Tom Dunkin

[Tim Gratz]

This thread paints a context, a moment in time; circa one month before Dallas, the real-life cinema verite image that historians now know about these characters. It was a day at the office, for the Attorney General and the FBI Director to twist the arms of the Senate leadership over the Ellen Rometsh.  Meanwhile Henry Cabot Lodge is backing the coup d'etat on the ground in Saigon.  Thus the power of the Chief of Mission. The news of Diem's capture and murder surely anchors the history of November 1963. The organized crime figures that were forming the habitus of the post-war cultures in the ascendency. Brinksmanship.

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Yes, it was quite a time. I'm not sure if I've commented here but in researching our JFK stories for the Key West Citizen, we learned that on the last Saturday of his life JFK traveled to Cape Canaveral with his good friend Sen. George Smathers, where they met Dr. Werner von Braun and inspected the rocket they thought would take man to the moon. JFK also watched the launch of a Polaris missile. There are some great photos of these events. Go to the Corbis web-site amd plug in Werner von Braun; and also plug in Kennedy together with Cape Canaveral and you should get to the photos if you want to look at them.

President Kennedy at Cape Caniveral was certainly a fitting way for President Kennedy to spend his last Saturday.

In this thread I expressed my opinion that JFK following the advice of Rep Henry Cabot Lodge over that of his brother with respect to replacing Diem was one of his worst mistakes. IMO, the 1969 lunar landing was probably his greatest accomplishment. He'd wanted it to occur in late 1968, near the end of his second term. What a tragedy that the assassins' bullets prevented him from seeing the fruition of his dream. (Placement of the apostrophe was deliberate, of course.)

Edited December 16, 2004 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Carroll]

Trivia question:  Who wrote the foreward to Jack Kennedy's book Why England Slept?

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If we're playing 20 questions, it was either Henry Luce or Arthur Krock. You posted your response to quickly to let me finish my editing. The point of which would again miss my point about timeframes, since you're referring to 1940.

By the way, do you like the way Posner co-opted the title of Kennedy's book for his 9/11 tome?

Tim

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NOPE!!

Another trivia I picked up in my reading today up was that the boat named after Jack's oldest brother was used in the Cuban missile crisis.

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Tim Gratz:

Obviously, the destroyer was the Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr.; and the only reason I offered both Krock and Luce as possible writers of the forward of Why England Slept, given that it was also obvious that you were fishing for Luce, is that Krock is widely recognized to have ghost-written the cleaned-up version of JFK's thesis for publication. Why are we playing this game, and why would you say "NOPE!!" to my correct answer?

Tim Carroll

[Tim Gratz]

Trivia question:  Who wrote the foreward to Jack Kennedy's book Why England Slept?

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If we're playing 20 questions, it was either Henry Luce or Arthur Krock. You posted your response to quickly to let me finish my editing. The point of which would again miss my point about timeframes, since you're referring to 1940.

By the way, do you like the way Posner co-opted the title of Kennedy's book for his 9/11 tome?

Tim

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NOPE!!

Another trivia I picked up in my reading today up was that the boat named after Jack's oldest brother was used in the Cuban missile crisis.

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Tim Gratz:

Obviously, the destroyer was the Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr.; and the only reason I offered both Krock and Luce as possible writers of the forward of Why England Slept, given that it was also obvious that you were fishing for Luce, is that Krock is widely recognized to have ghost-written the cleaned-up version of JFK's thesis for publication. Why are we playing this game, and why would you say "NOPE!!" to my correct answer?

Tim Carroll

NO IDEA WHY THIS IS IN BLUE!! OH, WELL!!

Tim, here we go again to silly misundersatandings, Sorry I was not clear here: My "nope" was to your question how I liked Posner "appropriating" the title of Kennedy's book for his book on 9/11. Nope, I did not like it! As you know, JFK titled his book after Churchill's While England Slept, but he had Churchill's consent to do so. And you are right, of course, about Krock.

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Edited December 16, 2004 by Tim Gratz

[Shanet Clark]

Of course.

I am listening to the audiotape series that has the 1960 Debate, Kennedy's inauguration speech, Carl Sandburg on Lincoln and Adlai Stevenson's Eulogy of John F. Kennedy. Stirring stuff, really makes you feel proud to fight for his legacy, to oppose and expose what we can about his killers, to be his friends and pals around the round table, even though he is gone. I think he was a martyr to the cause of peace and straight shooting, and his murder takes you down into the world of hatred, and falseness, and lying violent people using power for powers own sake, like evil lords in the middle-earth. John Kennedy was a Galahad compared to the worm-tongues who survived and replaced him ...

