building.

If you compare Jerry Coley's recollections regards seeing Jack Ruby in the DMN building the morning of 11,22,1963 to Jack Ruby's meandering Warren Commission testimony recounting his presence there that day, you can't help but see and question the great suspicion arousing contradictions.

Ruby stated to the Warren Commission he didn't arrive to the DMN building until 10 to 10:30 am. Coley says he saw his co-worker talking to Jack Ruby in the building cafeteria at 8:am.

Coley even joined them.

Coley's recollection of his early morning meet up with Ruby was even reported by the esteemed reporter Hugh Ainsworth a day or two later.

Ruby lied about his DMN arrival time by an over two hour time frame.

Ruby inferred that he never left the DMN ad offices until 1:pm or even later.

If so, that would mean he spent a full 5 hours there that day. 5 hours?

Coley said he never recalled Ruby staying more than an hour there previously for Ruby's ad placement meet ups.

Ruby claimed that he went straight to his club from the Dallas Morning News building after learning of JFK's shooting. There bye providing an activity and location alibi that showed he didn't drive to Parkland hospital before hand.

Just read Ruby's crazy testimony below to see how unbelievable and illogical his whole 11/22/1963 morning to noon activity, location and motivation recollection testimony really was.To me, this obviously made up and illogically different than normal tale by Ruby is a much more important

aspect in the Ruby JFK assassination connection story than has been acknowledged and dealt with.

One that still deserves discussion.

Testimony Of Mr. Jack Ruby

Chief Justice WARREN. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 
Mr. RUBY. I do. 
Chief Justice WARREN. Now will you please state whether the things you have just told us are true under your oath? 
Mr. RUBY. I do so state they are the truth. 
Chief Justice WARREN. Now you complete whatever story you want to tell. 
Mr. RUBY. All right. Thursday night I was having dinner at the Egyptian Restaurant on Mockingbird Lane, and a fellow comes over to the table. I was sitting with a guy by the name of Ralph Paul. He tried to invite me to the club a couple of doors down and I refused, because he had taken a band away from me that had been engaged for 7 years, and I felt it was a lost cause, that the club would be failing because of that, and I sort of excused myself and I refused to go over to the club.
We finished our dinner, and I went down to the club that I operated, the Carousel, and this particular master of ceremonies happened to be there at the time, and we discussed a few things.
And there is a columnist by the name of Tony Zoppi--and prior to that, I wrote out a full page copy of this build--I have the copies--as an emcee, and brought a picture and brochure, and Tony said, "I will write a story." This was done 2 days prior to this Thursday night.
So then I went down, so we discussed it and were very much disgusted with Tony because he only gave us a build of one or two lines.
Well, I retired that night after closing the club. Then I knew I wanted to go back to the Morning News Building to get the brochure I left, and also this complete page of longhand writing describing the various talents of this Bill DeMar.
I picked up the brochure that Friday morning, and I also had business at the News Building on Friday because that is the start of the weekend, which is very lucrative, the weekend.
I have ways of making my ads of where they have a way of selling the product I am producing or putting on on the show.
So I went down there Friday morning to Tony Zoppi's office, and they said he went to New Orleans for a couple of days.
I picked up the brochure. I believe I got downtown there at 10:30 or 11 o'clock that morning. And I took the brochure and then went into the main room where we compose our ads. That is the sales room where we placed our ads. And I remained there for a while. I started to write the copy of my ad. Now I go back to the same fellow that wanted me to come over to the club when we were having our dinner on Mockingbird at the Egyptian Lounge.
I came to the desk and I wanted to apologize and explain why I didn't accept his invitation last night. I wanted to explain, and that took about 20 or 25 minutes. All this is pertaining to everything prior to the terrible tragedy that happened.
I started to explain to him why I didn't want to go there, because this fellow mentioned--Tony, I think---I can't think of his last name of me having his band so many years, and I felt at the moment I didn't want to go over to the club because I didn't care to meet this fellow.
And he started to apologize, "Jack, I am sorry, I did work for the fellow and we have been advertising him for that club, and I am putting out a night club book."
I remained with him for 20 or 25 minutes talking there. I don't know whether my ad was completed or not. It was an ad on the Vegas and the Carousel.
My ads were completed, I believe, and after finishing my conversation with him, he left.
Suddenly the man that completes my ads for me, that helps me with it on occasion--but I usually make it up myself--but the person that takes the money for the ads--this is the reason it is so hard for me to meet a deadline when I get downtown to the News Building. And as a rule, I have to pay cash for my ads.
When you are in debt, it is necessary, and they will not put it in unless you pay cash.
And consequently, the weekend, I had been to town on that particular day. All this adds up later on, as I will state why I didn't go to the parade.
In the first place, I don't want to go where there is big crowds. I can't explain it to you. If I was interested, I would have seen it on television, our beloved President and all the parade that transpired.
But all that adds up why it is important for me to be in the News Building.
I owe the Government quite a bit of money, and it is doing business out of your pocket, supposedly, in the slang expression.
Well, John Newnam comes in, and evidently he took it for granted I finished my ad, and I don't recall if he paid for his ad, and suddenly there is some milling around. I think it was 12, or 15 minutes after 12, I don't recall what, but John Newnam said someone had been shot.
And I am sorry, I got carried away. It is the first time I got carried away, because I had been under pressure.
And someone else came running over and he said a Secret Service man was shot, or something to that effect.
And I am here in the middle with John Newnam, because Newnam isn't paying any attention to anyone else, and there is a lot of going back and forth.
So someone must have made a statement that Governor Connally was shot. I don't recall what was said. And I was in a state of hysteria, I mean.
You say, "Oh my God, it can't happen." You carry on crazy sayings.
There was a little television set in one office not far away from where I had been sitting at the desk. I ran over there and noticed a little boy and a little sister say, "I was standing right there when it happened." I mean, different things you hear on the television.
Then the phone started ringing off the desk and I heard John Newnam say people were complaining about the ad, why they accepted this ad.

