Bob Vernon and the Educational Forum

[John Simkin]

You may be interested in a posting by Bob Vernon on the JFK Research website:

Message to John Simkin

While we greatly differ in opinion on lots of things regarding the honest education of children, I must say "thank you" for something you are now involved in, perhaps unwillingly, but never the less, you are now involved.

I am referring to the post made by one, Pam Ray, on your JFK online seminar entitled "To Kill A Country".

While I have already saved the post in several formats, I would like to ask you to also save the original for I will be subpoeaning you in the criminal and civil trials of Wim Dankbarr, Pam Ray, Jim Marrs, Gary Bebe, James Files and other "John Doe" parties. You will be subpoeaned as a witness, rest assured. It may also be possible to have you issue a sworn affidavit but I will have to check that out with my legal counsel and get back to you.

Again, thank you very much for allowing Pam Ray to post for it has now made my case beyond any shadow of a doubt and I now have a whole gaggle of lawyers dancing happily around their Thanksgiving turkey.

Warm regards,

Bob Vernon

Your bully boy tactics might work in the United States but they will not influence my commitment to freedom of speech. I like you do not believe the James Files story (although unlike you I did not believe it when I saw the original evidence). However, if freedom of speech is to have any meaning at all, it is about people having the freedom to express opinions that you disagree with.

The main objective behind the JFK Online Seminars is to put together people who hold a wide variety of different views on the subject. It is an attempt to stimulate the experience of a university seminar. However, it has the added advantage of bring together people from all over the world to debate these issues (at little cost to the participants). As you know, a forum is a great place to debate ideas as it allows words to be recorded and challenged. In this sense, it can achieve a level of academic rigour that is higher than that of a real life seminar.

At one time you were a member of the International Education Forum. You were allowed to express your strange political views. However, you were constantly challenged about your view that Britain was a monarchical dictatorship. You were unable to cope with the intellectual rigours of this debate and made a public statement that you were no longer willing to contribute your views and demanded your removal as a member. I agreed to your request.

Since that date you have continued to post abusive comments and myself on JFK Lancer and this forum. This you are free to do. I believe your postings tell readers far more about yourself than they do about me. However, I would like to make it clear that I am unwilling to give in to your legal threats and even though I may disagree with them about certain issues, members such as Pamela Ray, Wim Dankbaar, Judyth Vary Baker, Jim Marrs and William Plumlee, will remain free to post their views on the Kennedy assassination.

You seem to be under the impression that this stance is going to get me into trouble with the law. I assume this is because you have taken legal advice on this matter. If that is the case, I suggest you change your lawyer. Or maybe you should spend more time receiving medical, rather than legal advice.

[Dawn Meredith]

You may be interested in a posting by Bob Vernon on the JFK Research website:

Message to John Simkin

While we greatly differ in opinion on lots of things regarding the honest education of children, I must say "thank you" for something you are now involved in, perhaps unwillingly, but never the less, you are now involved.

I am referring to the post made by one, Pam Ray, on your JFK online seminar entitled "To Kill A Country".

While I have already saved the post in several formats, I would like to ask you to also save the original for I will be subpoeaning you in the criminal and civil trials of Wim Dankbarr, Pam Ray, Jim Marrs, Gary Bebe, James Files and other "John Doe" parties. You will be subpoeaned as a witness, rest assured. It may also be possible to have you issue a sworn affidavit but I will have to check that out with my legal counsel and get back to you.

Again, thank you very much for allowing Pam Ray to post for it has now made my case beyond any shadow of a doubt and I now have a whole gaggle of lawyers dancing happily around their Thanksgiving turkey.

Warm regards,

Bob Vernon

Your bully boy tactics might work in the United States but they will not influence my commitment to freedom of speech. I like you do not believe the James Files story (although unlike you I did not believe it when I saw the original evidence). However, if freedom of speech is to have any meaning at all, it is about people having the freedom to express opinions that you disagree with.

