Tripple Underpass

[William Plumlee]

I have said that nobody was on the bridge at the time the President came into the zone. I do remember that there were people above the President on the north side on the underpass, on the bridge, about six or seven as the Limo passed under. I remember Sergio and I questioned that.

"... there were people above the president on the bridge after he had been shot...". (de-briefing West Palm Beach Florida to Rex Beardsley and Bob Bennette and Tracy Barns, report of debriefing transmitted to field HQ, Miami to Bill Harvery, JMWAVE HQ., November 25, 1963) Miami Desk Miami Florida)

The FBI told me in Denver at a latter datem ( Feb 1964) that I was wrong. They said.

"That area above the bridge had been cleared of people before the President came into the Plaza. Nobody was on the bridge. That area had been cleared by the Secret Service before the President got to the Plaza. Why do you insist on incerting yourself into this? You know giving false (FAG) information to a Federal officer can keep you in this jail for a very long time?" (ref; Scott Warner, SAC interview at Denver County Jail Feb. 1964)

"FAG" charge. "False Information to Government officials".

However, I do know that the South side of the underpass was cleared and nobody was there. The north side is another matter. I have questioned over the years photos of this area and of the people on the underpass. One set of prints shows nobody there... another set before the limo came into the zone shows people on the bridge and another six seconds after the fatal shot does not show anyone on the south side or above the President as he and the Limo crossed under. I remember a man leaning over the back of the Limo and notice that people were on the bridge above the limo as it past under. That was just before we reached the man in the pickup truck. Sergio and I were in shock for a few seconds before we started walking away toward the underpass. Most of the people on the north side of the "Tripple Underpass" crossed over the bridge and watched the Limo head for Parkland.

note: It has been said that a south knoll shot would put Jackie and the Texas Gov. in the path and a shot could not have come from the south side of the Plaza. I might point out the slight curve to the southwest at the point of impact about four or five degrees just before it makes a more of a turn, about ten or twenty degrees) before reaching the underpass. If you draw a line and the Limo is even with Main, then the line would rule out a south shot, but turn the limo five degrees to the left (south) and what do you have? A second or two and.., "An open window for a clean shot"...: Check it out. Thank you Tosh.

[Tim Carroll]

deleted for space

Edited November 5, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[William Plumlee]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim draw a line starting from the middle of the RR tracks to the kill zone, starting at the right edge of the underpass and the tree. What do you have? Where was the President in this line of fire? What does it look like west of that area across the RR tracks. Remember this is a later photo and some of the tracks have been removed. ... Tosh

[William Plumlee]

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Tim draw a line starting from the middle of the RR tracks to the kill zone, starting at the right edge of the underpass and the tree. What do you have? Where was the President in this line of fire? What does it look like west of that area across the RR tracks. Remember this is a later photo and some of the tracks have been removed. ... Tosh

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Thanks Tim: I apreciate that. I am not sure if some of the tracks were removed it the time of this photo or not.. also keep in mind that the tracks are above the south parking lot... you can walk along the tracks for (south) about thirty yards before the kill zone can no longer be seen. Any further that this would put Jackie in the line of fire and would be a low shot across the tracks.

[Terry Mauro]

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Tim, Tosh, or James Richards,

Does anyone have a date stating as to when this picture was taken?

Thanks,

Terry

[William Plumlee]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim, Tosh, or James Richards,

Does anyone have a date stating as to when this picture was taken?

Thanks,

Terry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Terry: Not sure this will help. I think it will show it was taken a few years after the assassination and before the Hertz sign was removed form the Trexas School Dep... Compare the south knoll picture taken seconds after the assassination and look at the "tree shadows" of the small trees that lined the south parking lot. notice where the shadows of the lager trees fall on the knoll and at the egge of the street. The small trees are much larger and the larger trees are much taller in the ovetrhead. The south knoll picture was taken at the time of the shooting. The overhead was also taken around noon, but not that day; because the shadows are poniting the same direction as the south photo of 63. The shadows are much larger in the overhead.. I would harzard to guess the overhead was taken about four or fives years later than 1963. (1968) However, this is only a guess. Tosh

[James Richards]

I'm sure Gary Mack will correct me if I am wrong but the photo would have been snapped post 1966. The Hertz sign as Tosh suggested is still there atop the TSBD. It is advertising Ford where in 1963 it was Chevrolet. Also there are overhead signs on Elm (near the corner of Houston) which were put in place in 1966.

James

Edited October 19, 2004 by James Richards

[William Plumlee]

I'm sure Gary Mack will correct me if I am wrong but the photo would have been snapped post 1966. The Hertz sign as Tosh suggested is still there on Elm. It is advertising Ford where in 1963 it was Chevrolet. Also there are overhead signs on Elm (near the corner of Houston) which were put in place in 1966.

James

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Thanks James: I apreciate the information and dates...

