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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

Just because Vickie Adams was allowed back into the TSBD by a DPD cop who was turning people away, doesn't allow us to conclude that the TSBD was free and clear to come and go.  

The front door was being guarded by a DPD cop, and Vickie Adams didn't offer any more details, and WC attorney Belin didn't ask any more questions about it.  There's not enough detail -- yet we do know the front door was being guarded by at least one DPD cop at the point when Vickie Adams wanted to get back in.  

Yes, I agree that it doesn't lead to the conclusion that the TSBD was free and clear to come and go, I just don't think that the fact that Adams was let back in is synonymous with it being 'sealed off'.  For me, being 'sealed off' would mean no one is allowed in or out, period. Adams did get in so to me it wasn't sealed off fully at that time - the 'fully' being an important qualifier... but yes, at the time Adams re-entered the door was being 'guarded' by a DPD cop...

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

  What is really needed at this point is a more solid time-table to estimate the exact minute when the TSBD was sealed off, officially.
 

I haven't read all of your comment on that topic yet, but will go back to it after posting this, I notice your conclusion puts the time of the TSBD being officially sealed off at 12:40...

From reading through the 'transcript' of the Dallas Police Tapes I have gleamed the following;

12:34
142 (Patrolman C.A. Haygood)  - I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top.

12:36
260 (Sergeant D.V. Harkness)  - I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store.

12:36
260 (Sgt. D.V. Harkness)  - Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building.

12:37
22 (Patrolman L.L. Hill)  - Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end.

12:37
137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer)  - We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building.
Dispatcher  - All right, do you have the building covered off?
137 - No, about 3/4 of a block away from there.
Dispatcher - All right, pull on down there.
137 - 10-4. I'll leave these witnesses here.

12:43
Dispatcher  - Yes, we are trying to seal off that building until it can be searched.

12:45 (description of 'suspect' broadcast)
15 (Captain C.E. Talbert)  - Could 9 determine whether man was supposed to have been still in the building or was he supposed to have left?
Dispatcher  - I didn't know for sure and the witnesses didn't have the description, but we have got that building surrounded by now and we should know something before long.

From that information I think it is fair to say that the 'official' sealing off of the building, inasmuch as being the point where no one was allowed in or out, happened sometime approx. 12:40. and no later than 12:45.

Also from that information perhaps the following can be drawn...

At 12:36 Harkness, being nearest to the door, decided to attempt to 'seal' off the building by positioning himself on the top steps. At 12:37 Vickie Adams arrives at the parked motorcycle in time to hear Brewer's comments about the 'second floor', so makes the decision to go back inside, and on the steps comes across Harkness who lets her in after she tells him she works there, Harkness sees no problem in this as he is trying to seal off the building (with regards to not letting anyone leave).

That does tie in quite nicely with what Adams said in her testimony; on the part about listening to the radio,

Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---

Righteo, Paul, I will now go back and read your comment on the timings and see how/if it ties in with that at all - I have a feeling that it might tie in relatively nicely and that we might be making some good progress here; fingers crossed. ;)

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Ok Paul, have read your post now, and have drawn some possible time-lines from it with reference to a couple of things, first time-line is to tie in Sawyer, Harkness and Adams and the sealing off of the building.

12:34 Sawyer hears DPD Radio dispatcher say a passerby identified the TSBD as the source of the shots. He rushes to it!
12:35 Sawyer arrives at the TSBD, enters and encounters and employee and two officers and they take elevator to top floor and have quick look around.
12:36 Harkness arrives at the door.
12:37 Adams hears mention of '2nd floor' on motorcycle and then goes to re-enter the building. Harkness lets her in.
12:39 Sawyer and the two officers arrive back down after a quick look around the top floor.
         Sawyer leaves two officers on the door with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
         Sawyer sends Harkness round the back to make sure the back is sealed off.
         Harkness runs round to the back to check.
12: 40 Harkness arrives back at the front to tell Sawyer the back is 'secure'.

Second time-line to tie in with Lovelady/Shelley entering the back and seeing Adams, and Adams leaving the back and being told to get back in...