(A tray of water and glasses was brought in.)

Thank you.
Has every witness been this hesitant in trying to explain their story? 
Chief Justice WARREN. You are doing very well. I can understand why you have to reflect upon a story of that length. 
Mr. RUBY. The phones were ringing off the desk calling various ads, and they were having a turmoil in that News Building because of a person by the name of Bernard Weissman placing that particular ad, a full page ad. I am sure you are familiar with the ad. 
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; I am. 
Mr. RUBY. Criticizing a lot of things about our beloved President. Then John Newnam and I and another gentleman walked over to another part of the room, and I heard John Newnam say, "I told him not to take that ad." Something to that effect.
Then he said, "Well, you have seen him pay part cash and come back and pay the balance."
Now everything is very vague to me as to when this transpired; after they heard the President had been shot, or prior to that.
You know it's been a long time, and I am under a very bad mental strain here. 
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes. 
Mr. RUBY. From the time that we were told that the President was shot, 35 minutes later they said he had passed away. In the meantime, I became very emotional. I called my sister at home. She was carried away terribly bad. And John Newnam happened to be there, and I know it is a funny reaction you have, you want other people to feel that you feel emotionally disturbed the same way as other people, so I let John listen to the phone that my sister was crying hysterically.
And I said to John, I said, "John, I will have to leave Dallas." I don't know why I said that, but it is a funny reaction that you feel; the city is terribly let down by the tragedy that happened. And I said, "John, I am not opening up tonight."
And I don't know what else transpired there. I know people were just heartbroken.
I left the room. I may have left out a few things. Mr. Moore remembers probably more, but you come back and question me and maybe I can answer those questions.
I left the building and I went down and I got my car, and I couldn't stop crying, because naturally when I pulled up to a stoplight and other people would be adjacent to me, I wouldn't want them to see me crying, because it looked kind of artificial.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never come to a firm conclusion about the blood at the top of the steps, near the fence in Dealey Plaza. But if there was blood there, where did it come from? What does it mean/tell us?

It seems strange of course that it would be there, but it also seems unlikely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, Lyndon Johnson has a lot of suspicion about him, but the first question when he phoned J. Edgar Hoover was “Were they shooting at me too?” He didn’t say “he,” he said “they.” He was a little worried, like, “Were they shooting at me too?” So it was more like, he heard the bullets going over the top of his head and he knew. And J. Edgar Hoover assured him “No, we have the gunman, we have three shots, we have the whole thing already wrapped up”, and this is like a day or two right after, so, someone had a story ready to go.

