The Thresher Incident

[Steve Thomas]

I spent some time on this subject a while back. Coincidentally, the Thresher went down on the same day that someone took a potshot at General Edwin Walker.

I tried to determine if the initials JFCOTT were an acronym for something. I didn't come up with anything.

I forgot to mention that there are various documents relating to Mr. Bray and the Thresher incident in the DPD Archives.

They can be found in Box 8, Folder# 7, Item# 1

Box 13, Folder# 5, Item# 8

and Box 18, Folder# 5, Item# 1

Steve Thomas

[Shanet Clark]

Oswald, if I remember correctly, had no real motive to shoot Kennedy, but had sent Connally an angry letter concerning the Navy/Marines. This all seems to be part of the "Oswald was aiming at Connally" angle. If he was at the window with a gun, it is possible he shot Connally twice (non-fatally) while others shot the President....but John is right, the Thresher angle looks like a classic DISINFO op.

I hope some Members will read the FAIRPLAY article about Thresher, George Wing and the Paines (on the Bartholomew link) and post some comments about it....it is puzzling and revealing at the same time.........

{ James, what is your take on the George Wing / Rambler material?

I am not that familiar with this strange series of events.......}

[Steve Thomas]

Shanet,

  This all seems to be part of the "Oswald was aiming at Connally" angle.

Carroll Jarnagin, Dallas attorney, told the FBI that on October 4, 1963, he was in the Carousel Club and overheard Ruby talking to a man named 'H.L. Lee' about plans to kill the governor of Texas."

This is at 26H257 under CE2821

He was given an 11 question polygraph by the Dallas Police and flunked 10 out of the 11 questions. The only answer he got right was, "Were you drunk at the time?"

His polygraph interview can be found in the DPD Archives at Box 13, Folder# 4, Item# 15.

Steve Thomas

[James Richards]

James, what is your take on the George Wing / Rambler material?

I am not that familiar with this strange series of events. (Shanet Clark)

Hi Shanet,

It seems that the whole piece has been really well researched but I must admit that it has me at a loss. At the end of the day, I am not sure who George Wing really was. Was he a recruiter? Was he a field operative? Nothing seems to have been settled. He is however one of the more enigmatic characters connected to the assassination.

The possibility was raised that Wing trained with the anti-Castro forces on No Name Key. I do not believe this to be true. Having said that, the individual who was being looked at as being Wing is interesting also. I posted the image here some time back asking Tosh Plumlee if he knew his identity. Tosh said he knew who it was but refused to name him.

We can also add the other Ramblers around at the time. Howard K. Davis supposedly owned one as did Manuel Orcaberrio who ran the Dallas chapter of Alpha 66. Let's not forget Ruth Paine also.

As John Lennon was heard to say, "Strange days indeed, most peculiar mama."

James

[Shanet Clark]

James, It is all very weird and spooky.

But the Bartholomew material makes it pretty clear that Wing was CIA.

(My grandmother had a Rambler, she went through four clutches on the three speed transmission. Cheapest domestic vehicle available at that time I believe, like a Ford Escort, pretty easy to blend into traffic.)

Can somebody who has read more than me on this give us a thumbnail on the Wing/Rambler/coded message story?

I am sure a lot of people are even more in the dark than I am on WING....

Edited February 16, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Tim Gratz]

Shanet wrote:

My grandmother had a Rambler, she went through four clutches on the three speed transmission. Cheapest domestic vehicle available at that time I believe...)

What master conspirator would decide to use a cheap mail order rifle to kill the President and then plan an escape in a RAMBLER of all cars? I mean, this does not seem like the CIA, the KGB or the Mafia!

Strange indeed!

Edited February 16, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Shanet Clark]

Shanet wrote:

My grandmother had a Rambler, she went through four clutches on the three speed transmission. Cheapest domestic vehicle available at that time I believe...)

What master conspirator would decide to use a cheap mail order rifle to kill the President and then plan an escape in a RAMBLER of all cars?

Strange indeed!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obviously the cheap mail order rifle didn't do all the damage down range,

but the Rambler itself was very dependable....

I guess you think that they got away in the MOSKVITCH 410 ?

[Tim Gratz]

Shanet, you gave me a good laugh!