[Tim Carroll]

I think he was a martyr to the cause of peace and straight shooting, and his murder takes  you down into the world of hatred, and falseness, and lying violent people using power for powers own sake, like evil lords in the middle-earth.  John Kennedy was a Galahad compared to the worm-tongues who survived and replaced him ...

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Shanet:

You haven't been listening enough to Tim Gratz interpretation of history. As for "evil lords in the middle-earth," would that be like the Lemurians living in Mt. Shasta, where I was married on 7/7/77? Just joshing.

Tim Carroll (with last name since I wouldn't want anyone to ever mistake my posts for Tim Gratz's).

[Shanet Clark]

I think he was a martyr to the cause of peace and straight shooting, and his murder takes  you down into the world of hatred, and falseness, and lying violent people using power for powers own sake, like evil lords in the middle-earth.  John Kennedy was a Galahad compared to the worm-tongues who survived and replaced him ...

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Shanet:

You haven't been listening enough to Tim Gratz interpretation of history. As for "evil lords in the middle-earth," would that be like the Lemurians living in Mt. Shasta, where I was married on 7/7/77? Just joshing.

Tim Carroll (with last name since I wouldn't want anyone to ever mistake my posts for Tim Gratz's).

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Well, you know the Lemurians of mount shasta are like the orcs of Sauron and Saruman (Christopher Lee). The bad guys.

[Tim Carroll]

Stirring stuff, really makes you feel proud to fight for his legacy, to oppose and expose what we can about his killers, to be his friends and pals around the round table, even though he is gone.

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Is that the Camelot or Algonquin round table?

[Tim Carroll]

Another trivia I picked up in my reading today up was that the boat named after Jack's oldest brother was used in the Cuban missile crisis.

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I have known the answer to this silly "trivia" question for 40 years; where were you? I have lived this history you're playing games with.

Edited December 16, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Tim Gratz]

I have posted elsewhere on the Diem assassination, and the resultant destabilization.  Suffice it to say that Nixon wouldn't have needed to give E. Howard Hunt a White House office and exacto knife to rewrite the history of that affair to blame Kennedy if the truth was sufficiently damning.  Diem and Nhu were negotiating with Ho, which was to JFK's favor, given the hope that the Vietnamese leadership could be set up to ask us to leave.  It was classic Kennedy cleverness.

Tim Carroll

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I think I have now made the point that the ultimate responsibility for the coup that toppled Diem and destabilized Vietnam (the effects of which we apparently agree on) was JFK's. His administration sent a cable to Vietnam on August 24, 1963 authorizing or supporting the removal of Diem. He had two months to reverse that cable and did not do so.

In your Post #40, you stated that I omitted the part of your post that "by all accounts JFK was appalled by the fate of the Nhus" by which I assume you are refering to the murder of Diem and his brother. JFK should not have been surpised that the coup turned violent but the murders are NOT the point. The point is simply that a stable government was removed in the middle of a war situaton with deleterious long-term consequences. A tragic decision.

But, I would hope we would agree, the culpability, or lack thereof, of JFK in the Diem coup is of no relevance to who killed him so the topic does not merit further discussion in the assassination forum.

[Shanet Clark]

Diem is important for a number of reasons. His demise was part of the backdrop of 11/63, I've said that. It set up, Big Minh and Marshal Ky and a long string of struggling regimes, but Diem's was just as bad, and weak. The death of Diem, according to Tim Gratz was signed off on for the US by McGeorge Ball. Now you have conflated McGeorge Bundy with George Ball, but Diem was overthrown by militants in a junta with the cables and the Americans in it up to their eyeballs. Still the connection to Dallas is this National Security Advisor who can order heads of state sanctioned and, on the night of November 21/22, alter Kennedy's de-escalation in Vietnam to an escalation....incapacity, military industrial complex, Kennedy's right wing militant enemies, some in high places, some witting before, many more witting in the cover-up....Diem was dead. The stakes were raised.

In the context of Tim Carrolls onrunning debate on Cuba and the WBOPThing, Diem is part of Charles Colson's Dirty Tricks laboratory for Nixon. Howard Hunt and Charles COlson actively forged State Department 1963 memoranda and telegrams to place Diem's murder directly on Kennedy. So Diem is part of the thread.

