So how many conspirators have we narrowed it down to after 44 years?

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

I will say that the classic equation "garbage in=garbage out" might explain why you're disappointed with your results.

____________________________

My-ra,

How could I possibly be "disappointed with my results" when I've never claimed to have any "results" (except proving that "Larry Florer" really was Larry Florer--FWIW). I'm happy just to sit back and watch the names of individuals and groups and associations of individuals and groups of about 1% of all the American adults who were alive in '63 being thrown out as possible conspirators on this forum and others like it.

Keep up the good work!

--Thomas

P.S. Do you still think "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the conspirators? (I remember his calling you a #@&!$ in his last or next-to-last post. It made my day!)

(edited and bumped)

_______________________________

Edited May 14, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Myra Bronstein]

...

P.S. Do you still think "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the conspirators? (I remember his calling you a #@&!$ in his last or next-to-last post. It made my day!)

That was a high point for me too, because it was illustrative of certain things that I knew to be true.

As is this thread Thomas.

[Myra Bronstein]

So how many conspirators have we narrowed it down to after 44 years?, 500 plus or minus 1000?

Wouldn't it be easier to list "who didn't do it?

It sure seems like it.

President Kennedy crossed the whole corrupt crime-riddled establishment.

It's part of what made him great.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[Guest David Guyatt]

David

Sam Giancanna did not write the book "Double Cross"

This book is "Hearsay" !

Charles Black

I was given to understand that it was written by Sam's brother Chuck who shared the credits. Is this what you mean by "hearsay"?

David

Additional Edit below:

Charles, your comments prompted me to Google the book and yes, I stand corrected. I briefly read the John Binder article about the subject.

There is nothing so apt as the old saw that “specialisation” is defined as “knowing more and more about less and less”. My apologies to the list for posting what is obviously an old and well chewed over aspect of the story.

I have a far greater confidence in Bill Pepper’s books about who was responsible for MLK, Peter’s also - which I think is very enlightening in regard to the military-industrial-political-mob ties swirling around the JFK assassination and likewise Fletcher’s, who I had the pleasure of being in contact with prior to his death when doing some research on his old friend, Colonel Edward Lansdale. As I’m sure you already know, Fletcher believed (along with General Krulak) was present in Dallas at the time JFK was assassinated.

My personal interest in the Kennedy story focuses on the occult connections of David Ferrie and Guy Bannister and how these appeared to distantly intersect with the Pasadena Agape lodge of the OTO and Jack Parsons, one of the granddaddy’s of US rocketry, and many curious connections that trace back to Nazi Germany.

Edited May 14, 2007 by David Guyatt

[Charles Black]

Hello David

Yes. there are very many "strange" possible connections.

I however have been prone to maintain that many possible connections have been purposely implanted into this case, by agents of the conspiracy, to muddy up the water. I feel that the continued success of this cover however relates back to the very simplicity of its basics.

I will agin briefly repeat what I think those basics are / were.

1) only a handful at the very top who were essential to the COVER (not the shooting) had to be in place. These few did not even know the specifics of the "kill"!

2) Below them was "the" planner coordinator.

3) Then degrees of the typical intelligence agency multi layering, that insured that those involved knew no more than "their own" particular role.

4) Persons with the ability to terminate threats...these persons would have no idea of the "WHY" of their hits.

This is why I am one of the few who believe that the introduction of Mafia and Anti Castros was only a clever and successful tactic to misdirect thinking and investigation.

There was nothing that the Mafia or the Anti Castros could provide that couldn't have been better and more surely handled by trusted government assets. The "TONGUES" of the mobsters and Cubans was too hard to control. They were bragging about the hit while not even having anything to do with it. All that they knew is what was purposely trickled down to them to satisfy them that "the thing" was going to happen.

The total "brilliance and continued success" of this Coup was a result of its "Simplicity". The research community has self destructed as a result of not believing this pure simplicity !

This of course is just "my speculation"!

Charlie Black

Edited May 14, 2007 by Charles Black

[Jim Glover]

Hello David

Yes. there are very many "strange" possible connections.

I however have been prone to maintain that many possible connections have been purposely implanted into this case, by agents of the conspiracy, to muddy up the water. I feel that the continued success of this cover however relates back to the very simplicity of its basics.

I will agin briefly repeat what I think those basics are / were.

1) only a handful at the very top who were essential to the COVER (not the shooting) had to be in place. These few did not even know the specifics of the "kill"!

2) Below them was "the" planner coordinator.

3) Then degrees of the typical intelligence agency multi layering, that insured that those involved knew no more than "their own" particular role.