However, had they in fact used a Russian-made car with Soviet Union license plates, it would have been a dead give-away! (Same reason they had to get rid of all of their Cuban cigars!)

Edited February 16, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Robert Howard]

John,

One possible strategy of the conspirators would be to suggest that JFK was killed by accident. That the real target was John Connally. This seems to me to have all the signs of a disinformation campaign.

FWIW

Well, for some reason the software is not allowing me to upload this, but if you go to Box 1, Folder# 3, Item# 26 of the DPD Archives:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

There is a memo there from Detective B.M. Waters to Deputy Chief Lunday concerning a 1966 phone call from a guy named James Hacker in Los Angeles. He said that Oswald was paid by Jack Ruby to kill Connally.

What was interesting to me is the amount of time he spent on the phone with two Detectives and FBI Agent Bob Gemberling.

I spent some time on this subject a shile back. Coincidentally, the Thresher went down on the same day that someone took a potshot at General Edwin Walker.

I tried to determine if the initials JFCOTT were an acronym for something. I didn't come up with anything.

Steve Thomas

Coincidentally, the Thresher went down on the same day that someone took a potshot at General Edwin Walker.

If one goes to the Dallas City Hall Website under JFK Collection, there is some documentation in relation to the 'Justice For the Crew of the Thresher,' allegations.

This is the main URL

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/

Go to Box 18, and the documents are listed under

Box 18, Folder 5

1. Handbill, by Edward F. Bray. Handbill concerning the Warren Commission and Justice for the Crew of the Thresher, (Original Signed), 03/15/65. 00003740 3 pages 18 05 001 3740-001.gif 3740-002.gif 3740-003.gif

I decided to update this thread for two reasons.

1. I have been studying this story recently and after looking at it have decided 'if it is credible' (key point) that it was a 'back-up story' to the now-infamous assertions that Lee Harvey Oswald was a 'lone-nut Communist.' (If you disagree read another post and don't read anymore please)

2. In light of an old story that COULD be related but is itself controversial and that is the 'allegations of Carrol Jarnagin,' Jarnagin was a Dallas attorney who testified before the Warren Commission asserting that he had overheard a conversation at Ruby's Carousel Club on October 4, 1963 'between Ruby and a man who he alleged was Lee Harvey Oswald, see (W.C. Vol 26 Exhibit 2821)

The difficulty gauging Jarnagin's assertions (I will be forthright, in pointing out that he admitted to the Warren Commission he "had a drinking problem" and that the Commission Exhibit states that while he was listening to the conversation that "he was talking to Robin Hood,") is that in my opinion the Commission cannot be trusted as having the 'final say' on matters regarding the issue of conspiracy because of the numerous accounts of either 'altered testimony, badgering witnesses when they did not conform their testimony to the lone-nut version of Lee Harvey Oswald that was the foundation of the Commissions conclusions, etc...) Having said all that I discovered a 'transcript' of the conversation from Penn Jones Forgive my Grief Vol 1. page 54 which 'may be more detailed and lengthy' than what was contained in the WC Report.'

In the transcript Ruby talks to Oswald 'about the job' half the money now and the other half later, as the conversation unfolds the key phrase in relation to the preceeding information posted is:

"Are you sure that you can do the job without hitting anybody but the Governor"

Jarnagin's story has been dismissed for the most part, Oswald's 'official' whereabouts on October 4, 1963 are that he had just returned to the United States from Mexico City.

For more information see Crossfire - Jim Marrs pages 409-411

Final Comment: As with many other issues concerning events, chronology and credibility, Oswald's activities in the 30 day period prior to the assassination are still disputed and debated. I personally believe that the allegations of Oswald being in Austin and Houston prior to the assassination are true. I even have certain misgivings about the 'Jarnagin allegations' as I believe that Oswald and Ruby knew each other prior to October 4, but I am posting this 'for the record' and not to assert my own 'version of event's.' I have the pages copied from Forgive My Grief but did not put it on this post because it is incredibly long, I will do so if John Simkin, or members of the Forum feel it would be beneficial.

Edited December 10, 2005 by Robert Howard

[James Richards]

For those who are interested, here is a list of the crew that went down with the Thresher.

FWIW.