Edited December 16, 2004 by Shanet Clark

[Tim Carroll]

In the context of Tim Carroll's onrunning debate on Cuba and the WBOPThing, Diem is part of Charles Colson's Dirty Tricks laboratory for Nixon. Howard Hunt and Charles Colson actively forged State Department 1963 memoranda and telegrams to place Diem's murder directly on Kennedy. So Diem is part of the thread.

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Shanet:

Tim Gratz, who proclaims and simultaneously disclaims the relevance of his own Segretti dirty tricks involvment, refuses to share on that seminar ("WBOPThing") what he knows about that activity, on the basis that it doesn't pertain thereto. Remarkably convenient dislogic. So instead we're discussing it here, on this "Hall" thread.

Tim Carroll

Edited December 16, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Tim Carroll]

I have posted elsewhere on the Diem assassination, and the resultant destabilization.  Suffice it to say that Nixon wouldn't have needed to give E. Howard Hunt a White House office and exacto knife to rewrite the history of that affair to blame Kennedy if the truth was sufficiently damning.  Diem and Nhu were negotiating with Ho, which was to JFK's favor, given the hope that the Vietnamese leadership could be set up to ask us to leave.  It was classic Kennedy cleverness.

Tim Carroll

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In your Post #40, you stated that I omitted the part of your post that "by all accounts JFK was appalled by the fate of the Nhus" by which I assume you are refering to the murder of Diem and his brother. JFK should not have been surpised that the coup turned violent but the murders are NOT the point. The point is simply that a stable government was removed in the middle of a war situaton with deleterious long-term consequences. A tragic decision.

But, I would hope we would agree, the culpability, or lack thereof, of JFK in the Diem coup is of no relevance to who killed him so the topic does not merit further discussion in the assassination forum.

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Tim Gratz:

Your hopes are dashed! We do not agree. Your history is lacking and the topic merits plenty of further discussion, as I interpret that at least Jim Root would agree. I again suggest that you incorporate the word "interpretation" into your lexicon, and lose the presumptive dismissiveness of those who disagree with you. I believe that it is you who cannot leave partisan history revisionism aside.

From Beschloss, The Crisis Years, pgs 652-653:

"Ngo Dinh Nhu warned South Vietnamese generals in August that the Limited Test Ban might foretell wholesale American 'appeasement' of communism and that Saigon must be ready to stand alone. Diem declared martial law. Nhu's shock troops raided pagodas in five cities and arrested 1,400 Buddhist monks and nuns. Harriman concluded that the U.S. could no longer support the Diem-Nhu govt. On Saturday, August 24, he and Roger Hilsman...drafted a cable...signed by George Ball authorizing Lodge in Saigon to set the wheels in motion for a coup. The message informed the new envoy that the 'U.S. government cannot tolerate a situation in which power lies in Nhu's hands.' If Diem refused to remove him and redress the Buddhist problem, 'we must face the possibility that Diem himself cannot be preserved.' Lodge was asked to carry this message to 'key military leaders' and also to 'make detailed plans as to how we might bring about Diem's replacement should this become necessary.'

Harriman and Hilsman wanted to send the message immediately to prevent Nhu from strengthening his position. Rusk, McNamara, McCone, and Bundy were all out of town....

On Monday morning at the White House, Kennedy was astonished when McNamara, McCone, and Taylor all loudly objected to the sending of the cable. Taylor charged that an 'anti-Diem group centered in State' had exploited the absence of principal officials to send out a message that would otherwise have never been approved. They did not receommend that the President embarrass himself by revoking the cable. Forrestal offered to resign and take the blame. Kennedy snapped, 'You're not worth firing....' Robert Kennedy noted that after what he called 'that famous weekend,' Harriman seemed to age ten years.

Kennedy later told Charles Bartlett, 'My God, my government's coming apart!' Robert Kennedy recalled that week as 'the only time, really, in three years that the government was broken in two in a disturbing way.' He later said, 'Diem was corrupt and a bad leader...but we inherited him.' He thought it bad policy to 'replace somebody we don't like with somebody we do because it would just make every other country as can be that we were running coups in and out.'

General Taylor had sent a cable to Saigon saying that 'authorities are now having second thoughts' about Diem. This infuriated the President, who did not wish to appear as if he was waffling. Lodge replied, 'We are launched on a course from which there is no respectable turning back: the overthrow of the Diem government....' Kennedy cabled Lodge, 'I know that failure is more destructive that an appearance of indecision.... When we go, we must go to win, but it will be better to change our minds than fail.'"