[James Richards]

This first image below taken moments after the shooting shows the collection of people gathered above where the limo passed under only seconds before.

The second image shows a collection of spectators (and one police officer) who ran up the knoll and gathered at the fence. It does make one wonder.

FWIW.

James

[Shanet Clark]

RE-EDITED --THIS POST IS NEW AND OUT OF ORDER

Look at the two pictures above and think about what Tosh is saying about a team in place to observe (whatever) and then be debriefed by Barnes and Harvey. Eleven people are seen, males, some in suits and hats, some with radios, up over the road. You can't see up and away to the left, the overpass at the south knoll, a position which was in fact looking JFK straight on at the time of the barrage.

In the photo at right, fourteen people are peering over the underpass/grassy knoll fence, looking back at the railyards, but apparently unable to clamber onto the rail overpass, to get to where all the other guys are already. The eleven people securing the left photo got in place quickly, and there is immense interest in the fence (and the overpass tracks) in the other photo. THere are thirteen people in the Bell photo (below) at the time the limo goes under!

In general the overpass would be a central focus for anyone planning

to ambush the motorcade or observe the action. Its hard to believe no one was up there, the view was just too good, and Tosh points out how it trails safely away to the left (southeast).

Perhaps because the traditional attention paid to 1) THe Witnesses of a grassy knoll shot, AND the Oswald story, AND the point of view of ZAPRUDER, AND the back shots being from the Dal-tex/county records vicinity (ballistically) we have discounted this third, fully triangulating position that our associate Tosh Plumlee is telling us about...a gunman across the road and up the hill looking down and across at the limo....triangulation, you understand...Plumlee says he flew Johnny Roselli into Dallas, so its safe to say he is a candidate for the third position, (with Files and Nicolletti, possibly?)

Also RR tracks are notoriously good escape routes.

Shanet

This first image below taken moments after the shooting shows the collection of people gathered above where the limo passed under only seconds before.

The second image shows a collection of spectators (and one police officer) who ran up the knoll and gathered at the fence. It does make one wonder.

FWIW

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited October 22, 2004 by Shanet Clark

[William Plumlee]

This first image below taken moments after the shooting shows the collection of people gathered above where the limo passed under only seconds before.

The second image shows a collection of spectators (and one police officer) who ran up the knoll and gathered at the fence. It does make one wonder.

FWIW.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When it is said that a shooter on the south knoll would be seen, then how could a shooter at the picket fence not been seen? You had people on the overpass, not more that twenty-five yards and you had people in front of the north knoll shooter, and others a few feet to the right of the shooter (if your facing west) Some of these people were no more than ten feet from the picket fence and the shooter standing in front of him. That would be the worst place for a sniper, because he had put himself between people looking basicly toward his direction, (the overpass) even if he was behind a fence, it would be risky. If we say this was a really planned tight execution that has not been figured out in all these years and so much trouble went into the cover up.., then why was a shooter put there... stupid I say. When you go to the Plaza try this. Go down to the south side of the rail road tracks and yell as loud as you can in the direction of the kill zone.., and watch the people in the plaza first look toward the the north side of the rail road tracks, then toward you. I think you will find that interesting. But I am no expert.

[Antti Hynonen]

have said that nobody was on the bridge at the time the President came into the zone. I do remember that there were people above the President on the north side on the underpass, on the bridge, about six or seven as the Limo passed under. I remember Sergio and I questioned that.

"... there were people above the president on the bridge after he had been shot...". (de-briefing West Palm Beach Florida to Rex Beardsley and Bob Bennette and Tracy Barns, report of debriefing transmitted to field HQ, Miami to Bill Harvery, JMWAVE HQ., November 25, 1963) Miami Desk Miami Florida)

The FBI told me in Denver at a latter datem ( Feb 1964) that I was wrong. They said.

"That area above the bridge had been cleared of people before the President came into the Plaza. Nobody was on the bridge. That area had been cleared by the Secret Service before the President got to the Plaza. Why do you insist on incerting yourself into this? You know giving false (FAG) information to a Federal officer can keep you in this jail for a very long time?" (ref; Scott Warner, SAC interview at Denver County Jail Feb. 1964)

"FAG" charge. "False Information to Government officials".

However, I do know that the South side of the underpass was cleared and nobody was there. The north side is another matter. I have questioned over the years photos of this area and of the people on the underpass. One set of prints shows nobody there... another set before the limo came into the zone shows people on the bridge and another six seconds after the fatal shot does not show anyone on the south side or above the President as he and the Limo crossed under. I remember a man leaning over the back of the Limo and notice that people were on the bridge above the limo as it past under. That was just before we reached the man in the pickup truck. Sergio and I were in shock for a few seconds before we started walking away toward the underpass. Most of the people on the north side of the "Tripple Underpass" crossed over the bridge and watched the Limo head for Parkland.

note: It has been said that a south knoll shot would put Jackie and the Texas Gov. in the path and a shot could not have come from the south side of the Plaza. I might point out the slight curve to the southwest at the point of impact about four or five degrees just before it makes a more of a turn, about ten or twenty degrees) before reaching the underpass. If you draw a line and the Limo is even with Main, then the line would rule out a south shot, but turn the limo five degrees to the left (south) and what do you have? A second or two and.., "An open window for a clean shot"...: Check it out. Thank you Tosh.