The main objective behind the JFK Online Seminars is to put together people who hold a wide variety of different views on the subject. It is an attempt to stimulate the experience of a university seminar. However, it has the added advantage of bring together people from all over the world to debate these issues (at little cost to the participants). As you know, a forum is a great place to debate ideas as it allows words to be recorded and challenged. In this sense, it can achieve a level of academic rigour that is higher than that of a real life seminar.

At one time you were a member of the International Education Forum. You were allowed to express your strange political views. However, you were constantly challenged about your view that Britain was a monarchical dictatorship. You were unable to cope with the intellectual rigours of this debate and made a public statement that you were no longer willing to contribute your views and demanded your removal as a member. I agreed to your request.

Since that date you have continued to post abusive comments and myself on JFK Lancer and this forum. This you are free to do. I believe your postings tell readers far more about yourself than they do about me. However, I would like to make it clear that I am unwilling to give in to your legal threats and even though I may disagree with them about certain issues, members such as Pamela Ray, Wim Dankbaar, Judyth Vary Baker, Jim Marrs and William Plumlee, will remain free to post their views on the Kennedy assassination.

You seem to be under the impression that this stance is going to get me into trouble with the law. I assume this is because you have taken legal advice on this matter. If that is the case, I suggest you change your lawyer. Or maybe you should spend more time receiving medical, rather than legal advice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_____________

Great response John!!!

Dawn

[Nic Martin]

Excellent response.

[Shanet Clark]

Ugly harassment.

Gross intimidation.

Woeful ignorance.

Shanet

Excellent response.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited November 25, 2004 by Shanet Clark

[Tim Gratz]

Excellent response.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ditto, John!

[Wim Dankbaar]

This sums it up:

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: <dank@xs4all.nl>

Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 2:49 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: FYI

Wim:

Even though I dont know Bob Vernon personally I would guess that he is going "off his rocker". He is losing his mind.

I am happy to see that you have the JFK/James Files property which you rightfully purchased. I am also happy to see Bob Vernon losing his mind over this fact.

Thanks Wim and take care.

[Pamela Ray]

This sums it up:

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: <dank@xs4all.nl>

Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 2:49 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: FYI

Wim:

Even though I dont know Bob Vernon personally I would guess that he is going "off his rocker". He is losing his mind.

I am happy to see that you have the JFK/James Files property which you rightfully purchased. I am also happy to see Bob Vernon losing his mind over this fact.

Thanks Wim and take care.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wim,

I truly thank you for the help you have extended to me. I plan on honoring our book deal when To Kill a Country is finally put out to the public.

Like I have always said, we agree on pretty much everything except the...FBI. Let's please not get into it.

Jimmy isn't mad at you for having his property that Vernon took from him and never returned. Thank you for respecting the fact he doesn't want to get more time and would like to spend a little time on earth with me.

Pam

Here is a post I put on the To Kill a Country thread for Nancy and Bob:

Nancy,

Take a deep breath and settle down. I'll be back in a minute.

Tosh and Richard,

I won't go away that easy.

Nancy,

For quite a while I have been meaning to let you know what is really going on. James Files has been playing head games with you to play head games with Bob Vernon.

I think it has been quite successful. I'm sorry I didn't tell you sooner.

Please forgive me.

Can you please pass on a message to Mr. Vernon? Please tell Bob to give it up. The Justice Department and the FBI are all part of the problem – not the solution. (Tosh, you should know that by now)

Pam

[William Plumlee]

This sums it up:

----- Original Message -----

"...... The Justice Department and the FBI are all part of the problem – not the solution. (Tosh, you should know that by now).....".

Pam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a lot more respect for the FBI, now that J Edgar Hoover is gone. There are damn good people, men and women, working within the FBI now days and that goes for the CIA also.

Of course everyone in jail is innocent and its law enforcement's fault they are there.

[Wim Dankbaar]

I have a lot more respect for the FBI, now that J Edgar Hoover is gone. There are damn good people, men and women, working within the FBI now days and that goes for the CIA also.