Off on a tangent, but I've always felt that Johnson was playacting when he asked Hoover this, and when he was on Air Force One supposedly shaking about a Communist conspiracy.  This is regardless of the level of involvement you or I might feel LBJ had in the assassination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Darrell Curtis said:

I've never come to a firm conclusion about the blood at the top of the steps, near the fence in Dealey Plaza. But if there was blood there, where did it come from? What does it mean/tell us?

It seems strange of course that it would be there, but it also seems unlikely.

Hi Darrell, Those, or that, pool of blood play large role in my pet “Doublecross” CT.

I think that the JFKA was supposed to look like a conspiracy committed by pro-Castro Cubans and LHO. By eliminating the second shooter (the grassy knoll shooter) you eliminate the conspiracy. I believe a anti-Castro Cuban was sheep-dipped Into the wool of a pro-Castro Cuban shooter and an invasion would take place. But, certain Elements, like the DPD, oil barons and others saw no benefit in freeing Cuba, retuning Mobsters to Havana, and creating competition for sugar, minerals and tourism.

A war, that would last much longer, and force arms and supplies to travel half the world away, would certainly line pockets much more richly than a war that would last days or weeks.

All that needed to happen was make a Cuban shooter disappear from the record.

I think Cubans, mobsters and a stove-piped operation consisting of CIA opearatives and Eastern Blue Bloods got “Double-crossed”.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/9/2019 at 6:56 PM, Michael Clark said:

Hi Darrell, Those, or that, pool of blood play large role in my pet “Doublecross” CT.

I think that the JFKA was supposed to look like a conspiracy committed by pro-Castro Cubans and LHO. By eliminating the second shooter (the grassy knoll shooter) you eliminate the conspiracy. I believe a anti-Castro Cuban was sheep-dipped Into the wool of a pro-Castro Cuban shooter and an invasion would take place. But, certain Elements, like the DPD, oil barons and others saw no benefit in freeing Cuba, retuning Mobsters to Havana, and creating competition for sugar, minerals and tourism.

A war, that would last much longer, and force arms and supplies to travel half the world away, would certainly line pockets much more richly than a war that would last days or weeks.

All that needed to happen was make a Cuban shooter disappear from the record.

I think Cubans, mobsters and a stove-piped operation consisting of CIA opearatives and Eastern Blue Bloods got “Double-crossed”.

 

Michael,

That's an interesting theory, and perhaps it's true. It seems difficult that if such an act were perpetrated, that it would be done in Dealey Plaza. The assassination had already been done, so why not take care of the problem shooter well out of sight were evidence wouldn't be found? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the details here.

The other thing aspect that is difficult to accept is the sheep dipping. How does an anti Castro get sheep dipped as pro-Castro? That doesn't seem something that would be easily accomplished. Surely they could have found simpler means to eliminate a second shooter. Frankly, I always thought all of the shooters were eliminated, and probably didn't live out that weekend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Darrell Curtis said:

Michael,

That's an interesting theory, and perhaps it's true. It seems difficult that if such an act were perpetrated, that it would be done in Dealey Plaza. The assassination had already been done, so why not take care of the problem shooter well out of sight were evidence wouldn't be found? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the details here.

The other thing aspect that is difficult to accept is the sheep dipping. How does an anti Castro get sheep dipped as pro-Castro? That doesn't seem something that would be easily accomplished. Surely they could have found simpler means to eliminate a second shooter. Frankly, I always thought all of the shooters were eliminated, and probably didn't live out that weekend.

Hi Darrell, thanks for you thoughts. There were reports of a secret serviceman having been killed, or (just shot), as well.

My theory fits a lot of long held notions, and answers a lot of questions. That there was a Grassy Knoll shooter seems to be a certainty to me, but what happened to him? Tho operation looked like a conspiracy, head to toe.

My theaory seems, to me, rather elegant, and simple. All you have to do to go from the conspiracy to the Lone Nut, is make one guy disappear from the record and investigation. 

