A Military Takeover Of The United States?

[Stan Wilbourne]

Found online:

KRUSCHEV REMEMBERS page 551-552:

Nikita Kruschev quotes the report of his Foreign Minister Anatoly Dobrynin who met with Robert Kennedy in Washington during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

"Robert Kennedy looked exhausted. One could see from his eyes that he had not slept for days. He himself said he had not been home in six days and nights."

Quoting RFK:

"The President is in a grave situation and he does not know how to get out of it. We are under very severe stress. In fact we are under pressure from our military to use force in Cuba..."

"..Even though the President is very much against starting a war over Cuba, an irreversible chain of events could occur against his will.

That is why the president is appealing directly to Chairman Kruschev for his help in liquidating this conflict. If the situation continues much longer, the President is

not sure that the military will not overthrow him and seize power. The American Army could get out of control."

Then Kruschev writes:

"I hadn't overlooked this possibility.We knew that Kennedy was a young President and the security of the United States was indeed threatened. For some time we had felt there was a danger that the President would lose control of his military, and now he was admitting this to us himself."

----------------------------------------

And, in Arthur Krock's New York Times column that appeared October 3, 1963, just a few weeks before Kennedy was to be murdered, there is this interesting note attributed to Richard Starnes of Scripps-Howard (dateline: Saigon):

"ACCORDING TO A HIGH UNITED STATES SOURCE HERE, TWICE THE C. I. A. FLATLY REFUSED TO CARRY OUT INSTRUCTIONS FROM AMBASSADOR HENRY CABOT LODGE [AND] IN ONE INSTANCE FRUSTRATED A PLAN OF ACTION MR. LODGE BROUGHT FROM WASHINGTON BECAUSE THE AGENCY DISAGREED WITH IT."

Strauss goes on to quote a "very high American official who has spent much of his life in the service of democracy":

THE C. I. A.'S GROWTH WAS "LIKENED TO A MALIGNANCY" WHICH THE "VERY HIGH OFFICIAL WAS NOT SURE EVEN THE WHITE HOUSE COULD CONTROL"ANY LONGER." "IF THE UNITED STATES EVER EXPERIENCES [AN ATTEMPT AT A COUP TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT] IT WILL COM FROM THE C. I. A. AND NOT THE PENTAGON." THE AGENCY "REPRESENTS A TREMENDOUS POWER AND TOTAL UNACCOUNTABILITY TO ANYONE."

Maxwell Taylor was in Vietnam at the time of this story.

If the quotes are from Taylor as some believe, then we have the Attorney General and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs both referring to a takeover of the government by either the military (in RFK's case) or the CIA (in Taylor's case) during John Kennedy's presidency.

If the military did decide to "overthrow and seize power" of the JFK presidency, how would they have done it?

And, if these quotes did come from Taylor why did he stress that if the US was to experience a coup to overthrow the government "it will come from the CIA and not the Pentagon" to a nationally syndicated reporter? Would the reference to Lodge have any meaning? And, would the timing be at all significant?

Interesting, no?

[John Simkin]

Soviet files released in 1995 show that Robert Kennedy sent an emissary to Moscow on 29th November, 1963. His name was William Walton, an artist and friend of the Kennedys. Walton spoke to Georgi Bolshakov, a man who had been involved in secret negotiations with John F. Kennedy during and after the Cuban Missile Crisis. According to these files Walton told Bolshakov that RFK believed that a major political conspiracy was behind JFK’s murder.

RFK claimed that his brother had made a terrible mistake in appointing LBJ as vice president. Walton said the RFK feared that LBJ would try to damage relations between the US and the Soviet Union. He urged the Soviet Union to remain resolute during the regime of LBJ. Walton told Bolshakov that RFK would be a candidate for the presidency in 1968 and if victorious would “implement John F. Kennedy’s vision”.

This information appears in One Hell of A Gamble: The Secret History of the Cuban Missile Crisis; Krushchev, Castro & Kennedy 1958-1964 by Aleksander Fursenko & Timothy Naftali (1997).

[Shanet Clark]

This material supports my theory, not only in its general content

"what Bobby said" but also by the implications of the back channel.