----------------------

AMEN to that.

But, in all fairness, there is good and bad people in every big organization. Pam tends to see things black and white.

Wim

[Pamela Ray]

This sums it up:

----- Original Message -----

"...... The Justice Department and the FBI are all part of the problem – not the solution. (Tosh, you should know that by now).....".

Pam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a lot more respect for the FBI, now that J Edgar Hoover is gone. There are damn good people, men and women, working within the FBI now days and that goes for the CIA also.

Of course everyone in jail is innocent and its law enforcement's fault they are there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tosh,

I never said or implied

"Of course everyone in jail is innocent and its law enforcement's fault they are there." I'm really glad for honest law enforcement and it is a rare and beautiful thing.

Since you guys are here and not responding to private email I guess I'll ask my questions and post my observations here.

Tosh when you spoke on record for government investigator Rodney Stich this is what you told him:

"The FBI report stated that 'it was his desire to establish his credibility concerning his past activities [working for government agencies and] in establishing contact with the FBI in Arizona in the event he should ever become involved in border-line activities.’ The report stated Plumlee agreed to provide a written report to the Phoenix FBI office. The report stated Plumlee was also flying for Regina Airlines and with Riddle Airlines.

It was obvious for the FBI’s own reports that they knew of the drug trafficking into the United States by the CIA and the military, and that this includes knowledge of the FBI director.” So Tosh it really does not matter who the current or past FBI director is. Same goes for the CIA and DEA. The beat goes on. I respectfully submit you are too smart to play dumb.

I was asking Wim in an email what was up with you. Here is what I said:

Wim,

I wasn't the one who posted the whole thing. I emailed it first to see if the administrator John Simkin was interested in any of it. I asked him in an email if it was too much. He did not privately answer me and put it all out there with the title To Kill a Country: The James Files Story. I would have called it The Story Behind Trying to Publish To Kill A Country.

What's with Tosh's attitude? I think it is called FEAR and NOT WANTING TO GO TO PRISON if he starts flapping off about Jimmy. If Barry Seal was still alive and in prison, Tosh would act this way towards him too. I don't want to aggravate Tosh because of his past.

"He was sent to the Miami area where he became involved in covert operations in Cuba, the Caribbean and Central America. Most of this time he flew guns and ammunition for various factions in half a dozen countries. Plumlee said he was driven by the adventure and paychecks. He explained that in his covert operations he had to keep other federal agencies form knowing about the clandestine and usually illegal operations."

Does he have many things the government could retaliate against him with? You better believe it. Does he think it is worth validating me and what Jimmy is saying? I don't think so. He knows first hand how these people are and if you threaten them by exposure in a credible way (like saying "Yep Jimmy did the headshot on Kennedy. Roselli told me later he chickened out and Jimmy did the shooting.") ...it's hasta la vista baby.

"Kennedy is as dead as that crabmeat! You gonna line up with a dead man? Governments gonna dance all over your head Jimbo, and when they do it's buh bye Dean-o..." Remember how that works? Wim this isn't an Oliver Stone movie and we are meddling with the powers of darkness. Tosh a Christian? I seriously doubt it but I hope so. I've never shot a bird with a B-B gun let alone participated in KILLING COUNTRIES. He has a lot of nerve questioning my motives to tell Jimmy's story.

"Plumlee described the operation known as Operation Grasshopper, which was a top secret military operation, and involved such notable drug traffickers as Barry Seal. He described the protection of the government's involvement in drug trafficking by other government agencies, including the Mexican-American Special Operations Group (AMSOG) whose function was to block drug trafficking. He said that Barry Seal was an operative in this group in its early days.

Plumlee described the brutal murder of a former Air America pilot in Quedo Loco Lobo, near Oaxaca in Southwestern Mexico by a Mexican named Pepe Suequez. Plumlee described how the informant described the killing of the American pilot, Maurice Louis Gonzales, was horribly mutilated and left to die in a Mexican prison for informing American authorities of what had happened."