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

10.  DPD Officer Welcome Barnett said:  I was on Elm, directly in front of the TSBD.  I saw nothing unusual until 12:30 when I heard the shots, and I thought they came from the top of the TSBD building.  I figured the shooter would run down the fire escape, so I ran to the back of the building at Houston, and watched the back door and the fire escape.  All I could see was DPD police searching cars in the parking lot behind the picket fence.  I watched the back door and the fire escape for maybe 3 minutes, and about 12:33 Sergeant Howard ordered me to the front of the building to tell him the name printed on the door.  So I ran to do that.  At that time, I saw people freely coming out and going into the TSBD.  I ran back to Sergeant Howard to tell him the name of the building, and I said we should seal off the building.  

12:33 Whilst Howard is telling Barnett to run round the front to get the name of the building, Lovelady/Shelley enter the back of the building at the same time that Adams is on her way to leave. Right after Barnett has left on his 'errand', Adams leaves the building and comes across Howard who tells her to 'get back in the building'... she instead goes via the front. Howard remains there until Barnett arrives back with the message that because people are still freely coming and going at the front it needs to be sealed off...

With Barnett watching the back until 12:33 and then Howard watching it whilst Barnett went round the front and came back... and the front door not having any DPD officers there until 12:36 and the front pretty much being covered from that point on, I can't help but thinking that it all leads to the conclusion that Oswald must have left via the front before 12:36!

Thoughts!

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8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Anyway -- Pierce Allman is the name of the cub reporter who claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald pointed the way to the TSBD telephone to him as he ran into the TSBD within seconds of the JFK shooting. 

Where are you getting 'within seconds' from? In an interview Allman did he put it at more like 3 minutes after the shots. Just saying.

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On 20/01/2017 at 10:56 PM, Michael Clark said:

Oswald may very well have been hanging around inside or outside or both, and had some freedom of movement during that 15-20 minutes. He had already been cleared by Truly to officer Baker and he had directed another officer to a phone. The "he's alright" might have gone around a few times between officers as things were tightened-up and sorted out. He only drew attention to himself by the fact that he turned-up missing at some point, when Truly or Shelly identified him as the only missing employee,

Michael, sorry, I did mean to respond to this when I first saw it, apologies if you thought it had been unseen...

... just wanted to say that I like your thinking there - I had never thought of it that way before, a proverbial 'get out of jail card' - an interesting thought. :)

Regards

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14 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Michael, sorry, I did mean to respond to this when I first saw it, apologies if you thought it had been unseen...

... just wanted to say that I like your thinking there - I had never thought of it that way before, a proverbial 'get out of jail card' - an interesting thought. :)

Regards

Thanks for the reply Allistair... 

I noticed a mistake I made when Paul Replied. Ozzie directed a reporter to the phone, not a cop.

 

Cheers, Mike

Edited by Michael Clark
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7 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Thanks for the reply Allistair... 

I noticed a mistake I made when Paul Replied. Ozzie directed a reporter to the phone, not a cop.

 

Cheers, Mike

Here is an excerpt from Bugliosi's book Four Days In November in regards to that;

"Oswald is suddenly intrigued by Agent Kelley.
"Are you and FBI agent?" he asks.
"No, I'm not," Kelley tells him. "I'm a member of the Secret Service."
"Oh, I see," Oswald says, nodding his head. "When I was standing in front of the Depositry, about to leave, a young crew-cut man rushed up and said he was from the Secret Service, showed me a book of identification, and asked where the phone was."
"Did you show him?" Kelley asks.
"Well, I pointed towards the pay phone in the building," Oswald says, "and he started toward it, and then I left."

On the assumption that the veracity of what was said there was accurate, perhaps Oswald is adding in the bit about 'said he was from the SS, showed me a book of identification' in an attempt to show 'trust' towards Kelley and the SS, like, 'I helped you lot out - I'm a good guy - trust me - help me', an after the fact attempt at a 'quid pro quo'(ish) thing... Just a thought!

