The Flight To Dallas

[William Plumlee]

Edited December 25, 2007 by William Plumlee

[Chris Cox]

Tosh, you are right --info from FOIA files (FBI loved to keep files on people, the SACs kept busy) only as good as how complete they are. Especially 105 files were distributed among associated agencies.

Your's shows that half the story reached the congressional investigators. Of course Hoover is in here because he controlled info going to all the key investigations, from his FBI.

Too bad we file FOIAs and expect some due process but there are some docs that slip through and reveal the unexpected. Your files illustrate this as do mine.

My files on my father clearly show that CIA, Customs, INS, Border Patrol, Military all signed off , all cc'd on stuff yet I'm told the same pat, "No records exist."

NARA has some of the story and I credit those who pushed for more boxes to be opened.

Edited November 25, 2004 by Chris Cox

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, you are right --info from FOIA files (FBI loved to keep files on people, the SACs kept busy) only as good as how complete they are.  Especially 105 files were distributed among associated agencies. 

Your's shows that  half the story reached the congressional investigators.  Of course Hoover is in here because he controlled info going  to all the key investigations, from his FBI.

Too bad we file FOIAs and expect some due process but there are some docs that slip through and reveal the unexpected.  Your files illustrate this as do mine.

My files on my father clearly show that CIA, Customs, INS, Border Patrol, Military all signed off , all cc'd on stuff yet I'm told the same pat, "No records exist."

NARA has some of the story and I credit those who pushed for more boxes to be opened.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You got it little one. Have a good Thanksgiving

[Gibson Vendettuoli]

There is one thing in Mr. Plumlee's statement that I've been able to confirm. I checked around looking for info on the Alpha 66 safe house behind Oswald's that he mentioned.

It seems it's already been confirmed separately of Mr. Plumlee's statement. Many have mentioned the house at 3126 Harlandale Avenue as a safe house where Oswald was seen with Cubans. Secret Service man Forrest Sorrels told Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers about the house, mentioning #3128, which Walthers put in his section of the Dallas Sheriff's Supplemental Report.

Two men came forward around the time of the making of the film "JFK" who claimed to know Oswald in Dallas and in New Orleans. They told researchers independently that the safe house was directly behind Oswald's rooming house. Researcher Gus Russo called the landlady (Oswald's landlady's daughter) to ask who lived in the back house (presumably in 1963). Her (paraphrased) answer: "Latins or Cubans."

Mr. Plumlee, I'm not sure about the rest, but you're right on the money about the safe house and that's brought your account up a step on the credibility scale in my eye.

G

Edited November 28, 2004 by Gibson Vendettuoli

[William Plumlee]

There is one thing in Mr. Plumlee's statement that I've been able to confirm. I checked around looking for info on the Alpha 66 safe house behind Oswald's that he mentioned.

Edited December 25, 2007 by William Plumlee

[Chris Cox]

file deleted pending research

Edited December 2, 2004 by Chris Cox

[William Plumlee]

xxx

Edited December 25, 2007 by William Plumlee

[Chris Cox]

Thanks,

so the FBI gets details they need for their files, covers the operations of other USG agencies, and the operative who provides the details gets discredited as a matter of course-

the main issue of the files, the details get buried until investigators come around in 70s with HSCA and articles cropping up about CIA and operations (Like Hinckle Turner book,etc) is that correct?

[William Plumlee]

Thanks,

Edited December 25, 2007 by William Plumlee

[Chris Cox]

[deleted until further research is completed]

Edited December 2, 2004 by Chris Cox

[Chris Cox]

can't add other docs, my PC is flaking will try later

[Alan Healy]

What did we do after the shots?

We did not go and investigate anything.  We were in shock.  We never really thought there was anything to the reports that an actual assassination would really take place. When it did we were stunned. When it happened our first concern was to get out of the plaza without being noticed.  If we had been picked up then it would have been bad for us, because it would have been on us to prove why we were there, something we could not do.  In that respect we would have been the "fall guys", and perhaps been thought of as additional assassins.  However we did think a shooter had came in from the backside of the south parking lot after we had walked through it earlier.  We knew that within seconds after the shooting this person would be gone and all evidence with him.

It was to late to do anything except slowly leave the area and not draw attention.  We smelled powder on the way out which could have drifted from the north knoll, but because of the shot that seemed to go over us and to the left of our position at the time of the shots, we felt the smell of powder was from the south knoll.