In other words, Kruschev, the KGB and probably the US joint agencies

had prior knowledge of all this and circulated memos concerning

these security violations, lapses, breaches, what have you.

When Americans in the Cold War even communicated with Soviets,

the REACTION was often greater than the INITIAL ACTION.

[Dawn Meredith]

This material supports my theory, not only in its general content

"what Bobby said" but also by the implications of the back channel.

In other words, Kruschev, the KGB and probably the US joint agencies

had prior knowledge of all this and circulated memos concerning

these security violations, lapses, breaches, what have you.

When Americans in the Cold War even communicated with Soviets,

the REACTION was often greater than the INITIAL ACTION.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_____________________

Great info in this thread. The truth is out there and is emerging.

Dawn

[Jim Root]

Stan

It is my contention that the conspirators had already made the decission to assassinate the President no later than June of 1963. I also believe that Taylor may have been one of the two primary decission makers in this event.

Deflecting quilt to the CIA would be, perhaps, a natural thing for the conspirators to attempt and may well have been part of the plan for the coverup. It is my contention that Oswald's attempt to contact "John Hurt," while in captivity for the assassination, forced the CIA to fall into line with the coup.

If Oswald's trip to the Soviet Union had in fact been a CIA counter intelligence operation, it would be impossible for the CIA to explain how one of there own (whose movements they were monitoring) assassinated the President and then attempted to contact an NSA employee while in custody.

Thoughts.....

Jim Root

[Cliff Varnell]

Found online:

KRUSCHEV REMEMBERS page 551-552:

Nikita Kruschev quotes the report of his Foreign Minister Anatoly Dobrynin who met with Robert Kennedy in Washington during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

"Robert Kennedy looked exhausted. One could see from his eyes that he had not slept for days. He himself said he had not been home in six days and nights."

Quoting RFK:

"The President is in a grave situation and he does not know how to get out of it. We are under very severe stress. In fact we are under pressure from our military to use force in Cuba..."

"..Even though the President is very much against starting a war over Cuba, an irreversible chain of events could occur against his will.

That is why the president is appealing directly to Chairman Kruschev for his help in liquidating this conflict. If the situation continues much longer, the President is

not sure that the military will not overthrow him and seize power. The American Army could get out of control."

Then Kruschev writes:

"I hadn't overlooked this possibility.We knew that Kennedy was a young President and the security of the United States was indeed threatened. For some time we had felt there was a danger that the President would lose control of his military, and now he was admitting this to us himself."

----------------------------------------

And, in Arthur Krock's New York Times column that appeared October 3, 1963, just a few weeks before Kennedy was to be murdered, there is this interesting note attributed to Richard Starnes of Scripps-Howard (dateline: Saigon):

"ACCORDING TO A HIGH UNITED STATES SOURCE HERE, TWICE THE C. I. A. FLATLY REFUSED TO CARRY OUT INSTRUCTIONS FROM AMBASSADOR HENRY CABOT LODGE [AND] IN ONE INSTANCE FRUSTRATED A PLAN OF ACTION MR. LODGE BROUGHT FROM WASHINGTON BECAUSE THE AGENCY DISAGREED WITH IT."

Strauss goes on to quote a "very high American official who has spent much of his life in the service of democracy":

THE C. I. A.'S GROWTH WAS "LIKENED TO A MALIGNANCY" WHICH THE "VERY HIGH OFFICIAL WAS NOT SURE EVEN THE WHITE HOUSE COULD CONTROL"ANY LONGER." "IF THE UNITED STATES EVER EXPERIENCES [AN ATTEMPT AT A COUP TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT] IT WILL COM FROM THE C. I. A. AND NOT THE PENTAGON." THE AGENCY "REPRESENTS A TREMENDOUS POWER AND TOTAL UNACCOUNTABILITY TO ANYONE."

Maxwell Taylor was in Vietnam at the time of this story.

If the quotes are from Taylor as some believe,

I promoted this view for years.

I was wrong.

When one reads the original Starnes dispatch it is clear that those quotes

came from a variety of sources within the US military command in Vietnam,

the US Embassy in Saigon, and, Arthur Krock speculated, the United States

Information Agency.