In this we see that Taylor and Lansdale, along with Nixon's V.P. candidate and former JFK senatorial opponent Henry Cabot Lodge, were of a single mind with regard to support for Diem. In October, JFK issued the order for withdrawal of U.S. troops. The policy was due for overall review the weekend of November 23-24, but by then Diem and Nhu had been murdered and Kennedy's body (supposedly) was lying in state in the East Room of the White House. By November 26, NSAM 273 reversed JFK's policy on Vietnam.

Tim Carroll

Edited December 16, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Tim Gratz]

I have posted elsewhere on the Diem assassination, and the resultant destabilization.  Suffice it to say that Nixon wouldn't have needed to give E. Howard Hunt a White House office and exacto knife to rewrite the history of that affair to blame Kennedy if the truth was sufficiently damning.  Diem and Nhu were negotiating with Ho, which was to JFK's favor, given the hope that the Vietnamese leadership could be set up to ask us to leave.  It was classic Kennedy cleverness.

Tim Carroll

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In your Post #40, you stated that I omitted the part of your post that "by all accounts JFK was appalled by the fate of the Nhus" by which I assume you are refering to the murder of Diem and his brother. JFK should not have been surpised that the coup turned violent but the murders are NOT the point. The point is simply that a stable government was removed in the middle of a war situaton with deleterious long-term consequences. A tragic decision.

But, I would hope we would agree, the culpability, or lack thereof, of JFK in the Diem coup is of no relevance to who killed him so the topic does not merit further discussion in the assassination forum.

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Tim Gratz:

Your hopes are dashed! We do not agree. Your history is lacking and the topic merits plenty of further discussion, as I interpret that at least Jim Root would agree. I again suggest that you incorporate the word "interpretation" into your lexicon, and lose the presumptive dismissiveness of those who disagree with you. I believe that it is you who cannot leave partisan history revisionism aside.

Tim

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Tim, I chose to disregard your personal remarks. For the purpose of advancing the debate, however, please explain how the coup (and murder) of Diem has any relevance to the investigation of who killed Kennedy. Unless you accept the premise that the Diem or Nhu family retailiated against JFK, I don't see any nexus here. So I'd appreciate your thoughts on the connection (if any) between the Diem coup and the Kennedy assassination. I guess one could argue that the military who argued against the Diem coup were so upset by it that they decided to kill Kennedy. But I don't want to try to "guess" why you believe there is a connection or relationship between the events.

[Tim Carroll]

For the purpose of advancing the debate, however, please explain how the coup (and murder) of Diem has any relevance to the investigation of who killed Kennedy....  So I'd appreciate your thoughts on the connection (if any) between the Diem coup and the Kennedy assassination.  I guess one could argue that the military who argued against the Diem coup were so upset by it that they decided to kill Kennedy.  But I don't want to try to "guess" why you believe there is a connection or relationship between the events.

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Tim Gratz, Segretti's lapdog:

From Beschloss, The Crisis Years, pgs 652-653:

"Ngo Dinh Nhu warned South Vietnamese generals in August that the Limited Test Ban might foretell wholesale American 'appeasement' of communism and that Saigon must be ready to stand alone.... On Monday morning at the White House, Kennedy was astonished when McNamara, McCone, and Taylor all loudly objected to the sending of the cable. Taylor charged that an 'anti-Diem group centered in State' had exploited the absence of principal officials to send out a message that would otherwise have never been approved.... Robert Kennedy noted that after what he called 'that famous weekend,' Harriman seemed to age ten years.

Kennedy later told Charles Bartlett, 'My God, my government's coming apart!' Robert Kennedy recalled that week as 'the only time, really, in three years that the government was broken in two in a disturbing way.' He later said, 'Diem was corrupt and a bad leader...but we inherited him.' He thought it bad policy to 'replace somebody we don't like with somebody we do because it would just make every other country as can be that we were running coups in and out.'

As I have stated almost ad nauseum, Nixon wouldn't have needed to give E. Howard Hunt a White House office and exacto knife to rewrite the history of that affair to blame Kennedy if the truth was sufficiently damning. Diem and Nhu were negotiating with Ho, which was to JFK's favor, given the hope that the Vietnamese leadership could be set up to ask us to leave. It was classic Kennedy cleverness.