I think you can find us in the Cancellare photo.  I have said for years that about that time  10 to 20 seconds we would have been about that location by the fork tree.  At the time of the shots and the south knoll shot we would have been a little further up the knoll to the left of the forked tree (looking from the position of Cancellare.  After the shots and after a few seconds we started down the hill to the right of the sidewalk steps (as viewed from Cancellare)  At the time of the photo we would have been in the shadow of the fork tree walking toward the underpass

(note in Tim's photo count seventeen steps and move to the right half way from the tree base to the sidewalk)

I have ask for years for the photo experts to really take a hard look at this area.  I have felt that if it could be established that two people were there it would go a long way in proving that we were there for the reasons I have said. Even now that we have better equipment this is not being done for whatever reasons.

The north knoll team?  When I got back to Florida. I was advised that I should not have gone on that operation and Sergio had not been authorized to take me.  We (Sergio and I) were in deep S...T.  Shortly after that debriefing on November 25, I was arrested and extradited to Colorado to stand charges for a $50 no account check which had been dismissed the year before.  (as the record is documented in Div. 10 Denver County Court, 1962-63. The check had been paid.  It had been written by my wife of that time, in Denver It was never produced in court)  I was sentence to an "INDEFINITE term in the Colorado State Reformatory, Buna Vista, Colorado.

I was not released until after the WC had completed their investigation.  I was not allowed to have any contact with any previous operatives or team members.  For three months (December 1963 until April 1964) after I was extradited to Colorado I was held in the Denver County Jail and was not allowed to see anyone except the FBI.  I went into the State Reformatory in April 1964 as inmate #17581.  I was told by SAC Scott Warner, Denver FBI, that if I 'did not stop talking about what I thought I knew about the assassination, I would never get out'.

In answer to your question.  I have no idea what happen to the other team members, north or south.  In order to get out of jail in December of 1964 I made an agreement and that was part of my parole agreement.  I went underground and started a new life as a Plumber, not a pilot.  Then 1974 came along and Senator Church and thats another story.[/color]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tosh, thank you again!

A very interesting reply.

Just so you know, I haven't followed your story before now, I have only been interested in finding out about the north knoll.

So I apologise if I'm making you repeat yourself.

I cannnot apologise for staying focused on the north knoll however, since I am probably just as convinced a shot came from there as you are that one come from behind you that day.

Let me quote you directly from the thread where you perked my interest in your story;

1) I do not believe that there was a shooter anywhere near the north knoll; behind a fence; on a car hood; in the parking lot; behind a wall. I do not care what the "Experts" say. They have not proven their case to me beyond a resonable doubt. That goes for the South Knoll as well as the North Knoll locations.

Today we have better equipment to photo work these pictures. That technique should be applied by professional personal.., example Law enforcement or private corp. that deal with such matters. What I think. What you think. And what the public has been led to think is of no value today.

(2) I do not believe that a professional sniper team would place a shooter that close to the public with a rifle or a pistol. (within twenty five feet of people watching the motorcade and between the personal on the overpass and the kill zone.) If that WAS the case it would have been done by amatures and they would have been caught before they got away from their position.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Although I find your story presented here very believeable, these statements quoted above from that previous thread are a total contradiction to me.

I disagree with almost everything contained in them.

In fact, because you were standing directly across the plaza from the north knoll & say you didn't see anything there, makes me want to convince you your mistaken.

So please forgive me, I am not trying to distract from your story.

I'm guessing that your first paragraph had a lot to do with the subject being discussed in that thread, i.e "Gunmen in the Shadows/Photographs", so I won't read too much into it, suffice to say;

The majority of witnesses, positioned on, or adjacent to the north knoll either through their statements or reactions, point to the area behind the wall & beyond it, into the car-park, as the source of at least one shot.

Bobby Hargis. Ran immediately to the BDM position.

Lem Johns. After failing to catch the VP headed behind the wall into the car-park.

The Newmans. "The shots came from the knoll".

Mary McKinnon. "The shots came from the knoll".

Zapruder & Co. "....behind me".

Emmett Hudson. "....behind me".

Of course there are others, most noteworthy of these being SM Holland, who heard a shot from behind the fence & saw smoke drift out from under under the trees there.

These witnesses have shown me where to look & I would like to know why you seem to pay them no heed.

Your statements in the second paragraph are just opinions, which "in my opinion" are over-simplified & incorrect, I'm sorry.

IMO,

someone tried to kill JFK from behind that little wall in broad daylight.

He missed the killshot, for some reason & for some reason you & the other witnesses in the plaza that day missed his presence.

If he was using a silencer & there was someone letting off fire-crackers at the other end of the street at the same time, then that could help explain it.