The money quote was originally attributed to a "US official":

IF THE UNITED STATES EVER EXPERIENCES A '7 DAYS IN MAY' IT WILL COME FROM

THE C. I. A. AND NOT THE PENTAGON

I don't think this came from a military man, given it's context in the

original Starnes article.

The Taylor-leaked-forewarning scenario was My Pet Theory.

And, like Tony Soprano, I know what it's like to lose a pet...

[Myra Bronstein]

This material supports my theory, not only in its general content

"what Bobby said" but also by the implications of the back channel.

In other words, Kruschev, the KGB and probably the US joint agencies

had prior knowledge of all this and circulated memos concerning

these security violations, lapses, breaches, what have you.

When Americans in the Cold War even communicated with Soviets,

the REACTION was often greater than the INITIAL ACTION.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_____________________

Great info in this thread. The truth is out there and is emerging.

Dawn

I was just about to post this exact sentiment.

Thanks Stan. I knew about the Krock article but not about either of the RFK blurbs you posted. Great work.

And now I have yet another book to read: One Hell of a Gamble.

The conflicting forecasts of CIA vs Military perps is confusing though. Could the explanation be as simple as the gradual emergence of knowledge about the enemy(ies) within, or as complex as misdirection from one of the two conflicting sources?

[Myra Bronstein]

Stan

It is my contention that the conspirators had already made the decission to assassinate the President no later than June of 1963. I also believe that Taylor may have been one of the two primary decission makers in this event.

Deflecting quilt to the CIA would be, perhaps, a natural thing for the conspirators to attempt and may well have been part of the plan for the coverup. It is my contention that Oswald's attempt to contact "John Hurt," while in captivity for the assassination, forced the CIA to fall into line with the coup.

If Oswald's trip to the Soviet Union had in fact been a CIA counter intelligence operation, it would be impossible for the CIA to explain how one of there own (whose movements they were monitoring) assassinated the President and then attempted to contact an NSA employee while in custody.

Thoughts.....

Jim Root

It's good to consider alternative explanations so that I don't get tunnel vision, given my certainty that the CIA was in charge.

If nothing else I shouldn't downplay the role of military "intelligence" in the murder.

But, Jim, how do you reconcile your thoughts with the evidence that seems to point to the CIA like a flashing neon sign?

Like the fact that the mayor of Dallas (Earle?) was the brother of (Charles) Cabell--the Deputy Director of the CIA who was fired by the President. And the many photos of CIA thugs (or twins) in Dealey Plaza (and the Ambassador Hotel in 1968):

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP/ (Hey, it moved.)

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/6169006.stm

[Michael Hogan]

duplicate post deleted. Somehow lost the other one now....sigh.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Michael Hogan

[Jim Root]

Myra

For over a decade my research line has been Major General Edwin Anderson Walker. I invite you to read my posts from the last several years and will be happy to answer any questions about where I have matriculated to and from.

My three main characters, McCloy, Taylor and Walker were already working together by 1944 and seem to have remained together in some form up to the assassination. This dispite an attempt by McCloy to distance himself from (or communicate with) Walker in June of 1963.

As for the CIA/NSA/Military Intelligence puzzle, it is my belief they are all tied together while maintaining their own identity, a "holy trinity" of sorts with "somebody" who coordinates the whole. I have made the assumption, not without a great deal of thought and backround information, that John J. McCloy may have been that "somebody."

The British system of intelligence, which Henry Stimson tasked McCloy to mirror while revamping American Intelligence in the months preceeding WWII, had, at the top ,a person referred to as "C." It is my contention that General McCloy became that person in US Intelligence. This would make McCloy the one man that would have access to all the different parts of this "holy trinity" and would be the one person who would coordinate the various elements or cells of intelligence. For example we know know that the development of the Atomic Bomb and the distribution of the Magic Intercepts, two of the most important secrets of the WWII both were controlled by McCloy.

This control would begin with the decission to place the OSS under the direction of the War Department (McCloy) during WWII and would continue, I believe, with the National Security Act of 1947(?). Eisenhower was great at taking military developments and putting them under the control of civilian agencies. An example of this was the creation of NASA by taking the successful Army Ballistic Missle program and folding it into NASA (Eisenhower didn't want former Nazi's leading our space program without a civilian cover). I believe the same is true for our intelligence agencies. We don't want the military spying on our own citizens, etc.