4) Persons with the ability to terminate threats...these persons would have no idea of the "WHY" of their hits.

This is why I am one of the few who believe that the introduction of Mafia and Anti Castros was only a clever and successful tactic to misdirect thinking and investigation.

There was nothing that the Mafia or the Anti Castros could provide that couldn't have been better and more surely handled by trusted government assets. The "TONGUES" of the mobsters and Cubans was too hard to control. They were bragging about the hit while not even having anything to do with it. All that they knew is what was purposely trickled down to them to satisfy them that "the thing" was going to happen.

The total "brilliance and continued success" of this Coup was a result of its "Simplicity". The research community has self destructed as a result of not believing this pure simplicity !

This of course is just "my speculation"!

Charlie Black

Hi Folks,

From my experience with this plot from even before it happened, I agree that all of the possible groups, even if they had motive, were also needed to insure the cover-up at the top for "national Security" which was the line LBJ took in order to take the investigation out of the hands of Dallas Police and Texas Attorney General because they kept coming up with evidence that proved a conspiracy.

Now we know that the Dallas Police files and the evidence received by the FBI was that only two spent cartridges were found in the "6th floor nest". Oswald had no nitrate or gunpowder on his body for shooting a rifle or a pistol.

There is no proof that any bullet went through JFK's back and came out his throat because the hole in JFK's back was only half a finger deep.

Also no blood on the magic bullet and the fact that dozens bullet fragments were found in JFK's skull from a bullet or two that exploded and the magic bullet was designed not to explode and is the reason for the metal jacket. Also fragments left in Connely and nothing comparable missing from the magic bullet.

All this and more adds up to the cover-up which is the much bigger crime ( a coup in essence).

as long as we keep focusing on "who shot John" instead of the crime of cover-up, we are playing the conspirators game.

There are still a million documents that are secret so how can we tell who did it before we prosecute the crime of the cover-up which is the main obstacle to finding out who all pulled the triggers.

Jim

[Guest John Gillespie]

...

P.S. Do you still think "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the conspirators? (I remember his calling you a #@&!$ in his last or next-to-last post. It made my day!)

That was a high point for me too, because it was illustrative of certain things that I knew to be true.

As is this thread Thomas.

_______________________________________

Tom,

You could always leave the picnic early. No one would miss you. I see a seat open in "Design And Drama." That would elevate the quality of postings in both forums. More beer for us.

I hope the rumpled sportcoat and the craggy, hammy, world-weary affectations once worked for you somewhere. That memory must be sweet. Hey, check out "Cooperative Learning." That stuff is likely to play over there. Bring the herringbone.

[Thomas Graves]

...

P.S. Do you still think "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the conspirators? (I remember his calling you a #@&!$ in his last or next-to-last post. It made my day!)

That was a high point for me too, because it was illustrative of certain things that I knew to be true.

As is this thread Thomas.

_______________________________________

Tom,

You could always leave the picnic early. No one would miss you. I see a seat open in "Design And Drama." That would elevate the quality of postings in both forums. More beer for us.

I hope the rumpled sportcoat and the craggy, hammy, world-weary affectations once worked for you somewhere. That memory must be sweet. Hey, check out "Cooperative Learning." That stuff is likely to play over there. Bring the herringbone.

__________________________

John,

The following, like your erudite "signature," is from Virgil's The Aeneid, but fortunately only in English:

"Then, having gained this land beyond our reckoning,

We purified ourselves in the sight of Jove

And lit with offerings our altar fires,

Then on the Actian shore held games of Ilium." [emphasis added]

--Thomas

__________________________

[Myra Bronstein]

...

P.S. Do you still think "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the conspirators? (I remember his calling you a #@&!$ in his last or next-to-last post. It made my day!)

That was a high point for me too, because it was illustrative of certain things that I knew to be true.

As is this thread Thomas.

_______________________________________

Tom,

You could always leave the picnic early. No one would miss you. I see a seat open in "Design And Drama." That would elevate the quality of postings in both forums. More beer for us.

I hope the rumpled sportcoat and the craggy, hammy, world-weary affectations once worked for you somewhere. That memory must be sweet. Hey, check out "Cooperative Learning." That stuff is likely to play over there. Bring the herringbone.

John,

With posts of this high quality you just may end up with a fan club.

I might end up being a fan club president.

Thought you should know.

...

"Bring the herringbone."

Oh man what a masterpiece.

[Thomas Graves]

...

P.S. Do you still think "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the conspirators? (I remember his calling you a #@&!$ in his last or next-to-last post. It made my day!)