Sheep Dipping is pretty simple in this case. The guy only has to be Cuban and carry some credentials, marking him as pro -Castro. If he lives, or is captured, there is war. If he ends up dead, there is war. Certainly there were Cubans willing to take that risk if it would put an end to Castro or avenge the BOPI which failed, according to them, on Kennedy.

Dallas is the perfect place for this. The police are corrupt and racist. The mayor is CIA, and brother of the Deputy director of the CIA. Dallas’ future as the Silicon Valley of the Cold War was in question (TFX scandal, other military contracts ensured by a Vietnam war and the oil needed to fuel that war, half the world away and promising to last a very long time).

JFK would be dead.

Castro would be killed.

Cuba would be free.

 

Edited by Michael Clark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hi everyone! 🙂 Interesting to return and see this subject being discussed. It's definitely one of the many mysteries of the JFK assassination that fascinates me. Thanks for quoting my transcript @Michael Clark !

Here's Jean Hill's relevant testimony about seeing red liquid on the ground:


Jean Hill – Warren Commission testimony
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_j.htm

Mrs. HILL - Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I Just looked at him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was starting to run?
Mrs. HILL - Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't see him…

Mr. SPECTER - You were trying to catch him?
Mrs. HILL - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - But you couldn't find him any more?
Mrs. HILL - No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around.

Now here's the Warren Commission testimony of Malcolm Couch, 25 year old part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV Dallas, who says that he saw a SECOND pool of blood near the southwest corner of the TSBD.

...
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/couch.htm

Mr. BELIN - Is there any particular reason, Mr. Couch, why you didn't take your first pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn? 
Mr. COUCH - Well, uh - as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground of the people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles - and I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his pistol drawn - the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building - which I had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade - was that - uh - another cameraman from our station, A.J. L'Hoste - [spelling] L-'-H-o-s-t-e - he came running up and - uh - when he ran up, why I said, "you stay here and get some shots of the building and go inside - and I'm going to go back - I'm going to follow the President." 
Mr. BELIN - All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman? 
Mr. COUCH - Yes; right. 
Mr. BELIN - Where was he at the time you made this statement? 
Mr. COUCH - Uh - he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs between the - I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book Depository property and the beginning of the parkway. 
Mr. BELIN - That would be the west side of the Depository Building? 
Mr. COUCH - That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw blood on the sidewalk. 
Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr. Couch? 
Mr. COUCH - That's right. 
Mr. BELIN - Where was that? 
Mr. COUCH - This was the little walkway - steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the book Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book Depository Building. 
Mr. BELIN - Did this appear to be freshly created blood? 
Mr. COUCH - Yes; right. 
Mr. BELIN - About how large was this spot of blood that you saw? 
Mr. COUCH - Uh - from 8 to 10 inches in diameter. 
Mr. BELIN - Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or not? 
Mr. COUCH - No; no one knew. People were watching it - that is watching it carefully and walking and pointing to it. Uh - just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and ran - uh - northward on the side of the building. And my first impression was that - uh - that they had chased someone out of the building around that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All of those policemen had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those shrubs and that west corner and - uh - you would think that there was a chase going on in that direction. 
Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A.J. had come up, and my first concern was to get back with the President. 
Mr. BELIN - This pool of blood - about how far would it have been north of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes under the expressway? 
Mr. COUCH - I'd say - uh - well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself? 
Mr. BELIN - Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the expressway? 
Mr. COUCH - I'd say - uh - 50 to 60 feet, and about 10 to 15 feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building. 
Mr. BELIN - It would be somewhere along that park area there? 
Mr. COUCH - Right. 
Mr. BELIN - Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood? 
Mr. COUCH - No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for something. We thought there would be something else, but - 
Mr. BELIN - There was nothing? 
Mr. COUCH - Huh -uh. 
...

Two things I found in @Vince Palamara 's book "JFK: From Parkland To Bethesda"

Activities of Bertha L. Lozano, registered nurse at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963.
Warren Commission Hearings & Exhibits Vol. 21, Pg. 214

A technician came to the desk and asked me to expect a private patient who was bleeding.
Administration as well as law enforcement agencies and myself continued to help people to waiting rooms and the Blood Bank.
Blood technicians came to ask me who “Mr. X” was who did not have an E.R. number. Hematology also came with the same problem and was told the same thing.