See picture from Bell film below. There are about 12 people on the railroad overpass as the Limo is going under it.

I wonder if anyone knows who the 2 people walking south in the front of the photo are? Maybe they have been questioned as witnesses?

[Terry Mauro]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim, Tosh, or James Richards,

Does anyone have a date stating as to when this picture was taken?

Thanks,

Terry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Terry: Not sure this will help. I think it will show it was taken a few years after the assassination and before the Hertz sign was removed form the Trexas School Dep... Compare the south knoll picture taken seconds after the assassination and look at the "tree shadows" of the small trees that lined the south parking lot. notice where the shadows of the lager trees fall on the knoll and at the egge of the street. The small trees are much larger and the larger trees are much taller in the ovetrhead. The south knoll picture was taken at the time of the shooting. The overhead was also taken around noon, but not that day; because the shadows are poniting the same direction as the south photo of 63. The shadows are much larger in the overhead.. I would harzard to guess the overhead was taken about four or fives years later than 1963. (1968) However, this is only a guess. Tosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Tosh. I also went back to the black and white picture taken on the day of the shooting, where you were describing the exact areas where you and Sergio were standing to the left of the forked tree shadow and the pick-up truck. I could make out a figure wearing, what I perceived to be light-colored trousers, but had difficulty seeing the other person as clearly due to the grain of the picture and most likely due to the shadow that person was standing in at the time the picture was being shot. Therefore, when Tim posted this colored picture of a bird's eye-view of the plaza, I noticed how much thicker the trees themselves appeared to be, as if they'd had time to fill out, compared to the the black and white photo (that I believe Wim had posted) of the day of the shooting. I'm most appreciative of you pointing this out, as I was always under the impression that you were more closer to the street and possibly in front of the structure of the over-pass, instead of where, in reality, you actually were. I'd also like to thank Tim for putting up the color photo, and James and yourself for clarifying the year.

Terry

[Tim Carroll]

deleted for space

Edited November 5, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, I also went back to the black and white picture taken on the day of the shooting, where you were describing the exact areas where you and Sergio were standing to the left of the forked tree shadow and the pick-up truck. I could make out a figure wearing, what I perceived to be light-colored trousers, but had difficulty seeing the other person as clearly due to the grain of the picture and most likely due to the shadow that person was standing in at the time the picture was being shot. Therefore, when Tim posted this colored picture of a bird's eye-view of the plaza, I noticed how much thicker the trees themselves appeared to be, as if they'd had time to fill out, compared to the the black and white photo (that I believe Wim had posted) of the day of the shooting. I'm most appreciative of you pointing this out, as I was always under the impression that you were closer to the street and possibly in front of the structure of the overpass, instead of where, in reality, you actually were. I'd also like to thank Tim for putting up the color photo, and James and yourself for clarifying the year.

Terry

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A picture is worth a thousand words. Here is the photo of the South Knoll. It would be helpful if Tosh could circle the precise location he's describing. I understand his estimation of the South Knoll shooter's location to be about 5 yards east of the underpass at the fence line. If that is not sufficiently precise, I hope Tosh will correct me, perhaps even with a circled location in the provided photo. Maybe when I'm there in a few weeks and taking a photo of the proposed South Knoll shooter's angle onto Elm St., I'll try out Tosh's audio experiment by yelling out "Bang bang bang" and have my wife tell me where the sound seemed to come from. For Dealey Plaza that probably wouldn't constitute strange behavior. . . .

Tim

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Terry and Tim: If you look at the peak of the roof in the background and a little left of the pickup truck.., and IF there was a south knoll shooter.., he would be perhaps on the railroad tracks on in the parking lot, (in line with the peak of the roof or a little bit to the right of it left of the pickup) or mabe back into the lot near a parked car.

If you look at the left side of the picture above the man and the car roof in the shadows, that is where Sergio and I were standing. As you can see the Limo had already gone under the bridge and in the Bell picture there is a man standing about center of the overpass. I think he went to the otherside (west) to see the limo heading for Parklland Hospital.

I have said I think I was waring tan pants and a light , but I really do'n't remember for sure... we did have a clip board but I can't remember who was holding it..... I do not know how to draw a circle and get it posted.... well I should correct that.., I do know how to draw a circle, almost. I know more than most operatives. Tosh