If this fish bowl holds any water the big fish would be McCloy who, by the way, was well positioned within the Warren Commission to control the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald. Of the commissioners, Dulles, Cooper and Warren himself had all been directly involved with McCloy for years and were vested to McCloy. A connection between McCloy and Russell is not difficult to make as well.

If nothing else, McCloy was a very powerful man in the United Stated in 1963. The question is, "was McCloy the most powerful man in the United States?"

Jim Root

[Guest John Woods]

There have been rumors over the last few years, that the DOD

had drawn up plans to use Army troops to put down any uprised

following the assassination. The question is, were these troops already

in the air prior to the assassination? The code name given was "Operation

Big Lift" which I have on 16mm footage. According to the DOD, this

operation was to send US troops over to Germany.

johnw

[Chuck Robbins]

Soviet files released in 1995 show that Robert Kennedy sent an emissary to Moscow on 29th November, 1963. His name was William Walton, an artist and friend of the Kennedys. Walton spoke to Georgi Bolshakov, a man who had been involved in secret negotiations with John F. Kennedy during and after the Cuban Missile Crisis. According to these files Walton told Bolshakov that RFK believed that a major political conspiracy was behind JFK’s murder.

RFK claimed that his brother had made a terrible mistake in appointing LBJ as vice president. Walton said the RFK feared that LBJ would try to damage relations between the US and the Soviet Union. He urged the Soviet Union to remain resolute during the regime of LBJ. Walton told Bolshakov that RFK would be a candidate for the presidency in 1968 and if victorious would “implement John F. Kennedy’s vision”.

This information appears in One Hell of A Gamble: The Secret History of the Cuban Missile Crisis; Krushchev, Castro & Kennedy 1958-1964 by Aleksander Fursenko & Timothy Naftali (1997).

RFK must have been one very brave man.

He had to know his life was in grave danger from the forces he felt were behind his brother's murder. He ran despite his knowing

that he would very likely never live to take the office. I was 9 years old when RFK was murdered and the memories are still very clear.

America was shattered emotionally and we, as a people, did nothing but wring our hands and ask "how could this happen?".

We preferred to believe that one young man, acting alone, was able to snuff out the lives of our champions rather than face the possibility that some group had been actively killing off the peace-seeking politicians in this country.

No wonder Ted is content to only work in Congress. It's a reasonable compromise. He is still working to stem the tide, that claimed the lives of his brothers, without putting his own life at risk.

The U. S. military, in a sense, is the largest corporation in the world. It comes complete with it's own court and is, in essence, a dictatorship. Orders, when given, must be followed...or suffer the consequences.

This is a very scary subject to even speak of in public. We are determined to get to the bottom of this subject, but, the closer we get, the more danger we expose ourselves to.

We should draw as much attention as possible to our efforts in order to help keep the wolves at bay. They have the power to murder a President and get away with it. Would they hesitate to do away with us if, or when, they get tired of toying with us?

[Chuck Robbins]

repeat post.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Chuck Robbins

[John Dolva]

Some very interesting points you make here

"We preferred to believe that one young man, acting alone, was able to snuff out the lives of our champions rather than face the possibility that some group had been actively killing off the peace-seeking politicians in this country." - purpose accomplished.

The idea of many of his enemies was precicely that, 'democracy' is not for/of/by the people. It's a con within which corporate fascism exists.

"This is a very scary subject to even speak of in public. We are determined to get to the bottom of this subject, but, the closer we get, the more danger we expose ourselves to."

This is an age old problem. 'Divide and rule.' The solution is as usual 'Unity'. Kennedy sought a unity of sorts. As researchers we not only honor him by finding out, and learning and sharing what we learn, with regrds to 'whodunnit' but also by emulating the spirit of him and people like him. We aren't going to solve the basic problems today or tomorrow as it wasn't solved in any of the other major events of human history. But it defiitely will never be solved without some unity,sharing,co-operation, and not least, self education and development of judice, not pre-judice, through the study of the facts, and finding the courage to draw the right conclusions through the right thinking, and acting on them.