What you & others are not taking into account(when dismissing a shooter in BDMs' position) is that each shooter was probably part of a group of two or three all firing at the same time.

Being spotted or even getting away was not necessarily in their own hands nor the priority.

If the first volley of shots was needed when say, the limo went behind the sign in the Zfilm, then to play his part a north knoll shooter may well of decided that the extra three metres gained from standing in front of the picket fence was more important than being spotted(especially since this team would of been convinced of their safe extraction from the plaza) & especially since this, the first volley, would of had the most thought going into it to get it right.

Please tell me what strikes you as more amateurish;

playing it safe & taking three attempts to get the kill(probably close to ten seconds)

or one man at one position taking a "small" risk to get closer to the target so they

could all get outta' there quicker(one shot-one kill).

Tosh, my only motivation here is to support the BDM=Assassin idea & to get you to shed some more light on the north knoll if you can.

I think that having a witness like yourself who believes in the conspiracy, saying that "you don't believe there was a shooter on the north knoll" is, if you'll forgive me, quite a rarity.

Respectfully,

Alan.

[Tim Carroll]

Tosh, thank you again!

I am probably just as convinced a shot came from there as you are that one come from behind you that day.

Let me quote you directly from the thread where you perked my interest in your story;

1) I do not believe that there was a shooter anywhere near the north knoll; behind a fence; on a car hood; in the parking lot; behind a wall. I do not care what the "Experts" say. They have not proven their case to me beyond a resonable doubt. That goes for the South Knoll as well as the North Knoll locations.

Today we have better equipment to photo work these pictures. That technique should be applied by professional personal.., example Law enforcement or private corp. that deal with such matters. What I think. What you think. And what the public has been led to think is of no value today.

(2) I do not believe that a professional sniper team would place a shooter that close to the public with a rifle or a pistol. (within twenty five feet of people watching the motorcade and between the personal on the overpass and the kill zone.) If that WAS the case it would have been done by amatures and they would have been caught before they got away from their position.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Although I find your story presented here very believeable, these statements quoted above from that previous thread are a total contradiction to me.

I disagree with almost everything contained in them.

In fact, because you were standing directly across the plaza from the north knoll & say you didn't see anything there, makes me want to convince you your mistaken.

So please forgive me, I am not trying to distract from your story.

IMO,

someone tried to kill JFK from behind that little wall in broad daylight.

He missed the killshot, for some reason & for some reason you & the other witnesses in the plaza that day missed his presence.

If he was using a silencer & there was someone letting off fire-crackers at the other end of the street at the same time, then that could help explain it.

What you & others are not taking into account(when dismissing a shooter in BDMs' position) is that each shooter was probably part of a group of two or three all firing at the same time.

Being spotted or even getting away was not necessarily in their own hands nor the priority.

I think that having a witness like yourself who believes in the conspiracy, saying that "you don't believe there was a shooter on the north knoll" is, if you'll forgive me, quite a rarity.

Respectfully,

Alan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

Like you, I am diametrically opposed to Tosh's assertion of there being no North Knoll shooter. However, I do not agree that the shooter would have been in BDM's position, as that location is so clearly shown in the Zapruder film. As you point out, any shooter would have been accompanied by a spotter and perhaps a breakdown person to facilitate the getaway. In such a circumstance, the support team member, whose capture would be more likely than that of the shooter, would subsequently pass a parafin test with regard to firing a rifle, as Oswald did.

BDM, IMO, was more likely a spotter keeping spectators away from the shooter's location. As I'm sure you're aware, the idea of BDM being a shooter is necessarily in conflict with adherents of the Badgeman theory. The HSCA wrongfully relied on an extremely flawed ITEK study to show that the gunman seen in plain sight in the following photos would have to have been 9' high from the ground. The primary flaw in the premise of that study is that the shooter in the photos was atop a car, when it can be seen that he is in front of the pergola.

The latter Nix frame depicts the moment when the limo had just departed the Plaza and Nix panned back toward the North Knoll. Notice the profile image, following the classic gunman posture, purported to be light and shadow.

Tim

[Alan Healy]

BDM, IMO, was more likely a spotter keeping spectators away from the shooter's location.  As I'm sure you're aware, the idea of BDM being a shooter is necessarily in conflict with adherents of the Badgeman theory.

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day.

He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face.

Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else.

A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).

As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.

For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.

Alan

[Tim Carroll]

John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day.  He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face.  Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else.  A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).

As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.

For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM  missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?

Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"

Tim

Edited December 11, 2004 by Tim Carroll