That was a high point for me too, because it was illustrative of certain things that I knew to be true.

As is this thread Thomas.

_______________________________________

Tom,

You could always leave the picnic early. No one would miss you. I see a seat open in "Design And Drama." That would elevate the quality of postings in both forums. More beer for us.

I hope the rumpled sportcoat and the craggy, hammy, world-weary affectations once worked for you somewhere. That memory must be sweet. Hey, check out "Cooperative Learning." That stuff is likely to play over there. Bring the herringbone.

John,

With posts of this high quality you just may end up with a fan club.

I might end up being a fan club president.

Thought you should know.

...

"Bring the herringbone."

Oh man what a masterpiece.

__________________________________

Gosh,

With Myra B. and J. Gillespie gangin' up on me, makes me think maybe I dunn ruffl'd there fethurs.

"How serious...."

P.S. Myra, Did you become convinced that "Tosh" Plumlee was a witting conspirator before or after he called you that nasty word in his final post?

P.P.S. I think the guy covering his face with his jacket in the famous "Operation 40" restaurant photo is Plumlee. Does that mean he wittingly helped to murder JFK? Not necessarily....

--Thomas

__________________________________

Edited May 16, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Guest David Guyatt]

Charles,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

"Speculation" is the spice of life in these subjects. To a greater or lesser extent we are all ultimately speculating since none of us knows all the answers to what really happened.

I agree with you to the extent that any involvement of the mafia/organised crime was in a subordinate capacity and were not the ones orchestrating the assassination. But I feel sure they were involved. If you haven’t already done so, you might want to read Pepper’s “An Act of State” about the MLK assassination to see what he says about the involvement of Marcello in that affair. It makes interesting reading.

The interconnections of certain elements of the state with organised crime, big business and politics makes considerable sense to me.

I feel sure that LBJ and the powerful Texans were deeply involved. We also now know that Poppy Bush was far closer to the CIA (and probably working for them) back in the Zapata days, thanks to the sterling work of Russ baker and Jonathan Z Larsen, so another of the old speculation about Bush and the Hoover memo appear to be relevant rather than written off (as has been done hitherto) as a conspiracy theory.

Yet I don’t feel at all comfortable with the view that LBJ and the Texans did it alone. That there was an interlock of interests in offing JFK makes far more sense to me.

David

[Guest David Guyatt]

quote:

Gosh,

With Myra B. and J. Gillespie gangin' up on me, makes me think maybe I dunn ruffl'd there fethurs.

"How serious...."

P.S. Myra, Did you become convinced that "Tosh" Plumlee was a witting conspirator before or after he called you that nasty word in his final post?

P.P.S. I think the guy covering his face with his jacket in the famous "Operation 40" restaurant photo is Plumlee. Does that mean he wittingly helped to murder JFK? Not necessarily....

--Thomas

unquote

Thomas,

do you have any reason to suppose that Tosh was that person in the now famous picture?

David

PS, can someone please direct me to the last post of Tosh as referenced above? Thanks.

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas,

Do you have any reason to suppose that Tosh was that person in the now famous picture?

_______________________________

David,

Regarding the identity of the guy who is covering his face with with his jacket, opinions of the "research community" are divided. Many people think he's Frank Sturgis and many people think he's William "Tosh" Plumlee. Having seen both of their photos in several other contexts, I've come to the (obviously subjective) conclusion it's Plumlee. (As they say, "the eyes have it.")

Do some "research" and decide for yourself....

Regards,

--Thomas

_______________________________

Edited May 20, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[John Simkin]

I wonder if the forum has discussed Bill Pepper's latest book "An Act of State" (published 2003) that looks at the fabricated blame placed on James earl Ray for the killing of Martin Luther King? Pepper has now proved in court that Ray was not involved. He goes into great detail about who was responsible in his view and marshals some impressive facts to support that view. Mafia triggermen, US Army Intelligence back-up and so on. I also think it worth mentioning Prof. Peter Dale Scott's book "Deep Politics and the death of JFK".

An Act of State is discussed with Bill Pepper here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5230

Deep Politics is discussed with Peter Dale Scott here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5686

[Guest David Guyatt]

Thank you for those links, John. I was particularly impressed (as usual) with PDS's responses. Calm and well reasoned. He hit it bang on the nail, I think, regarding the sad reality that hinders journalists and historians alike. Of course, what he didn't say out of politeness (but I suspect he knows), is that so many in these communities are to close to the Establishment (or wholly employed by them) to speak out of place.

David