RFK was a very intelligent and able man, but I think he was naive. There will be another like him. When that person comes, he/she needs to be recognised, surrounded, and shepherded to wherever that will take us as individuals.

The fact that much still is covert and that forums like these are possible is a sign that 'they' have far from 'won'.

from the JFK script:

"Jim Garrison: I don't, I can't... I can't believe they killed him because he wanted to change things. In our time. In our country.

X: Well they've been doing it all through history. Kings are killed, Mr. Garrison, politics is power, nothing more! Oh, don't take my word for it, don't believe me. Do your own work, your own thinking.

Jim Garrison: I can't. The size of this is... beyond me. Testify?

X: Me?

Jim Garrison: Testify.

X: Ha ha. No chance in hell. No, I'd be arrested and gagged, maybe sent to an institution, maybe worse, you too. Now I can give you the background, but you have to find the foreground, the little things. Keep digging. Remember, you're the only person to bring a trial in the murder of John Kennedy. That's important, it's historic.

Jim Garrison: I haven't yet. I don't have much of a case.

X: You don't have a choice anymore. You've become a significant threat to the national security structure. They would have killed you already but you got a lot of light on you. Instead they're trying to destroy your credibility. They already have in many circles in this town. Be honest, your only chance is to come up with a case. Something, anything. Make arrests, stir the xxxx storm, hope to reach a point of critical mass that'll start a chain reaction of people coming forward, then the government will crack. Remember, fundamentally, people are suckers for the truth - and the truth is on your side, Bubba. I just hope you get a break."

_____________________________________

"Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

[John Dolva]

Some very interesting points you make here

"We preferred to believe that one young man, acting alone, was able to snuff out the lives of our champions rather than face the possibility that some group had been actively killing off the peace-seeking politicians in this country." - purpose accomplished.

The idea of many of his enemies was precicely that, 'democracy' is not for/of/by the people. It's a con within which corporate fascism exists.

"This is a very scary subject to even speak of in public. We are determined to get to the bottom of this subject, but, the closer we get, the more danger we expose ourselves to."

This is an age old problem. 'Divide and rule.' The solution is as usual 'Unity'. Kennedy sought a unity of sorts. As researchers we not only honor him by finding out, and learning and sharing what we learn, with regrds to 'whodunnit' but also by emulating the spirit of him and people like him. We aren't going to solve the basic problems today or tomorrow as it wasn't solved in any of the other major events of human history. But it defiitely will never be solved without some unity,sharing,co-operation, and not least, self education and development of judice, not pre-judice, through the study of the facts, and finding the courage to draw the right conclusions through the right thinking, and acting on them.

RFK was a very intelligent and able man, but I think he was naive. There will be another like him. When that person comes, he/she needs to be recognised, surrounded, and shepherded to wherever that will take us as individuals.

The fact that much still is covert and that forums like these are possible is a sign that 'they' have far from 'won'.

from the JFK script:

"Jim Garrison: I don't, I can't... I can't believe they killed him because he wanted to change things. In our time. In our country.

X: Well they've been doing it all through history. Kings are killed, Mr. Garrison, politics is power, nothing more! Oh, don't take my word for it, don't believe me. Do your own work, your own thinking.

Jim Garrison: I can't. The size of this is... beyond me. Testify?

X: Me?

Jim Garrison: Testify.

X: Ha ha. No chance in hell. No, I'd be arrested and gagged, maybe sent to an institution, maybe worse, you too. Now I can give you the background, but you have to find the foreground, the little things. Keep digging. Remember, you're the only person to bring a trial in the murder of John Kennedy. That's important, it's historic.

Jim Garrison: I haven't yet. I don't have much of a case.

X: You don't have a choice anymore. You've become a significant threat to the national security structure. They would have killed you already but you got a lot of light on you. Instead they're trying to destroy your credibility. They already have in many circles in this town. Be honest, your only chance is to come up with a case. Something, anything. Make arrests, stir the xxxx storm, hope to reach a point of critical mass that'll start a chain reaction of people coming forward, then the government will crack. Remember, fundamentally, people are suckers for the truth - and the truth is on your side, Bubba. I just hope you get a break."

_____________________________________

"Let justice be done though the heavens fall."