The 'official' story is that it was actually reporter Pierce Allman that Oswald had the encounter with. Paul has already highlighted an 'issue' on that count...

On 21/01/2017 at 3:17 AM, Paul Trejo said:

Anyway -- Pierce Allman is the name of the cub reporter who claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald pointed the way to the TSBD telephone to him as he ran into the TSBD within seconds of the JFK shooting.  

The trouble with Pierce Allman is that he reported this THREE FULL WEEKS after the JFK shooting.  This increases the chances that his was just one more case of mistaken identity.

*Note, Allman actually said it happened approx. 3 minutes after the shots, not 'within seconds'.

Yes it was 3 weeks later that Allman made the connection between the person he asked where the phone was and it being Oswald. Paul posits that such a delay implies a case of 'mistaken identity'. It could just be that in the heat of the moment, with Allman's thoughts primarily on trying to phone his story in (quicker than other reporters, to get a 'scoop') he did not pay that much attention to who he asked for directions to the phone... and although he saw Oswald's face in the media many times in the days that followed he just never made the link until it was pointed out to him that Oswald, in interrogation, had claimed that when he was leaving the TSBD someone asked for directions to the phone - at which point Allman made the connection and came to the conclusion that it was Oswald he had encountered.

*All of this does tie in quite nicely with the thinking that Oswald left the TSBD approx. 3 minutes after the time of the shots. Alas, it is not overly helping in working out where Oswald had been in the minutes before, and as such doesn't rule him out as being 'Prayer Man' and it doesn't rule him out as being the '6th floor shooter', and it doesn't rule him out from being anywhere else in the building at the time.

Happy to hear your thoughts on this Michael. :)

Regards

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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Here is an excerpt from Bugliosi's book Four Days In November in regards to that;

"Oswald is suddenly intrigued by Agent Kelley.
"Are you and FBI agent?" he asks.
"No, I'm not," Kelley tells him. "I'm a member of the Secret Service."
"Oh, I see," Oswald says, nodding his head. "When I was standing in front of the Depositry, about to leave, a young crew-cut man rushed up and said he was from the Secret Service, showed me a book of identification, and asked where the phone was."
"Did you show him?" Kelley asks.
"Well, I pointed towards the pay phone in the building," Oswald says, "and he started toward it, and then I left."

On the assumption that the veracity of what was said there was accurate, perhaps Oswald is adding in the bit about 'said he was from the SS, showed me a book of identification' in an attempt to show 'trust' towards Kelley and the SS, like, 'I helped you lot out - I'm a good guy - trust me - help me', an after the fact attempt at a 'quid pro quo'(ish) thing... Just a thought!

The 'official' story is that it was actually reporter Pierce Allman that Oswald had the encounter with. Paul has already highlighted an 'issue' on that count...

*Note, Allman actually said it happened approx. 3 minutes after the shots, not 'within seconds'.

Yes it was 3 weeks later that Allman made the connection between the person he asked where the phone was and it being Oswald. Paul posits that such a delay implies a case of 'mistaken identity'. It could just be that in the heat of the moment, with Allman's thoughts primarily on trying to phone his story in (quicker than other reporters, to get a 'scoop') he did not pay that much attention to who he asked for directions to the phone... and although he saw Oswald's face in the media many times in the days that followed he just never made the link until it was pointed out to him that Oswald, in interrogation, had claimed that when he was leaving the TSBD someone asked for directions to the phone - at which point Allman made the connection and came to the conclusion that it was Oswald he had encountered.

*All of this does tie in quite nicely with the thinking that Oswald left the TSBD approx. 3 minutes after the time of the shots. Alas, it is not overly helping in working out where Oswald had been in the minutes before, and as such doesn't rule him out as being 'Prayer Man' and it doesn't rule him out as being the '6th floor shooter', and it doesn't rule him out from being anywhere else in the building at the time.

Happy to hear your thoughts on this Michael. :)

Regards

Thanks for all that Allistair. I have to hand it you you and folks like you who are willing to sort this thing out, down to the second, after so many years. My mind just doesn't work that way, I lack the imagination that it can be sorted out to such a minute level after so long.