As Shanet said: "In the context of Tim Carroll's onrunning debate on Cuba and the WBOPThing, Diem is part of Charles Colson's Dirty Tricks laboratory for Nixon [as supposedly was Tim Gratz]. Howard Hunt and Charles Colson actively forged State Department 1963 memoranda and telegrams to place Diem's murder directly on Kennedy. So Diem is part of the thread."

Leave out the pompous presumptuousness of your arguments and I won't have to continue to use such personal characterizations. How can you ignore the historical fact that LBJ is on record as asserting a connection between the JFK and Diem assassinations? If you have something to say, why do it on a Loran Eugene Hall thread? Why not contribute to my seminar?

Tim Carroll

Edited December 16, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Tim Gratz]

For the purpose of advancing the debate, however, please explain how the coup (and murder) of Diem has any relevance to the investigation of who killed Kennedy....  So I'd appreciate your thoughts on the connection (if any) between the Diem coup and the Kennedy assassination.  I guess one could argue that the military who argued against the Diem coup were so upset by it that they decided to kill Kennedy.  But I don't want to try to "guess" why you believe there is a connection or relationship between the events.

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Tim Gratz, Segretti's lapdog:

From Beschloss, The Crisis Years, pgs 652-653:

"Ngo Dinh Nhu warned South Vietnamese generals in August that the Limited Test Ban might foretell wholesale American 'appeasement' of communism and that Saigon must be ready to stand alone.... On Monday morning at the White House, Kennedy was astonished when McNamara, McCone, and Taylor all loudly objected to the sending of the cable. Taylor charged that an 'anti-Diem group centered in State' had exploited the absence of principal officials to send out a message that would otherwise have never been approved.... Robert Kennedy noted that after what he called 'that famous weekend,' Harriman seemed to age ten years.

Kennedy later told Charles Bartlett, 'My God, my government's coming apart!' Robert Kennedy recalled that week as 'the only time, really, in three years that the government was broken in two in a disturbing way.' He later said, 'Diem was corrupt and a bad leader...but we inherited him.' He thought it bad policy to 'replace somebody we don't like with somebody we do because it would just make every other country as can be that we were running coups in and out.'

As I have stated almost ad nauseum, Nixon wouldn't have needed to give E. Howard Hunt a White House office and exacto knife to rewrite the history of that affair to blame Kennedy if the truth was sufficiently damning. Diem and Nhu were negotiating with Ho, which was to JFK's favor, given the hope that the Vietnamese leadership could be set up to ask us to leave. It was classic Kennedy cleverness.

As Shanet said: "In the context of Tim Carroll's onrunning debate on Cuba and the WBOPThing, Diem is part of Charles Colson's Dirty Tricks laboratory for Nixon [as supposedly was Tim Gratz]. Howard Hunt and Charles Colson actively forged State Department 1963 memoranda and telegrams to place Diem's murder directly on Kennedy. So Diem is part of the thread.

Leave out the pompous presumptuousness of your arguments and I won't have to continue to use such personal characterizations.

Tim Carroll

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Tim, I have no idea what Hunt was trying to do to forge documents re the overthrow of Diem. First, Kennedy was clearly responsible. As you said above, in late August 1963 the State Dept (probably without JFK's) consent sent out a cable endorsing a coup against Diem. The military and JFK's own brother argued vigorously against the coup, but for two months JFK did nothing to rescind the State Dept cable. In the meantime, Lodge continued to meet with the generals plotting the coup. It cannot, I submit, get much clearer than that. It is not simply a question of JFK's vicarious responsibility for the actions of the people in his State Dept. He had personal knowledge of the cable and plenty of opportunity to reverse it.

Second, what was Hunt going to do with the forged document anyway? Use it to try to solidify the history of White House involvement in the coup? Use it against Ted Kennedy? That whole thing makes no logical sense.

Calling me "Segretti's lapdog" really goes too far! You know that I was (apparently, anyway) the only person approached by Segretti who not only refused to get involved in his dirty tricks and espionage stuff who but also took affirmative steps to try to stop him. I was reluctant to post the Segretti story because it has no bearing to our discussions but you have now forced the issue. The Segretti story, I think, demonstrates the maturity of my political judgment even when I was a college student. Since I had previously described this to you (by private e-mail) the members of this Forum can decide whether or not your "Segretti's lapdog" remark was a false characterization.

And your post above STILL fails to show any connection between the coup against Diem and the Kennedy assassination.

Edited December 16, 2004 by Tim Gratz