Not nice guys eh? Tosh knows the game well. Jimmy and I are not worth it to him and I understand why. Same for Zack. It isn't worth losing the FBI pension and everything by being a real whistle blower. Jimmy says I give Zack too much credit for being smart. He might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but he surly isn't the dullest. What is the story on Zack's happy handshake occasion with GHWB? Does Kenny know yet that you and Bob were the source of FBI problems and not me? It would be nice to have some help from his friends that think I'm an FBI agent.

Pam

----- Original Message -----

From: Wim Dankbaar

To: Pam

Cc: Daniel Marvin

Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 2:41 AM

Subject: What was your goal

in posting that long narrative? What were you trying to achieve?

W

[William Plumlee]

----- Original Message -----

"...Tosh when you spoke on record for government investigator Rodney Stich this is what you told him:

"The FBI report stated that 'it was his desire to establish his credibility concerning his past activities [working for government agencies and] in establishing contact with the FBI in Arizona in the event he should ever become involved in border-line activities.’ The report stated Plumlee agreed to provide a written report to the Phoenix FBI office. The report stated Plumlee was also flying for Regina Airlines and with Riddle Airlines.

It was obvious for the FBI’s own reports that they knew of the drug trafficking into the United States by the CIA and the military, and that this includes knowledge of the FBI director.” So Tosh it really does not matter who the current or past FBI director is. Same goes for the CIA and DEA. The beat goes on. I respectfully submit you are too smart to play dumb.

"...What's with Tosh's attitude? I think it is called FEAR and NOT WANTING TO GO TO PRISON if he starts flapping off about Jimmy. If Barry Seal was still alive and in prison, Tosh would act this way towards him too. I don't want to aggravate Tosh because of his past.

"He was sent to the Miami area where he became involved in covert operations in Cuba, the Caribbean and Central America. Most of this time he flew guns and ammunition for various factions in half a dozen countries. Plumlee said he was driven by the adventure and paychecks. He explained that in his covert operations he had to keep other federal agencies form knowing about the clandestine and usually illegal operations."

"Plumlee described the operation known as Operation Grasshopper, which was a top secret military operation, and involved such notable drug traffickers as Barry Seal. He described the protection of the government's involvement in drug trafficking by other government agencies, including the Mexican-American Special Operations Group (AMSOG) whose function was to block drug trafficking. He said that Barry Seal was an operative in this group in its early days.

Plumlee described the brutal murder of a former Air America pilot in Quedo Loco Lobo, near Oaxaca in Southwestern Mexico by a Mexican named Pepe Suequez. Plumlee described how the informant described the killing of the American pilot, Maurice Louis Gonzales, was horribly mutilated and left to die in a Mexican prison for informing American authorities of what had happened."

Not nice guys eh? Tosh knows the game well. Jimmy and I are not worth it to him and I understand why. Same for Zack. It isn't worth losing the FBI pension and everything by being a real whistle blower. Jimmy says I give Zack too much credit for being smart. He might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but he surly isn't the dullest. What is the story on Zack's happy handshake occasion with GHWB? Does Kenny know yet that you and Bob were the source of FBI problems and not me? It would be nice to have some help from his friends that think I'm an FBI agent.

Pam

Little lady you got your facts wrong again... the quote you mention about the FBI and my contacting them was in 1976, concerning matters of 1959-63 and had nothing to do with drugs of the 1970 or 80's. I was asked to contack the FBI in 1976, by senator Berry Goldwater's security advisor in reference to John Roseli and my safety, because of what we did in the sixties. I flew for Riddle and Regina in the late fifties and early sixties, not in the 70's and 80's.

Operation Grasshooper was an UC operation and 23 Customs, CIA, and DEA, personal were found to be on the cartel's payoff... not the whole Customs, CIA, and DEA.. Its time to get your facts together before you lead a new generation astray with false research. I have said many times that the CIA personal in this operation were involved with the drug running for profit... They were caught and dealt with by their own, which is still classified... and that was also not a fun sight. It was another 'Bloody Mess'. They repented of their deeds before they saw their maker. Others should have followed but they went to jail and became born again. Some are out now and back to their old haunts and that is not going to Church like they did while in lock up.