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On 1/21/2017 at 5:42 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

Where are you getting 'within seconds' from? In an interview Allman did he put it at more like 3 minutes after the shots. Just saying.

Alistair,

Right -- it was three minutes, not mere "seconds".

Regards,
--Paul  

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On 1/21/2017 at 5:32 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

Ok Paul, have read your post now, and have drawn some possible time-lines from it with reference to a couple of things, first time-line is to tie in Sawyer, Harkness and Adams and the sealing off of the building.

12:34 Sawyer hears DPD Radio dispatcher say a passerby identified the TSBD as the source of the shots. He rushes to it!
12:35 Sawyer arrives at the TSBD, enters and encounters and employee and two officers and they take elevator to top floor and have quick look around.
12:36 Harkness arrives at the door.
12:37 Adams hears mention of '2nd floor' on motorcycle and then goes to re-enter the building. Harkness lets her in.
12:39 Sawyer and the two officers arrive back down after a quick look around the top floor.
         Sawyer leaves two officers on the door with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
         Sawyer sends Harkness round the back to make sure the back is sealed off.
         Harkness runs round to the back to check.
12: 40 Harkness arrives back at the front to tell Sawyer the back is 'secure'.

Second time-line to tie in with Lovelady/Shelley entering the back and seeing Adams, and Adams leaving the back and being told to get back in...

12:33 Whilst Howard is telling Barnett to run round the front to get the name of the building, Lovelady/Shelley enter the back of the building at the same time that Adams is on her way to leave. Right after Barnett has left on his 'errand', Adams leaves the building and comes across Howard who tells her to 'get back in the building'... she instead goes via the front. Howard remains there until Barnett arrives back with the message that because people are still freely coming and going at the front it needs to be sealed off...

With Barnett watching the back until 12:33 and then Howard watching it whilst Barnett went round the front and came back... and the front door not having any DPD officers there until 12:36 and the front pretty much being covered from that point on, I can't help but thinking that it all leads to the conclusion that Oswald must have left via the front before 12:36!

Thoughts!

Alistair,

Yes, you've done some careful estimations here, and I like your numbers.   Going by the DPD dispatch radio messages, furthermore, we can narrow down your time-frame, from 12:40 to 12:45, closer to 12:40.

I also like your time-estimates of Vickie Adams and Billy Lovelady.

Now -- getting back to the theme of this thread -- whether Prayer Man was really Lee Harvey Oswald: if (and only if) we can agree that 12:40 was the time when the TSBD was sealed-off by DPD policemen (at least mostly sealed off), then IMHO the crucial question is this: 

At what approximate time was the photograph of Prayer Man taken?   It is part of a film, and I feel certain that many years of analysis have already been expended on this question -- but I would like to see it settled and agreed upon in this thread.  Lovelady and Shelley are nowhere in this photograph.  Vickie Adams is nowhere in this photograph.   What is the time, please?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

At what approximate time was the photograph of Prayer Man taken?   It is part of a film, and I feel certain that many years of analysis have already been expended on this question -- but I would like to see it settled and agreed upon in this thread.  Lovelady and Shelley are nowhere in this photograph.  Vickie Adams is nowhere in this photograph.   What is the time, please?

The film that shows Prayer Man standing in the door, also shows Officer Baker run across the street in the direction of the TSBD (passing Truly on his way), the film also shows two people in the process of walking down the street, and although some people have made the claim that 1) Baker looks like he is going to run right past the entrance and on to somewhere else, before coming back to the entrance! and 2) the two people walking down the street are NOT Lovelady/Shelley... it is my opinion that both those claims are wrong.

This might help...

darnellcouchsync24fpsa6kkb.gif

There is another one I recall, that I think shows it better, but can't locate it at the moment but as soon as I do I will edit it in to this post.

As for the time - 30 seconds after the shots.

 

 

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The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the 313 head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds.

 

Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.

 

Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and  picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his  run down the knoll.