Parkland Administrator Charles Jack Price

Warren Commission Hearings & Exhibits Vol. 21, Pg. 259

...

One of the Secret Service men who had been bruised or had a minor injury came to me and asked if there were another way out of the building.

...

Edited by Denny Zartman
Added Charles Price statement

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, an informal breakdown.

First puddle of blood near the top of the pergola steps west of the TSBD allegedly witnessed by Jerry Coley and witnessed, tasted, and photographed by Jim Hood. This puddle is apparently captured in the Darnell film.

Red liquid was apparently observed on the grassy knoll by Jean Hill and Hugh Aynesworth, even though Aynesworth's investigation allegedly revealed it to be soda and not blood.

Apparently there was a second pool of red liquid that appeared to be consistent with fresh blood was observed by Malcolm Couch near the southwest corner of the TSBD. Couch specifically notes that he observed no broken bottles of soda in the immediate area.

Parkland Nurse Bertha L. Lozano apparently indicates there was a "private patient" that was bleeding and that that person was kept off of the official emergency room record.

Parkland Administrator Charles Jack Price apparently observed a Secret Service agent that had sustained a minor injury.

-

There were early news reports that an agent had been killed during the assassination, but were dismissed as inaccurate later. It seems to me that had someone else been hit by another bullet it would necessitate keeping it absolutely secret. One bullet too many wouldn't fit the timeframe, obviously. Dealing with Tague was tough enough. If this red liquid apparently observed on the ground in Dealey Plaza just after the JFK assassination was indeed only soda, why were there death threats allegedly made against Coley and his wife? Why would FBI agents take the photo negative and urge the news staff to remain silent about the pool of red liquid if it were only soda?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Just me but thanks for returning Denny.  Outstanding synopsis, and the detail to back it up imho.  

I know it wasn't a Sunday but it seems apropos.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=sunday+bloody+sunday&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=6e3b11659a4f4c2681c55fe3b1437577&sp=1&qs=SC&pq=sunday+bloddy&sc=8-13&cvid=6e3b11659a4f4c2681c55fe3b1437577

Red Rocks is so cool, great acoustics.  Full screen is best, it's a bit blurry.  

Edited by Ron Bulman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/12/2019 at 6:58 AM, Michael Clark said:

Hi Darrell, thanks for you thoughts. There were reports of a secret serviceman having been killed, or (just shot), as well.

My theory fits a lot of long held notions, and answers a lot of questions. That there was a Grassy Knoll shooter seems to be a certainty to me, but what happened to him? Tho operation looked like a conspiracy, head to toe.

My theaory seems, to me, rather elegant, and simple. All you have to do to go from the conspiracy to the Lone Nut, is make one guy disappear from the record and investigation. 

Sheep Dipping is pretty simple in this case. The guy only has to be Cuban and carry some credentials, marking him as pro -Castro. If he lives, or is captured, there is war. If he ends up dead, there is war. Certainly there were Cubans willing to take that risk if it would put an end to Castro or avenge the BOPI which failed, according to them, on Kennedy.

Dallas is the perfect place for this. The police are corrupt and racist. The mayor is CIA, and brother of the Deputy director of the CIA. Dallas’ future as the Silicon Valley of the Cold War was in question (TFX scandal, other military contracts ensured by a Vietnam war and the oil needed to fuel that war, half the world away and promising to last a very long time).

JFK would be dead.

Castro would be killed.

Cuba would be free.

 

This just goes to shown the extent of my ignorance. I never knew there had been reports of an SS agent having been killed. So he was somewhere in the vicinity of the top of the steps? What would that do to the idea that there weren't any SS agents on the ground, but only in the motorcade? That's what had made the people showing SS credentials so suspicious, as I understood it.

I'll admit I understand almost nothing about how sheep dipping is done. How would you get an anti Castro Cuban to willingly appear to be pro Castro? Considering how virulent was their hatred of the man, it seems a difficult task, or perhaps that is just my ignorance revealing itself.

I have little doubt about a knoll shooter, in spite of Feister's work. I'm not too sure of anything with regards to the JFKA other than it being a conspiracy. Beyond that, everything exists as probabilities for me. By the knoll shooter is a very high probability in my mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...