You are mixing apples and oranges and trying to create strawberries. It will not work with me. I see you and Files as Fraud. If you are not part of that, then you have been Con'ed. In my book there is no other way to say it. Do you want me to see Files face to face? I will be glad to do that. I have some very spacific questions to ask him.. No more, he said, they said.., I said BS.., just Facts... specific statements.

What is Files military Service Number? What was his rank? What was his name? Thats; Name; Rank: and Serial Number. Every Vet knows that. What year? For some reason you are short of facts and long on wind... What are the names of the operations that J Files work with? Where were they located? north, south, east, or west? What country? Were they in the jungles? on the mountain tops.., on the beaches? Where? I need specifics from you and him. Not smokey things which have been written about in third rate books and articles.

I am sorry if this offends you. I am not afraid of anything. I fly with the banner of Christ and I am alive.., for that I am thankful. I've paid my dues in that crazy world of dark shadows and I resent 'wanta bees' intruding into my world, to make a buck off dead people and write half assed books about things they no nothing about, hiding under the sheet of truth for profit.

Edited November 26, 2004 by William Plumlee

[Pamela Ray]

Tosh,

First of all I want to nominate Wim Dankbaar for the Nobel Peace Prize. I don't know who is in charge of that but I want to be serious and let you know I'm sorry for going off on you and your past. I'm really happy you are a Christian and I mean that with all my heart. This is a very tricky place to know whom your real friends and enemies are. I don't think you are an enemy of the truth and it would be good if you and Jimmy had a man-to-man talk. You need to talk to Wim. He has met me and has heard my heart. He can tell you I doing all this for the right reasons. He called me and we had a good talk today.

Pam

[William Plumlee]

Tosh,

First of all I want to nominate Wim Dankbaar for the Nobel Peace Prize.  I don't know who is in charge of that but I want to be serious and let you know I'm sorry for going off on you and your past. I'm really happy you are a Christian and I mean that with all my heart. This is a very tricky place to know whom your real friends and enemies are.  I don't think you are an enemy of the truth and it would be good if you and Jimmy had a man-to-man talk.  You need to talk to Wim.  He has met me and has heard my heart.  He can tell you I doing all this for the right reasons.  He called me and we had a good talk today. 

Pam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem. But if you have to say things, then get it right. Have Files send me his service number for starters. Then you set up a face to face meeting with him and be sure and tell him the reasons I am coming to see him. It is not to challenge him. Its to ask him some very spacific questions which require some very spacific answers. If he is true, then I will know it and he will know it. Its that simple. I have not intended to offend you. If he is not who he says, then he has offended you and violated your trust and that would be between you and him. Be up front with him and let him know my feelings at this point. Until this can be arranged have him give you his service number and the dates of service. That would be a good start. The best to you.

[Pamela Ray]

No problem. But if you have to say things, then get it right. Have Files send me his service number for starters. Then you set up a face to face meeting with him and be sure and tell him the reasons I am coming to see him. It is not to challenge him. Its to ask him some very spacific questions which require some very spacific answers. If he is true, then I will know it and he will know it. Its that simple. I have not intended to offend you. If he is not who he says, then he has offended you and violated your trust and that would be between you and him. Be up front with him and let him know my feelings at this point. Until this can be arranged have him give you his service number and the dates of service. That would be a good start. The best to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you Tosh. No problem either and no offense. Jimmy has never spoken badly of you.

If he has violated my trust, believe me I would love to be the first person to hear about it. This isn’t fun loving James Files. He can tell you, if he agrees to see you, what it is really like for me. Nobody would envy me if they knew the burden God has placed on my heart for humanity. Jimmy saw this in me and that is why he asked me to write a book with him. My style is informal but I try to tell it like it is so the average lied to propagandized person can get it. Wim thinks I try and tell too much and I just know time is running out.