 

Gerda’s dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.

 

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

 

Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to

Baker before we see him in Gerda’s dual-sync.

 

Baker’s run to the curb equals 4 seconds.

 

This total = approx 30 seconds.

 
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3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

some people have made the claim that 1) Baker looks like he is going to run right past the entrance

Here is photo-analytical proof that  Baker ran right past the TSBD entrance:

Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building?

Here is Baker's final step in the video:

Click to enlarge!

bakers_final_step_zpssgb8s4n3.gif


The blue line connects where Baker's toes hit the asphalt. The gray line is the edge of the curb. At the end, Baker is running almost parallel to the curb.

This is verified by comparing the blue line and Baker with the red line. The red line connects the footsteps of the woman running toward the sidewalk. (She is hidden at the end of the video by the close-up man on the very right.) It can be seen in previous frames that the woman is running straight to the mailbox on the right of the steps. (Because she is incidentally following the path of her shadow, and her shadow is pointing toward the mailbox.)

Baker's last step crosses over the woman's path, and so he is running close to perpendicular to her path. Therefore, on his last step Baker is roughly in front of the mailbox.

Another confirmation of my claim is that, before Baker's change in course (where he veers to the right) we can see his rear end. We also see the woman's rear end and the rear ends of others crossing the road. HOWEVER, at Baker's final step we no longer see his rear end. Instead we see a side view of him.

Look again... we see the woman's rear end, but the side view of Baker. They are running perpendicular to one another.

BTW, Baker is close to 16 feet away from the stairway as he passes it by. We know this because study of the shadows shows them to be about a long as the person is tall. At the end of the clip, the head of Baker's shadow just barely rises up the face of the curb. So he is about 6 feet from the sidewalk. Than add to that the width of the sidewalk. I am told it is 10 ft wide. (The TSBD steps may extend out into the sidewalk. If so, the distance of that extension should be subtracted from the 16 ft. approximation.)

This is irrefutable proof that Baker wasn't headed for the TSBD. The only question is, when did Baker change his mind, turn around, and go up the steps. Going by Shelley and Lovelady's WC testimonies, he did so about three minutes after the shooting. Which is about 2.5 minutes after the end of the video.

Note that Lovelady can still be seen on the steps at the end of this video. So he cannot be one of the two guys walking toward the railroad yard in this video. This fact corresponds with Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimonies.

 

 

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Sandy, with the utmost of respect, please look at what I said in totality rather than cherry-picking the bit that suits your needs...

In a direct response to a question asked by Paul, on the subject of when the timing of the Prayer Man photo was taken, I mentioned two points of interest, the first being that Officer Baker is seen running across the street in the direction of the TSBD (passing Truly on his way) and that film also shows two people in the process of walking down the street. Note that at no point did I say that in the film Baker is seen running up the steps into the TSBD, and also note at no point did I say that the two people seen in the film walking were Shelley/Lovelady... (I may well be of the opinion that it is those 2 and that Baker did run straight in to the TSBD, but note there was no need for me to delve in to any reasons why I think that as it is not required, and with that not being required, a rebuttal of a point that wasn't made isn't required either!)

Anyroads, I will just re-iterated the point on the timing that Paul asked about by quoting the relevant part of my comment and the comment from Chris too...

 

4 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

This might help...

darnellcouchsync24fpsa6kkb.gif

There is another one I recall, that I think shows it better, but can't locate it at the moment but as soon as I do I will edit it in to this post.

As for the time - 30 seconds after the shots.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the 313 head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds.

 

Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.

 

Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and  picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his  run down the knoll.

 

Gerda’s dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.

 

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

 

Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to

Baker before we see him in Gerda’s dual-sync.

 

Baker’s run to the curb equals 4 seconds.

 

This total = approx 30 seconds.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Sandy, with the utmost of respect, please look at what I said in totality rather than cherry-picking the bit that suits your needs...