James

[William Kelly]

During the second COPA organizational conference, at the Chinatown Holiday Inn, I shared a room with Dennis Bartholowmew, and was very impressed with his research on the Rambler.

Dennis actually purchased the car, and if we can get a grand jury going, the Rambler will be one of the first items to be subpoened and given a thorough shakedown for evidence.

In addition, Formet, the Ohio researcher who came up with the microfilm of the official court records of the Bray v. Bendix trial, says that he sent the microfilm to Gordon Winslow in Florida, if anybody wants to follow up on that.

Also, a New Orleans researcher, John Gooch, says that in his investigation of the Rosco White ONI teletype orders, he is led to beleive that the teletype maching that made them was from the Thresher.

Now I know Roscoe and Ricky White's story has been challenged, but you can't take away the fact the Roscoe's wife worked for Jack Ruby and Roscoe served in the USMC with Oswald, two established facts.

Although I haven't been in contact with Gooch in the post-Katrina world, I hope he and other researchers down there are all right.

BK

[Robert Howard]

During the second COPA organizational conference, at the Chinatown Holiday Inn, I shared a room with Dennis Bartholowmew, and was very impressed with his research on the Rambler.

Dennis actually purchased the car, and if we can get a grand jury going, the Rambler will be one of the first items to be subpoened and given a thorough shakedown for evidence.

In addition, Formet, the Ohio researcher who came up with the microfilm of the official court records of the Bray v. Bendix trial, says that he sent the microfilm to Gordon Winslow in Florida, if anybody wants to follow up on that.

Also, a New Orleans researcher, John Gooch, says that in his investigation of the Rosco White ONI teletype orders, he is led to beleive that the teletype maching that made them was from the Thresher.

Now I know Roscoe and Ricky White's story has been challenged, but you can't take away the fact the Roscoe's wife worked for Jack Ruby and Roscoe served in the USMC with Oswald, two established facts.

Although I haven't been in contact with Gooch in the post-Katrina world, I hope he and other researchers down there are all right.

BK

Thanks you James for posting the crew list.

Also, a New Orleans researcher, John Gooch, says that in his investigation of the Rosco White ONI teletype orders, he is led to beleive that the teletype maching that made them was from the Thresher.

Bill, With reference to the above, what do you make of it?

[William Kelly]

Robert,

What do I make of John Goosh's assertion that the Thresher teletype made the Roscoe White orders?

I don't know. He also said he's identified the officer who sent the orders.

I'll try to reestablish contact with John. When I was in New Orleans once, he showed me around and I've been to his home, not far from downtown.

BK

[Ron Ecker]

It seems that an important question that is lost in all this (unless I missed the answer) is, what was the outcome of the Bendix v. Bray trial? (And what became of the alleged assassination film, and what became of Bray?)

Can someone who knows Gordon Winslow (who Bill says has the microfilm of the court case) ask him how the story ended?

[Robert Howard]

It seems that an important question that is lost in all this (unless I missed the answer) is, what was the outcome of the Bendix v. Bray trial? (And what became of the alleged assassination film, and what became of Bray?)

Can someone who knows Gordon Winslow (who Bill says has the microfilm of the court case) ask him how the story ended?

Unfortunately, I do not have anything to offer regarding Gordon Winslow, but am searching other information sources, in the meantime there is this, from maryferrell.org on "Thresher" search Hull-DeMohrenschildt, interesting

THRESHER, ----- -----

Sources: CD 913, pp. 67-68; CD 1484, pp. 8-10; HSCA Vol 12, pp. 91-92; The Iconoclast, march 19026, 1976, p. 3, Vol X, No. 2; CIA 225-89, released as CIA 104-10015-10221, Lifton's pp. 107-111

Mary's

Comments: Nuclear-powered, deep-diving submarine sunk April 10, 1963, with 129 aboard. See Edward Frank BRAY. "Lt Cdr Harry Hull (housemate of George deMohrenschildt in Washington, D.C., September 1941) commander of Thresher during World War II according to Who's Who in America, 1968-1969." On page 2, paragraph 5, of CIA 225-89, Polish chauffeur told of Soviets' part in sinking of U.S. Navy nuclear submarine (see Lifton p. 110).