I’ll see if I can get all the specifics from him…I’ll double check my records because I probably have it or it is being sent to me from the publisher. I will be up front with him like I always am and he will give me an honest answer if he wants the journey to take this course.

I did want to clear up the misunderstanding about what I posted earlier and what point I was trying to make. I have FBI issues to resolve in my life and when I vent anger towards the wickedness in the government I go off pretty hard on them. There are lots of bad guys but the latest bad guys alienated Jimmy's friends from us.

You said: Little lady you got your facts wrong again... the quote you mention about the FBI and my contacting them was in 1976, concerning matters of 1959-63 and had nothing to do with drugs of the 1970 or 80's. I was asked to contack the FBI in 1976, by senator Berry Goldwater's security advisor in reference to John Roseli and my safety, because of what we did in the sixties. I flew for Riddle and Regina in the late fifties and early sixties, not in the 70's and 80's.

Tosh, I was making the point about the government in general not about a specific time period. You probably have the book, Defrauding America: Encyclopedia of Secret Operations by the CIA, DEA and Other Covert Agencies, Written by Rodney Stich former Government Investigator Assisted By CIA & other Spook Whistleblowers. 1998 Third Explosive Edition.

The following is from information on page 446 in a section that is all about you from page 436 through 447. I know Rodney’s style of writing skips around and I took the liberty as well to make a general point.

"The FBI report stated that 'it was his desire to establish his credibility concerning his past activities [working for government agencies and] in establishing contact with the FBI in Arizona in the event he should ever become involved in border-line activities.’ The report stated Plumlee agreed to provide a written report to the Phoenix FBI office. The report stated Plumlee was also flying for Regina Airlines and with Riddle Airlines.

It was obvious for the FBI’s own reports that they knew of the drug trafficking into the United States by the CIA and the military, and that this includes knowledge of the FBI director.”

Just below the end of the last part of that paragraph on page 446, the subtitle is ROUTINE OVERTHROWING OF GOVERNMENTS.

Following on page 447, Mr. Stich is summarizing what you told him after talking in general terms again about the US overthrowing governments.

"Plumlee described the operation known as Operation Grasshopper, which was a top secret military operation, and involved such notable drug traffickers as Barry Seal. He described the protection of the government's involvement in drug trafficking by other government agencies, including the Mexican-American Special Operations Group (AMSOG) whose function was to block drug trafficking. He said that Barry Seal was an operative in this group in its early days.

Plumlee described the brutal murder of a former Air America pilot in Quedo Loco Lobo, near Oaxaca in Southwestern Mexico by a Mexican named Pepe Suequez. Plumlee described how the informant described the killing of the American pilot, Maurice Louis Gonzales, was horribly mutilated and left to die in a Mexican prison for informing American authorities of what had happened."

Again I was just making a point about how terrible this all is in general. To Kill A Country was Jimmy's title not mine. Unless we talk about this mess it just keeps happening. I try and be as accurate as possible. I’m trying to settle down about the urgency of the problems. I wish I did not care so much about people because I care to the point of it being a fault. Dead is dead and you can’t tell dead people the truth.

Thank you for being gracious with me.

Aloha,

Pam

[Nancy Eldreth]

When seening the letters that Files wrote it is you that is going to have some problems Pam.

Head games? What makes you think he hasn't done head games with you?

Now that is a good question.

Files is respectful to the Mafia. He respects that before anything else.

It is good for me to see that Tosh and Wim did write the same thing to you that was written by me on the seminar forums.

I didn't see this yet to know that.

Only I did go a bit more involved, in my answer to you.

I have wrtten to Files for his numbers several weeks ago. I do hope in a day or two to get the answers to those questions. I don't care who he gives the answers to just so long as he does answer someone on this and not avoid it by both of us.

Time will tell.

Edited November 27, 2004 by Nancy Eldreth