 

Alistair,

I didn't cherry pick at all. Unless you consider it cherry picking when someone responds to one particular thing you say. Here is what you said:

...although some people have made the claim that 1) Baker looks like he is going to run right past the entrance and on to somewhere else, before coming back to the entrance! and 2) the two people walking down the street are NOT Lovelady/Shelley... it is my opinion that both those claims are wrong.

In my response I refuted what I have highlighted here in red. I didn't quote the unhighlighted part (#2), as I had no argument with that.

Then, at the end of my post I made the side comment:

Note that Lovelady can still be seen on the steps at the end of this video. So he cannot be one of the two guys walking toward the railroad yard in this video. This fact corresponds with Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimonies.

Which agrees with your assessment, #2 quoted above. I apologize if somehow that comment could have been construed as me disputing your opinion regarding that.



EDIT: If your point is that I was disputing a comment of yours that wasn't the main point of your post... well, I don't see anything wrong with doing that. My intention is to always point out a fallacy when it is clearly that. For the benefit of newbies. Others who disagree with my assessment are free to do the same.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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8 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 Here is what you said:

...although some people have made the claim that 1) Baker looks like he is going to run right past the entrance and on to somewhere else, before coming back to the entrance! and 2) the two people walking down the street are NOT Lovelady/Shelley... it is my opinion that both those claims are wrong.

In my response I refuted what I have highlighted here in red. I didn't quote the unhighlighted part (#2), as I had no argument with that.

Then, at the end of my post I made the side comment:

Note that Lovelady can still be seen on the steps at the end of this video. So he cannot be one of the two guys walking toward the railroad yard in this video. This fact corresponds with Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimonies.

Which agrees with your assessment, #2 quoted above. I apologize if somehow that comment could have been construed as me disputing your opinion regarding that.

For a point of clarification, when I said 'it is my opinion that both those claims are wrong', the both clearly refers to point 1) & point 2); that is to say that it is my opinion that the thought Baker ran past the entrance is wrong AND the thought that the two seen walking are NOT Lovelady/Shelley is wrong.

From your words you are of the opinion that both those points are correct; that is to say that it is your opinion that the thought Baker ran past the entrance is correct AND the thought that the two seen walking are NOT Lovelady/Shelley is correct.

I hope that helps clear up the confusion!

Anyroads,

you have made it previously clear that you take Lovelady/Shelley's 3 minutes until seeing Baker go up the stairs as being an accurate time and thus Baker from last being seen in the clip had to have spent another 2.5 minutes doing something else before making his way up the steps... that is what your research has led you to conclude - fine, I have no problem with that (I disagree with it though)...

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This is irrefutable proof that Baker wasn't headed for the TSBD. The only question is, when did Baker change his mind, turn around, and go up the steps. Going by Shelley and Lovelady's WC testimonies, he did so about three minutes after the shooting. Which is about 2.5 minutes after the end of the video.

Note that Lovelady can still be seen on the steps at the end of this video. So he cannot be one of the two guys walking toward the railroad yard in this video. This fact corresponds with Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimonies.

On the one hand you are holding up the testimony of both Shelley & Lovelady as being witnesses who are 100% accurate with their timing of 3 minutes - have you considered just how many other witnesses have to be totally wrong to make that work? I could give you about 10 straight off the bat!

Anyway, at this point I would like to quote two other comments from the other thread you linked to earlier as I think both are quite apt here...

First, a comment made by Bill Miller. in direct response to something you said...

Quote

Baker heard the first shot while on Houston and turned onto Elm where he then parked his cycle a few feet short of the stop-light. He paused for a moment and looked down the street to see people falling to the ground and proceeded to run towards the steps of the TSBD. His last leap is onto the sidewalk in front of the steps. One could say Baker was undecided as to which  building the shots came from (Dal-tex or TSBD) and chose one at the last second if they like. All I am saying is that there is no evidence that he was going anywhere but to steps in my view.

Secondly, a comment made by David Lifton in direct response to someone who had responded to something you said

Quote

For these reasons, I am reluctant to enter into, and then attempt to descend, into this "rabbit hole", which I believe to be (a) incorrect and (b ) (largely) irrelevant.

Regards

 

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